What the Hell was Megalania?! 

The problem is the definition of "venom" is vague. Varanids have toxic compounds in their saliva, but no advanced delivery system. But even venom is just highly changed saliva with an advanced delivery system. So at what point does it become venom. With paleontology a lot of people support the clade Toxicofera, but hich suggests venom evolved once, and all clades within Toxicofera either have venom, or secondarily lost venom. But it's not fully supported. Each phylogeny is just one hypothesis. And can be tested again with other methods. But based on what is out now, I would call it an early derived venom, and that it does count, even without advanced delivery methods.

Apparently its saliva just has some pretty good anticoagulant compounds. Now, this is obviously nothing compared to the potent hemotoxins found in the venoms of vipers, which cause cellular death and internal bleeding, but it is enough to keep the bleeding from the REALLY NASTY bite of the dragon going for longer than it normally should. So the prey animal dies from external blood loss rather than the direct effect of the saliva. So yeah...depends on how you define "venom".

@@RaptorChatter This is a fair point, and ultimately it sort of comes down to a semantics argument. IIRC though I think it was discovered that there seems to be some sort of anti-coagulant factor in the saliva of Varanids, don't quote me on that, I might be misremembering, but assuming that is true then "venom" as we understand it probably wouldn't have been necessary for an animal the size of Megalania to bring down much larger prey than itself. With the amount of tissue damage the bite would do combined with some sort of anti-coagulant in the saliva the prey would have likely died from blood loss and/or shock alone. All of that aside, it's a fascinating creature and I hope we are able to find more specimens to get a better idea of just how it looked and behaved in life.

Most varanids do, in fact, produce venom. And they do have glands in the lower jaws that produce a toxic anticoagulant, so I say it meets the definition of possessing venom glands.

Wasnt there a study that disproved the myth that venomos Komodo Dragons are a myth? I think the newest science points to them being indeed venomous.

Lol. I just tamed one,😆

I should tame one they are one of the dinos I've ignored in ark

You forgot to mention that they like to sit on the celing and jump at you from above if you get to close

You all forgot that you can use it to walk on celling and walls too!

@@hayabusaorlovina2761 You also forgot to mention the megarabies! The moment you get bitten without an antidote, it's over :)

It's interesting just how many of the now extinct Australian megafauna would have almost certainly have survived long enough to encounter humans - Diprotodon, Procoptodon and Thylacoleo definitely did and it's hard not to draw conclusions that we either caused or greatly contributed to their extinction...

@@hollenwanderer Diprotodon did, as did Genyornis and some of the smaller species of Procoptodon and Stenurus. Thylacoleo may or may not have run into humans.

@@bkjeong4302 I mean where do you think the myth of the drop bear came from

Thanks! My wife is very conscientious, because she isn't as familiar with the background as geologists, so we appreciate this!

​@@RaptorChatter That's all good! She did very well in spite of that.

Yep we found a few more records like that about 20 minutes before recording, so we just kinda stuck with what we had

I will forever be fascinated by the question of how such myths get passed down. Sometimes it's pretty clearly fossils. Sometimes it's pretty clearly just coincidental. But so often, it really makes me wonder whether an oral tradition talking about certain creatures got passed down for generations and mythologized. If there's an afterlife of any kind, i really hope i get to delve into the past and get those answers there, because i know i'll never find them in my lifetime and it really does occupy... too much of my time and energy thinking about.

There's also at least two regarding giant lizards with venom that had to be hunted carefully.

@@origami_dream there’s always a grain of truth in mythology. The Aboriginal Australians mythology of animals aren’t myths, those animals once existed. They have been in Australia when it was Sahul & Indonesia was Sunda. They have a culture that’s over 50,000 years old, been through 2 earth processions (every 25,000 years) with climate changes, sea level rise, fall, rise again in that part of the world. There’s plenty of animals (especially mega fauna) that have gone extinct at the end of the Younger Dryas 12,000 years ago that was called myths by foreigners until bones were found.

I'm mean difference is pretty obvious especially when dinosaurs were depicted scientifically accurate.

@Atropus Arbaalish some people think all dinosaurs had feathers, which isn't true. velociraptor & deinonychus definitely had feathers, but triceratops & t rex had scales

@@MB32904 well no you can't really say that definitively since it seems more and more likely that feathers are actually an ancestral feature for all dinosaurs so without hard evidence it's hard to say one way or another. I think Triceratops and T-Rex to a lesser extent are more likely to not be feathered or partially feathered than they are to be fully feathered but they definitely could have been we just simply don't know enough yet to say definitively one way or another like we can about dromeosaurs for example.

@@Dell-ol6hb there are skin impressions of dinosaurs that show feathers & some that show scales.

​@@Dell-ol6hbstop trying

Yep! But without more evidence I feel unsure about directly linking those two things. What is better supported is a general die of of Australian megafauna after humans showed up.

That is a very intresting take and sounds very reasonable aswell How would a aimbush predator supposed to hunt with no cover Besides how it would affect the offsprings I really like that idea

We are doing pretty well, thanks!

Here is the paper we looked at: zslpublications.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.2009.00559.x

@@RaptorChatter thanks!

@@RaptorChatter The data in that paper actually shows that monitors tend to be faster the larger they are, not slower.

So the main thing is that there are diminishing returns which as they get larger there are fewer advances in speed. And with as large of an animal as Megalania those returns meant it would have needed to feed on other animals. In turn the better average movement speed could mean more rapid acquisition of scavenged meals. The speed is only relevant as much as the animal can actually catch prey.

@@RaptorChatter I also think there are few advantages with being really big as a pure scavenger. While size does help with taking down prey. A lizard that large would not be that stealthy, so would at least need to be able of short bursts of speed to catch prey. Long distance running would seem like a bad strategy for such a large frame. Living monitors also tend towards being explosive sprinters.

Your quote is “even on a smaller scale this thing was twice as big as a Komodo dragon”. WRONG! Twice it’s length maybe, but length does not equal size!!!! Komodo dragons don’t way close to a 1,000 pounds and your talking about something weighing 1-4 thousand pounds in weight!

They also kinda killed them. We suck...

@@madsgrams2069 nah not really, this was towards the end of the last ice age. The mega fauna weren’t adapted to the warmer climates and changing landscapes. Sure humans had an impact on them. But we were just trying to survive. Either hunting them for food, or killing them for self preservation. And even without us the still wouldn’t have survived. Do mammals suck for surviving while dinosaur went extinct? Nature is brutal, not just humans

@@madsgrams2069 because we are superior 💪

@@mhdfrb9971 😂

@@mhdfrb9971 we light years superior intelligence and power wise to all animals. i suspect waring among homo lineages molded our intellect.

Considering the size so do I think venom is the least concern when getting bit by Megalania. Swallowed whole would also be more of a concern.

Why?!

Given the reputation of komodos, I would think twice if I ever wanted to bring them back let alone releasing them back into the outback

Do we really even want Megalania around in the modern day? Australia is already dangerous enough, but having a giant monitor lizard running around would be a whole other story.

So they might have been varanids, or closely related, but there's still a lot of debate. Recently more studies have found them as closer to snakes. Either way that does put them in the group Toxicofera, which means they could be venomous, though at that size and being so highly derived in the water I don't think it's super likely except maybe in a few early ones.

@@RaptorChatter Yeah, it's unlikely. But one can wonder. That's one of the things about paleoart I find both appealing and repulsing -- when you try to figure out what an extinct animal would actually be like, you can't actually get the varied and idiosyncratic details that make an animal an animal without speculating considerably.

@@cravensean I think that's a good and bad part about things like the Prehistoric Planet documentary. It has a lot of interpretation and speculation which could be correct, but there's no way to know. But it may be taken as absolutely certain. As opposed to an idea which helps to show that these animals all had specific behaviors like modern ones.

@@RaptorChatter I like that they show how mosasaurus have basically lizards/ snake behaviors.

Yeah, the big monitors are neat, but I certainly would recommend taking care around them.

The problem is the definition of "venom" is vague. Varanids have toxic compounds in their saliva, but no advanced delivery system. But even venom is just highly changed saliva with an advanced delivery system. So at what point does it become venom. With paleontology a lot of people support the clade Toxicofera, but hich suggests venom evolved once, and all clades within Toxicofera either have venom, or secondarily lost venom. But it's not fully supported. Each phylogeny is just one hypothesis. And can be tested again with other methods. So it may not be "venom" according to some researchers, but that is for more debate. As it is right now I think it's fine to call it venom.

@@RaptorChatter Totally agree, just sayin' that if any teeth were found to have delivery system traits you should have your proof. But you know that already.

They likely would've been excellent swimmers like Komodo dragons and other monitor lizards. It didn't evolve directly into Komodo dragons, it's actually younger than the Komodo dragon is

@@scatman9166 neat but also like I said before fat would be a huge liability as they already move slowly and fat would just make it worse so they were probably all muscle no fat and without any fat the couldn’t swim as they would sink no matter how much effort the put in

@@RG-zt4ox They would have similar amounts of fat to their modern relatives

@@scatman9166 it’s not a good evolutionary design for large creatures to have fat because it’s extra weight that does very little especially for cold blooded creatures

@@RG-zt4ox It's extra food stores for long periods without food, which would be very useful for megalania. Even with just muscle it'd still be able to swim

One of the coolest varanids. Easily a top 3 lizard when considering them all.

@@RaptorChatter Hope you get to meet one (behind glass) sometime then!

@@DrBunnyMedicinal I very much prefer Asian water monitors because I do not have to meet them behind glass and can pet them on their silly little heads.

​@@sampagano205 A compelling argument. ;) I mean, unless you do something silly, like startle them, or wave your fingers far too close to their mouth, Perenties aren't all that likely to bite or climb up you. But just on the off chance, I prefer to have a sturdy barrier between myself and them, or at the very least not be nearly the tallest thing in proximity. ;)

No, it's not likely. The groups probably differentiated a few million years ago, so while they are the closest relatives it's more like they're cousins or siblings, not a direct lineage.

@@RaptorChatter thanks for your reply, I think it is a common misconception about Megalania

Probably not directly, but they are indeed very closely related, in fact Komodo dragons seem to have originated in Australia itself before migrating out to the indonesian islands and then becoming extinct in their original homeland, leaving only the populations we have left today.

Komodo Dragon fossils or at least fossils of extremely similar varanids have been found in Australia. Komodo Dragons were likely contemporary with megalania. Some species of much Australia monitor lizards even have Komodo dna from ancient hybrization events so it's possible perhaps even likely that komodos and megalania even interbred

Some of the earliest ones do come from the Cretaceous, yes. I think there's one from Mongolia for example.

We actually don't know if their temperament would be like komodo dragons, the temperaments of different species of large monitor lizards are extremely variable. For all we know megalania could have been like Asian water monitors where they're almost disconcertingly friendly for such a dangerous large animal.

@@sampagano205 Now I'm imagining some Aboriginal riding a Megalania like a horse!

@Atropus Arbaalish Yeah, and More directly for megalania bracketing its temperament tells us we don't really know anything. Because Komodo dragons are the closest relative, but the next closest relative is the lace monitor, and lace monitors are very much on the friendlier side. Going more broadly into the clade of Austronesian large monitors you have a stunning variety of temperaments that are at many points between the two extremes of komodo's and water monitors.

@Atropus Arbaalish And of course within that also monitors are generally intelligent enough that They show a lot of individual variation based on their experiences throughout their lives.

Vermiform Bones and the Evolution of Gigantism in Megalania: How a Reptilian Fox Became a Lion: Erickson et al., 2003

I'll bet that Megalania meat fell off the bone when cooked right.

Finally one species nobody will moan about if gone extinct.

Yeah there's a lot better care guides now for monitors to get them trained with target feeding and what not.

@@RaptorChatter Niles are tough. Others like Savannahs are easier.

@@thomaszaccone3960 also valid. I'd recommend an ackie to any new monitor keeper. They're small enough that it won't be too terrible if anything goes wrong.

@@RaptorChatter I always wanted a green tree monitor but that is a daydream.

@Atropus Arbaalish Everyone with any experience with monitors knows they have highly individualistic behavior and different species are easier or harder to tame.

It’s megalavania

It really comes down to the definition of venom. Even snake venom is basically specialized saliva, and the monitors do have some toxic compounds in their saliva, separate from bacteria. So for this video saying that it is a venom is reasonable, but ay be defined differently in the future.

I am not familiar with indigenous Australian archaeology, so maybe. But also the indigenous Australians may not have used animal materials in jewelry and whatnot. So it really depends on the actual history of the indigenous Australians, which has largely been erased by colonization.

Unless the role humans played in it's extinction was indirect.

Like if they caused a massive decline in megalanias prey.

Except you talk slower

For a person sure, for larger animals maybe it needed it if it had it. But with as partial as the fossils are it's hard to tell.

Imagine a megalania fighting a saltwater crocodile in the water.

Mosasaurus were basically giant marine monitor lizards.

Maybe. Unfortunately we don't really have enough of it to say what kind of monitor its body plan would have been closer to. It may have been more like a Komodo or a water monitor. Which while similar would mean different things for how it may have behaved.

I have no idea if work has been done on it, but my assumption would depend on whether it's tail and build was more like a lace monitor or a komodo dragon. Because while komodo dragons can swim, they are also extremely unlikely to swim in reality and seem to actively avoid it even in cases where it might benefit them.

Meanwhile lace monitors are more like standard monitors who actively prefer to live near bodies of water that they can swim in.

Have you actually seen this in person? I saw komodos in the wild. One bite and 4 hours later dead buffalo.

It is very much still a matter of debate whether or not komodo dragon venom is a deeply important part of their hunting strategy or just a secondary thing within the herpetological community.

Considering how one prominent proposed way it is used to help in hunting is by allowing the komodo to pursue the same individual over long distances in spite of their lacking endurance skills, I think there's a good case that it would be more useful in priscus than it is in komodensis given how much slower they would be than their smaller relatives.

@@sampagano205 I'm aware, I never died it, what isn't a matter of debate is a hunting strategy that revolves around biting the prey and then retreating while toxic compounds do all the work, most prey komodos hunt is dispatched relatively quickly.

Until there is more research I am sticking with what is known, or at least well supported. The saliva itself also has toxic components separate from the bacteria. So it really comes down to how you define venomous, but for this purpose it is close enough to say it is, at least until researchers resolve the issue more.

The thing is though that you can hit it with a spear from further away. You don't need to be right next to it, so while I'm sure it probably ate or killed people at some point it was almost definitely a more one sided interaction.

The Komodo is NOT the same taxon, they are distinct species from distinct lineages.

@@Dr.Ian-Plect Ian I'm sure you are absolutely correct. I was merely retelling a story, one that fascinated me. At the time I'd not heard of Komodo dragons, or even the place. It was at least another 40 years before I heard of Megalania! But in the interests of the story I'll explain a bit more. I, a love struck chap of about 22 was going on a date with a truly stunning girl. The date was a village Christmas concert/carol service and pantomime all rolled into one. In those days one was expected to spend about half an hour chatting to your dates parents. The other custom, as mad as it sounds today, was to have a drink with them, typically sherry or scotch! Anyway I made some stupid comment about how a virgin birth was preposterous, to which my dates father explained that there was one animal that could have a virgin birth and hence the subject of the Komodo arose. He then went to tell of his encounter in the Northwest territories with a giant Komodo. He wasn't a fanciful chap, dour matter of fact, slightly grumpy, dead straight Scottish sea captain. I'm certain he wasn't swinging the lead (lying). To be frank he probably wouldn't have had the imagination. What he was describing was an Australian Komodo, he believed they were all over the Indonesian islands but the king Komodo, the biggest of all, was the 20 footer he'd seen on his bush trip whilst he was waiting for cargo. It was me who interjected Megalania as a theory. Be blummin' amazing if it was! As a footnote recently, in the last 6 months or so, one of my best friends told me he'd taken my very beautiful dates virginity. For about 10 minutes I had the full pang of jealousy! Kindest regards P

@@phillipchadwick8269 The virgin birth part is a well known reproductive strategy called parthenogenesis. I appreciate the context, were you not a bit more than jealous about your ex?

Sadly she wasn't my ex. Never got there. Unrequited love that one. Don't feel sorry for me though. I became one hell of a player. But she really really was a show stopper. Hey ho! Best etc P

@@phillipchadwick8269 ok!

Yeah, I was lost on that part too. I'd assume less fossil means a lower total population.

Can I see the pictures?

I'm just the guest host when my husband, the actual paleontologist, is busy or out in the field and we still need to get a video recorded. So this is only like my 3rd time doing one. I do have him still check the script to make sure all of the science and research is correct

Dimetrodon isn't even real reptile, it was synapsid close relative to ancestors of mammals.

Given how that was clearly a joke, I don't really see the problem.

Because she's an adult?

@@eviljoel an adult have limited vocabulary?

minute

Well, that's rude. Especially since it is explained further that that's not how it works.

Yeah pretty cringe ngl

@@mhdfrb9971 yeah indeed. but no, i was pretty drunk and angry when i wrote that. so no i love allmost all people

Being 'woke' is pretty cool

WTF are you talking about?

@@thecondescendinggoomba5552 Um no, it's cringe.