This is a wonderful and informative review/podcast. It was a real pleasure to listen to your voice. Now, let's get technical: These preamplifiers, integrated amplifiers, and power amplifiers are, in fact, trans-impedance devices. They usually convert a high impedance/low voltage/current from the input to a low impedance/high voltage/current to the output. Ideally is to have high impedance input and low impedance output. There is a problem with passive preamplifiers, they usually have the same input and output impedance and this is the impedance of the device, the potentiometer. This gives us a very high output impedance that can not accommodate the high impedance of the power amplifier. Usually, this impedance is 10 Kohm to 50 Kohm which is very high (unless the designer uses output transformers to lower the output impedance). Hattor Audio doesn't tell us the input and output impedance for their passive preamps. Topping Pre 90 only tells us the output impedance which is a good low figure, 20 Ohm. Artera: input 10 Kohm line (SE and XLR), output: 120 Ohm SE, 100 XLR-this is not bad, these are good, but not very low figures. Elector SPL, input: 47 Kohm SE, 20 XLR, output: 75 Ohm (SE and XLR). The input impedance is good to very good and the output impedance is also good, but considering this is a pro audio company they should have made it with a lower impedance, like Topping. Musical Fidelity M8S pre has very good figures, input impedance is 75 Kohm SE (RCA) and 150 Kohm XLR, and also good, low output impedance: 47 Ohm RCA/XLR. Michi P5S2, input impedance: 47 Kohm RCA, 100 Kohm XLR. Output impedance: 470 Ohm RCA, 100 Ohm XLR. Michi has good input impedance but the output impedance is rather high. Sugden Audio Sapphire DAP-800. Unfortunately, Sugden does not tell us the input and output impedances. PSAudio BHK, input impedance is 33kohm RCA/66kohm XLR. Output impedance: under 100ohm. The output impedance of PSAudio BHK is very good, but the input impedance is not very high. Pass Labs XP-12 has published only the input impedance which is not very high, 22 Kohm. Mola Mola, the input impedance is 100 Kohm, which is very good, but the output is rather high at 440 Ohm. It is very important that the impedance of the power amplifier is high and at least many times (100 times higher) higher than the output impedance of the preamplifier. Mola Mola boasts that their preamp has low output impedance and that the audio output is not influenced by the type of interconnect, which is not accurate. The advantage of a low impedance is that longer interconnect lengths can be used, as with balanced (XLR) connections. Low-output impedance preamps like the Topping Pre90, ElectorSPL, Musical Fidelity M8s, and PSAudio BHK are more likely to sound good with a wider variety of power amps than high-output impedance preamps.
But you're WRONG. You converted real world things into data language but you forgot you're supposed to convert data language mathematics back into real world language. You're still talking as a data robot 🤖 🙄 Come on man! Wake up! Over time, what happens??!! What did you listen too??!! Describe THAT. YES you've discovered data numbers and big words but WHAT DID YOU HEAR????? I understand what low impedance RED colour looks like. Most people DON'T. I know what high impedance RED looks like. Most people don't know what that version of RED colour looks like. Industry language IS Industry language. You must convert what you're trying to say in Industry language back into ordinary words language.
I chose an Artera, which I'm very happy with. I bought it because it was the most affordable high quality pre' with balanced outputs that I could find. I'm a musician and have a modest laptop-based home recording set up. I bought the small PMC powered monitors to use with it and found I preferred them to my ageing hi-fi speakers. Rather than replace them, I decided to use the PMCs for listening and looked for a pre' that would drive them. Did some digging and came across the Quad. It was on special offer for under £1k, which was a bonus. The smooth and slightly gentle sound of the Quad means it works very nicely with the more forthright presentation from the monitors. At under £3.5k for amplification and speakers, I don't think I could do much better for the money.
Hi Laurie, I think you’re absolutely correct. The Artera is a wonderful piece of equipment. I use one at home. The build and sound quality are superb. I think you’ve found a good solution
Great video! I’m using my Sibelius with a Bellari active preamp, very inexpensive and unbelievable quality, it synergises really well with the sound of the speakers.
@@PearlAcoustics The model is PA555, costs $249 and ships from the US. It’s a simple device with no remote, it uses one tube. I pair it with a much more expensive British end stage, which is way out of proportion with the Bellari in terms of cost. At first the sound was too bright and didn’t allow for long listening sessions, I had to add quite some vibration isolation to tame it a bit.
Excellent comparison of preamps. I have the Quad Artera Pre which is a really great preamp, sonically. It's also very quiet with a lot of gain and each of the relay selectable inputs the gain can be altered to match the other inputs. The only downside is the very necessary remote as to change settings on the preamp itself is a pain. The remote's control for volume is also critical as when pressing volume -, it's easy to change inputs. I've had two so far and the latest one is getting a bit flakey. The performance of the preamp can't be faulted imo, even the phono input is excellent.
Thank you for your kind appraisal. Thanks too for your contribution to the debate. I use the QUAD Artera (with CD) in my listening room at home, and find very good indeed. Not sure if the potential of the longevity of the CD section.
What a wonderful video..!!! (as usual). I needed this one so much and the funny thing is that I din`t know, having a list and go thru them was great. I'm pretty sure about Sugden amplification now but this video has given me a lot of to think about. Thank you.
I miss the Bang & Olufsen remotes we enjoyed in the 90s. It was simple, heavy and I could point it in any direction 90, 180 degrees away, and it just worked! Just like Molo Molo.
A pre-amplifier is A CONCEPT. MANUFACTURERS ARE NOT locked in to 1 version of the concept. You failed to mention why the power amplifiers have early faults. You didn't mention what happens over time. A race car needs to be warmed up. So you understand that concept. Obviously amplifiers can exist in cold 🥶 or hot environments. Power amplifiers have warm up stages. So if you can install a pre-amplifier you can listen to that smaller amplifier while your powerful amplifier is getting warmed up. Pre-amplifiers stretch tones and reverse amplification. They produce FLAT WIDE sound just like the room of curved mirrors will give you a distorted image to see. So a pre-amplifier sound can be improved by installing another tiny amplifier which creates a triangle sound instead of the flat stretched sound of the pre-amplifier. From zero to 3.5 hours is mostly pre-amplifier sounds and they're not accurate mathematics. They're reverse mathematics. From then on the power amplifier starts to take over and it boosts accurate mathematics. So by 5 hours in, you're listening to mostly power amplifier for the next 10 hours. Stages have been switched off or reduced in influence. Again, manufacturers can play around with the concept of a pre-amplifier. Cable companies can resist the effect of the power amplifier and delay it's time of influence. Timers and switching devices. You failed to convert your data language back into the real physical form. At what point in time did you get to the mathematical accurate sound? 1 hour in? 3 hours of continuous listening? 5 hours? 10 hours? The main amplifier must do accurate mathematics. The pre-amplifier can't. At what time does your pre-amplifier get turned off and then you listen to the accurate sound?? Again, the big accurate amplifier HAS FAULTS. They realised they could build a REVERSE amplifier thats SMALLER and it will fix the warm up faults of the main power amplifier. The flat stretched sound of the small amplifier can be fixed with 1 more miniature amplifier that fools our ears with an additional note thats triggered and fast acting which hits in the middle of the stretched sound. That's 12 hours of amplification SOLVED. NO FAULTS. You can listen for 12 hours with NO PERCEIVED FAULTS in the sounds.
Musical Fidelity is still for me the best bang for the buck I've encountered. I have that pre in my setup. Some say it's a hard edged sound, but I've never felt that way about it. Running Confidence C1 and C4 platinums and I find the pairing hard to beat.
You make a great point about the combination of the power amplifier and the speaker. I have reached a great pairing that works and just like you I am experimenting with preamplifiers. A good preamp makes a signal come to life. Bad ones eat detail and editorialise. When a preamp retains the details such as coherent ambiance, expression, inflections, timing and imaging without colourations, noise or distortion I sit up and enjoy the music. Couple those criteria with bandwidth and effortless dynamics and I just love to listen. Beyond that the mechanics, the user interface and the ergonomics have to be tolerable.
Thank you Harley, another masterful performance. I am thoroughly enjoying the Lyngdorf you recommended for me, it is so usable and a great interface to the rest of the system. I too am looking forward to your review of the Pearl Acoustics 170, single ended, vacuum tube power amplifier.
Me too @Farmick. I have the tdai 1120 with Q Acoustics concept 50 speakers. I'd like to get a tube power amp and use the Lyngdorf as a streamer/preamp when money allows - always wanted to try that tube sound. I got the Lyngdorf after viewing Harleys earlier review also.
like the song: What a difference a preamplifier makes.....only 24 hours in a day I love my Parasound 2100 preamp (with tone controls (treble/bass), balance, home theater bypass). The Parasound 200pre is the newer model with a builtin dac. For even better realistic sound, I added Cardas Clear USB ($200) cable, Cardas Parsec RCA ($300/pair). source=Apple Music lossless.
My guess is that because the remote is powered by a tiny coin cell battery, the signal has to be very weak. Hence why you need to point it directly at the receiver. Small packages will always have certain limitations. I think your idea would work with an IR signal amplifier. It beats changing the battery every week if Topping made it with a stronger signal. Most people would use that preamp on a desktop system, where it would be a problem.
Hi thanks for your comment. The strange thing is, the remote takes two 1.5v AAA batteries. My theory is that the receiver is set a little too deep into the facia and right near the edge of the screen, who knows? Thanks for your thoughts
Another excelent video. Luckily, I have no intention to buy another preamp, because I've bought mine, second-hand ,for an excelent price (new is about 5500 Eur). The preamp is the german Audio Exklusive P7S (dual mono, two separated transformers, 100% equiped with NOS tubes) and it allows to select the gain and the feedback. It sounds terrific, and for the price, it's the best I've heard so far. You've mentioned in this video that that Sugden preamp is equiped with an old Philips DAC. I've got 5 CD players at home, with different DAC chips, the majority multibit, Marantz CD40 and Marantz CD80 (TDA1541A), Revox B225 (dual TDA1540), Primare CD31 (4xPCM1704-K) and one equiped with the dCS Ring DAC (Arcam FMJ CD23T). My best sounding CD is the oldest one, the Revox B225, from 1983, with the best CD transport ever built, the CDM-0. It was been fully upgraded, with excelent capacitors, operating now in NOS mode, replaced the plastic TDA 1540 chips for the ceramic ones and other few things that elevated, even more, the very good level of the original unit. The Revox, is my reference player, because I don't know any other player around, new or old, (cost no object) that sounds even close to this superb player. Is the most analog sounding player avaiable, with the most credible and incredible midrange, that sends shivers down your spine digs every bit down to the smallest detail. I invite you to buy one (or listen to one) and try it for yourself, even without the upgrades, that I truly recommend.
@@PearlAcoustics I have no idea due to the fact that most I have not listened to,many of these, and it is system dependent, but it is an intriguing list with a wide affordability envelope, which I think many people will appreciate. It took me over three years to find the right match. for my Vandersteen fives, I ended up with Aesthetix , preamp, and a VTl power amp . I’ve heard your speakers, and they sound much better than I ever thought they would given a little driver. Some type of voodoo 🤣
Great Vid, appreciated. Have you tried a preamp with the Sugden A21 SE? Preamp to a integrated makes sense? Cause the signal will be amplified twice etc. And which of the preamps would be enhance the A21 SE? Thanks a lot and cheers.
Hi thank you for your kind comment. Unless you are employing an additional preamplifier to process the incoming signal in some way (for example, room perfect), I am not sure I see the point of adding more components and complexity to the chain. The Sugden A21SE is a very fine integrated amplifier with its own sound signature in its own right. But, like all things hifi, it can be great fun experimenting.
Thanks Harley, I enjoy your videos and candor. I hope in future to have an opportunity to hear your speakers, as they seem interesting and unique in their design and concept.
@@rtmattson7224 hi, I believe we do have someone in Dallas, if you reach out to us via our website, the team will help you. We are planning to come to Axpona but only in 2025
Hi I have emailed Pearl Acoustics a few times over the last month through their website and have not received a response. Is there a direct email I can use instead of filling out the form on the website? Thanks Bob
The Sugden it’s beautiful. It looks more like a classic pre-amplifier. I’m really not fond of the single knobs that are now in vogue. I’m using a threshold FET 10 HL.I just love the knobs. Of course it sounds wonderful too, and matches nicely with my SimAudio W5.3SE. I’ve been waiting for another one of your inclusive equipment reviews like this. Maybe you could do one on system racks. Thanks. Love your videos.
Been using the Mola Mola because I wanted the famous DAC and Phono Stage. It has a low 44Ohm impedance that runs an Octave tube amp, Bryson solid state amp, Outlaw Audio amp, and old Simaudio Moon amp without any compatibility issues. Would definitely recommend as a lifelong component. Unless it breaks, I can’t imagine replacing it.
So there is no such thing as a preamp with more than 2 channels? You don't say anywhere in your description that you are only looking at 2 channel preamps
Hi, thanks for sharing this. My mistake, but I assumed that all our listeners would be two channel HiFi enthusiasts. To what application do you apply multi-channel preamplifiers, may I ask?
@@PearlAcoustics Thanks for the reply. I am new to your channel. I have over 1,500 SACDs and roughly 35% have multichannel (> 2 channel) content. I also have many DVD-Audio and Atmos files. I use my system 90% for music and 10% for movies.
I loved your reviews, very brave to put Topping ahead of renowned brands, 6000 dollars cheaper than PS Audio, I wouldn't mind the remote control. Congratulations
Thank you! Since making the video, I took the advice if my colleague Ajay, based in London, who suggested I purchase a ‘one for all’ remote control and an ir receiver. The cost was minimal and It works a treat!
What a great list and detailed overview! Thank you for this. Love my SPL Elector. A real game changer in my system and can’t imagine ever getting rid of it 🙏🏼👍🏼
Charming as we've come to expect Mr. Lovegrove. My question: Why dont most preamps have a balance control? An essential feature for those of us with asymmetric room layouts. Wouldn't it be easy to implement with relay based volume control? Im enjoying my Musical Paradise MP701mk2 tube and capacitor rolling preamp. Check out Thomas' recent review: "Five+ preamps in one" I use the input trim pots on my Bryston amp to provide balance control;-) The Topping pre is tempting so i can use balanced outs from my Ares12th... 🎵🎶🤫🎶🎵
Thanks for your kind words. You raise a good question. Balance controls became conveniently ’out of fashion’ as a purity argument / which obviously also reduced costs. In a way, this is what my video alluded to - choosing a pre amplifier is not all about purist sound quality. That’s why I brought in the Lyngdorf because you can program balance etc, all in the digital domain. For Topping to add balance would be complex as they have already squeezed so much into their little box. Your solution seems to work for you but indeed, the balance control is so useful. The QUAD Artera Pre has a very nice set of controls, balance, bass, treble and their famous ‘tilt’ system. It’s a marvellous preamplifier and extremely good value for money as it is also beautifully made.
Good points. Maybe the balance control feature could just be implemented on the programming and improved remote control, so badly needed? Cheers Harley 🎵🎶🤔🎶🎵
My alltime favorite, as I'd the fortune to own it: 1. Soulution 725 2. Robert Koda K10 ...after that, no more tube preamp, nor Kondo or Audio Note 😅 sorry, Iknow it is far away for average, but this is for me that area when we talk about the best ever, for now!
Excellent excellent video Harley. I love a giant killer as much as anyone but the Topping is too uninteresting aesthetically for me. Sonic performance is always primary consideration but I couldn’t live with the Topping… it looks like my SKY box! I feel that my Quad 34 pre (with the 405-2 power amp) is a pretty much perfect combo for me. I’m very interested to hear more about the Pearl amp🎶🎵
On top of aesthetics, I have had two acquaintances who have had their Pre90's fail since the launch. I had a D90SE kick the bucket, as well. Longevity seems to be an issue.
Did not know this. Thanks for sharing. The two pre’s we have been trying for the last year or so, have proved faultless. Reliability is my absolute highest priority. I can’t stand junk and all the environmental damage it causes.
@@PearlAcoustics I certainly wouldn't say they are junk. I think Topping expanded production into a new product area (amps/preamps) in a very fast manner and may be having some teething issues. I'm staying away, personally (as are my friends), but I don't doubt they will get it sorted. I know ASR saw the failure of several of the LA-90 amps as well, but I've no experience with the LA-90 aside from hearing it at a show once.
Great review Harley! My own experience is that when everything else is pretty much there, your wire with gain becomes very very important. For example I am more than happy for last bit of performance for less look or lack of a remote. You kind of hint that with that 600 euro topping, you really don’t lose anything even in absolute term. I always believe is that you just cannot build a first class preamp without a very good power supply. I wonder what kind of ps they use for such a small and light box?
Thanks for your very kind appreciation. 🙏 you raise a good point about power supplies, whatever Topping use, it certainly works. It gets a little warm in operation but not hot. I guess it’s switching…
@@PearlAcoustics I forgot to mention that I really appreciate this kind of video - it is very helpful and you put things in the right context. If some people want and can spend 17 K, why not? I wish there were more "preamp"-like solutions for people like me, looking for a box that has a good DAC and room correction built in, plus maybe an Hdmi connection. The Lyngdorf might fit the bill, but a bit more choice would be great. Thanks again for the amount of work you put into those videos 🙏
The best preamp is the one you do not notice. It does not add or subtract anything from your music. What it should do is allow you to switch sources, and change your volume level. I will make an exception for tube preamps if one realizes that you are modifying your sound this way. I am a firm believer in power amps and separate preamps - integrated amps have too much internal wiring. If you do not listen to vinyl, there is no need to bother with moving magnet/moving coil stages. DACs should not be part of preamps.
@@PearlAcoustics If money were no object I would get the Mola Mola Makua. I am sure it sounds wonderful and it looks like a piece of modern art, You might as well own a conversation piece.
@@eddihaskell i can completely align with that. And the profit the company makes goes directly to the people who designed and made it. Who are now busy working on new ground breaking projects.
great conclusions Harley and I couldn't agree more. I've got a modest system (GASP: using an Onkyo RZ-50 AVR as the audio hub,) my wife and I just love having music in the home. So much so, that if we're home, there's almost certainty music playing. It's unlikely that I'll ever be investing in separates, because I have no intention of keeping up with the Jones's and cannot justify sacrificing a room in the home to a dedicated listening room. I love the sound I've got, It brings life and warmth to the home; but most of all we all listen to it every day. It's great to listen to a true student of the game give their honest opinion. Keep up the good work.
Thanks for the great vid, i have a Sugden A21 SE, have you tried to connect a preamp to a integrated? Cause then the signal gets pre amplified twice. And which one of these preamps would work well with the sugden bzw. which one could outperform the build in preamp in the A21 SE?
I feel strange that in a review of preamplifiers (which are the true heart of the system) we talk about usability, silence, construction quality, ease of use of the remote control, etc... and we don't talk about sound quality. I also find it strange that only solid state preamplifiers are considered in this review. in conclusion, considering this review completely partial and ultimately useless.
Hi, thanks for your comment. I am sorry you found it worthless. I deliberately avoided going into the sound characteristics, to keep the video to a reasonable length. The one thing I was focusing on is neutrality… trying to avoid ‘coloured’ sounding equipment. However, I did mention two units with tubes, the Hattor with its active tube unit and also the PS Audio pre, which is tube driven.
Excuse me about the tube preamplifier! I probably missed them during the listening just because my daughter was talking to me. Sorry again. But in any case I would have preferred a more detailed presentation regarding the sound quality. Thanks for your kind reply. My best regards.
@@riccardotartaro you’re very welcome. No issue at all. Describing sound is never easy, and I tend to only do that when talking about one product, or possibly comparing two, then it’s much easier to go into detail. Best wishes
Thank you for the comparison on these pre amps. I use a Vitus Class A integrated, fell in love with the smooth Class A sound ever since owning a Sugden A21A. At times of course I ask myself if a pre / power combo would improve things further… I am very surprised though regarding your statement that the Topping side by side performs pretty much on the same level than the Mola Mola. Knowing that the pre can play such an important part in a premium set up. If the $600 Topping can play at a level of a $10k pre than I would just use the pre amp in a decent DAC? Would be great if you could elaborate further. Thanks again for your time producing content on YT - loved the the Kid A episode!
Hi, thank you for your very kind comments. I am so glad you enjoyed the Kid A video. To answer your question on quality and price differences. When one goes into industrial design and manufacturing, there is always an investment in research and development, that at some point needs to be paid back. The team involved have to decide how much they expect to be paid for it. This can range from nothing, for a retired engineer, to a fortune for someone who dreams of the high life and driving around in expensive cars. (I am not saying this is the case in either example I give). All is possible, but you have to decide. Taking the Topping versus Mola Mola story, Mola Mola is about perfection, being the absolute best. They started with a blank sheet of paper, after studying how everyone else across the decades solved the challenges posed. Once their design is finished, They manufacture in very small quantities and all their components cost them much more than their volume production competitors. Making a chassis like theirs is probably their biggest single cost. Everything is in very small quantities. And hand built in the Netherlands. Topping on the other hand, set out to design and build the very best sounding preamplifier possible. They came up with absolutely no compromise design (sound wise), but from the start they are thinking in miniaturisation and container loads of products. If you can make a component smaller, without impacting performance, you save on material costs, casings, packaging, shipping, etc etc. Every square inch or millimeter saved makes a big difference in the final equation. They are looking to develop chassis, circuit board, power supplies and components that can be used across a multiple of devices and even brands. But always with a ‘no compromise on sound quality’ as a goal. They are out to beat the best and keep products cheap, and small so they can sell to everyone. Then they sell direct, or via on line retailers that take the tiniest Olof margins. A typical high-end retailer will want at least a tines 2 mark up. Then the distributor needs their 20-30% margin. Add all this together and you very quickly arrive at the high prices we see. The retailers need their margins. Buying up front, taking risks, owning large expensive showrooms with staff to pay, costs a fortune. So the Topping is fantastic value. But it does not have the charm or streamlined operation in its user interface. It has no software application that needs constant upgrading. It also has its limitations (like its remote control) - but adapting that would cost them a fortune… because of the numbers involved. I hope this makes some sense? Enjoy the music
A hint: The Topping remote is the same one used on my inexpensive E30 DAC (which I use as a preamp…It drives my power amp perfectly, and cost only $150 several years ago). I discovered that the LED’s in the remote were not aligned properly with the direction you think you are pointing it. Unsoldering and resoldering the diode into correct aligned position solved the problem.
That MICHI P5 S is simply in its own stratosphere! It’s tremendously equipped, very high performance, and simply DROP-DEAD Gorgeous! I cannot wait to get my hands on one! (an excellent presentation as always, and thank you).🌹
I am totally with you about SPL. I started with the Phonitor. It was so detailled and dynamic, but also with extremly silent background. Fantastic value for the money. So, now the Elector (or Director) and Phonos will follow.
I don't have a fortune to spend on audio, so my whole setup is either DIY or preowned . I'm using a bi-amp open baffle system with four 10 inch bass drivers on the bottom, and a pair of 3.5 inch coral holy baskets up top. A couple of weeks ago, I purchased an Emotive audio [ NOT EMOTIVA] Sira preamp built in 2004 that retailed for $4800. It has since been upgraded the the best V Caps and VH audio silver input wires. It operates with 18 tubes. It's a beautiful piece of equipment. You can still buy them new, as they are built to order in upstate PA. for around $8000. I can't even begin to describe the improvement in the sound. Much more holographic image in the soundstage, and hearing more decay at the end of a guitar note. This preamp has got me to a place that has me completely satisfied with my system. Now all I have to do is listen.
The high priced audio racket began with Mark Levinson and Bill Johnson. When they began charging far more than the competition in the early 70s. Of course, this pales in comparison to today’s utterly stupid prices. When audio companies saw people were paying 10 and 20k for a set of interconnects, they got the green light to go ahead with the automotive type pricing. Cars actually look cheaper in comparison to 30 and 60k amps and preamps. Thank goodness for China manufacturing or we ,the poor segment would be out
Unless you NEED a Turntable input - How is ANY pre-amplifier better than a simple DIY stepped duel resistor volume control ? [ as Less interference with the signal is always BETTER ] with lets say gold plated contacts ( as i'm willing to stretch my budget to £20 ) simply connect your stepped dual resistor volume control between your 2V RMS source ( i.e CD, DAC, streamer, tuner etc ) and your power amp. Same principal as the £1400 Hattor, but £20 DIY is better as the Hattor has power going into it, which is going to interfere and alter the sound.
Ive had the Quad Artea pre and power amps for a couple of years. Battle ship build and sounds superb. A bargain at the price and will probably outlast me.
I'm currently hunting for preamp. The Elector caught my attention but I read that it has VERY low gain and needs to be carefully matched. The Artera also looks interesting but haven't heard Quad gear since the grey and orange days when I found it to be rather soft in the bass. At the time I owned mostly Threshold gear so I suppose I was spoiled. A used SL-10 like the one I owned is still selling for about $1500 44 years later, in very average condition I must say. It must have been as good as I remember it.
Your experience with the Topping remote sounds like my experience with my new cable box's remote; I have to point it at just the right angle. That can be frustrating. The Musical Fidelity and Michi have plenty of inputs; I like that.
Thanks Harley. I have a completely different perspective of preamps. Yes, I want them to be quiet and versatile but I also want them to be musical. I don't want DAC's , I just want preamplification. DAC chips get better everyday, why should I pay for one in a preamp? This is the same thing that's happening in test equipment today, China is beating the pants off the big guys like Keysight with 12 bit scopes for under $1k US. How are they doing it? With the new chips coming out everyday, that's why you have a Topping that sounds better than a PS which has never impressed me BTW, sorry Paul. My favorite power amps are class D because class D is the cleanest most accurate amp you can buy, and they are relatively inexpensive, ask Bruno Putzeys. Make the power amp the neutral base and build from there. So if you have a power amp that's as close to dead neutral as possible you can contour the preamp to the sound you like and this is where the tubes come in, I build tube preamps. I did make a Jfet preamp that sounds pretty good for an article in AudioXpress a few years back though. It has been running in my office for about ten years now but tubes are my favorite, I especially like the 6922 but there are so many great tubes to play with, battery tubes are great but they are tough to work with, they can be noisy and hard to control. When you have your preamp do the sound sculpting then you save the expense, inefficiency and low power of tubes in the power amp so this is where you want to do it because it's much easier to control harmonics in the preamp stage AND much easier to modify and contour your design. We are seeing this combination now with amps like the Heaven Billie mkII and they sound good - very good in fact. The Heaven uses off the shelf ICE 200AS modules which are excellent class D amps, don't let their low cost fool you. So why should we go through the expense and fiddliness of output transformers and amps that can double as room heaters when we can have much more environmentally friendly amps that sound remarkably good without all the copper, gold, silver or whatever else people want to throw into massively heavy tube power amps? It's a much more elegant solution and we can contour a preamp to any sound we like, it's electronic engineering, we can make test equipment that measures in the picoamps. It's a magnificently precise field, let's employ it, save the planet and have great sound. Our house runs on PV, every watt counts and I love audio - I want both! Thanks again for your wonderful channel.
Thank you so much for your very kind appreciation and also for your very interesting contribution to the topic. Maybe you’ve seen my interview with Bruno P, he’s a person I have a deep respect for and line in a personal basis too? I have also heard a Billy amp and was very impressed, so much so, I want to review their new model when it comes out. Thanks again for taking the time to comment. Best wishes Harley
If money was no object, it would be mula mula I don’t know if you watch other hi-fi review on here but Jay audio lab did one on the mula mula dac and he was shocked on how good it sounded for the price. It was highly recommended it
Strange..............I thought a lot lately about your experience and interest in preamplifiers , maybe because I am preparing to build another one myself. If an amplifier may be the hart of a system , the preamplifier is it's pace or peace-maker. Apart of the musicality and quality of a preamplifier and the need to use one versus the alternative of a passive version ( essentialy an input selector with gain control ) it's also a piece to get synergy and peace when listening and connecting to the music...... The very best preamplifier may noyt suit a given system........but in many or most cases the preamplifier is essential even when the input sensibility of an amplifier is high enough at least on paper ..............input sensitivity tles not the whole thing ! There's the right impedance matching, the right tonality , harmony and coherence ......that make music rproduction great or ...........not ! In the better emotional rewarding systems the preamplifier is the one that completes a happy and satisfying mariage . Good SS preamplifiers may outperform lesser quality ones and in many cases the more commercialized and cheaper tube amplifiers .............in the end the valve will win the contest because their potential in reproducing music is unpaired by SS .......that's only valid when they are build with the real ( mostly forgotten ) knowledge and care .......and NOT cheap ! SS= solid state = semiconductors = halbleiter .........it's selfexplaining . For me personal it's the result that counts and the way it connect's you to the music that makes a system great............big money is not always the solution , high performance is also not the equivalent of musicality... Quality has always a cost .............building yourself set you free from the unavoidable limitations and economic compromizes ......being freed from this practice and by your personal choice and or availble budget . Passive can only work well with amplifiers that do NOT need preamplification and you could as well build the volume controle into the chassis of the amplifier with the option of an extra input selector . Passive can sound very clean and lifeless .......ideal for passive listening experience ( with no risk ) ....it does almost nothing wrong but lacks ceratin qualities by eating up the energy ( transferd into heat and losses ) of the musical life blood. EVERY component leaves a trace and every component eats something away, erases and or dissforms some information. That's why I choose now to limit the number off components to their very necessary quantity .....the least possible contacts, connectors , selectors , wiring, solderpoints ......with the few components left it ( the nature of sonuic inprint and harmonic texture ) becomes VERY obvious wath only a single component will does to music .....so synergy is an essential thing , not corrected by any (destructing ) error correcthing or compensation network.... Takes a long time thinking and evaluting what kind of a circuit and tube choice one has to make ........and understanding the best circuit you choose will only modulate the power comming out of the wall ......In fact you always listen to the power supply , the circuit is only modulating the energy that it is suplied to . So many fake believes are exchanged within the audio community..........there's a lot of inversed thinking ........while also too many critics do spew critics without having done their home work by experiencing it by themselves . As stated by Albert ; " Make it as simple as possible but NOT to simple " ...Better to have one good meal than hunderds of fastfoods ( that will make you sick ).......... PS ......Even on many very expensive (pre-) amplifiers and sources I see the use of questionable low quality RCA sockets and others ...........this will be revealing when replaced on a quality amplifier. Kind regards
Hey Harley. I Decided on a silver DENAFRIPS Hestia12th for XLR balanced signal management this month. The Topping has more of a Clinical reputation. Not my thing. I would definitely recommend the Hestia12th for the clear expressive, full bodied presentation. I believe it allows the Ares12th full freedom to display it's wonderful musical strengths. Hestia also has an aluminium brick remote with Marantz/Mu-Fi CD player compatible functionality! I'm keeping the Musical Paradise MP701mk2 for DIY tweaking and when I fancy the added tube Magic (-:OFTEN ;-)
Don't forget the Holo Audio Serene. It's a much, much better pre-amp than the Topping in transparency and overall SQ. Likely better than the Makua (just the pre-amp alone). Infact, it is Herb Reichert (Stereophile) one and only reference pre-amp at the moment. I would say the Tambaqui + Serene is heaven.
Hi, if truth be told, I have not done a true side by side comparison. But I have heard both and used both. They are very different pieces of equipment. The xp-22 being a pure pre-amplifier with separate power supply, with much more functionality from the remote control. + build quality is fantastic. So if you have a really satisfying Dac already, then the Pass would be my preference - the performance is superb. But, if you’re looking for a very musical Dac and a pre, then the Sugden is very good value for money. If you don’t mind getting out of your chair to change inputs. I hope that helps?
@@PearlAcoustics Thank you, and actually, I should have specified, I am looking at getting the LA-4 preamp. The xp-22 also costs a lot more. I have heard the xp22, and it did sound great!
@@nskiad Hi, I found the LA-4 very pleasing. It works at its best, with only one output connected. You can manually switch it to standby, which is very useful. The only downside is the remote control, and the need to get out of one’s chair to change inputs. Musically, it’s absolutely fine and does its job very well indeed, without drawing attention to itself, if you know what I mean? I hope this helps? Good luck in your decision. Let me know how you get on!
Try the Holo Audio Serene..a straight wire with gain...literally. (i have one in my headphone set up) A huge Lygndorf fan though as ive had a TDAi 2200 for a long time....may not be the last thing in amplification but its pretty damned good and i can live with its minor performance issues for the simply massive beneift of room correction....once id tried that there was, and is, no going back.
That preamp of your’s which appears to have no access to standby from the generic remote control:- try lomg pressing the mute button. If a ubiquitous remote control is important to you, buy components which employ Bluetooth remote facilities, not infrared. They will be effective for up to 6 yards and are omnidirectional, regardless of furniture and other obstacles. I don’t have the luxury of a dedicated listening room. My hi-fi has to fight for its right to be in our family lounge. It is therefore subject to the prying little fingers of grandchildren and pet dogs. To protect it, I house it in a media cabinet with smoked glass lockable doors I had purpose built. A secondary benefit of that is that you don’t hear the ‘click click click’ of the preamp’s volume control.
I only have the MF M6Si.., but that remote really makes the whole thing feel cheap…, a real let down… My only relief… if you can call it that, is that MF puts that remote even with the top gear… Love the amp.., as should be able to.., but that piece of crap plastic remote…, have MF no pride in finish..?
Recently implemented the Topping PRE90 between Topping D70s dac and Atoll AM400..what can I say, I´m really surprised by the result. I was already a big fan of the D70s and now found a perfect matching preamp. These are really some hidden gems in the Topping range. It´s also incredible silent, can´t tell if the equipment is on or off with my ear to the tweeter 🤫 The remote is not very responsive but luckely I´m only 3m in front of it..then it works fine.
Hi Wim, thanks for your comment. But, this is great thing about listening to music in the mid 2020’s - you can get truly great results for an extremely low cost. (Proportionally). Your Fostex has a marvellous Dac chip in it that not many people could tell the difference with a very expensive one. It’s like wrist watches today. You don’t need to spend a fortune to have very accurate timekeeping. Enjoy.
I find the Topping to be very clear (low distortion) but that is also accompanied by slightly less musical involvement than the Krell KRC HR but clearer than the Krell. Then I compared both of these to the Denafrips Athena and the Athena had the clarity of the Topping and the body and warmth of the Krell. All were very good at sound staging and creating the phantom image. I’ve decided to keep the Athena.
I don't understand electrical engineers who work in this industry. The ideal output impedance for electronic devices is zero. The ideal input impedance is infinity. The closer you get to these ideals, the less the wire that connects them matters so long as it is not a dead short or an open circuit and the less variable there is between matching equipment. The output of most of these devices at the low signal level is a cathode follower if it's a tube and an emitter follower if it's solid state or its equivalent for a FET (drain follower output.) This is a legacy of the vacuum tube era where the input impedance of a vacuum tube is so high that the output impedance of the previous stage can be 50 to even a couple of hundred ohms because the next stage input impedance is 100 kohms or much more. The math is given to us by Thevenin's theorem (Norton's theorem is the current equivalent), the telegrapher's equations for the wired, and knowledge of the load. This allows the engineer to compute the FR of the combination through straightforward network analysis. And it can be done for the engineer with software just by plugging in the parameters. A solid state class AB low output power stage with an impedance under 1 ohm and very low distortion and noise is cheap and is the best choice but the engineers seem to stick to the legacy of the bygone tube era. See John Atkinson's warning about pairing a Nagra preamp with a low input impedance power amp of 5 kohms to say 20 kohms in his measurements. The situation gets much worse with tube power amplifiers. Combine the high output impedance with the hysteresis distortion of the impedance matching output transformer and you have quite a mess. Now combine that with something even reviewers overlook, the crazy phase response of the complicated extreme crossover networks in loudspeaker designs to get them to sound flat that the amplifier has to deal with and you can understand why it takes a $50,000 amplifier to handle these crazy loads when a $5000 amplifier and an equalizer will do the job just as well instead. It seems to me designers like Nelson Pass have a different amplifier for every day of the week and no two of them sound exactly alike unless you are Bob Carver who proved he could make any solid state amplifier sound like any other by matching their in circuit transfer functions. The modern so called high end preamplifier has removed as many controls and functions as possible on the theory that less is more yet those who master recordings have a vast array of tools to process audio signals to get them to where they want them. It's quite a skill and it takes a well educated musical ear to use it, something in my experience most audiophiles don't have. So my choice is none of the above.
Hi Harley, thankyou for a really nice review. I own the MF 8s pre and pwr which I really have enjoyed. I am always hearing about valve amps and have resisted them up until now. I recently bought a second hand oldish Prima Luna integrated amp to finally see if there is a difference. Not sure if you have heard the Prima Luna products (assembled in China) but I cannot believe the sound this amp produces. Running through the Focals (with the beryllium tweeter) you literally cannot stay awake it is that smooth and involving. It some ways it makes me sad as the MF's are really nice but how do you go back? warm regards as always from New Zealand.
Hi Russell, thanks for your kind appreciation. Absolutely, I HD e heard if Prima Luna. They are extraordinarily good value for money. I think one has to be a bit careful about generalising when it comes to tube amplifiers, I have heard some awful ones too (even from big brands). I find the M8 power amplifier to be particularly good, so just for fun, you might want to try your Premaluna as a preamplifier into the M8, if it has a variable pre output? If you like tubes, then do consider trying a pure class A tube amplifier too or even a Sugden A21SE or SPA4. When do you go back? When it’s full Summer and you don’t want a heater of an amplifier making your room even hotter! 😀 Enjoy the music, Best wishes Harley
I enjoyed this video so much I started looking around the net and note the Topping can be had for around £525 new and SPT Phonitor 2s with the headphone amp for around £1000 in mint condition second hand. Tremendous value. €750 for the upgraded Mola Mola remote looks seriously like arbitrary and predatory pricing. I entirely accept the unit might be worth €9000, but the remote? I have beautiful aluminium remotes from Kinki Studio, Jay's Audio and Allnic, all of which were included in the price of the unit. Also, any idea if the Phonitor 2 contains the same preamp circuitry as the one you featured, Harley? .
Thanks very much for your kind appreciation. I am led to believe that the preamplifier sections are basically all the same, apart from slight feature differences and are all built around SPL’s 120v rail technology. You could always reach out to them if you want to be a 100% sure?
Currently my system has both Pass XP-15 phono and XP-22 linestage preamps.They pair very well with my Audio Research VT-100 Mk III amplifier. I have regrets about selling some of my former preamps, especially my Audio Research D-76A, my Mark Levinson ML-1 and especially my Audible Illusions Modulus 3B for its simplicity of design.
As far as remotes go my Carver CT-24 Reciever/Preamp has a remote that is simple, easy to use as in intuitive. It has a motor that actualy turns the expensive audio pot volume knob so operating the volume is just as quite as turning the knob by hand. I bought it in 1992 right out of high school and it is still going strong. I have not tried massive off axis use of the remote and I doubt it is rf but I also do not recall ever feeling frustrated by it. Some remotes simply have far too many buttons and are not at all intuitive to operate. I think when talking about overly sophisticated pre-amps with a lot of functionality you do not need to be able to do everything from the remote. If the choice is to have it as cluttered as a late 1990's early 2000 Mercedes dash or to have it as simple as a 1980's Toyota dash I want the simple Toyota dash. You can get up off your rear end and do the complicated and involved stuff that you seldom do for the sake of a very friendly remote! It is not like we are doing advanced math on a graphic calculator! The scourge of remotes right up their with the Biblical Plagues of Egypt are the Home Theater AV/Pre/intergrated amp remotes.
I invested in a japanese vintage $3k transformer coupled tube preamp for the first time and i'm blown away. I've had tube integrated amps for demo(rogue audio) and sure it was nice but had many downsides and i've had many tube dacs and even demo'd an old ARC LS16 tube preamp which i was disappointed with how noisy and boring it was(now i know how important tube rolling is -and how expensive and obsessive it can get-the LS16 had a bad tube and they were cheap russian tubes). I've always thought i could get tube musicality from a tube dac nad keep everything else solid state....now? I have a solid state amp and a tube dac, but i tried a cheap little hdmi dac and was shocked i still really liked how it sounded through the tube preamp. I'm now heavily considering going with a budget solid state dac and allow the tube pre to bring the musical enjoyment.
If I were asked what *one* component in my system I would not give up it would be really, really difficult to pick just one. The contest would be between my Lab12 Pre 1 preamp and the DECware “Zen amp” SE84UFO. The Zen is just SO good, especially since I did some tube rolling and settled on a set that I think (so far!) is optimal. That said, even with speakers with sensitivity of 90 dB, the little Zen can be challenged with some recording and volume levels. Aside from great reviews that’s one reason I bought the Lab 12 preamp. It has gobs of gain, besides being a clean and “pure” component. So overall if forced I’d say the Pre 1 would be my choice. Not that it is much good without the other components!
Not a silly question at all. Indeed, there are so many variables when it comes to build a hifi system. If you decide to go down the route of preamplifier / power amplifier combination… you will need to choose the preamplifier first, (with the functionality you want) or use the ‘pre out’ of an integrated amplifier. And compare power amplifiers that way. I hope that helps a bit?
As an avid DIY'er, preamps are possibly the hardest piece of gear to get right in terms of system matching and neutrality. Some thoughts: There's no excuse for a preamp with a high noise floor - that's not a price issue, it's a lazy engineer issue. Impedance matching: input impedance should be >10x the source output impedance. Output impedance should be at least 10 times less than the power amps input impedance. This is often overlooked. Check the specs before buying, especially when mixing valve and solid state gear. Gain is good, until it's not: A lot of preamps offer huge gain and you end up using only a 3rd of your volume control travel which means you loose resolution and attenuation 'sweet spot'. Tone Control! Please don't be offended but my room is not perfect, and I listen to a range of genres with varying recording quality... I tried DSP and found it was not ideal for sound quality. A well designed tone control circuit that can be completely disabled is a beautiful thing.
As an audio equipment seller (import and retail) I used the Sugden LA-4 preamplifier for over a year, daily, with various power amplifiers, including monoblocks from PassLabs and Audio Reasearch. The LA-4 is a universal and very musical but also dynamic preamplifier. They sound, in my opinion, even better than the $10,000-$35,000 preamps from PassLabs. Sugden saves music from technology. Nelson Pass is a genius in audio electronics, but his preamplifiers are over-engineered and they sound a bit artificial, in my opinion, as well as his integrated and power amplifiers.
Great video as always. Really well spent time, listening to your thoughts. It is always passion for music combined with common sense here on your channel. Like talk with good friend. Thank you. (By the way, I've just bought Tambaqui DAC and yes, this thing sounds terrific!)
I follow many other reviewers on YT but I feel more connected with you because I simply feel your love for music and also I see that you are striving for perfection with humility. Please tell me what cables you use or you like to use the most in your system here in your listening/showroom in Belgium because I want to recommend to you one of the best interconnects I have ever experienced in my life and that I have loved so much that one night I put it under my pillow (crazy me). I mean what power cables, USB cables, speaker and interconnect cables do you use the most? Thank you!
Thank you so much for your very kind remarks and appreciation, they mean a lot to me and the team. For loudspeaker cables, I use our own (2 x 80 strand very heavy gauge copper, per loudspeaker) with twist tight connects. For the rest, it’s a real mish-mash of mostly AudioQuest. We try to keep things reasonably priced, I am very curious to hear your recommendation! 😉
Thanks! 🙏 well spotted! The tube amp on the top shelf is a prototype of our new Pearl Acoustics 170, single ended power amplifier. I will be making a video on it, once I receive the first full production model, in a few weeks time.
I have been enjoying my Emotiva PT2 pre. Great functionality. The built in dac and phono stage could been left out because they are sub par. I really like the high pass on the mains out and also the low pass sub out. And the FM tuner is a must have for me (classical music).It plays nicely with my diy Pass ACA.
Happy to hear good impressions of the SPL pre having bought an SPL Diamond DAC recently and really enjoying it. The only possible rival was the Sudgen DAC-4 but I don't have a local dealer to audition it. I assume this is similar to the DAC in the Sugden preamp.
Indeed the DAC-4 and Sugden DAP 800 have identical Dac’s. They basically just placed the Dac inside the pre casing. They even Neots original power supply, so you have two power switches at the back 😉.
Hi Harley, thanks for the contant, always a pleasure to watch your videos. I was actually wondering how would your beautiful speakers synergise with naim gear but you never mention them. Not on your taste or for other reason? Thanks!
@@mariusscurtu6255 I'm obviously not Harley, but as someone familiar with both Naim and Mark Audio drivers (which are used by the Sibelius speakers), the answer is they make a fantastic pairing. The drivers do an especially good job of highlighting the detail that Naim amps deliver. Happy to answer any other questions you might have.
I would just suggest not to worry too much about remotes. Sure for the prices you expect a decent one to be included. However, just get a universal remote, and the problem is solved. The remote is really just a detail and by far not the most important when buying a preamp. I finished the whole video in 1 go and I didn't fall asleep or get bored. Which means great content and presentation!
Thanks very much for your kind comment and contribution to the topic. Indeed, I eventually invested in a universal remote and the additional IR receiver. Now all works well. 🙏
As I never bother with a remote and I'm not listening as such whilst changing volume so relay clicks aren't an issue either. I only use two sources, Vinyl and digital so multiple inputs don't matter. Sound quality is the ONLY important factor for me so the Topping has got to be the winner.
