Great Counter I have an HP 5345A with a HP 5355A Automatic Frequency Converter and a HP 5356A Frequency Converter Head and high stability oven it has been working great for over 30 Years, I am Retired Engineer I sold most of the lab equipment, but I am going to keep this one as long as I can before I leave this World, I Injoy your videos as it brings back memory of my equipment repair days, Thank You
Thanks for another great video. I had been told it was strictly S meter related with the 9 being the noise floor and the difference between 9 and where ever the signal was. Your explanation makes a lot more sense.
Thank You, Thank You, Thank You. I'm like the kid in class afraid to raise his hand to ask the question for fear of being ridiculed. I feared contesting by voice because I had never understood the 5/9 issue. Now I do, thanks to you. I really appreciate this video, most of them take for granted that everyone is an expert, when in reality there are just a lot afraid to ask the question.
Wow, I was off. I always thought the 1st number, usually a 5, was the S meter strength of the background noise, ie no one speaking. The 2nd number, usually a 9, being the S meter reading, signal strength, when the party is speaking. Very informative video on HAM radio signal reports.
Ape, I totally agree with you in this respect. If there is a problem with your radio or antenna, you need to know about it, from others that are receiving your signal. Giving out stock standard 59 signal reports are BS and helps no-one at all. Secondary to this, the two numbers are meaningless without some sort of back-up information (especially with voice modes) as to why you're giving this particular rating to another ham. I will say (where applicable), things like there is a whistle in behind your audio or your signal fluctuates, or whatever as the case may be. A very good video.
Excellent subject! You are absolutely correct. 59 is overused. Another incorrect use is the reporting of "Q" Signals. The overuse and incorrect use of "QSL" over the recent years is now worldwide. Although QSL is a confirmation of receipt of your transmission, it was always followed by exchanging a written receipt on a QSL Card. QSL was not intended to be used in place of a verbal acknowledgment. I just stick with "Roger" or "Roger-Roger". However, I was taught old school ways by my elmer in the 1970s and 80s. Best regards.
Thanks for this video, was at the Houston Ham fest and made my First HF contacts at the get on the air station there. As I was making contacts and I asked about the whole 59 thing and what was the guide. The person running the station told me to just give everyone a 59. I'm new so I didnt question it there. Glad I found your video explaining it.
Good explanation. I had pretty much figured out that contesters were , uh, less than helpful with signal reports., but you covered the complete spectrum of how well meaning hams are giving RTS that are less than helpful for us personally.
I was happy to get a 46 the other day because I was on Mt Umunhum VHF with a 5W HT and the other station was a mobile 60 miles away in Downtown Oakland. Also the N6NFI repeater in Palo Alto will give you your S-reading into the repeater if you key up and enter 699 on the DTMF. It’s fun to stand in the front yard and test different antennas to see the difference at the repeater.
@@TheSmokinApe it was a fun day, I had contacts in all directions. Monterrey, Salinas, Oakland, and San Jose. Sunny sky and no fog so you could see all the way out to the coast and up to San Francisco. Lots of fun summits around here where a SOTA activation can be done no problem with an HT.
What a great topic, and well put also. It can be confusing for new hams. I'm still somewhat new to HF and still learn stuff all the time. When I got back into the hobby and started doing HF I was scratching my head over my S-meter to try and give an honest signal report, but over time and with making more contacts learned similar stuff you outlined here in your video. 73 de N2NLQ
I get what you're saying. I work a lot of QRP and and higher powers. About 50/50. I am constantly getting 599s from DX and contest stations when I'm running 2.5 or 5 watts. They just have that programmed in their button box because they don't want to take the time to consider the signal report and just move on to the next station as fast as possible. As long as they get your call letters you're a 599. But I give them the cherry or the dirt accordingly. The way I do it is I go by the meter and you may say well all meters are different but that really doesn't matter since all signals are different on my end. But most meters will fairly accurately distinguish the difference between other signals on the band. I used a Ten Tec Century 21 which has no s meter for 16 years and nothing else. I Was always wrestling with what strength to give them. I don't think many ears can really tell the difference between a S4 and an S6 without some kind of indicator. I try to be objective when giving the readability. That and the signal strength go hand and hand. But from a 1 to 7 meter reading on strength, I give them a 1 to 7. From 7 to 9 I give them an 8. That is a little broad but I think it's fair. Any thing over S9, I give a 59 or 599 Because that is your extremely strong signal area. K4JTP
Whenever listening to contesters on HF my Signal Report BS meter doesn't budge from 9+60dB. I used to think it was broken but since have found that it functions perfectly when working VHF or UHF aircraft scatter.
Suggestion. A disclaimer not to drink fluids while watching your videos. Almost spit twice. 😂 The bs stands for…. I’m sure there’s a bunch of experts watching…. Love your content sir! Thanks for all the effort you put into your videos!
I'm a QRPer so I'm just happy if they get my call sign right lol. In a contest (which I don't generally participate in myself) I think 5/9 and move on is perfectly acceptable as it's about collecting as many contacts as possible. Everyone can tell when they're weak or not heard well by the other station if they're asked to repeat over and over. My rig's S-meter seems to undershoot what I'm hearing so I often go by ear and compare it to other stations I hear. Most operators give honest reports so I do my best as well to be honest. DXers seem to be the most consistent with actual reports in my experience. I think it's ok to give a signal report on FM simplex I usually just give the S-meter reading and describe the readability as best I can instead of giving a number. On repeaters a description is all that's needed because the repeater is what your rig's S-meter is registering.
One of the biggest deficiencies I hear is low deviation (modulation). Strong carrier with minimal information. If I mention that, you'd be surprised how many operators have no idea what I'm talking about.
Ape 🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅🏅. Great video. Again you have taught me something I didn't know. Your videos are really helping me to be a better have and also trouble shoot things. You are a God Send my friend. Plz keep these types of videos coming. Thank you. 73 de KG7LOI.
New here, but another thing that I haven't quite figured out is why do some operators use non-standard phonetic-alphabets? "Kilowatt" instead of "kilo"?
I don't contest as it ruins the art of conversation. I do however give R/S reports for people I talk to and try to be accurate including sometimes using the +20 etc. As I regularly talk to the same people often it gives a way of tracking conditions etc for past and future reference.
There are situations where they are 59 but I have to ask for their call multiple times.....accents .... using goofy phonetics rather than standard.... used to trying to sneak into a pileup and talking too fast...qrm
Give them a sinpo code! I’d find that really useful. But seriously for fm and such use plain language like at en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plain_language_radio_checks
If you really want to frig them up, give them a 9 over 7. LOL. I usually give them a real report, suspect it bugs people, yet my give a $hit meter is broken.
A few opinions on 59's during contests and why everybody is 59. Typically the purpose is to make as many contacts as possible. To give an accurate signal report requires you to listen, listen again, look at your meter and possibly listen a bit more. That takes time. Time away from possibly making another contact. Second opinion is if someone gives you a 33 or 51 or 48, it really messes with your rhythm in a contest if you are working a pile up. If you have a stack of contacts who are waiting to get you in the log, the ADHD kicks in and if your not working stations quickly, operators who are searching and pouncing are moving on, hence get them in the log and move on. Typically the signal reports is the least important thing in the contest exchange. Third opinion in contests with lengthy exchanges, operators say 59 before the exchange. This give the operator a queue that the exchange is coming and to get ready to copy. Most contest loggers will automatically insert 59 or 599 into the proper fields after entering the call sign. This give you a breather to catch up or correct a call sign before the exchange it given to copy. Great presentation. Always debates about signal reports, if they are accurate and if they are really needed. Lots of drama behind this subject.
Thanks for the comment Kyle, I always appreciate your perspective given your experience and commitment to HR. I understand why "it is what it is" for contesting. Maybe they should trade some other piece of info that most folks aren't forthright about like; age, height or weight!
And plus this comment was not to skool anybody, especially you. It was to maybe give some perspective on my thoughts on what I've learned about the 59 signal report throughout the years.
Why the hell would anyone be happy with only 5/9 if you are honestly asking for a radio check or signal report? Dumb. I give folks the truth. Don't like it? Don't ask for a signal report.
I'd appreciate the honesty! I was wondering why I always hear 59, that's like everyone being a winner. I like the sound of a report more along S/N. I am a new technician and appreciate this video!
Contests.....everyone is a 59! I think the ionosphere knows there is a contest going on as well as everyone's antenna suddenly becomes resonant. Love it. Edit-so many factors....each receiving station has a different antenna, different location...signal reports should vary!
Great video. I usually give honest reports. I have however, given a 59 and needed them to repeat their call. Usually because either 1. Another guy with a strong signal walks over the first 2. There is a quick static crash right during a single letter of their call, or 3. I am daydreaming when the person gives their call and I need them to repeat, even when they are perfectly readable. So just because someone needs to repeat the call, doesn’t mean its not a 59.
Question: I’m certainly not a seasoned ham. General Class - June 2020.. Most times when a signal is strong and, readable I may say again - again, but it’s not from poor (signal) modulation, etc, it’s because Of accent. Myself personally, have big problems making out certain words because of the Person’s accent. I feel horrible giving a lower report on readability for the simple reason that I’m finding it difficult to understand what may be considered broken English. I can’t speak any language other than English but if I could, I’m sure it would be with a western Pa (Pittsburgh-ish) accent. Thoughts???
Thanks for saying what needed to be said. I got my licence when S meters were an optional extra or didn't exist for a lot of receivers, so reports were given by ear and were more honest than they are now. The most amazing report I heard given out by a local recently to a DX station was "You are 5 and 0". Yes, five and zero. He couldn't manage to give a report unless his S meter was showing a value. S meters are best used to give relative reports - "You are 10db stronger on that aerial compared to the other" for example. They are not to be taken as definitive. Cheers from a snowy England - G3WNR
sorry to be so off topic but does anyone know of a method to log back into an instagram account? I was dumb forgot my password. I appreciate any tips you can offer me!
@Canaan Brixton I really appreciate your reply. I got to the site on google and im waiting for the hacking stuff now. Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
Umm, no, signal strength is not subjective. An S9 is defined as 50uv at 50 ohms, or -73dBmW. Each S-unit lower is a drop of half voltage or -6dB power. Meters may not be calibrated the same (but should) and some do think S units are subjective, but there IS a definition. Since S-units are defined to a specific voltage/power, it DOES make sense to have a reading greater than S9 in terms of dB. Why might you get a strength report in a range, e.g., S4 to S7? Fading. There can be some pretty rapid fading on HF. Signal strength is not always constant. Why would you get a readability report of R3 or R4 with a strength of S9? Interference or burst atmospherics (static crashes). Just because you have a strong receive signal does not mean perfect reception. This is of course if the person giving the report is being honest. Throwing around "59" is lazy and useless indeed. However, there is a lack of understanding about what RS(T) is today as evidenced by your video. You could give an S-unit report for FM given the definition above, but usually your just reporting the strength of the repeater. It's better just to report they are reduced by the repeater with "full quieting", i.e., full capture. S-unit could be used for digital, but not in the way amateurs implement digital modes as modulated audio on SSB. That digital signal does present voltage/power at the receiver just like any other signal would. It's just that you don't have access to the voltage/power of only that digital signal as there may be many present in the pass band.
I don’t feel slighted in the least if someone gives me an honest low number signal report. I’m happy they took the time to reply. I keep an RST cheat sheet close to my radio so that I can give a more accurate report. Great video as usual. Thanks man, Kn4eqg
Roger rubber ducky. Loud an clear.heres another 59 for ya video explanation. I heard the ducky saying from a work site of first time users, that thought the 888 was kowl..yes indeedeham radio.out.
"Your RST is 336" "What do you mean 336!" "You have a fair signal, fair power, but I don't like your tone!!!!!" LOL. Thank you! A steady 59 may be easy for logging and contesting but I prefer an honest report. Yes people do get upset if they don't get a steady 59. Thanks for the video and keep at it. 73 de ke5es
I'm a long time Ham and I really liked your video. People get way too uptight about giving an RST report. Actually Ham sometimes can way too uptight about everything. It mostly just fun and it should be treated as such.
I've often wondered how to use an S meter for giving signal reports since on my radio (Xeigu x6100) the s meter changes significantly with the RF gain, and I change the gain a lot to deal with noise. So I have just been giving people subjective reports based on how strong it appears relative to the noise floor. Interesting to learn that this may have been the "correct" way to do it all along.
I was out on a mountain road turn out with a tape measure yagi overlooking SoCal. I told a contact who was 50 miles away he was 46 and he was super pissed. It was pretty funny actually because I want an honest signal report to.
My favourite 5&9 is: "You're 5 & 9, what are the last three of your callsign? I think you said your name was Jack and that you are in Wisconsin, or it might be Washington, or possibly Wyoming." You think I'm joking, I heard something very similar last night, but it involved a GW station and an IT9, on 20 metres. 5 & anything means I can copy every word.
I get it for contests because it is about speed and efficiency. If I get a 59 after I ask I will sometimes quiz the person about how I sound. FM signal reports are fine even through repeaters especially when using HTs.
I recently got an unsolicited "great signal, armchair copy " signal report from a 3rd party listening to a qso I was having where I mentioned my new home brew antenna. One of my favorite RST of all time. Lol
Thank you. This was very helpful as I'm just trying to figure out getting started on HF. I agree, I'd rather have honesty so I know what I need to do with my setup. K7AIO
SWL here... LOL! Heard this yesterday... Ham took several tries to get the DX signal call sign, and when he finally does, he says back, "Yeah we got you 5 by 9!" I call BS!
I hate it when i get 59's and I'm at home and on any band except 20m....I'm talking through a G5RV that's wrapped around the inside of my attic with the ends overlapping, in the middle of a neighborhood. I KNOW you're not hearing me at a 59. By that same token, if I give you a 59, BELIEVE IT! I have such a high noise floor at home, that if I can hear you enough to work you, you're no worse than a 57, but usually a 59. After my first ever portable operating this last Memorial day weekend out away from all the noise.....It gave em an all new appreciation for the signal reports. I now get that you can be a 53, where I can hear you perfectly, but you are VERY quiet.
This seems like a simple topic, but you hit all the things about it that I've never really understood. I mean, I understand the system, but not how people are actually using it. Because, well, they kind of aren't using it. Thanks for the vindication!
During contests especially, a signal report's meaningless--ur either being heard or not; it's like hearing on the air, "You're 5 by 9, but please repeat my report!" There's just NO WAY one single station's gonna cpy EVERYONE "59." Glad I'm all CW, dit dit
On digital (DMR) I DO NOT give numbers -- my usual is good audio good signal -- anything less than that i will try to describe what i am hearing that is out of the ordinary -- with digital your either in or your out in my opinion -- HOWEVER i will get a bit testy when someone is eating the mic and spitting in my ear -- NOT COOL FOLKS !!! -- most of the radios now days have very good mic elements and they transpose the sound quite well -- no sense in having the mic any closer than 4 inches away from your mouth !!!!!!!!!!----- maybe some of those that use the HF bands need to do that so they are heard but there is also an AF gain control ---- ask for a audio check and folks be honest and tell them to back off the mic -- i have heard numerous reports given where the person sounds like crap but they say ooooo your audio is good -- ya i can hear them but please without the extra WIND NOISE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- FLAME OFF N7JJY
Ham newbie here....I felt this as well. You are hearing lots of static and noise, barely audible and the guys gives 59. Seriously. Either he doesn't know RST or isn't honest enough to report correct values.
New to the channel and yes I know it was years ago but.....thanks for doing this. I too have heard people get upset over the numbers given. It is almost like a " status symbol " to be given a 5/9. Your signal may be the best but the signal I am receiving may not be due to many variables. Great video and explanation.
If I don't use the S Meter for the signal strength, how do I differentiate between a lower readability vs a lower strength? If I can barely tell what someone is saying, how do I know if that's a low readability or just a low signal strength?
I once gave a station I know a 5.8. report and he said nobody had ever given him that before, He seemed very put out, even offended. I gave a true report: I heard stronger signals on the band that day. It depends, as you say, it's subjective, his signal strength to my noise, my aerial efficiency meaning signals could always be lower: my h/b mag. loop is not as good as my inverted vee but it can cut down some noise if I position it right, local QRM affects readability, my receiver sensitivity and selectivity not great if I use my 76 year old 19 Set. I guess nobody had ever given him a real report. I've never heard 599 given on ssb. 5.9. reports then asking to repeat the call sign are heard regularly in contests. I look at the S meter on my FT817 but if I don't agree with it I don't give that report but give what I think he sounds like to me for the above reasons. An S meter is not a laboratory grade instrument, it's just an indication of one signal strength compared to another. My h/b tx/rx has never had an S meter fitted in 22 years as I didn't see the need for one. I also never got round to putting sidetone in. G4GHB.
I Hate it, when I’m on SSB and someone asks for a radio check. Then someone comes back to him and says “your 59 to 9” but you can tell there using a export radio and it’s off frequency. Sometimes whey off frequency from the one he’s trying to talk on. Just have to laugh at that point.
I think that the S meter is better than the RST method which is extremely subjective, where the S meter is a real signal level for every specific station of course. I think rst is more for cw I don't mind low reports, I depend on other ppl reports to know how bad or good I'm getting to the air so accurate report is essential for me, sometimes I ask about S level signals if they give me rst subjective values I'm an electronic technician , have proper calibration equipment (service monitor) so my s meters are properly calibrated, but of course that's just half the story, when we take into consideration antenna and cable losses
Thanks for the post, even with a calibrated S meter your RF Gain settings can impact the reading. Additionally, I’ve seen where the calibration is for S9 but other S levels may not be consistent. The RST report was created for CW and later adopted for SSB or phone modes. Anyway you slice it, a signal report is pretty useless…
My club does a weekly simplex test net on various bands and accurate signal reports are an important part for us. After all we are doing these to better understand how our radios work and what to expect from them.
It's a fact that 5/9 doesn`t mean much at all. so long as you can hear anyone loud and clear thats all you have to worry about, to much is said about this code.
my biggest pet hate is contests where everyones a 59 even though they have been asked several times to repeat callsign .one reason i wont join in on them the rules change according to the contest i know but most require callsign ,maybe a locator ,and you got it a signal report .Why? if your log dosnt match theres then it dont count I dont know why they not drop the signal report in the 1st place as its a usless bit of information if everyone is 59
I attended my first net last night. Near the end, I asked one guy specifically what equipment he was running because his “RST was by far the best at my location”. The language used by the rest of the group changed after that as though they were offended they weren’t “the best”. I sure hope I didn’t make any enemies as a brand new ham! 😅
Great video! Glad to see this. Personally, I like to give a true signal report as well as receiving one. It tells me what my radio is doing. I guess I’m old time lol. Even when I’m activating POTA, I give the actual signal report. It all depends on lots of variables. And your very right, meters vary.
With a small yard, I use an end-fed, and the RS also depends on the receiving antenna. So, the same signal on your Yagi might be a 59, but a 55 on my shitty wire - whatever your method. Your shitty signal report might not depend on your signal, but my antenna, and also propagation outside the control of either. I'd rather get the real report (in contests, it was inevitable 59 would become the default). It's childish to be upset about a 'bad' report. It's a report. Not an assessment of your character. Great vid.
I give this video a 5 9 +10 Thanks for this. As a new ham, I thought I had an idea of what this was about, but not completely sure. I will say that I've had people that seemed annoyed with less than a 5 9, I don't get it. It's not a threat to your manhood. It's propagation.
I do, from time to time, give a "10 over" or "20 over" but I indicate that they are 5-9 with a '10-over on the S meter'.. even though it is somewhat irrelevant, as the Smokin Ape says.. if you think about it, it IS relevant in a way. Gives the recipient something to ponder.. like, am I that loud there because we're a perfect distance apart? Because of atmospheric conditions? Lots ot things to think about. Yes, I know, MY S-meter and yours only have the name S-meter in common. So, relevant signal strength is just that.. 'relative to my radio, my antenna, my feedline, etc' I do completely agree that basing a signal report solely on the S-meter is wrong. But I don't see where giving that little bit of extra information is any kind of issue.
Maybe it's a CW thing, but I always give an honest signal report and I'm pretty sure most CW ops do. It's also probably easier because they are tones. I had 3 qso's earlier tonight, conditions were a bit rough. From MD, I was 529 in CA, 569 in TX, and 599 in the next town over from me. I gave them 539, 579, and 599. That would be insane if someone came back 53? 53?! lol wtf! But in CW the last number will always be 9, and if it isn't you need to explain why it isn't a 9 so the op can specifically know what's going on. I think I have only done that maybe 2 times ever, and they come usually back "old rig hi hi."
I've had some like that, 339 each way and we're both QRP and even 229 but that's where cw works and the QSO made. My one valve tx can be chirpy if I don't adjust it right and one guy runs a Paraset which is always chirpy. G4GHB.
in the military, we had 5x5 as loud and clear. there was and is not a nine scale in that world. Weak but readable was acceptable. great video and content
I would say that anyone who gets upset over a report that is anything less than a 59 probably does not take into account atmospherics and what the ionosphere is doing between themselves and whoever they are talking to. Some of those people make me think that you are saying something derogatory about their rig or the antenna they spent 6 weeks tuning and retuning to get their so called “perfect swr” measurements. They definitely are not taking into account that not everyone has the same quality or capability of natural hearing. How you and your equipment sounds inside your own head may not be what the other operator hears.
@@TheSmokinApe If everyone is throwing out "59" reports just to be polite or to get one back themselves, then the report itself becomes nothing more than a meaningless ego boost. No one has a perfect rig or perfect hearing. There's nothing wrong with chasing a signal that is clear and strong, but much of the natural portion of that chase is out of our hands. It is that less than perfect report that should spur us to learn more and come up with the tweaks and gizmos and techniques to make that 59 a factual, useful report instead of a feel good story.
Anyone who passed his or her amateur radio test, should have been around an "Elmer" or another amateur and have this knowledge. I used to teach classes, and I covered this because I felt it was important. It's fine to have this little chart near your rig, and there's no need to memorize it, per se, but it's not much to remember anyway. I think in the days when CW was a requirement, more operators were apt to memorize this reporting system.
First of all thanks for the video. Here are my thoughts. I was on a very popular WAS type Net tonight I'm also a NCS. There were people in the AIM saying the second number is the reading off your meter. I have never thought that and never will. I tried to tell these old guys maybe that's how it was back in the day when you took your test but I took my test a few years ago and there was nothing said whatsoever about a meter. personally I think the reason why using a meter is bad is because they're not all the same yes we hear different but the meters really can be very different from one another. You tell these old guys that and they just don't get it and think they're right so I just let it go.
This is how “best practices” (which is really for non-hobby endeavors) can be taken to an extreme. This often makes the hobby unpleasant for new operators as well as those of us who are more seasoned. I usually describe a signal or audio check qualitatively, or in the digital world in terms of packet loss and modulation. A 5-9 colloquially just means you are being heard by the receiving station “loud and clear.”
Sometimes, I give a "59" even if I needed them to repeat their call sign. In those cases, the problem was with the discriminator between my ears and not their signal at all. And I have given a "52" to someone who was perfectly readable, but had a weak signal. Later, I might don my headphones and suddenly a "52" is a "59." It's magic! HAHA! Thanks for the video! 73! -Scott, KE4WMF
If you can’t read what someone is saying because they’re down in the noise or because the band is up and down And they’re dropping in an out, does that reflect in their signal? Or is that just the band?
