I think Green Sun’s Zenith with dryad arbor in the deck should have been mentioned. It’s probably one of the best if not the best spell that ramps (outside of fast mana) because of the versatility.
@@Tspang42for good reason too, it’s fallen off so hard since board wipes just keep getting better and better even in upcoming set looks like a 3 mana wrath coming
I average less than 10 ramp pieces per deck for sure. I think I’m usually around 8. I essentially want to hit one piece of ramp per game, but I don’t want to ever be playing ramp in lieu of making a land drop, that feels real bad. Generally I tend to try and lower the curve of my deck so I don’t need so much ramp, then I can replace those ramp slots with interaction/card draw/enabler/pay off pieces that I’m a lot more excited to play than a ramp piece. Whether or not going as low on ramp as I do is correct is definitely debatable, but I think overall people play too much ramp and not enough interaction/card draw.
@@jacobjensen7704 i run 3-4 in all my decks, i feel like thats my personal sweetspot because any more and you risk having a game where you cast 2 boardwipes and your opponents cast 2/3, which drags the game for hours, and if you only have 1-2 wipes in the deck you might never see them
I think Kodama's Reach and Cultivate are underrated. Yes they are slower. The advantage is that it pulls a land from your deck to your hand to help prevent missing a land drop. I think of them as cards nine or ten to a ramp package.
player preference - I'd rather have wood elves or topiary stomper to go get a land and be a body because lategame when i play an overrun, cultivate did nothing but my land finders are bodies
@@adamcappella8088 that's fair, with aesi wouldn't you want like three visits, nature's lore, farseek, and then tons of ramp like exploration, explore, growth spiral, oracle of mul daya, dryad, courser of kruphix etc instead?
@@sunflowertheog yes, those all would be good. But also cultivate and reach do allow for more draw pips. Plus with aesi you'd rock more ramp than normal and would have less focus on draw. So you'd probably have room to get those in the deck anyway. That's how I'd see it anyway.
I would be interested to see a video on the overlap of draw, removal, and ramp in your decks. Like, if you run 15 draw, 15 removal, and 15 ramp, what is the actual total count? I often prioritize cards that meet multiple conditions (sad robot) simply to make space for other cards. That approach is especially true when moving from deck building to (commander) cube building.
I’m a noob but i do have a breakdown if you or anyone cares 8-10 targeted removal, 4-5 board wipes, 35-40 lands, 5-15 ramp, 5-10 draw, and 20-43 cards themed around my commanders ideas I know it’s not the best, but for what I have it’s fun and effective enough
@@jerryloiselle8507 Fair point. Sad robot was probably not the best example. Replace with pro face-breaker or some such. I am interested to see what the Nerds think about the relative value of some potentially over costed cards that hit two or more of the removal, card draw, and ramp categories. Perhaps a tiered list of multipurpose staples with the world famous shrinky dink move? Just a thought.
Would you consider uploading some of these packages of each type onto moxfield using their package feature? Just think it would be helpful, though the full video with all the context is definitely better
Ahh backup I got worried for a sec cause I didnt get to finish the vid first time around. When I came back it was gone. Started and saw the intro and I knew exactly why you took it down lol. Good to see you both 🤘
So does this not seem like a high number? 12-15, and have like 12-15 draw spells, so if your land is 1/3 of your deck and the 2nd 1/3 is draw and ramp then that only leaves 1/3 for your targeted and mass removal, wincons, and whatever your actual game plan is
If you're going to talk about synergistic 3 mana rocks I really like the Celestus for decks that care about having cards in the graveyard. It basically loots for free a couple of times over the course of the game which I think is worth one additional mana. Only downside is having the mental tax of the Day/Night cycle.
Celestus is crazy good with dredge cards. One time I had it out along with a Stinkweed Imp and it milled at least a quarter of my deck over a few turns.
Celestus is actually just bonkers, definitely worth the extra 1 mana. But totally not worth having to track day/night lol. There are also excellent initiative cards that I just refuse to play because the mechanic sucks to track.
@Derrick Paulson it's not too bad to keep track of, lategame most people are double casting spells and if the last person didn't, the person before that likely did
I think one distinction some people make that you didn't mention is that something like rampant growth is always ramp and ramps up everything in your deck. Then there's something like goblin electromancer that only ramps some of your cards. I usually count stuff like that has a half of a ramp spell some people don't count those as ramp at all
Traverse the Outlands and Harvest Season? Have had some goofy success with those in the right decks. Cracking 6 lands with Harvest Season in a tokens deck on turn 4/5 feels good.
A Question: I just started using Moxfield and I am still learning my way around. When peoples refer to average mana value, do they typically mean with or without lands?
Don't write the 3 mana rocks off completely; If your deck is built such that you're casting your commander on turn 2 like 80%+ of the time, the 3 mana rocks are very appealing. Especially Relic of Legends and Honor-Worn Shaku.
So I have a Ghalta deck that I tried making as strong as I could because of the play group I was in. I decided to count up the stuff and I found it has the most ramp out of all my decks at 29(minus maybe my Raggadragga mana dork tribal, I haven't counted it yet) and the card draw/tutors are at 27, removal is at 12, and my lands including MDFC are at 26. Some of the cards pop up in multiple slots and some are repeatable effects. I'll probably be tweaking these numbers a bit as new cards come out for mono green. Edit: forgot to count Boseiju as removal making the total 12. Also decided to calculate avg CMC: 3.9 when having my X spells as my preferred mode so I can flex the avg down when needed
Hey Cherries! The scene depicted on your shirt? I've actually BEEN there! So I've BEEN there and DONE that, but you got the t-shirt? Where's the justice.
Hi Nerds, there was some good discussion and explanation about your thought processes behind your choices but I feel like there was one topic I would have loved you to cover. (this question applys to beezy with his god eternal oketra deck) How do create a white ramp package and how do you construct your ramp package when you're playing white catch up ramp or if you go down the solemn simulacrum, kor cartography etb package. The etb package feels more reliable for assuring your lands but these cards shut off your other white catch up ramp cards which makes them worse. While white catch up ramp is consistent if you're at the right table can that be enough of a justification to run that package over etb ramp. As much as green is the most prominent colour in commander I don't know how reliable that is. Cards like path to exile help a little making sure at least one of your opponents has an extra land to help you keep ramping. Can you walk the line and find a balance between the two or is it best to stick to one type of ramp package and exclude the other. Interested to hear your opinions as well as anyone else.
I am playing a very similar version of beezy's oketra deck, and to be honest, white catch up ramp never feel bad playing or having in hand. If nobodys playing green, your first catch up ramp like knight of the white orchid is gonna trigger on turn 3 (just dont play your land for turn before). I think that you should have a balance of white catch up ramp and just pure ramp too that could fits your strategy it able (mana rocks, solemn etc) And I feel that white options always come with some stuff even if youre not behind, archaomancer map gets you 2 lands out of your deck to play for future turns, your knight of white orchid is a creature for your creature decks so basically card draw with a lot of other cards (mentor of the meek, welcoming vampire, etc) so to be honest, dont be shy to play them without synergies to sacrifice your own lands or stuff like that.
What is the best creature i can put in a bant creature deck that kills a creature on etb. Or how do creature decks deal with killing creatures. Also can I put one or 2 most efficient spot removal in a creature deck for things that must die on spot.
@joea2083 Agent of Treachery, Arial Obstructionist, Venser, Reflector Mage, Lyev Skyknight, and Terrastodon, are in my Roon blink deck. Bant doesnt really have kill creature on etb
@@joea2083I don't have swords in my Roon deck and I almost got hosed by the new Elesh Norn recently so it might be good to have an instant speed answer
If you feel up to try something as a template to farther adjust. 37 lands-10 ramp/rocks-12 card draw-1game saving card optional. then 10 support cards that can be pritty much anything. now what i want you to do is out of your 10 ramp/rocks run bitterthorn. you 1 game saving card run sword of animist. out of your draw cards you want 2 strong draw spells but for testing run hedron archive and dreamstone hedron. then in your support cards run mind stone and commander sphere. and any more mana creatures you want. what you will notice is that you will have an absurd amount of ramp and draw options. what is left over is 20 plus main deck cards and 10 or so removal options. you have maybe a little under 20 cards that can thin out your deck or draw. then run the sac lands and you will have another 5 plus lands that thin out the deck. about 1/4 of the deck will be able to thin out the rest of the deck.
Why do you always choose to ignore faeburrow elder? 1GW for a vigilant 5/5 that taps for 5 blows most of this list out of the water, the only thing you could make a case for being better than it is bloom tender, and then if you care about the creature for anything other than mana elders better
I think in non-green decks, if you have 5+ Legendary Creatures, *Relic of Legends* is an absolute must-have. While it is a 3-mana rock, it also likely taps for 2-mana right out of the gate.
I don't think you need either of them in a mono green deck with a high enough creature count. You have some many 1 drop elves and BOP, 2 drops like tribe-elder and higher mana stuff like solemn or wood elves and springbloom druid. Plenty of creatures to fill your ramp slots just fine. If you need to choose one I think cultivate is always an easy card to cut. Three mana just doesn't do it anymore for me.
So I have all of the green cards you mentioned (Kodama’s Reach, Cultivate, Nature’s Lore, Skyshroud Claim, and Three Visits) in my Aesi (I know, yawn) deck, along with Wood Elves… predominantly landfall-themed. Are having all of those considered too many/overkill, or is it an appropriate amount for the commander/theme? Thanks - great content as always!
Shoutout to grand arbiter augistine IV because it reduces any azorious spell by 2 mana, also you kind of put yourself ahead in mana by just making everyone else pay more for their spells if you think about it long enough
I saw this vid earlier but when i went to go look for it when i actually had time to watch it was gone 😭 im glad its back you never know what you have untill its gone 😔 6:44
I use strixhaven stadium to have a token wincon on a ramp card, crowded crypt is often removed before i get to use it's effect but is amazing. Ashnods or phyrexian altar are great with zombie aristocrats and phyrexian goes infinite with gravecrawler. Bontu's monument is technically ramp with a great effect stapled to it as long as you are mostly black dimir and not heavy on blue (i think i run 2 or 3 pure blue creatures in zombies). There are a lot more card draw synergies but zombies do have some mana stuff to play with.
@@egoish6762 hi, thanks for the ideas. I have bontus monument, and was just contemplating if it's good enough, since it ramps only when you have creatures to cast..have to test it and see
I personaly go for the 2 mana ramp spells (rampant growth, farseek etc) and the 3 mana creatures (woodelves, elish rejuvinator etc) when in green. Edit: I also have two 3mana rocks i go to almost always when outside green, being worn powerstone and coalition relic as both can give you 2 mana the following turn.
It really depends on what the avg. cmc of the deck is. If you're under 3.0, then 32 lands, sol ring, arcane signet, and your 6 Talismans/Signets should serve you well. If you're at about 3.2 then 33 lands and 3.3 would be 34 lands with all the ramp I listed. If you're above 3.3, try lowering your curve.
@@dirtyfrench2926 32 lands is too low, are you serious? If you don't draw enough lands you will not have mana for ramp, or will lose half of the game playing artifacts instead of spells
@@yavivanov6650 I'm dead serious, 32 lands is the MOST I run in any of my decks and I rarely have any issues. Way to offer a solution of your own there hoss instead of just telling me how "wrong" I am!
I prefer to run less ramp and reduce my cmc, i rarely run cards over 5 mana and normally only a couple of them. I'll normally have 8-10 rocks or rituals though, however my artifact decks has so much treasure creation its 90% ramp 😅 they've really pushed treasures.
Currently having trouble finding a balance for the ramp cards in my Mono-green Thrun breaker of silence deck because ramp doesn't seem to help very much once I get my commander down but getting him down early is always very very helpful... Also I'm having trouble with the ramp in Graaz the juggernaut but it's really more of a colorless issue and the conundrum of should I use some fast mana since I'm in colorless trying to run a super slow 8 mana commander or run more dorks that will end up being 5/3s later.
In a creature heavy deck, after you’ve slotted in the one drops and natures lore and three visits, would you go to something like far haven elves OVER rampant growth? I’m tempted to pull my two cost spell ramp for three cost creature ramps like yavimaya dryad/ farhaven, springbloom.
It's color fixing since it doesn't thrown them onto the battlefield. I really like it in three color decks cause it helps get your colors and it has upside in the late game. However, I have had it sit in my hand in the late game. Be prepared for it to sit in your hand especially if you're not playing mill. Delirium is much harder to achieve in EDH.
@thedark1owns thanks man, I like that I can get any land I like, Beezy Field of the Dead, comes to mind. Also like the creature fetch, but you say you have had it sit in your hand late game, you never used it for creature fetching?
I was hoping you guys would help with Boros decks, outside of “use mana rocks”. I’m building my first Boros deck and can’t think of any ramp outside rocks and knights of the white orchid, which doesn’t synergise too well for an equipment deck
Sword of Hearth and Home, Sword of the Animist, and Bitterthorn Nissa's Animus, are all true ramp (meaning you don't need to have less lands than an opponent) attached to equipment cards. Two of them trigger on attack, and one triggers on combat damage to a player (use double strike to trigger it twice). None of these will really help you in the first three or four turns due to costs (that's what the mana rocks are for), but they will keep your land count increasing as the game goes into the later turns. Bonus to The Irencrag for being a mana rock that can become an equipment later in the game if you no longer need the mana.
So in my jetmir deck which doesn't need to ramp into big stuff because everything is small and it's making 1/1 tokens I should run all the relevant elves - birds of paradise - blood tender ?
Cards I didn’t hear mentioned that deserve it: Relic of Legends Seedguide Ash Shadow in the Warp Urza’s Incubator Cloud Key Carpet of Flowers Trace of Abundance Burgeoning Azusa And any cards that bring lands back from the graveyard like Windgrace
I play commander since 2016 and winned a ton of games. I never had ramp in my decks. No mana ramp, no land search no rituals, just normal land drops. I dont understand why every one plays ramp.
Cultivate and Kodama's Reach should be junked already. Even on budget, this game now have so, sooo many greater options, often direct upgrades to what these two do. Even some green Pauper EDH decks do not run these anymore.
There's an overgrowth type of aura in shadows over innistrad set that makes two mana of any color and gives you a clue token. For the same mana cost. I found it in my binder yesterday and I was like.. Why do I not use this..?
Lies! You do have a sol ring in your Liara deck, I found it in your moxfield deck list. BTW, I was surprised that your moxfield affiliate link isn't at the top! 😁
My dragon tribal plays 35 ramp. 10 ritual, 15 lite ramp, 10 heavy ramp. Can never have enough mana! Tempt with Discovery is always an mvp - as soon as one person caves to temptation, it becomes a 4 mana search for any 4 lands untapped.
@@doktarr what, it's a 4 mana ramp a land lol. It's very bad, if people play correctly and don't use it, which is very obvious decision. So bad card, and/or bad players
@@doktarr The trick is to politic it. "I won't kill your commander if you take the land". I guarantee once one person folds, the rest of the table won't want to be behind. :)
In comparison to Sword of the Animist, I think Atalan Jackal should be getting more love. Sure it has to connect to get the land but it's a 3 mv hastey boi, so early in the game there's usually someone you can get through for the trigger. At $1.50, I think it's a really good pick up for your gruul+ lists.
Cant go wrong with three visits and natures lore. Both basically the same card and allows you to cast a 1 drop spell the same turn. 3visits into llanowar elf feels sooo good
Discord or friends who play and or trial and error is fun despite how it sounds. You learn a lot about what cards you like and don’t like just from that
