What the Heck Happened in 2023? 

Yes indeed

The church has missed it because of the lies of Satan.

I think I agree! It said Flesh and Blood will not inherit the Kingdom Of Heaven/God. Also "My Kingdom Is Not Of This World." Demar is right. He's just under enormous pressure! How ironic is it that it's all the Pagan Cults and Nations that think and thought it was all about this earthly material reality.... How ironic is it that Cults and Pagans anthropomorphize everything. Nah it's all nonsense. When our life expires that's it, it's over. We all have to go through this life to get to the other life! And how awesome is that. Am I to think that somehow our Lord exists in a inferior existence? That his Throne is in a reality inferior to ours? How blasphemous is that! These ppl that think it's all about planet earth have ZERO faith and hope in the Lord! They are 1,000% attached to this vain existence! Shameful is all I can say!

Yes exactly right! But remember we get a glorified heavenly body upon death. And yes we see the Lord and that's every eye, and we are judged just like you said.

Are you Roman Catholic?

@@junkerjorg6310 I am not.

@PrayerTable there are many preterist statements made by many early NT church writers (I won't call them fathers). We're just clueless about them. Many were saying Isa 2 (swords into plowshares) was fulfilled. In Ode 15 of the Odes of Solomon (possibly written in the 70's) says they had already put on incorruption (1 Cor 15). Carnal Christians call these Odes gnostic because they're uncomfortable with seeing things in the Spirit. 1 Clement was written prior to AD 70 (mentions that sacrifices were still happening in the temple) and the letter admonished the Corinthians to keep holding on for the resurrection.

Bodily resurrection? Why is this difficult? You mean you don't count a glorified heavily body as a bodily resurrection? I do? Get your head out of this world! It's what all cults do, especially the Pagan Cults

A preterist could say the same thing… the reason Paul was on trial had nothing to go with futurism. And in fact, that would be correct in my opinion. He was on trial for preaching Christ resurrected from the dead. That was a past event tied to a yet future event that is also the resurrection from the dead. Christ is the first fruit of the resurrection from among the dead.. the harvest was soon to follow. The prosecutors rejected that Christ was resurrected from the dead, not that there would some day be a resurrection of the dead, in general terms. It is the fact that Paul tied that future “hope of Israel” to the already crucified and indeed resurrected Christ that he was on trial.

His podcast, earlier this last year, he has 5 episodes covering this.

@@raydawgrules thanks!

Unfortunately that’s too simplistic. This doctrine of ascending into heaven at death to be with the Lord, and then returning to the earth to inhabit resurrected bodies sometime yet unknown, and then returning to the presence of the Lord, AGAIN, just doesn’t exist anywhere between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21. This issue needs to be thoroughly re-examined exegetical.

@@spectrumatos, Thanks for your comment. I'm not suggesting that the saints in the General Resurrection go to Heaven, then come back down to Earth, and then go back to Heaven. When the saints go to Heaven at the General Resurrection, that is where they stay forever and ever. If the General Resurrection was in the 1st Century, that is when the saints in Sheol went to Heaven. If the General Resurrection is in our future, that is when the saints in Sheol will go to Heaven.

You said, “if somebody today positions the General Resurrection (which coincides with the last trumpet and all that happens at the last trumpet) in our future, a saint on Earth today would go to Sheol when their personal time here on Earth is done to then await the General Resurrection.” I’m not saying that this is “correct”, but it is, however, consistent with a futurist view of the general resurrection. What is not consistent is the doctrine that saints like Paul or Peter for example, and all who “die in the lord” afterwards, in fact go to heaven, into the presence of the lord, in the heavenly sanctuary, in a -bodiless-state awaiting a future time when they will return to earth and receive a resurrected body that proceeds right out of their graves. That is the doctrine of futurism regarding the resurrection, and the intermediate state of the dead in Christ until the resurrection (future). Now, you seem to present a consistent position that if the resurrection is future, then the intermediate state is in Sheol and not heaven. I am preterist, I believe the opening of heaven and the heavenly temple to old and New Testament saints is past . Which position do you take, past or future fulfillment?

@@spectrumatos , Past. Yes, if the General Resurrection is future, saints toady who physically die would necessary need to go to Sheol to await the General Resurrection. I'm an Individual Body View (IBV) Preterist. I do not subscribe to the Max King framework that William Bell, Don Preston, and others do in Covenant Eschatology Corporate Body View (CBV) Preterism.

@@spectrumatos, Past. I'm an Individual Body View (IBV) Preterist. I do not subscribe to Covenant Eschatology Corporate Body View (CBV) Preterism.

That's all highly debatable.

Yes Paul did. The Nicene council had to address heresies, they weren't worried about eschatology because the deity of Christ was under attack. They just repeated the apostles creed and what the bible said without thinking twice.

Please point us to this “great clarity” exegetical work you are referring to. There would have to be a “stretch” somewhere. Example, Gentry holds that we are always in the last days and it been 2000 years. So who’s picking and choosing is correct? Honestly, I do not think anyone has the answer, there might be some who are close but no one has it right. I believe whatever the “fulfillment of the gentiles” means would clarify it all, but I could be wrong.

A conclusive argument could also be a bad argument, due to one or more factors within the argument. I agree with Gary’s position in said argument. In fact most bible believing Christian’s believe that when they die they will go to heaven.. yet the Bible does not teach a bodiless existence in the presence of God beyond the veil. Resurrection is implicit in that belief, and essential if it is in fact true. Otherwise we’re headed to Sheol like the rest of the Old Testament saints waiting for hades to be emptied at the GWT Judgment sometime in the future.

@@samuelmfrost CE? Really? AD! But you sound like a full preterist again here...are you? I know you've changed your positions A LOT.

I haven’t seen the exegetical work that brings old and New Testament believers out of their heavenly abode to be joined to their resurrected bodies buried in the earth. Why don't you show us.

If you believe that when we expire here we go to heaven, then you are a preterist. It doesn’t get any simpler than that, folks. Even learned men like Nicodemus need milk sometimes. You can spin your wheels trying to figure out how to get back into your mothers womb, or contemplate the impossibility of a camel going through the eye of a needle, or you can just take it in faith that Jesus went to prepare a place, and that he either HAS returned to bring humanity to that place, or he has not. It can’t be both.

Are we going to get new Scripture in the future telling us that those verses have reached their 2nd (double) fulfillment? Double fulfillment is a never ending game and it comes down to the opinion of a man. Only inspired writers can definitively tell us what is fulfilled, what is type/antitype, etc. and there are no more inspired writers. The office of prophet has ceased. Some OT prophecies have foreshadowing fulfillment in their own day, but they're really about events in the 1st century. Paul said he only taught what was in the Law and Prophets, i.e. he was not sharing new prophecy. NT recapitulation of OT prophecies of 1st century events does not lend itself to future double fulfillment. There's not even a hint of that being a possibility from the text. We should let the Scriptures speak for themselves and stop creating all of these devices to argue away what the Scripture explicitly states.

Which NT author can you point to that explicitly taught an already/not yet principle of fulfillment in the new covenant age (age to come)? They all, with the exception of possibly Luke, wrote during the period of covenantal/age change.

We have modern day Pharisee types, you know the ones who have the keys but prevent others from entering. You know, people who put creedal orthodoxy above biblical orthodoxy, like the Pharisees put the law above YHWH…. the Gentry types… ;)

@spectrumatos 2 'already not yets' is a nice little device to be able to have one's cake and eat it, too. They always seem to leave out a double fulfillment of the great tribulation, the beast, great apostasy, etc. in our future because it destroys the Postmillennial framework. They create 'type, type, antitype' where it benefits them. They call any early preterism (like that found in the Odes of Solomon) as gnostic. If they didn't know 1 Cor 2 and John was Scripture, they'd call it gnostic, too.

​@@JR-rs5qs Sometimes we have to think outside the box. For instance Isaiah 9:6 is not referenced in the New Testament as being fulfilled in Christ. But I have never heard a Christian deny it; "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace" Western Civilization was built on understanding how to interpret Isaiah and the Old Testament by the teachings of the Apostles and Jesus Christ. Their specific interpretations of Old Testament verses and verses like "search the Scriptures they speak of Me", "And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself", etc. both invite our curiosity and give us license to understand where exactly in Scriptures do they speak of Him. The New Testament gives us many specific examples as to where but not an exhaustive list, so we study! God sends the church teachers to teach us as we study and we find verses like Isaiah 9:6. So is the teaching that Isaiah 9:6 as being ultimately fulfilled in Christ as Handel's Messiah's does "new Scripture"? Of course not. Could we be wrong in some interpretations, of course we can, but with the right teachers we can also be right! This Holy Spirit method of how to interpret the Old Testament is our tool to understand Scripture, rightly! This method can also be applied to the New Testament with the same wrong and right results, like the "rapture theology" being wrong and "AD 70 theology" being right. It's not new Scripture, its just Scripture rightly applied. Gary DeMar admits that some verses absolutely seem like they refer to the second coming, but they also seem more to him like AD 70 as well. I'm just saying, it may be possible that it is both in some instances. Again, like the vast majority of Isaiah's prophesies applied to both Isaiah's day with King Hezekiah and also the first coming of Christ, and if I may be so bold the second coming of Christ as well.

Although Mr. Doane does make some interesting points . Next time just let Gary finish . Still a great presentation. Thank you both.

Me too… lol. Especially when Gary was talking about Revelation 20.

Me too, several times, love you Doane but hear us.

Spot on. I agree 100%. It was very frustrating.

1000% agree…annoying. He’s a “me too” guy.

The Gates are open to the New Jerusalem- do your work to bring the nations into it's glory.

Dominion + Healing the nations (both via the proclamation of the Gospel and discipleship).

​@@DavidBradford-cw2flokay. But Jesus was a Torah keeping Jewish person living during a certain period of time before a judgement. Most of his words don't even apply to us and which laws still apply is a toss-up. Acts 15 still gives some food laws to Gentiles. Did that only apply to the time prior to AD70 as an example?

which think Gary has seen the wizard behind the curtain, the modern-day-Pharisees like Gentry et Al. Have the keys, they just shut the door.

*I think…

My advice for you would be, don’t hold your breath waiting for an answer. I mean, they will undoubtedly give lip service to that issue in passing, but don’t expect to see any exegetical work behind their assertions. Old Testament saints are in heaven, in the presence of YHWY, Sheol couldn’t hold them, but somehow they bypassed the resurrection of the dead.

@spectrumatos I've been breathing since asking the question :D ironically several weeks ago my pastor said that it wasn't until Christ that OT Saints got to go to Heaven, but he of course didn't realize what he was really saying. Futurists balk at us when we say Jesus physical resurrection was a sign even though that's exactly what Jesus said it was (the sign of Jonah)! Futurists are looking at it with such carnal eyes.

I love Jim Jordan's interpretation of this in his 204 lectures on Revelation. He teaches on Revelation 6:9-11 that the opening of the fifth seal is the revelation of all the old testament martyred saints in Paradise awaiting revenge. Christ had to be the first man to ascend to Heaven and now these dead martyred saints see it and want to be in Heaven on Thrones with Him. They are told to wait just “a little while”, being 40 years from AD 30-70, for the new testament martyred saints to join them and then they will all get revenge in AD 70 and ascend to their thrones in Heaven in Revelation 20:4 to rule. When Christ rose from the dead, He breathed the Spirit on the disciples and then spent 40 days on Earth, typified in Israel’s 40 year wanderings in the wilderness. When Christ rose to Heaven after 40 days He sent the Spirit. The saints and church follow that same model of 40 years from AD 30-70 40 when all these saints “under the altar” ascend from Paradise into Heaven.

@JR-rs5qs That particular discourse is one of my favorites. It’s bracketed with casting out demons in the land of Israel and demons returning to the land of Israel after he had swept SATANS HOUSE clean. But ya, in between those two bookends, we have the sign of Jonah. Three days in the heart of the earth (or the fish in Jonah’s case). Not only was that a “sign”, for that generation, but also he tells them that the men of Nineveh would arise and stand up (erchomi), at the judgment of that generation! The “queen of the south would also “awake” at the judgment of that generation. This is resurrection and judgement. All partial preterist agree that the judgment of His generation was carried out in the Roman Jewish war… as outlined in Matthew 24, Luke 21, mark 13, But Jesus unambiguously has the men of Nineveh and the queen of the south risen up and awakened and PRESENT at that judgment!

👆I meant “anestemi” (rise up) and “egeiro” (awake). I had a video playing in the background discussing enistemi in it bled through in my brain.. lol

@brucekyer5530 I think Gary is ready to be serious as soon as the other guys are ready to be serious and knock off all the "heresy" claims

Search “Collision” with Douglas Wilson and Christopher Hitchens. A fascinating documentary. Absolutely compelling. Darren directed it.