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What's Up with Specific Impulse? 

Eager Space
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Specific Impulse is a common measure of rocket engine efficiency, but remains mysterious. What controls the specific impulse an engine creates? Why are some engines so much better than others? And why does it have the unit seconds?
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24 июл 2024

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Комментарии : 39   
@alrightydave
@alrightydave 2 года назад
Wow that was amazing Not as flashy as Tim Dodd’s video but even more informative and technical I managed to understand most of this surprisingly, thanks a lot for making this - I’ve binged watched 8 of your videos now and have to say your channel is very good
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
Thanks. Tim sets the bar quite high.
@blairseaman461
@blairseaman461 Месяц назад
I googled specific impulse for dummies. This video is at the top of the list. Most helpful for me to understand the practicality (or lack thereof) of hydrogen as a rocket fuel. Hydrogen seems to be difficult to wrestle and corral in dummy speek. Thanks
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace Месяц назад
Yes. The tank size is a big issues and it's hard to build a high-thrust engine because it's so hard to pump a lot of it.
@Corvid
@Corvid 2 дня назад
And so ended the Teal Era of Eager Space!
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace День назад
The problem with the teal was that rockets look really cool with transparent backgrounds when the final background is black and really stupid when the final background is not black.
@lazarus2691
@lazarus2691 2 года назад
Raptor Vacuum would be a better comparison against the RS-25, since it's also a more vacuum-optimized engine that can still function at sea level. It's Isp is ~300s at sea level and 378s in vacuum; the RS-25's corresponding values are both about 1.2x higher. The reasons the difference is smaller than the factor of 1.35 suggested by the difference in exhaust weight are twofold. First, as you stated, Raptor runs a significantly higher chamber pressure. Second, it also runs hotter; by about 200k.
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
Good point.
@Corvid
@Corvid 2 года назад
Fantastic, spot on for those of us who... love the idea of rocketry.. but really don't have the brainpower for truly understanding it :D
@merlin9657
@merlin9657 2 года назад
Great explanation for such a complex topic! I wanna say something about 28:48 : How I see it, whilst your molecuar weight would decrease, at the same time your combustion chamber tempereature (and possibly pressure) would also decrease, since you would move even further away from the stochiometric mixture ratio. Combining these factors I think you would actually end up with lower Isp. (If you think about it, you are just reducing energy per unit mass of your propellant when going to lower Oxidizer to Fuel ratios here). Also, when comparing the RS25 with the nuclear thermal engine at 40:12, I think other factors could be the combustion chamber pressure or the expansion ratio, or maybe also looking at the combustion chamber temperature vs. just the exhaust temperature. But yeah I'm also not too sure how to explain that difference in Isp :)
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
Thanks for the comments. That's an interesting question. Changing the mixture ratio is going to change the molecular weight and - probably - change the combustion temperature as well, and it's not clear which one wins. If you are throttling down anyway, however, it may be worthwhile to do it in a way that increases your ISP slightly. Just to make it more complex, if you are carrying extra methane so you can do that, you'll lose some delta-v because methane is more dense. On the NTR example, you may indeed be correct; it may be that the packaging for the core means that it's hard to get a nozzle throat small enough and that therefore limits your expansion ratio and Isp. But my real guess there is that it's probably more of a combustion pressure thing; NTR are inherently expansion cycle engines and that puts a limit on how much power you can reasonably get to drive your pumps, and hydrogen is a pain to pump because its density is so low.
@debott4538
@debott4538 22 дня назад
Side-Note on Raptor running fuel rich: When watching a Starship launch, it is quite interesting to see that there is quite a bit smoke (or soot, I guess) coming off the exhaust. It becomes rather obvious from this, that not all the exhaust is either CO2 or H2O or indeed unburned methane, but some amalgamation of Carbons, too. Chemical reactions are rarely instantaneously perfect. I think, you don't quite see this effect as clearly with other common propellant types: pure Hydrolox cant have smoke therefore no visible impurities, kerolox obviously has lots smoke, solid fuels obvioulsy are pretty much nothing but smoke. Hypergolics, like hydrolox, tend to burn nicely into gasses, too, but I think you sometimes can see unburned particles (potentially from the pre-burner?), like on Proton or some of the Long Marches.
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 22 дня назад
I think they are still limiting thrust on takeoff which generally reduces the cleanness of the burn and they may also be deliberately burning more fuel. The fact that you can see the inside of the nozzle during ascent it a good sign they have a very clean burn.
@debott4538
@debott4538 22 дня назад
@@EagerSpace The only explanation for smoke is methane gets turned into carbons, no? Are you saying they might be able to avoid that? They would have to burn even hotter for that, I imagine. Not much historic documentation on how mathalox engines perform, is there? :)
@debott4538
@debott4538 22 дня назад
Thanks for this video. This is really awesome! There is one thing that I don't understand/ I am not satisfied with the given explanation about molecular mass directly correlating to Isp: In you comparison between the RS-25 and Raptor you explain that one reason why the RS-25 SL Isp is not much higher than Raptors, is because the RS-25 is optimized for use in vacuum and not for sea level. Of course, I agree with that overall, however, I think this is not the deciding factor in this discrepancy, because: a) the RS-25 over-expanded nozzle is rather uniquely designed as a sustainer engine that can avoid flow separation at sea level while maintaining its low gas exit pressure. Although I admit, I am not sure whether this benefits or worsens the Isp (flow separation is more of an issue for stability, not performance, I think). Theoretically, I would think lower exhaust pressure is even a benefit, no? b) I don't think there is any other conventional hydrolox engine with better SL Isp than the RS-25, even in concept. But I might be wrong on that. I found a Nasa document, stating the theoretical best Isp for Hydrolox would give 389.3s, which is still only 1,17 times better than Raptor, far from the expected 1.35. (Link to the document below, page 20, provided YT doesn't delete it again) c) also when we compare the RS-25 and Raptor Vac. version for their Vac. Isp we get 452.3s / 380s = 1,19. So it's again quite off the expected 1,35. Overall, your comparison/explanation doesn't add up. Or maybe I just don't understand it. To me it seems that hydrogen is just inherently not as good at sea level as it is in vacuum? But I am again not sure why that would be the case. Something about hydrogen exhaust velocity suffering from atmospheric pressure maybe? Or is it just that Raptor is a bad comparison, because of it's ridiculous chamber pressure? [Disclaimer: I am writing this comment before watching the section abut the RD-180 and everything after, so there is a chance that I'll eat my words in few minutes from now. Just wanted to get these thoughts off me before continuing :)] [Edit after finishing the video: I think it becomes very clear that molecular mass is very important but by far not the the sole factor for Isp. As correctly stated in the video, cycle types and ambient pressure optimization also play a big role. I think what explains the discrepancy between RS25 and Raptor best is indeed their difference in chamber pressure. If both ran at the same pressure, then we'd likely see results similar in difference to their respective exhaust gas masses. But with Raptor running at such high pressure it can overcome some of the disadvantages that methalox has when compared to hydrolox. You touch some of that in the section about RS-25 vs. SNRE, where RS-25 shows unexpectedly good results, probably due to its higher temperature and pressure. This just wasn't clear in the RS-25 vs. Raptor comparison. :) Or maybe I just got it wrong altogether?]
@debott4538
@debott4538 22 дня назад
Link to the Nasa document: ntrs.nasa.gov/api/citations/19860018652/downloads/19860018652.pdf
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 22 дня назад
This is above my level of expertise. I will note that the RS-25 and RD-0120 are pretty similar in their performance specs despite a higher chamber pressure in the Rd-0120. If I had to guess, I'd bet that the interaction with the air is more lossy with the lighter exhaust particles, but that's barely a guess.
@edward_jacobs
@edward_jacobs 2 года назад
Love the video! One question I have is why not make all chemical propulsion systems with hydrogen if you can get such high ISP out of them? Supposedly you could get whatever thrust you wanted just by increasing mass flow, so why bother messing with RP-1 at all?
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
Good question... I really need a whole video on this - I talk about it a little bit here (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-DiH5Hg21W8E.html) and here (ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-LT0yTIUkNwU.html) - but here's the story... We care about delta-v because it tells us how far we can go with a given stage. The Isp that we get is one factor of the delta-v, but there's another factor that we care about that has to do with the weight. Basically, it depends on the ratio of the mass of the stage when it is full of propellant to the mass when it is empty. The higher that ratio is, the better the delta-v is, so what you want is to be able to stuff as much propellant mass into your stage as possible. RP-1 is very good at this because it is very dense. Hydrogen is very poor at this because it is not dense at all, so you need to build bigger tanks which are heavier, and that hurts the delta-v. For first stages, RP-1 really is the king; a less efficient engine like the merlin is about as good as an advanced engine like the raptor just because the difference in density, and methane is much denser than hydrogen. The other factor is that it is hard to make high-thrust hydrogen engines because you have pump a lot of volume in hydrogen to get much mass - which means your turbopumps need to be huge. The SSME fuel turbopump requires a 75,000 horsepower pump, while the LOX pump is only about 22,000 horsepower. Put these together, and this is why we don't see pure first stages powered with hydrogen - the vast majority require solid rocket motors. The exception is the Delta IV Heavy, but because of the disadvantages of hydrogen it has a small payload for its style. There are some other disadvantages to hydrogen - LH2 is extremely cold and therefore hard to deal with - you need insulation on your tanks. It also likes to leak out because the molecules are so small, and there's this thing known as "hydrogen embrittlement" where the hydrogen molecules get into your metal and weaken it, so you need to make good material choices...
@theOrionsarms
@theOrionsarms 2 года назад
Absolut size of the nozzle of two different engines could be different, even if you compare engines with similar power , what matters is expansion ratio (that between nozzle neck hole and end of the bell), and density of the propellant or gasses exhaust, raptor and RS-25 work on different pressures(and with different propellants) , so isn't weird that that with higher chamber pressure is smaller. Other wise, I say is a good and detailed explanation of how those things work.
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
Darn. You are absolutely correct; that would have been a much better way to discuss it. The RS-25 has an expansion ratio of 69:1 and the raptor is supposedly 40:1, so at least the point still stands.
@kareemsalessi
@kareemsalessi Месяц назад
Mr. Rocket Sciense::: what minimum TWR, and acceleration, does a rocket need to launch just 200 meters up???
@PetesGuide
@PetesGuide 15 дней назад
40:13 Nitpick: the degree symbol is used with Celsius, but never with Kelvin. I’m not sure why that rule was created. Anybody know?
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 15 дней назад
Kelvin is the name of the unit rather than the name of the scale. Fahrenheit and Celsius tell us the degree to which something is cold or hot, while Kelvins give us an absolute measure.
@alrightydave
@alrightydave 2 года назад
17:44 SSME essentially had aerospike performance while having a bell nozzle
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
What do you mean? Like any other engine with a nozzle, the SSME had the perfect nozzle at one ambient pressure and a less-than-optimal nozzle at different pressures.
@topsecret1837
@topsecret1837 2 года назад
@@EagerSpace No, it was remarkably overexpanded at sea level and used a slight change in curve at the bottom of it, a sort of ‘lip’ which kept the exhaust flow attached to the walls. An extremely clever way for them to reduce exit pressure even further than what was possible. Otherwise, the exhaust flow would detach, leading to combustion instability which could damage backflow that would have damaged the engine. A distinction between the disadvantages of overexpanded nozzles vs underexpanded.
@whitedrawf
@whitedrawf 2 года назад
I believe that in case of the LH2 Nuclear thermal engine the H-H bond actually gets broken under the extreme heat so the reaction is H2 -> [Delta T] 2H and the weight of the exhaust is 1 g/mol
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
I'm not sure that's an advantage; the disassociation takes quite a bit of energy and that's energy that doesn't go to the kinetic energy of the exhaust. But yes, it may come out as atomic hydrogen. That's one of the things that I left out during the simplification... You don't get just water and hydrogen out of the RS-25, and you don't just get CO2/Water/CH4 out of the raptor.
@dsdy1205
@dsdy1205 2 года назад
NTRs actually run cooler than an equivalent hydrolox engine due to the already much lower molecular mass of the hydrogen exhaust, so there isn't going to be a lot of dissociation as is. However, deuterium hydride (basically a hydrogen molecule with one atom swapped out for deuterium) has a remarkably low bond strength, such that dissociation is cheaper and still provides a significant performance boost.
@aaaaa5272
@aaaaa5272 3 месяца назад
50:58 Everybody understands Isp?!? Nope, that's not true. We just get used to it.
@aaaaa5272
@aaaaa5272 3 месяца назад
How difficult can it be to count to 10? 18:10
@kareemsalessi
@kareemsalessi Месяц назад
47:00 NASA FAIRYTALES
@jacobosmit8128
@jacobosmit8128 2 года назад
earth's gravity = 9.8 m/s^2
@topsecret1837
@topsecret1837 2 года назад
The ‘no practicality’ of aerospike engines is often told but never proven, as a result of the cowardice of Aerojet Rocketdyne in refusing to continue designing them after the mid 90s. SpaceX may take advantage of its advantages with Starship due to the fact that Full flow engine cycle has some key similarities to another engine cycle often mentioned as benefiting the most from aerospikes: the Dual Expander. Both engine cycles use the bell as a contributor to heating the fuel. Both run their heated propellants through turbines before injection. But most importantly: both inject their circulating propellants as a gas (most of it in FFSC does pump out as liquid, unless I’m wrong.). I suspect future Raptor designs will employ altitude compensating nozzles as a means to reduce weight overall for all nozzles on the Ship (having a common engine instead of two altitude specialized variants should reduce weight and complexity, hypothetically, even if some weight is added to some nozzles and weight deducted from the others). It may very well make sense for lunar and Martian variants especially if they can be designed with smaller nozzles than a vacuum bell.
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
I think aerospikes are by definition not proven to be practical until somebody develops a practical engine. They may be great but I'm not holding my breath as they've been talked about for years and no engines have shown up. We've seen a few small companies try them but once again, nobody has gotten to production. Aerospike looks great from a nozzle perspective - you end up with a nice ISP the whole way up. But I'm not sure it's very good from the "thrust per unit area" perspective, and that's something that SpaceX has optimized for.
@merlin9657
@merlin9657 2 года назад
The exhaust velocity formula seems to be missing a factor of two in the sqrt? I looked at the wikipedia page of de laval nozzles for reference: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Laval_nozzle
@EagerSpace
@EagerSpace 2 года назад
There are different versions of the equation with different levels of complexity in them, and I chose one that seemed to make the most sense. For my use - looking at the relative contributions to exhaust velocity - I *think* differences like that aren't meaningful. But I could be incorrect on that.
@merlin9657
@merlin9657 2 года назад
@@EagerSpace Yeah the difference isn't meaningful in that it doesn't change the relations between the variables and thus wouldn't change your explanation at all. Still, just for the sake of correctness, I would leave that factor in or just write v~ instead of v=. Or maybe some other source proves me wrong and there are edge cases where that factor of 2 falls away ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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