The conflict between the Maquis and Starfleet crews being forced to work together after being thrown into the Delta Quadrant lasted like two episodes and then it is totally resolved. Then they're one big happy Starfleet family after that. That was always remarkably baffling to me.
Of course it is. But think like this: if they would play out ALL the minute conflicts between those two factions the series would be nine more seasons or something. So, sizing it down is what they do.
An understandable question, but the reality is that both Maquis and Starfleet are military hierarchies. For anyone from a lower rank, the difference is Delta Quadrant, not Captain, in everyday life.
I did something similar in a space TTRPG for my players where they were stranded with a pirate crew on their ship and almost immediately my players decided to expel the pirates. Maybe it's just not as interesting of a premise as anyone thought
You understand that promotions in the military only happen because spots open up when people leave. No person ever died to allow for him to be promoted into a higher role. He was already a lead bridge officer. Not much room to go up.
Sorry, but if Paris can go demoted from lieutenant junior grade to ensign and then promoted back to lieutenant junior grade at the end of the next season, then you have shi**y writers. I think in Garrett Wang's case (Harry Kim) is that he said something bad about Rick Berman so I think that's the reason why Poor Harry remains an ensign for the entire run of the series. It's also why Garrett, who wanted to direct episodes of the show, was denied the director's chair. I think he was the only cast member in any Star Trek show denied in this case to direct.
I still like episodic shows because you can get in anytime and get out anytime. A nice self contained 1 hour episode is nice when you're not sure you'll have time to watch the next one.
Would you mind if I added Tom Paris to this list? He also had some good development, and along side Seven and the Doctor is also one of my favorite charecters.
Marsproject11 I wouldn’t say he’s the same person. He went from an arrogant womanizing ass that had no regard for anyone else unless it benefited him, to a caring person, who was a great friend and a wonderful husband and father
Dont forget they literally kill the harry kim we know when voyager splits into two alternate voyagers and then replace him with the split ones harry, and its never acknowledged again that harry literally died.
I know its pointless to bring this up but in Star trek online PC game, That same Harry Kim that died got reanimated by the Kobali and he comes back to Earth Confused as fuck and its really good. XD
For a while Voyager was my favorite show, then i watched DS9 and man that show is just by far the best show. It has some of the best character development, it shows consequences of peoples choices some of which has MAJOR consequences for the quadrants as a whole. It really shows some of the major holes in Voyager and in TNG to some extent as well. So yeah i still enjoy Voyager but yeah DS9 was by far the best.
I watched them all together. Voyager just had better pacing and that made it easier for a child’s attention. DS9 is objectively the better show as long as you can look past it’s avoidance of Roddenberry’s vision of the future, and if you can make it past the boring early episodes that try their best to make up for being stuck on the station.
@@dingle2987 I think DS9 actually showed the lengths you have to be prepared to go to in order to gain Rodenberrys vision of the future. Just because the Federation is invested in that future doesn't mean every civilisation they come up against will be as equally as invested.
You hit on why Seven and the Doctor are my favorites, they're the ones that have growth. I don't hate everyone else, not by any means. I love Voyager but it did have so much wasted potential, so if people hate it or it's their least favorite, I get why.
the xindi arc in "enterprise" is what "voyager" should've been. a lone starfleet ship in uncharted and hostile space on a desperate mission. by the end of that season, the enterprise was a mess and the crew went through hell and back that changed them for the rest of the series.
If Voyager got more and more damaged with each episode, I would have stopped watching. To me Star Trek is about escapism. I have enough stress in my own life, I don't want to stress about the state of Voyager's deteriorating condition.
@@TheChimples " I have enough stress in my own life, I don't want to stress about the state of Voyager's deteriorating condition." Don't ever watch the reboot of Battlestar Galactica then. Lol
@@xxperrin I respectfully disagree. I loved the Xindi arc. I found it captivating, especially the concept of different sentient species from the same planet and how they worked together after devastating wars, then turned against each other when it became obvious the more war-like species were taking them down a violent, dangerous"road", with the encouragement of the trans-dimensional beings.
Voyager ruined the Borg and completely removed any fear of them. That's why the Dominion are the ultimate Trek villains. They were the closest the Federation ever came to destruction.
AshtimusPrime how did Voyager ruin the Borg, every time they showed up they where dangerous, in Dark Frontier they only had to be a few seconds behind schedule for the mission to fail. Even when Voyager had detailed specs of Borg ships and weapons and shields modified by knowledge from the 29th Century they still very only able to narrowly escape
As a guy who can honestly say I love Voyager, it's literally my favorite Star Trek I can say I appreciate your point of view, though it's not the same as mine. You are the kind of person I'd love to discuss Trek with because I feel we could establish a civil debate without leading to an argument. Thanks for your input 👍
I always found Voyager bland and anodyne. Frankly, I just found Janeway so dull, emotionless, and disengaged that it hurt the show's core. Her voice grated on me in nearly every scene. The ship (model) is the ugliest of all the Star Trek starships. Tuvok was rather interesting. Seven of Nine spiced things up in many ways. I detested Neelix and like Janeway, he drained energy from every scene he was in. The show just really lacked strong personalities and the critic here hit the nail on the head about being able to skip seasons and realize basically nothing had changed. I greatly enjoyed DS9, but found TNG a bit too formulaic, although the characters were memorable. Watch Red Letter Media's review of Star Wars - The Phantom Menace. The part where they ask people to describe the central characters from one show vs another would be instructive. Specifically, I would ask someone to describe Sisko vs Janeway, Odo vs Bilana, and Quark vs Neelix without referencing their title, makeup/species, or their role. It wouldn't even be close, the contrasts would be so stark. My 2 space credits.
I love Voyager as well. Than comes TNG , than ENT . TOS I never started to enjoy watching ...after first watching Voyager, TOS was for me like sexistic cowboy show with hardly any modern ideals. TNG and VOY are really much alike. And I like that almost every episode starts in peace and status quo . That make is enjoyable to watch and to create a good mood. There it nothing like that in today's shows. I'm really sad that I couldn't watch DS9 too far, while many say, it's a great show. I hate the Ferengi and I miss a logical part like Data or Tuvok. The characters are not nice in the first place. I guess, I don't like that. And Voyager paints a great picture of our Galaxy and how big it is. And it has enough science stuff in it. Of course it has is weaknesses, but most of the time , what I think to be weak, most others celebrate and vis versa 😁
My Problem was... well, they started of with an incredibly diverse and conflicted crew. Some were Maquis, some Starfleet, some aliens who joined on the way, Tom Paris was an ex convict. All the conflict, moral grey areas, difficult and complex questions they could have explored. But, no, they make them all Starfleet after just one episode. Ranks, uniforms and all. They live in harmony with another almost right from the start, instead of making the process of becoming a crew and forming trust and friendship the result of a long term developement.Such a waste of opportunity. It's like the screen writers had good ideas at first but then got scared and reverted to well paved roads.
jordan secrist . They even had story arcs over a several episodes and was an underlying theme. The crew never was the same as a federation ship either. There was no way actions and behaviours of many of the crew would have been acceptable on a standard star fleet vessel.
Characters in The Next Generation did change, they just did so gradually over time and not often in response to big specific on-screen events. Picard loosens up and becomes more human over the course of the first couple seasons (people say that's a S1 thing, but he's still kind of stuffy and distant even by the beginning of the late-S2 story "Samaritan Snare"). Geordi and Data's friendship develops, Data gradually becomes more sophisticated and spends less time grappling with language mixups and more time thinking about serious aspects of the human condition. Riker loses some of his boyish charm and becomes more gruff and fatherly. (The women didn't fare as well, but...that's 80s TV for you, really.) If we had the entire show to do over then yes, sure, there's definitely stuff that should have had more impact than it did, like the aforementioned women, or Picard's trauma with the Borg. or a couple of characters' near-death or life-altering time-travel experiences. But by and large, a lot of the time the stakes in TNG weren't that high, which is something I like and respect about the show. Whole episodes would just be about straightforward character drama, like a character coming to terms with an old lover or with an estranged family member, instead of the ship constantly nearly exploding. As I get older, that's what stands out to me more and more about TNG; it's less of an adventure show (although that's still an element) and more of a drama, sometimes a very good drama. But it's drama of a sort where characters aren't constantly having their worlds rocked from week to week; it's mundane. Riker's not gonna be like "remember when I didn't get along with my dad and then I did?" The problem with Voyager is that their situation was inherently more dynamic and dangerous than the situation of the TNG characters but they grew even *less* over those seven years.
Well, Troi was able to become friends with Riker once again after the difficult end of their relationship. They worked closely together too. She embraced her Starfleet identity more fully and trained to become a bridge rated officer. She grew. Crusher less so.
@@kirstencorby8465 Was that before or after Captain Jellico told her to put on a proper uniform? Troi is so boring and annoying that I don't remember. And Crusher was still the same vapid, boring character at the end of Season 7 as she was in the pilot.
@@Shan_DalamaniI understand the dislike for Troi, but I liked Dr. Crusher from the beginning up to the very end. I think her mother/son relationship with Wes is very good. Her closeness to Picard allowed her to speak to him informally like no one else could.
An additional comment to my previous: For a series about a ship and it's crew on a journey, it is ironic to note that series is static or "immobile" most of the time; too large a percentage of episodes share the same basic stories, and several of the species they meet are very similar to characters in either Voyager itself or in previous series. DS9 on the other hand, is rather static in regards to travelling and only explores planets and area relatively close to the Wormhole, and thus the physical location; which is logical given that the primary location is a space STATION rather than a SHIP. But in terms of stories combined with development of characters and the changing relations between empires/associations, makes DS9 a lot more mobile. Rather ironic, or ...?
I wouldn't call it ironic, in fact it's natural. Given that the main location is static and immobile it must have more mobility with its characters and relationships, be they between characters or planets/organizations/nations/empires.
He was, but the lengths they went to with him, especially later on, when they started finding implausible reasons to treat him as a person (and shoe-horn in unlikely holographic sentients and their 'rights issues') were all laughable. It all started with the script-writers not having anyone show the small amount of common sense to explain to Kes that her view of the Doctor as a person, was wrong (not to mention, infantile). It snow-balled from there until we have the unwanted and highly-artificial moral expositions and explorations later in the series. They should have simply had him be the living doctor from the beginning.
@@balshabethstrages2923 I would argue that since "Measure of a Man," there's actual legal precedence for the Doctor being treated as a person. Unlike normal computer programs, he displays an obvious self-awareness (disdain for people forgetting to shut off his program, and even a bit of existential dread at the thought of the crew being beamed through the Wormhole back to the Alpha Quadrant, since his program is integrated with the ship), no one can argue his intelligence, and I don't really think we want to go down the rabbit hole of proving consciousness. The Doctor meets the legal requirements as set forth by Starfleet in Captain Louvois' ruling in 2365 for sentience, some six years prior to the Doctor's initial activation. So, as "laughable" as it may be, there is actual in universe legal canon established in an actual onscreen episode that sets forth why it has to be that way. So, to say that Kes' treatment of the Doctor is infantile is, by my estimation, to say that the crew of the Enterprise's treatment of Data is the same. To say that her treatment of him as sentient is wrong, is to say that the court's ruling of Data as a sentient being is wrong.
One of the problems I had with the show (still love it, though) was that for most of the time, it didn't really feel like they were lost and alone far from home. It was such a good premise, but when almost every episode could have taken place in federation teritory, or they find some artifact from Earth, frozen historical figures from Earth, or lost Earth colonies, and all these connections with Earth happen quite frequently, it doesn't really feel like they are lost in space.
I noticed that the aliens they met almost always seemed to have similar emotions, similar relationships, similar lifestyles to us humans. There were a few major exceptions, but for the most part, the beings they met were way too familiar.
> all these connections with Earth happen quite frequently, it doesn't really feel like they are lost in space. Funny you should use that exact phrase, because _Lost in Space_ itself often has precisely the same problem. Early on, the Robinsons are established to have landed on a planet in another "galaxy". Yet, aliens who have been to Earth or at least know of it-and miraculously speak perfect English, and usually dress exactly like a human would-visit them almost every week. Sometimes even actual humans show up out of the blue. I've not gotten too far through (only on the second season), but the parallel is just amusing.
Tom and B’Elanna both grow over the course of the show. I will say Janeway and Tom should both have been more disturbed by their sojourns as salamanders
Paul Smith janeway was also almost french (canadian). they filmed the pilot with genevieve bujold, and then axed her. the same actress also almost played ellen ripley in the alien franchise.
Bujold quit Voyager three or four days into filming, she couldn't handle the stress of a TV production schedule. They cast Mulgrew by the end of the week Bujold quit, and she was on-set the following Monday
@@billkeithchannel , actually I do understand about Picard's accent. Years ago I met a fellow I assumed was British. He was actually born and raised in France. He evidently learned English early. Maybe bot languages spoken when he was you. If you think about it, a non-british European is like to have more of a British accent when they speak English as that's the accent they have more exposure to.
The reason the strictly episodic nature hurts Voyager more than it did in TNG is due to the premise. TNG, like TOS, was a series of missions. They'd get orders to go somewhere or deal with something, complete the mission, and move on. It was the job. Voyager was supposed to be on a 70 year trip to get home, travelling through completely unknown space, with no allies or ability to re-supply at a nearby starbase. Add in that a portion of the crew held resentment, at minimum, and hostility at most towards Starfleet and the Federation and there should have been a gradual shift to being a single crew. In other words, the basic premise of Voyager should have encouraged storylines about change, growth, and dealing with scarcity and isolation. However, most episodes could have been TNG episodes with minimal rewrites because it was : arrive at planet, there's a problem, deal with problem, move on to the next job.
Barclay was, in my opinion, the best used of the "borrowed" assets. He was still the same nervous wreck as always, but he had gained at least a little bit of confidence from his years of therapy.
Agreed. Barclay was one of the few borrowed assets that worked and wasn't ground down by Voyager; the Q and the Borg where both worsened over the course of the series. The first Q episode wax actually really good, and the first few appearances of the Borg ranged from ok to great. But by the end of the series, both where much less interesting entities.
Thank you, Steve, for acknowledging Harry Kim's promotion problem. The man saved the ship more times (and more substantially) than Wesley Crusher did on the Enterprise. As far as the monotony problem, blame Rick Berman. He was a company man through and through.
For some reason the Federation values risk-takers (people who just don't follow orders). Not just any risk-taker. No value for a "Risk" taker who was wrong. (I guess you are risking if you career progresses or regresses) There seem to be significant value for someone who Risked their career with insubordination but was correct and proved the Federation wrong. (Even Data an A.I. recognizes this and with his first command disobeys orders to retreat and is later congratulated for an exceptional job by Picard) I also get the sense that the Federation values redemption. There are several references. Different franchises have commented on how the federation don't just want captains that follow orders nor captions who have not experience the consequences of not following orders. besides Lt/Ensign Paris, there is an episode on TNG that illustrates what would have happened to Picard had he not been stabbed in the heart in a bar fight. Picard would not have been a risk-taker and would be a very old ensign (explained by Riker and Troi). Sadly, Harry Kim is punished in this way because he is the perfect, obedient officer.
I think comparing nog to Kim is difficult because one was in a war and then other wasn’t. Nog got promoted because he survived when so many were killed. You need someone to lead all the recruits and draftees which means he has be a higher rank then those coming in behind him. Not promoting Kim was doubt but at the same time there was new influx of people behind him. So if he got promoted nothing would really change.
How would it be possible to promote people in a 7 year period when none of the Senior officers ever died? Obviously, off screen, when Red Shirts were killed, lesser people would obviously have to be promoted to replace them. But the Senior Staff can't all be Captains or First Officers by the time they get home! Besides, what good would a promotion do? It's not like they get a pay raise or a change of position. Paris was able to be promoted because at the beginning of the series, he had no rank at all, so he was simply reinstated, then demoted, then reinstated again.
I understand that they can't promote everyone but if that's the case why do they keep giving Harry responsibilities that are obviously more important than his rank? He's seen giving orders to people that are lieutenants in times that are not crises. He's allowed to be the night watch officer in the captain's chair - seriously, there can be three shifts and there's no way there aren't other people to do that.
The fact that voyager is episodic isn't necessarily bad in and of itself, but the series plot just lends itself so well to serialization that it feels like they really whiffed
Exactly. Episodic worked well on TOS and TNG because they had easy access to StarFleet facilities to fix shit and reset things to the status quo between episodes. The biggest plot point of Voyager was that they were stranded with no resupply from the Federation which begs for continuity between episodes as they use what they can get to fix the ship as they go. There are things that can't be replicated they would need to mine/refine/manufacture it themselves or trade with aliens and adapt the parts to fit. There are a lot of good episodes but the series as a whole really dropped the ball.
That it would have been so _easy_ to carry stuff over from episode to episode is what annoys me. Painting a little scarring or patched hull on the ship model, sticking little extra bits on it here and there. Making tiny alterations to sets. The writers just keeping track of how many damn shuttles and torpedoes they have left.
Voyager is frustrating because while overall it's a very weak show, it has some of the very best episodes in all star trek. Living Witness for example. Diamonds in waves of sand
Yeah out of all the shows, Voyager is the one that’s more suited to change. The problems with rations, power, manpower, supply just became lip service because it never really affected them apart from surface level situations.
Hats off to DS9 for taking the other route. Sisko mouthing off Picard, Q getting punched and never coming back, O'Brien saying that he prefered working on the station than the Enterprise, the borg? Nah bro we have enough problems with the dominion. Also the writers really cared for the characters to give each one of them really good arcs. I mean they made me care for not one but three ferengi, THREE!!!
I loved Voyager. I watched all the episodes. However, the one thing that 'annoyed' me was the fact that the warp core went offline ALL THE TIME!! It was Tom Paris's constant line. Especially when they knew they were coming up on a stressful period. They'd do all this work to prepare, and BANG, someone would flush the toilet, and it would go off line. It drove me crazy!!! That was really lazy writing.
Actually, it made sense. It was established right away that Voyager's warp core was basically a beta test of a prototype design for a new warp core. Upon capturing Chakotay, they would have returnes to Utopia Planitia for extensive diagnostics and inspections to determine how it held up in actual use. Torres even told her engineering 2nd that she was going to rely on him because he was more familiar with the new design than she was. For it to need constant aggravating care under the circumstances actually makes perfect sense, especially when tied with the (also beta testing) bioneural gel packs.
There were a lot of warp cote failures of one type or another. I like the beta testing idea, but even so, I think I'd be reluctant to serve on a ship that didn't seem very able to control the large quantity of antimatter it was sitting on (I mean even less control than the average ship, which wasn't exactly safe)
Cause you lack imagination. Think about it...they are stuck in the delta quadrant. You can't simply pull up to a dock station for repairs. Plus all the battles they were subjected to as well as the fact they were squeezing every ounce of the core to get home...even modifying the core to squeeze a few light years. Not to mention species steeling it.
The big issue with Voyager's firm adherence to status quo is the fact, I think, that the setting is the least appropriate to maintaining a status quo that you could get on a Star Trek show, save an actual war. The ship and crew have a set goal that they need to actually make progress towards, in a situation that was supposed to make it so that their actions would have lasting consequences. In one episode, they point out how they have a severely limited number of torpedoes on board and no means of replacing them, and the issue just goes away by the next. The crew are supposed to be on rationing, can't use the replicators to much and need Neelix with his kitchen, but use the holodecks every other episode. From the scenario that was set up by the show itself, they should have been more like the reimagined BSG than the TNG clone that we ended up with.
@connor horman What was it? Infinitium? If the Holodecks have their own power, why not devote it to the overriding goal of travelling as fast possible without damaging the vessel?
@@GreyFang9 Harry Kim mentioned, in an early episode where the officers were trying to solve energy shortage problems, that the holodecks had their own power source and it couldn't be tapped for other uses in the rest of the ship. No further details were given, AFAIR.
@@chrisschembari2486 I don't doubt you. It is that kind of hand-wavy bullshit which makes no sense, that made me not like the show... It would make sense in the way that you can't tap your cell phone, tablet, and watch batteries to power a vehicle. The problem would be _using the vehicle's power to recharge those devices._ --which is what the crew did on the regular.
@@GreyFang9 indeed, and since my last comment here, I saw a Spacedock RU-vid video that pointed out that Voyager and other later TNG era Starfleet ships are supposed to be more capable and tougher than earlier TNG era ships, due to encounters with the Borg, the Dominion, etc. In that framework, such an energy incompatibility is doubly idiotic.
In my weird little world, by season 7, Voyager (the ship) would have been a practically unrecognizable hodgepodge of mismatched alien technology, as they scraped to replace damaged parts with whatever they could trade for, steal, or scrounge. Kazon armor, Hirogen pulse cannons, maybe a Malon warp nacelle, and lots and lots of Borg bits and pieces covering the hull. But no, they had to have a misplaced sense of integrity. The characters should have been like that too. A mixture of dangerous experiences and traumatic events, that should have made them difficult people by the end.
My thoughts have been along those lines as well. It was just a fan fantasy and I knew it wouldn't happen, but I still imagined Voyager returning to the climax of DS9 with some technology that tipped the scale in the battle while Starfleet could identify Voyager only by the ID code, but not visually because the ship had changed too much. I stopped buying the Video Cassettes with the end of the first season because I was so disappointed by 'The 37's'. I didn't mind too much that none of the crew stayed behind. I could live with that, but still a missed chance to do something new. No, I was disappointed that none of the people they found wanted to go with Voyager. That this was the best chance to introduce something new, a new culture travelling with them, maybe some new technology. Something. Anything. P.S. I also find the greatest mistake was riding on the point that Janeway destroyed the Array. There was no choice. Tuvok said that he needed, what was it? An hour to prepare the mechanism? They'd be drowning in Kazon ships by then. They managed to destroy one of their big ones by sacrificing the Maquis ship. A several of the small ones or another big one and they would need to flee anyway.
lol right ? Just to think in comparison Geordie La Forge changed the the Enterprise more than enough in it's Five year mission that the designer of the vessel chewed his ass off for it. They have all the replacement parts they needed with a full service history of getting overhauled and tuned up at regular intervals. Yet he still had time to tweak around enough, that it earned him a dressing down in front of his engineering crew.
They could have used Neelix ship to destroy the array, with one crewman (Janeway?) staying behind to do it. They could have brought explosives on board of the array, with a timer, then left the place. They could have figured out a way to use the array to fight the Kazon... in order to buy them time. Of course the show would have been over by then, but at least they should have tried harder, to then fail and come to the conclusion they came to in VOY. I mean consider how high the consequences. Getting stranded in the delta quadrant. And they give up so easily?
I agree with all your points; even earned nerd points by correctly guessing the example flaw you were leading up to each time 😁 FOR VOYAGER POINTS: 1. Captain crazy-caffeinated Janeway. She’s the captain I grew up with, and as a little girl my and best friend bonded over how much we cherished and idolized her. O Captain , my captain. 2. Tuvok. Vulcans are the shit but there hadn’t been a kickass Vulcan since Spock until Tuvok. 🎶Tuvok I understand. 🎶 You are a Vulcan man 🎶 3. B’Elanna. Laugh at me all you want, her episode character arcs made me cry. I was a mixed race girl growing up in a very racist school in the 90s. I felt rejected and other-ized by both sides of my family, like i didn’t belong to either of my races. This was not a social issue I saw discussed or represented anywhere in society. Then B’Elanna episodes. I felt seen. That means something. Remember, if someone doesn’t think representation in media matters, they are almost certainly someone who IS represented already. Thank you Voyager for that. Also helping me pass my vocabulary test question on ‘assimilated’
Absolutely agree. Even id voyager's eriting could have been better its still star trek and it forwarded the series' goal of telling diverse stories. Im very happily especially that we at least got one show with a woman captain lead, it would feel wrong if star trek never had one
Agreed. And apparently at least some native Americans like Chaktay even though he's not great representation. I don't like Discovery very much but I will grant them, they went out of their way to expand representation and did a good job adding many diverse characters who felt like actual people.
The "reset button" problem came as a direct result of the UPN executives interfering with the show. They decreed that Voyager had to be the same kind of show as TNG. single episode self contained "issue of the week" stories rather than sweeping story arcs like DS9. Basically they wanted Voyager to be a "sequal" to TNG. Unfortunately that flew directly in the face of the premise of the show which was a ship lost in uncharted space years and years from home. The studio also put the kibosh on the starfleet vs maquis storyline as again they wanted the show to be like TNG which to them meant no crew conflict since the TNG crew was supposedly like a big family. Basically most of voyagers problems can be paid at the feet of executive meddling.
I get the problem with the reset button on Voyager - after a few seasons the ship should have been looking like something out of Mad Max. Ironically, one of the best episodes of Voyager; Year Of Hell, was set up to be a reset button episode.
Not really. I'm rather fond of the idea that Technology has gotten to a point in the 24th century that Voyager would be able to handle itself well (which is why I thought the idea of "replicator rations" was so stupid). I understand it happening to the Equinox, because it was more like trying to drive a Smart car from the north most point of North America to the southern most point of South America, but I would have been disappointed if Voyager fell apart right away. Remember, these starships aren't supposed to be these fragile things that fall apart the instant you drive it off the lot - these are tough ships, especially the long-rang exploratory vessels like Voyager. Given it was "only" in the Delta Quadrent for 7 years, it shouldn't have needed much more than the occasional tune-up and oil change.
It is a shame that the writers never allowed Chakotay and Janeway to have a real personal relationship. They were both available due to Janeway's husband giving her up for dead and Chakotay not having a woman in his life. And feelings between the two were defiantly eluded to. Especially in the episode where they become stranded alone on a wooded planet and Chakotay builds her a cabin and a tub...a life that neither of them really wanted to leave behind. It's also not like the extenuating circumstances of their lives wouldn't have allowed them to be together despite their rank/positions on the ship. (Starfleet can't say "it's against the rules" if Starfleet is 70,000 ly and 70 years away. It really kind of sucks that at the end of everything, Janeway never really finds anyone and Chakotay (all of a sudden) ends up magically having a relationship with Seven in the last few episodes even though Chakotay and Janeway had 7 years of history and NO romantic buildup had been established between the he and Seven of Nine prior.
As I understood it, Mulgrew vetoed her character and Chakotay actually becoming romantically linked. And of course Seven was too hot not to link with someone (even tho her character being totally asexual actually makes more sense then forced romance), so last minute Chakotay romance, here you go.
Mark was Janeway's fiance, not her husband. If you want to explain Seven and Chakotay, do what the fanfic writers did - watch their interactions over the seasons and realize that you actually can connect them to the point where they're trying out this dating thing.
I agree. It would have made a such an interesting relationship dynamic between the two characters and been really cute too. It would've also been a really fun relationship to explore, since the whole "starship captains can't date" dilemma has been addressed in other Star Trek series as well.
Ironically, Prodigy seems to be almost leaning more in that direction - I haven’t seen season 2 yet, but season 1 ends with her vowing to find him because he was forced to abandon ship
@@TheDawnofVanlife For most of her career she played eye candy, which went against pretty much what she wanted to do, and did Voyager as a challenge, since strong female leads in serial format were mostly unheard of. Had she accepted a romantic route, she would have delegated the character behind Chakotay. The Internet was still in its infancy, so studio executives had a lot of sway over what they actually wanted to see on screen and they had their way when they cast Jeri Ryan. The bad thing is, though, that originally Mulgrew misunderstood Ryan's intentions and treated her adversarial even though they both were in the same boat.
The main thing I didn't like about Voyager is that the ship looked as new and pristine in the final episode as it did in the first episode. They missed a great opportunity to make the ship look worn, battered and have a mix of alien technologies to replace systems that were destroyed. The 'unlimited shuttlecraft' issue could have easily been fixed if they had kept using alien craft that they perhaps traded for with other materials.
Captain Obvious Absolutely, it's like having a brand new car and you drive it from all the way from Key West and then go all the way to Utah. But stop "every" stop on the way and with no roadside assistance, it will be a piece of junk by time I get there.
I agree. There is an extent to which duranium alloys could be replicated on board. A sort of worn look which the original Enterprise had after the battle of Mutara nebula would have added a greater sense of victory for the crew of the Voyager.
Captain Obvious And that goes right back to the status quo problem. They couldn't or wouldn't risk changing anything, even when the very premise they gave us demanded it.
"Equinox" did just that. The crew was on the verge of going mad (some HAD actually gone mad), the ship was a wreck, and in the end it wound up being destroyed, with the Captain and almost all of the crew dead.
I can over look the "staticness" of TNG and TOS a lot more than I can for Voyager because in TNG & TOS they're still in Federation territory. They may be on the edge exploring new worlds but they're never more than a few days or a week from support. The Enterprise can be damaged in battle and half the crew eaten by a slime monster and they can simply head to Starbase 1157 for repairs at the end of the episode. The next time we see them, weeks could have gone by. The ship has been repaired, crew members replaced and our heros have had time to come to terms with the trauma is seeing over a hundred crew members be eaten alive by a slime monster. Voyager doesn't get that pass. Granted that could be that I'm looking at Voyager from 2021 where nearly every show has character development now or season long arcs. But even when I first watched Voyager it seemed that there should have been more carry over from one episode to another.
I was thinking the same thing. The other series have access to substantial resources to restore the status quo at the end of any episode, but Voyager doesn't, and so the fact that the status quo is always restored becomes super noticeable. Additionally, Voyager is the only series with a specific, overarching goal for the crew. That makes it a poor fit for the highly episodic format - characters should be focused on that, but they are always getting distracted by weird things and never seem to make any progress. Star Trek doesn't need overarching plots ("let's go and poke that planet over there" works fine, clearly), but Voyager's premise specifically CALLS for long-form arcs and meaningful progress. I can't help but wonder if taking most of its episodes and just recontextualizing them as "we're intentionally exploring the Delta Quadrant" would have improved its reputation.
Voyager was originally built up during pre-production promotional materials as being the stranded, desperate, low-supplied ship with a crew that needed time to integrate the Maquis. Instead a single episode or two was devoted to each of those concepts rather than it be the backbone of the series. They played it safe with TNG-style plots when they could have done something new. So many missed opportunities
Actually Voyager did rescue a smaller Fed starship USS Equinox that had reverted to the "get home by any means required" game plan, captained by Rudy Ransom. They had also been brought there by "the Caretaker". Voyager adopted some members of the USS Equinox crew and reduced them to "buck privates" doing all the worst/menial jobs, under constant surveillance. But, they made it back to earth. Capt. Ransom didn't.
Never watched beyond season 2 but i recall watching the pilot and beeing hyped that resource management seems to become importaint. I think it is mentioned that they have something like 20torpedos in storrage and 2 shuttle craft and after those are gone there is no way for replacement. So anything that tng could do on a regular base like shooting a probe into a nebulae would be much harder decision. They can not help everybody if they want to survive. Plus the 2 crews might have ongoing issues with each other. I was hoping that they will keep track of everything and decisions will matter way more in the long run. But it seems it never did.
@@evanparker but not the photon torpedoes? and food? I buy your point, just acknowledge that they were using the replicator to make parts not ore from scavenging.
My biggest problem with Voyager is that they abandoned their premise almost immediately after the series began. It's supposed to be a crew of Starfleet personnel fused with Maquis, but any conflict arising from that disappears by about episode 3 and is rarely seen again. And being lost in the Delta Quadrant was supposed to mean watching them struggle with things that other shows never did, like having limited resources. We rarely saw that happen in Voyager either. Finally, I thought Janeway was written very poorly, which is too bad because I thought Kate Mulgrew did a great job with what little they gave her to work with.
@krim7 Which, lets be honest, was only so they could have an excuse to bring Neelix on the crew and have Janeway make complaints about not having "real" coffee.
So much this. It could’ve been such a dynamic show with so many conflicting character motivations and experiences, and a struggling crew trying to scratch their way home. Instead it’s a luxury liner in space casually making it home. There’s no sense of danger or being lost. Oh and what a waste of Kate Mulgrew.
I too feel like there was a complete failure to deliver on the premise of a space-ship stranded more than 50 years travel away from home -- as the crow flies no less! Unfortunately, _actually delivering_ simply wasn't possible at the time: Shows weren't written for the first run, they were written for syndication. Syndication means Voyager was crafted from the ground up to be watched twice a month and out of sequence. Usually in the middle of the episode or at two in the morning. Avoiding "double-beats", multi-episode continuity and anything else that required prior knowledge was an ongoing _priority._ The long-form continuity of later sci-fi shows like Star Trek: Enterprise and The Expanse probably happened in part *because* Voyager abused cliches like "the reset button" until the regular audience was utterly sick of them. Today we have had all sorts of great shows that make heavy use of long-form continuity -- Person of Interest, The Office, The Newsroom, Parks and Recreation, NCIS, Game of Thrones, the list goes on. Voyager is _intentionally_ not in these shows' league. It's like Relic Hunter, nothing but single episode action-adventure. Meanwhile, NCIS has been on the air so long that characters they've arrested in previous seasons have repeatedly _completed their jail time and become repeat-offenders._ Voyager's whole underlying premise was simply strangled in its crib by the limits of its format. It was simultaneously ahead of its time in concept and woefully behind in execution. Which also happens to be the most common reviews for shows starring Johnny Lee Miller -- Don't hate me, I'm a fan. The poor guy is usually the best thing about those doomed shows.
I think one of my pet peeves about Voyager was that in the later seasons they started running across other people from the Alpha quadrant. How many ships got stuck out there? And they were gone at the end of the episode.
"Voyager's" biggest problem was, it didn't take advantage of its premise AT ALL. Suppose I pitch this show to you: a Federation ship kicked to a remote part of the universe, where half the ship is Federation officers and the other half is Maquis rebels. What sort of themes spring to mind? What kind of events naturally flow from that premise? You can be sure "Voyager" didn't do any of that. Now if you want a show with a comparable setup (a ship alone in potentially dangerous territory with a crew with divided loyalties), and really ran with it, that's "Farscape"; go watch that to see the "Voyager" that might have been. You will also see a ton of character growth, and honestly a lot of that comes simply from making use of the premise.
... and by the way, if there had been any real tension between Federation and Maquis loyalties on "Voyager", that would have gone to making Chakotay a much stronger character. It would have given him something to do. It would have made him more or less the guy who intercedes between the Maquis and the Federation. He could have been the guy who uses Federation principles to keep Federation types in line, and alpha maleness to keep the Maquis in line. Maybe something like that, maybe something else; but it sure would have given him a purpose.
... pilot episode of DS9, it was established that Sisko ASKED for a Bajoran national to be his second in command. And the conflicts between Sisko and Kira added depth and context to the show, for the season or two where they regularly butted heads. Now, I'm not saying that "Voyager" should have tried to exactly mirror the Sisko / Kira situation, because mere mimicry rarely works. However, it illustrates that a little conflict that makes sense, is often a good thing. One thing "Voyager" could have done differently is, the command structure of Voyager could have included a council, so that things weren't decided by the Star Fleet captain but by Federation and Maquis figures collectively. That's not the Star Fleet way of doing things, but that's kind of the point: Voyager, all alone in the Delta Quadrant and with a half Maquis crew, cannot reasonably function like Picard's Enterprise does.
all star trek shows had too much "fluff"!!! Voyager is the only franchise i can think of that even illustrates internal starfleet dramas that escalate. example the maquis, The equinox crew, Lon Suder.
Voyager is not Farscape. Also even the Maquis were from the federation at some point which means they SHOULD be professionals at getting along and working with each other.
Star Trek Enterprise Season 3 is what Voyager is SUPPOSED TO BE. -enterprise's condition gets worse and worse and by the end of the season its practically ripped apart and has to spend months just being repaired let alone upgraded -the crew goes from "explorers on a diplomatic mission" to "militaristic pirates doing ANYTHING they can to stop Earth from being destroyed" in Voyager they are still explorers by the end of the show and their ship (other than 2 cargo bays and a new sensor room) is completely unchanged.
Agreed! Season 3 was when enterprise came into it's own in my opinion. They transitioned from clueless wide eyed explorers to be more militaristic and just more realistic overall. The harder edge that Archer showed in season 4 as a direct result of season 3 was a nice touch that made the show more believable.
You know I agree with your analysis of voyager. I never really gave it deep thought bc I think I was too hungry for something star trek like to fill a nerd void. Tysmfs!
Swish Fish Belanna struggled with her Klingon heritage quite a bit Voyager. There's a lot of episodes about it, but by the end of the series she's much more content and comfortable in her own skin.
I'd go a lot further than this. Half of the crew were terrorists/freedom fighters at the start of the show. I think there was tremendous character development for Chokotay. As for nothing happening in the previous episode what about Ceska, and the different clan whose space they are travelling through? I'm not a huge Voyager fan, but what is this guy talking about. The ship is travelling through space and will never go back so once its gone it is gone. Voyager is far from perfect, but shows are made like this so that any episode can be watched in the future as a standalone. There will be some overall story arcs, and character arcs. I think that this guy is missing the whole point of any Star Trek, that it is about the characters and how they interact with each other, and they do grow, and you do learn more about them as time goes on, some leave, others come in, but there is friction between characters, there is a range of characters, which means some episodes can contain just Tom and Harry, with a bit of B'elanna, or one about Chokotay and his ancestry, or there are some about Seven of Nine, others about the Doctor, others about Janeway. I wish this guy had spoken more about all of the characters, but he couldn't because it would have invalidated a lot of his points. I wish he had done some research, scripted this, and actually mentioned some episodes by name. I do wonder if he has even watched a lot of the episodes, apart from doing a binge watch. There is a problem binge watching a lot of shows in one go, especially those that weren't made for Netflix, they blur into each other. As I said Voyager is not the best, it is probably one of the worst. I would put it down there maybe just above Enterprise and Deep Space Nine, but below The Next Generation and the Original Series.
I don't think anyone can argue that Janeway & especially Kes had changed as well by the end run. Also not everyone changes over a 7 year span so I think Kim & Chakotay represent those folks.
Which is funny, because the guys who did B5 pitched it to the studio that did Trek first, who liked the idea enough to make it the backbone for DS9. Everything from a station located by happenstance near mysterious hostile aliens to the station commander becoming a messiah figure to a primitive-yet-much-older-than-Earth religious society. DS9 had a better production value and the sets are more aesthetically pleasing than B5's dirty and dingy look, and overall messy Aliens style of 'if it's the future it's gotta be dirty and at least one smoke machine going in the background'.
There is actually only one set of episodes in the series that really stuck with me and that I remember in awe up to this day: It's the ones with Lt. Suder (Brad Dourif). He just appears this shortly, but oh my goodness is his character arc gutwrenching! So great writing ... ❤
If you made a movie called "Brad Dourif Eats a Pastrami On Rye" I would watch it. He's played so many great characters in such a compelling way, there's even a few stinker movies I've seen where I agree that it sucked "but Brad Dourif rocked it!"
Well, that was helped by Brad Dourif being in it. Everything is helped by Brad Dourif when he shows up. But he also represents a big problem that Steve didn't touch on and I wish he had; Voyager had a horrible problem introducing new characters, making us think they'd be around for a while, even sometimes bringing them back, only to F*CKING KILL THEM. Or at least never bring them back, ever. Jal Cullah was almost the Dukat of Voyager. But they killed him 2 seasons in. If Cullah had to go, they could have kept Seska, but no, they killed her, too. Hogan, Jonas, and yes, Suder. How about the Learning Curve guys? A whole episode devoted to helping them fit in with the crew and then...nothing. Okay, Chell shows up in one episode toward the end of the show but by then it's too little, too late. Carrey was an interesting foil for B'Elanna, so naturally past the first season we never see him again unless it's an episode set in the past, implying (even seeming to outright state at one point) that he had died offscreen. But here comes "Friendship One" which reveals he's been alive the entire time, only to...kill him. The officers who came aboard from the Equinox? Never seen or heard from again. Vorik, who at one point seemed primed to be that show's O'Brien? A grand total of eight appearances. He doesn't even appear at all in Season 6. The "lost sheep?" Celes gets one other very minor appearance, but the rest get bupkis. In fact, the only recurring characters guaranteed to come back are the ones borrowed from TNG (Barclay, Q, Troi, the Borg Queen).
Taste is subjective. I recognise many of _Voyagers_ shortcomings, but for me the series as a whole has some of the best episodes of any Star Trek. You mentioned the Q episode _Death Wish,_ which confronts some pretty heavy existential ideas. There are numerous episodes across each series which simply tower over the more run of the mill episodes. I understand your objections, and the only one that I'd really say is unfair is that its wrong of the show to include stories from other Star Trek series'. Its just an attempt to sew it into everything else, and I think its not necessarily due to lazy writing. Or, to be more accurate, I don't think the lazy writing problems on the show are best exemplified by that tendency. I absolutely agree that the character development is glacial, with notable exceptions like The Doctor, and 7of9.
Sure except it had not been made if Rodenberry was still alive. Old enough to remember that the whole war with the Dominion, going against utopian core Trek principle was cooked because of the DS9 creators jumped ship for creating Babylon 5 and a ratings war had to be waged.
Well lots of shows might not have been made - I can think of tons of reasons I could not have been born - and they are big possible ones - not tiny twists of fate which makes it almost infinite-
I disagree. There are episodes that fall out of the continuity, therefore one might get the impression there isn't any, but that's just not true. Tom Paris starts out as careless and then over time learns responsibility and becomes an "adult". He and B'elanna get married. She learns, over time, how to handle her temper. In the beginning she is basically a ticking bomb. But she learns restraint. Janeway gets more ruthless over time and learns how to live with the hard and sometimes unforgiving decisions a captain has to make all the time. She and Chakotay have this growing love that they keep in check from a certain point on, but is hinted at on a regular basis. From the beginning there is also that hint that Janeway is a woman who made the choice of her career over family life and being a mother, which she starts to regret... then she jumps at the opportunity to become a surrogate mother for Seven Of Nine. The Doctor has a great transformation from being a second Data around the crew to being actually insightful and caring. Neelix starts out as extremely unsure of himself and ends up being quite confident. The only one who really doesn't change is Tuvok. But that's okay, he's a freakin' Vulcan.
I found the static-state of the show really did kill my excitement for it. The use of previous Star Trek elements does mean Voyager feels like it borrows heavily from the older Star Trek series. I didn't mind it in certain cases though, like that one episode where they come across the two Ferengi exploiting a planet of less advanced people. The Voyager crew comes across some interesting threats that only ever show up once and never return. The Swarm for instance, a highly territorial species that attack as one big massive swarm. I could already see those guys being properly developed into like a Tyranid type threat, that swarm and raid their neighbours for resources and have a high birth rate to consistently replace their numbers. VOyager coming across dead worlds or destroyed fleets that the swarm ravaged. That time Voyager entered Dark Space, with no stars could have literally been an arc or short series of episodes dealing with threats in that region of space. That one episode where Voyager got trapped in like a void with other ships could probably have been lumped into that series as well. The Borg were definitely overused, it made sense to encounter them more, given this was the region of space they presumably originated in. But they diminished the threat of the Borg, we should have had more episodes where Voyager had to actively avoid or try to get around Borg vessels. Or even encounters that left lasting impacts, like say Harry Kim getting abducted and assimilated along with maybe 30% of the crew. Voyager changing its shape and design as the story progressed would have been brilliant, going from an exploration vessel to something closer to a scavenger/war vessel during the journey.
I think that the episode where Seven swapped bodies with the doctor was one of the funniest moments in the whole of Startrek, thanks to Jeri Ryan's brilliant acting.
How about Janeway’s highly questionable and completely inconsistent moral compass? “We must observe the prime directive! Oh, but not in this case but that’s my decision and you don’t have to agree with me, but you’d better not follow my example here because I still expect you to observe the prime directive whenever it’s up to you...”
The worst example of the lack of continuity in Voyager may be "Twisted", where it ends with a a lot of data about the area being dumped into their computer, and yet they continue to talk about not knowing anything about the area in following episodes.
The entirety of "Year of Hell" should have been what Voyager actually was. Why was the ship always in such good repair? How many times did it take fire damage, etc, and then it all got fixed off screen in between episodes? The ship really only has cosmetic changes from year one to year 7, and most of those are internal like the Borg enhancements. Where's the EXTERIOR changes? You're telling me they matched everything identically as they patched up damage? I'll give Enterprise THIS much -- more than once the ship got damaged, and that damaged continued until it got fixed (the show had other problems, but at least it addressed that). Imagine if they had an actual PLAN laid out for Voyager. Every time the ship took damage, they'd have to fix it. Eventually, there's major patchwork all over the ship, and they'd have to hold up for some time to sort it all. This starts off as mostly interior restructuring, but over time external changes become noticeable as well. Some plates are discoloured, mismatched and scavanged parts are fused to the hull, and the ship gradually changes as they make their way home picking up new technology or even just substituting in what happens to work. Actually make it ADDRESS what was supposed to be the part of the point of the show: a crew stranded far away from their usual supply lines, just struggling to make it back to familiar territory.
Remember that time the Videans, ripped *TWO GREAT GAPING HOLES IN VOYAGER'S HULL?!?!?* Yeah, if Starfleet officers got paid, Belana should have got a 300% salary raise and six months paid leave on Rysa for fixing that with not a single mark to show for it
I've watched the complete trek in chronological order several times. There are only 2 episodes I don't watch. The Enterprise Season finale is one of them. Trust me, the penultimate episode makes a better final episode.
One of the biggest criticisms I see of Voyager is that it didn't really utilize either it "Maquis and Starfleet working together" or "lost in the Delta quadrant with limited resources" premises. I'm susprise you didn't go into it that much. Despite its flaws I'm a huge Voyager fan and I credit that with the fact that u watched it for the first time as a kid. I had no benchmark to compare to so it never felt "watered down" or unoriginal by comparison. I didn't really think critically about the media I consumed at the time, I just took it as it was and enjoyed it. Part of what fuels my love for Voyager as adult is nostalgia. I grew to love the characters as a kid so when I rewstch the show as a adult I care about the stories regardless of how weakly they are written sometimes
This right here was supposed to be the premise of the show. All the PR in the early days of the show strongly hinted that it would take a couple seasons to integrate the Maquis and they would have to get really creative with addressing supply problems. Both of these issues got barely two episodes each over the course of the series.
The problem is that "supply problems" was a stupid premise to begin with. A starship, especially one like Voyager, doesn't leave space dock empty. In fact, it leaves with a device that makes parts and food (replicator). Then the premise is that Power / Energy is an issue... but wait, they have a Warp Core. The only reason the Enterprise visited a Starbase so often is because it's like going to get your oil changed every 3000 miles just to keep your warranty intact.
That assumes they can just replicate everything. I doubt they can replicate entire torpedoes, major parts of the warp drive, or entire sections of hull that have been phasered one too many times. They lost several shuttlecraft. Even if the parts were available, they'd have to be assembled somewhere. Voyager is a small ship. They have a shuttle bay, not a shipyard. In DS9 they mentioned the existence of "industrial replicators" in order to help an entire world rebuild its economic infrastructure. This would imply there are limits to replicator technology such that a bigger item might need a bigger replicator. As far as your oil change analogy, they never did that either. Picard's ship had to go through a radiation deep-clean in Season 5 or 6 due to years of high-warp usage. There was no visit to a dry-dock ever for Voyager. They should have burned out, clogged up, or otherwise broken every part of the ship by the end of the series.
yes but all the star trek franchises could have used less "fluff" and more intelligent drama. Huge Voyager fan here too. Love how Ensign Ayala is like in every episode.
Voyager's greatest flaw was that it resolved the tension between the 2 crews (Federation and Maquis) far too early. There could have been a wealth of character growth as the two crews learned to set aside their differences in pursuit of a common goal.
A lot of interpersonal conflict would have been nice, until the two crews realize they are truly alone in the Delta Quadrant and need to put aside their differences, work together, and survive. They have to become a family, even if it's a bitter pill to swallow initially.
Voyager is my favorite Trek series. BUT...I recognize and acknowledge the many, many, MANY flaws that Voyager has. Just because it's my favorite doesn't mean I'm blind to or ignorant of its problems. I know Voyager has many problems, and I'm not going to attempt to defend it by pulling random "but actually..." statements out of thin air. Voyager is one of the most flawed Trek series. It's bad...really bad. Hell, it was Voyager who brought us the disaster episode "Threshold", an episode so bad that THE ORIGINAL WRITERS have come out and stated that it never happened, that it shouldn't be considered canon. When the actual creators for a show are saying bad things about it, then you know it has serious problems. It's like Voyager had contracted an incurable disease, and rather than do the humane thing and put it down early on, they let the disease fester until in the end it simply died of old age. Voyager was bad. Very bad...and it is still my favorite Trek series. I guess you could call it a guilty pleasure of mine.
Roxann Dawson deserves some kinda All-Time Acting Achievement Award for delivering the line "Get the cheese to sick bay." in an actually believable deadpan. The true pinnacle of bringing drek to life. Bravo, bravo.
15:46 You mean like the finale? That was kind of a disappointment, "OH Great we're home." "Welcome back!" ROLL CREDITS!!!!! The three TNG era shows were hit and miss with Series finales, TNG did the best job of this by tying the finale back to the first episode and had just enough time with the characters after the climax to have a good send off. DS9 despite being the best show overall took a bit TOO long after the climax to wrap things up. They had an entire episode take place after the climax of the multi-part episode which consisted of everyone saying good bye to each other and most people leaving DS9 which in the end drug out too long and made it feel really sad overall. Then there's Voyager who wen the entire other direction which practically ended abruptly after the climax, which came probably 10 min or less before the end of the show. I'd argue that Voyager was the one that should have spent the longest coming down from the climax as this was a moment that they had been building to for the ENTIRE show everyone knew how Voyager would end, as you mentioned the characters had been through a lot and to not show them enjoying the fact that they're home seemed like kind of a cheap trick to pull at the every end.
Regarding the "Borrowed" issue - this is common in Star Trek and the ONLY series that doesn't do this (especially in terms of characters) is the Original Series. TNG brings at least four TOS characters in (McCoy, Spock, Scotty, and Sarek), DS9 brings in O'Brian and Worf, Enterprise brings in Dr. Soong (in ancestor form) as well as the Borg and the Ferengi, and Discovery brings in Sarek (again) and makes one of the main characters Spock's sister! The Borg were going to be an addition to the series anyway - we all knew it was going to happen because they were in the Delta Quadrant. I agree, they could have approached the Borg differently, but we're in their territory - it's natural that they were going to move from "mysterious stranger" to "next door neighbor". In general, I think you have to consider the period in which Voyager came out. The "dark and gritty" craze hadn't really come about yet (in the wider audience) and Paramount got a LOT of criticism from people about DS9 being "too dark" (and it looks downright cheerful by today's standards). They probably intended to give Voyager it's own two legs, but people demanded a more "TNG" type show, and that's what we got. I am among those that liked Voyager having a more TNG feeling because of the dramatic intenseness of DS9. As far as character growth, I think some characters DID grow (though not nearly DS9 level growth). I saw character growth in Janeway, Paris, and Torres (as well as The Doctor and Seven). Neelix had a couple small spurts of growth here and there, but instead of making the character more interesting, they made the character more bland. Janeway started as trying to be what she thought a Captain should be, to being a Captain of her own style. Her original style was rigid, disconnected, but I think she grew out of that into being more connected to her crew, taking personal interest and interacting with them. I think there were some very interesting development to see the different ways she coped with her guilt of her decision to strand the crew in the Delta Quadrent - even at one point admitting that being in constant turmoil allowed her to push her guilt aside to focus on the job. Tom grows from being a bitter ex con that doesn't feel like he fits to someone who builds a life, and a family, and isn't exactly looking forward to returning home because his life, as he knows it, is on Voyager. I think we get a lot of good explorations of Torres' anger and see how she continues to struggle with her anger and pain - and ultimately isn't cured... she still has it at the end of the series. I'm not trying to say there aren't problems with Voyager - the writing could get downright terrible in the first few seasons and I think they could have done a lot more with some of the secondary characters (Chakotay, Tuvok, Kim). I also remember what Voyager's strengths were - and chief among that is the theme of community. I loved Voyager for giving me another Hopeful version of the future - something lacking in today's Trek. As much as I LOVE DS9 and how much they did right, it wasn't that hopeful vision of the future that I liked in TOS, TNG and Voyager (and the first two seasons of Enterprise).
I'm old. 46. I've watched everything Star Trek in "real time" since the late 70's and some of you are so right to take that into context. I loved Voyager AND TNG. I sort of hated DS9. I'm too lazy to add much more but I saw plenty of growth in Voyager and really love the boldness of the series to have a female captain. You yutes don't understand how bold that was then. So many people are watching so many of these series and take them out of context of time. Nothing exists without context. As much as I'd like to continue to elaborate and debate all of this, I have a life to live. But I completely disagree with the main point of this video that the characters didn't grow. His whole premise that this show was different from the prior series in this respect is wrong. Both of the prior Star Trek series I would argue were roughly equally static and dynamic.
Can Star Trek, in general, stop with the whole “forehead aliens”, especially for the delta quadrant. It not a lore thing, it’s a CBS won’t give money to us just paste a forehead on a dude. The delta quadrant, expection of the borg, should not have “human aliens”. They all should have had stuff like the Gorn, tholins and Bree.
@@omnientertainment5852 True.. but that stuff can get expensive. In truth, animated (either "traditional" or Starship Troopers/Reboot/Beast Wars style) is easier to get more varied aliens.
Justice for Tuvix! #NeverForget ...To be less silly, I kinda disagree with you on Q, he was only in three episodes and his relationship with Janeway ended up being substantially friendlier. I enjoyed all the Q episodes, he gained a real maturity (while still being very much Q) character by the end of them. Great video though!
Most of the technobabble in Star Trek is pretty poor but feedback loop is the one that annoys me. A feedback loop is at least real but they overuse it to the point of cringeworthyness.
Well actually janeway changes a lot during the series. From a strict rule-following captain to a .. well timeline-altering captain. Ok, that happened in the last episodes, but well :) Yes, I know what you mean. The doctor was the true hero of the series. Like Data in TNG ;)
I agreed with you up until the technobabble/science part you think was too much. This for me is one of the cornerstones of Star Trek that makes it different to generic sci-fi. I think it added to the drama and suspense too, make it feel more realistic rather than just JJs "kicking ass"
The only reason Janeway is ANY different at the end than the beginning wasn't because the writing got any better, it's because Kate Mulgrew got fed up and eventually basically demanded more control over her character, or she would leave. The writing for her character had been all over the place to where she might as well have been about 6 different people. She started reigning that in once she got a little bit of control. So that allowed her character to change a small amount, noone else really did other than the doctor. Robert Beltran phoned it in. He hated the show, he hated his character. He liked his co-stars, but he still wanted off. So he kept demanding more and more money, hoping they would just kick him off the show. Instead, they kept giving it to him, at some point he just said screw it and phoned it in until the end.
It bugs me they were OK to pay him when he was trying get out yet Terry Farrell, a well liked character/actor, that wanted to carry on was offered basically an insult .
My biggest problem with Voyager is a bit different from yours. The characters are so inconsistent. It's not just being static, but characters will be written very differently from episode to episode, but not as an example of character growth. Janeway is the most talked about example, but really all but 7 and the Doctor do weird shifts.
I personally love Voyager and as a Kid it was my favorite Star Trek show because it was my first. And You can't undo that ever, no matter how much I learn about the Problems the Show has.
Just completed a 2 month binge and I mostly agree with the assessment of this video. Also, still enjoyed because its still Star Trek. I have now completed all series. Onward to Discovery.
Year of Hell was one of the biggest dropped balls ever. That needed to be an entire season. The best characters were Tuvok, the Doctor, and Seven. Seven falling for Chakotay in the last few episodes is just soooooo out of left field. That should have been built up over the course of an entire season for it to have meaning. Seven and the Doctor/Tuvok are more believable. More development between Tuvok and Jameway that fleshed her out as a character. Her writing was insanely inconsistent. The integration of the Maquis should have been better developed. Cheska should have been a much longer term villain. The show needed it's own big bad. What made DS9 standout was the Dominion threat and the development of the Bajoran and Cardassian. Something like that. There should have been a Delta quadrant empire. I find it hard to believe that Voyager was one of the most advanced ships in that region. So many missed opportunities.
Naaah, a two parter for the Year of Hell is fine. What were they going to do... have the brooding Krenim captain chase them for an entire season? It was a fine and creative adaptation of the captain Nemo story, but it would have worn out it's welcome rather quickly. Enterprise tried the same trick and I don't think that ended to well for them.
Voyager could have been, and was originally supposed to be, a return to the core concept of Star Trek ie. a great journey across space (a star trek), rather than lots of pratting about boldly going on diplomatic missions to where plenty of people have gone before. While, I suppose, they did accomplish that, they accomplished little else. The reason Ron Moore quit the show is because he'd been promised Voyager wouldn't be like TNG with the crew living in luxury with replicators that could cater their every need etc. etc., but rather a crew stranded far away from civilisation and having to survive like proper explorers on the frontier, and that promise was not kept. Despite having the perfect setting for telling lots of interesting stories about a crew on a great journey through the unknown, the writers decided to bombard us with multiple irrelevant holodeck episodes and of course, the tedious overdone time travel episodes. Holodeck episodes are for the most part completely boring, especially when both the title and the underlying concept of the show promise us stories about a great journey through space, not stories about recreational facilities and their quirks.
Captain Andy you mention ron moore leaving, but didn't tie in BSG. that show is a pretty direct response to voyager. real character arcs, real stakes, real deaths, lingering damage on the ships that matters long term.
VOYAGER's problem was that it was BORING. Actors and actresses that did not act like living people. Hell, the holodoctor had more character than most of the humans (thanks Robert Picardo). The show had good to even great ideas, but it all comes down to the execution.
Except BSG isn't Star Trek, despite attempts to the contrary (looking at you Discovery). Star Trek is about how humans have evolved and become better because we're part of a larger community. BSG has more drama, but it's about how we're all still jerks and never learned to grow beyond what we are (or something like that... I guess they were a prequel to us or something like that?).
the show itself played it really safe. it was scared to take risks and it knew that the format of the episode of the week worked best because well it worked for the orginal, it worked for tng and it was working for deep space 9. like enterprise for example took a big risk with season 3 i think and idk if i payed off or not. but it just felt like the damage was done and tides were turning with well what tv could be at the time and enterprise was kind of a relic and this is why i think discovery works because despite what people say i think discovery is the star trek we all need just like quite frankly i think the new star wars movies are the star wars movies we need and this is also why i think the orvile works as i think it provides an alteruntive yet new experience to star trek type shows. if you dont want a star trek that takes risks the orvile is a great way to experience the glory days of tng(obviously the show does have flaws) star wars star trek and the orvile are not perfect by any means but each provides us with what we want and may kind of need right now in terms of sci fi entertainment.
I think Enterprise was meant to be that was, too. Getting back to basics with a technologically inferior ship, that was out classed in an unknown universe. That didn't last long, either.
The doctor isn't static, he goes from a pretty rigid computer program, to a unique individual, learning about music, dating, individuality... Speaking of individuality, seven of 9 went from a borg, to a rude human, to almost personable. And how about harry kim, from a brat, to a more responsible married man, even knocking up a klingon.
thats why I think of voyager as a very unbalanced show. The stuff with the doctor and to a lesser extent Seven was gold, but Harry Kim, Tuvok and Chakotay were bland as fuck
Shitty, Lazy Writing.... Crew member: "Sir something bad is happening" Janeway: "Override" (Which never works, not once did that ever work) Crew Member: "Unresponsive" Janeway: "Switch to Auxiliary Power!" (again was always a failure) Crew member: "Auxiliary Power is off line. and I'm losing control of Blah, blah" Janwway: "cut power to that Blah blah and reroute it to Blah blah" Crew Member: "done but we are too late! Blah blah blah has/is blah blah Janeway: "Transporters!" Crew member: Cant get a lock/Offline/too much interference/damaged Janeway: Tractor Beam! Crew Member: "Not functioning/Damaged/too far away/not enough Power/they have gone to warp" Always the same conversation in every episode all those tools at their disposal and it never works as intended, and yet Janeway tries and tries and tries over and over again in every episode.
I'm going to dislike that, because you forgot to add the part where Janeway ejects the Warp Core at somebody/something she does not feel that pleasantly regarding.
“Can’t get a lock” was always my favorite. Like unless they said one of the others right after you just have to assume there’s no legit explanation, it just DOESNT WORK. 😂😂😂
you have described every star trek episode ever. you have to enjoy science and realize or google all the things that star trek has predicted would happen and now have actually happened.
*Ensign Ensign:* "Captain, we have a difficult moral dilemma." *Janeway:* "I won't accept that, Ensign. I need a solution without any meaningful stakes or emotional fallout." *Ensign Ensign:* "Well, we could tech the tech. It's a billion to one. But if we can quantum modulate a tachyon field through the deflector array there will be no lasting repercussions of any kind. It will be like all of this never happened." *Janeway:* "DO IT!"
The biggest sin of Voyager was definitely how they betrayed the budding romance between the Doctor and Seven of Nine and then, out of nowhere, they shoehorn in a relationship between her and Chakotay. What the hell were they thinking? Not to mention, Chakotay is one of the dullest characters ever in a Star Trek series.
Dead Alewives If there was ever a redundant character it was him. I believe he was originally set up as an antagonist for Janeway, a Baltar figure if you will. But than they wimped out.
Agree!!! Where did that come from? Everyone knew and I mean everyone knew Chakotay and Janeway loved each other and were devoted to each other and their crew. Hooking up with Seven? What the heck people?
The actor who played Chakotay brought that up many times, and they ignored him. Rumor is, that since they never wrote stories to truly develop his character, he started playing the character as blandly as possible as well.
You've made a fair assessment of Voyager's shortcomings. It makes me think of what could have been done if they looked at the story over say 5 years. Take Harry for instance, he starts as a newbie ensign and ends as a bitter 2nd in command. How did he get there. Shoot the entire crew would have ptsd at the very least and yet bonded in way only those that have been in active duty for a long time can know. Yes opportunities lost.
The hardest episode to watch was the one when they found that other starfleet ship that had gone rogue to exploit aliens for warp speed. It was like they said “wow look at how crazy and corrupt being lost for a long time can make you! But we aren’t going to do anything like that with the Voyager crew”.
I look to that episode as what could have been for the series, actually consequences and evolution. I would have liked that they started with the premise "everything and everyone will come back to the alpha quadrant changed and much of it, not good" and tell that story.
@@Nucklechose They had that twice. We had the "Year of Hell" double episode, where they had a whole storyline where things went wrong on voyager and there was consequences, but they made that a time-travel episode so everything got reset at the end, and then they had the meeting with the Excelsior, where the captain had made the opposite decision to Janeway, and we got to see what things *might* have been like if we'd had the *dark Voyager* story.
The heavy thing that Voyager treated with the most jarring levity and casualness is when much of the main cast got assimilated by the Borg - as part of a plan of theirs! They wanted that! They had some super-science for keeping their minds intact while they infiltrated the collective, but they had no idea whether it would work or how far they'd be separated, and that very super-science guarantees they were fully conscious for the full body horror of the forced surgery. Even the usually episodic TNG gave Picard an episode to recover from that kind of trauma.
I definitely agree Voyager was Trek’s weakest series. The majority of characters were static as you say with only the Doctor and Seven getting any real development. But the fact is they were practically this series’ Data, as now that there were two characters who are aspiring to be more human. The majority of other characters aren’t all that appealing themselves. Harry Kim the Yes Man, Tuvok the bore, B’Elanna, the angry half-breed, Chakotay becoming nothing more than a background character, and Janeway herself, who claims to be the by the book Starfleet captain, but is more than willing to violate the Prime Directive, even when enforcing it. The fact is, Voyager Jumped the Shark in season 2, particularly with the whole Warp 10 thing resulting with Paris and Janeway becoming a pair of salamanders, which was similar to TNG’s crew devolving into primitive lifeforms in “Genesis”. At least with that series, they waited until the final season to have that and other dumb episodes. Voyager continues with its stupidity in that same second season with the whole Paris bad boy act to expose the spy, which resulted in Seska and the Kazon becoming more cartoonish and never becoming a serious threat to the crew, even when they took over the ship. The end result was they’d be stupid enough to lose their prize and are never seen again. And you even have to admit the majority of Voyager villains were terribly dumbed down, even the Borg. If the latter were anything like the Borg on TNG, Voyager certainly wouldn’t have survived the Delta Quadrant. The series was definitely too dependent on time travel and the reset button. And they seemed to somehow have a limitless stock of shuttles and torpedoes even though it was stated otherwise. The series was an overall disappointment as it just didn’t have the quality story that DS9 or Enterprise did, even though the latter ran for only 4 seasons.
I don't think it's shitty writing to choose not to show something, even if you find the reason questionable. Personally I don't think the ceremony itself is necessarily that important to see anyway. Even in real life I've never entirely gotten the importance so many people place on the wedding itself. The change in a couple's status quo, their paradigm shift, that's what matters; who they are before and after. We don't need to see the "I do"s twice. I think the producers were right; that would have been boring.
Remember Neelix and Kes' breakup happened off screen too. In the episode before they mention their having broke up she had been possessed and the person possessing her broke up with Neelix. So that combined with off screen break up is just really confusing and bad writing.
@@wontshutup1144 Must have been. If they wanted to please the fans Neelix would have been the one written out. He was definitely the scrappy of the show.
I think my two biggest problems with Voyager are: 1) It has this huge setup with a mixed Starfleet/Maquis crew, which reportedly was in the works for years before they launched it. Like, the Maquis were introduced in Next Gen partially to help prepare for this storyline. Whether that's true or not, it's a very interesting premise that could make the feel of the show really new and different. But, it pretty much doesn't. There are a few episodes relating to problems with integrating the two crews, but for the most part they just become normal Starfleet and stay that way. It's like they had this great idea but then wouldn't commit to it. 2) It's the worst show in terms of internal consistency.
Its internal consistency was so much that I could almost guess the theme of the next episode based on the little snippet they give at the beginning of each episode. Yeah, I'd say it was a bit too consistent.
Regarding Chakotay, you can do the same thing RedLetterMedia did with the Phantom Menace characters. Try to "describe Chakotay, without saying what they look like, what kind of costume they wore, or what their profession/role was". The better you can describe a character, the more "character" they have. Now try it... Uh... Chakotay is...calm? But not really? He's... I don't know. I can't really think of anything. Now describe Picard. He's thoughtful, intelligent, kind of "old fashioned" with a love of archaeology, history and philosophy etc etc. I could go on for quite a while but you get the picture. This is the main difference between the "static" Voyager and TNG. While they were both wrapped up for the most part at the end of every episode, in TNGs case, the character traits were far reaching. They didn't just do an episode where Picard does some archaeology, it was a recurring thing throughout the entire series. The episodes they did in TNG, even when they introduced some new thing (ie: Picard's home on the vineyard in France, his relationship with his brother and their different life philosophies etc) it made complete sense with what you already knew of the character. In Voyager, they just do stuff like you mentioned: Oh by the way Chakotay is a boxer.
Chakotay is somebody who tends to be at the fringes of society--but not by his own fault, but because society tends to be at odds with the stuff he is about. This is not due to what he is into is wrong--so much as this is one of the issues with society. He comes across as a bit like a man-servant similar to Qi-Quay(sp?) but for some reason moved into being a criminal via societies oversight. Picard is just some bald guy who is obsessed with Tea--Earl Grey and acts like he is better than everybody.
Personally, I think the biggest problem with Chakotay is the fact that they gave him a facial tattoo. With that...the writers no longer felt the need to give him a distinctive character trait...it was already written all over his face...literally. Without the tattoo, the writers would have been forced to do 'something' that would make the character stand out like...I don't know...make him interesting or something. The other problem was that they established that he was North American Indian...and then never got into what tribe. Huh? They touted him as the first American Indian character in Trek (completely forgetting about Ensign Walking Bear from the Animated Series - an episode that actually got more history and characterization for that character in 22 minutes than Voyager did for Chakotay in 7 seasons - Walking Bear's tribal affiliation was mentioned. Not suprising since the episode was written by an American Indian writer). Voyager (Boringager)'s writers on the other hand got all politically correct and virtue signaled by saying, "Let's add an American Indian as a main character!" and then got lazy by refusing to do any research into the various tribes and customs to build a back story for the character and instead treated all American Indians as interchangeable. In its own way that is almost as bad as the old Hollywood stereotypes of Indians as savages who want to scalp all white men and rape all white women. There is as much difference from one tribe of American Indians to another as there is between the average Irishman and the average Slav (language, customs, traditions, etc).
I don't really have much to add to what Steve and PwnySlaystation01's already stated very well, other than that (in my opinion) Harry Kim, Tuvok and Chakotay seemed to be the weakest core characters in Voyager, if not Trek in general. Very "blah" characters. As Billy Connolly would say, they were "beige" to the extreme. I just never felt like I was given any reason to care about them.
PwnySlaystation01 For picard you forgot arrogant. Initially, Picard favors protocol over professionalism and people. For example, when picard frantically yells that Wesley Crusher a child is on the bridge? (oh no red alert?) Although, in the final seasons, TNG does a better job of making him NOT so one-dimensional by showing his family life and the cause of his artificial heart. Chakotay's first love paleontology takes a back seat to the injustice Chakotay perceives. (episode "One Small Step") Chakotay= favors people (the big picture) over protocols. Additionally, Chakotay favors justice over protocols. For Example, its the reason he joined the Maquis. Chakotay is loyal to a fault, (again to people not protocols) even if it means saving someone from themself. For example, the only times that Chakotay clashes with Janeway, B'elanna, or the other Maquis is because he felt they were being self-destructive, non inclusive of crew members (elitist) or jeopardising the safety of the crew. Every argument chakotay ever had with Janeway is over the safety of people. Chakotay respects the chain of command not because its a protocol but because when Chakotay agreed to combine the two crews under Janeway's command, Chakotay knew it was the best option for his crew's survival so far away form the Alpha Quadrant. The tiny Val Jean would not carry his crew home. Technically, neither did Voyager, Janeway had to change history in the episode, "End Game" since she lost most of her crew. I can easily visualize Chakotay going on a mission to sacrifice his life for the lives of his crew. (episode "maneuvers") Since Chakotay is loyal to people over protocols. I can easily visualize Picard ordering someone to their death, while Picard sits on the bridge with his legs crossed, since Picard is loyal to protocols over people. (Tasha Yar) Picard is a boss, Chakotay is a leader. Chakotay is spiritual in an extremely technological age. Since Chakotay knows that no one person has all the answers. Chakotay started out as a child that was practically an atheist but has life experiences that can still not be explained with technology. Picard is authoritarian and arrogant when he gives orders. Chakotay is calm and respectful when he gives orders. However, if you want to break the chain of command with insubordination, Chakotay will go toe-to-toe and blow-for-blow with you. Picard will call security. (Although Picard will hit his brother after being bullied for a very long time) (I got a semi chubby when Sisko forced Picard, Sisko's superior, to be respectful and humble) I would take an individual with Chakotay's character on my team, any day, over an individual with Picard's character.
My biggest issue is that Janeway knew about the wormhole in the Gamma Quadrant and thought "Hey, let's go in the opposite direction" SERIOUSLY who thinks I know a way home but let's not use it because plot.
All of Steve's criticisms are fair and I agree with them, but I still can't dislike Voyager because it's the show that got me hooked into Star Trek when I didn't even know what Star Trek was. And it was one of the (widely considered) bad episodes too, "Fair Haven". DS9 is my favorite now but my heart always will have a place for Voyager.
I came in almost fuming and after watching, I am perfectly fine with the criticisms. I personally don't really mind any of the named issues, but I would accept they are there for sure. However I personally think VOY managed to be consistently pretty fine, rather than fluctuation between dips and masterpieces of other shows, which definitely gives me the impression that VOY is a rather stable show, compared to others.
Wasn't the entire point of the final episode how different Janeway was from the opening episodes? Initial Janeway: We're staying stuck forever far away from home because we need to do what's right by people we really don't know. Final Janeway: I'm going to commit heinous time travel violations and rewrite history just to help my people get home faster.
Eh, I never really cared about Kes one way or the other. Neelix was freaking annoying from episode one right up to the finally. What I will say though is I didn't really care as much when Kes left the show as I did when Tasha or Jadzia left their shows. Also is it just me or is it only leading females that die in Trek? I mean sure red shirts die all the time but no leading male has ever died and stayed dead.
Actually, the fact that you 'know' that everything will be all right at the end of the episode is what I really like about Star Trek Voyager (and often in general). It can give you excitement about the story line, without an underlying feeling of anxiousness about the outcome. Which is a nice respite from real life sometimes :) Although some slow character development is nice, I often disliked if Star Trek series became too focused on feelings etc (almost like a soap) and less focused on events/adventures etc.
star-trek definitely leans more toward Disney endings. happy endings. there is nothing wrong with that. its like comfort food. I love Voyager, but i Also love BSG, a show that makes you feel that all of humanity is just F*****
Great channel! I biggest problem occurred in the first 15 minutes of the very pilot. One minute Voyager is battling the Maquis. Then, BOOM, they are in the Delta Quadrant. Then, BOOM, they are one big happpy crew. All conflict was resolved in the first 30 minutes at the most. I would have love to see that relationship grow over at least a whole season.
Each cast of characters for each Star Trek series is usually for me the central thing I gravitate to with a series. DS9's crew feels almost like family to me, I find the characters so interesting and diverse and entertaining. One of them, Kira Nerys, is my favorite Trek character period. Only Voyager fails when it comes to the characters for me. I just don't care for these people by and large, they bore me. The only character that I find remotely interesting is a hologram.
Kira is amazing. She's self-aware of how much she's changed since the beginning of the series, to the point where pilot episode Kira couldn't have even imagined becoming series finale Kira. And none of it feels forced or inorganic.
Nerys' faith is beautiful. Additionally, Kira carries her faith in such a technological age without being arrogant or trying to convert anyone, wow! Kira knows her truth but allows people to be themselves, that is beautiful. Even with Ki Winn, Kira only advised Ki Winn because Ki Winn asked her too. but did not argue with her when ki winn would not step down. Ki Winn, for example, is arrogant by demeaning everyone by calling them "child" wtf. implying they did not have faith or that their faith was adolescent in comparison to her own. anyway as awesome as Kira is, I feel the complete opposite Voyager is the only Star trek i even bother revisiting on netflix.
