What Was Life Really Like In A Victorian Workhouse? | Secrets From The Workhouse | Absolute History 

My lovely mum was in a work/poor house in Staffordshire from 1941 when she was 12 until 1944 when she was 15. Even today mum cannot talk about it. Both her parents had died and that's why she was sent there. She was from a very poor family so that was bad enough. Now and again she will speak of what happened and then gets so upset she cannot carry on. I feel so sad for my mum and others that were forced to live in those awful places. I count my blessings every single day.

When I was growing up, a common phrase I’d hear from my family was “ you don’t want to end up in the poor house!” I never really grasped exactly what that meant. Now I understand how much of a threat, a scary thing that actually could be.

I am not from a British decent and have no relatives that went through this system however, this documentary made me cry and realize that as a private citizen in my own community I am not doing enough for those in need. Things are about to change.

As an American raised on Dickens and Stevenson, I’ve had an interest in Victorian England and Scotland for decades. I only recently learned that my current city, Louisville, Kentucky, also had a workhouse/poorhouse. I think a lot of Americans don’t realize we had this system too. What a shame. Being poor is a crime today.

My great aunt's husband and his sister were sent to the workhouse circa 1870 when their parents died. While they were there the sister was hit across the head by the matron, with a set of heavy keys. She was one of the poor souls who died in these hell holes. She was ten years old.

My great aunt, born 1903, was terrified to the day she died about ending up in the workhouse. Not that she was ever in it, and she eventually had a good job as a forewoman in a shirt factory in Derry, Northern Ireland, but what she saw happening to others in her lifetime remained with her forever. God rest her and all souls who lived through those terrible times.

I live in America. I came across this video by chance and decided to watch it. I had never even heard of the "Poor House" as being a real place. My siblings and I grew up really poor, but we never were so poor that we went hungry for very long and we always had a roof over our heads. We had to wear clothing that the church would give us and shoes as well. My mom worked at many jobs, ironing, cooking, laundry, etc. My father left us when my sisters and I were small as he was a violent alcoholic, so it's good that he left. But there were times when my mother had very little and she used to say, "At least we aren't in the Poor House"! I never knew what she meant until today when I happened upon this video. Amazing !!! She has now passed on, bless her heart! I will always remember her saying, "At least we're not in the Poor House!"

The love his mother must have felt to name him Friend. That just stabbed my heart to bits for some reason.

Now I know why my Grandparents always said, "Turn out that light! Do you want us to end up in the poorhouse!?" It actually sounds worse than being homeless in the open air. We are *SO* incredibly blessed, even spoiled, nowadays. Even those of us with very little money aren't as bad off as the people then.

I'm Canadian, born and raised, yet I can remember my mum and her aunts speaking of the Workhouse. We didn't have such a thing in Canada, but my mum's family were Irish immigrants, and were dirt poor. It's amazing how through the generations, the fear inspired by the Victorian Workhouses, reached Canadian shores. The scars inflicted weren't just on those housed within its walls, but on those who knew the stories of others who had been.

Awwww the one where the old man saved enough for his funeral at the age of 91 so as not to be a burden even in death made me cry.

My mother Peggy missed out on the workhouse by being placed in an orphanage run by a church. The nuns were so cruel. Peggy was in the orphanage from 9 till 18.she could not leave at the usual 16 as all her mother and step father could offer was a mattress in a celler. It affected her for her whole life. Broken families and poverty ruin generations.

What's sad is that people are still treated like criminals for being poor.

My Nana was born in 1945 in London and was abandoned by her mother and she grew up in an orphanage. Definitely not the same as the workhouse, but she has always had difficulty talking about her time in the orphanage and the few times she has spoken on the subject it makes her very emotional and the conditions she described sound very similar to the condition people would face in the workhouse. A very sad and harsh reality. It’s hard for modern day people to fathom the sorts of living conditions there were not even that long ago.

I find the actor's genuine outrage and disgust at the system very refreshing. It gives this documentary a lot of heart. God rest the souls of these poor people who suffered needlessly.

I found out my grandmother had a twin sister who had died of starvation when they were just toddlers. She only confessed this to us on her deathbed. I still think about this everyday. Tell your family. They deserve to know.

I can relate to what Patrick said I'm afraid of poverty still, it came from my nan who was terrified of bein poor an being sent to the workhouse she was born in 1907, bless her that fear has travelled down the generations...

"Poverty regarded as a crime." This sentiment hasn't changed. Same as the idea that it's the fault of said person for being poor. The only real difference is that the poor aren't dissected to repay their so-called debt to society. Mostly.

I love how Brian Cox is so outspoken and he's rightly horrified at the lack of care and treatment for the poor. Opium and Asylums were all the people living in these horrendous conditions and physical pain were offered. The asylums were more like torture chambers with the boiling baths and hysteria machines. Just awful. I'm glad Charlie made it. He gave his Mother a happy last few years as well.

I love the pride Alma has that her children never knew the struggle and shame that she felt, but I hate the pain she still feels at what she couldn’t have helped.

This video opened a window to my family’s past. Now I understand why the worst thing for them was being “sent to the poor house” . How many times did I hear my grandparents say this! For the lower classes this was a very real reality that had a huge impact on them psychologically even if they never entered the doors. Now my question is whether or not any of my ancestors actually did end up there. I think the answer is most likely yes.

Dickenson did a good job describing poor house, workhouse, debtor's prison, and orphanages . This had the advantage of video which drives the Dickenson words into disgusting reality. Thank you.

My family has secrets, that my mother died, telling very few of them. One she did tell, was that her grandmother, when she entered menopause, was put in an asylum in England, and never heard from again, which must have been horrible.

Living on the stairs while your child and grandchildren lived in a room feet from you is the one that sticks with me.

This brought me to tears. How incredible for Bert to have formed love and forgiveness in his heart and brain. Extraordinary.

My husband and myself took in Charlie Chaplin's great-nephew. Let me tell you all, this man is 84 years young, been through Hell and back, and he's the most kindest, sweetest, generous, compassionate, warmest, down to Earth, smart, and a military vet. I LOVE learning historical events, people, and crimes. It's intriguing. There are many, many things that are taught on here that history classes simply cannot do it justice. I hope that everyone is having a wonderful, relaxing and safe weekend. God bless all of you, and your loved ones.

It’s sad to hear that a lot of them only entered the workhouse because they needed healthcare. And even more devastating when you realize that here in America, people in poverty will commit crimes on purpose to get into prison… for the healthcare. 😢

I love stumbling across history videos. I can’t believe this isn’t something that is taught in our history class. It’s crazy that this went on for such a long period of time as well.

This was heart breaking to watch. My 3x great grandfather was born in a workhouse in Cornwall in 1834. The family story that was told was that his mother and father were in love and wanted to get married but one (or both) of their families wouldn't allow it. My 4x great grandmother was then sent to a workhouse to have the baby. After she had the baby she registered the birth with the local church and listed my 4x great grandfather as the father. At some point someone from his family went to the church and had the pastor cross out his name. Her baby was taken from her at some point. He was sent out and fostered with a lady. Two years later she was back in the workhouse and had a second son that she named the same name she gave the first son. That fact has always sort of bothered me. But I understand it now. Her child had been taken away from her and she was trying to replace him. Her first child eventually immigrated to Canada. His father eventually claimed him. The next clue I have about her is she witnessed a marriage when she was about 42. I have no other information on her. I cannot imagine that her life was okay.

My grandfather died in an Irish workhouse.Before that they lived in actual ditches. I only found this out this week. I also did my phyc training in a one that was turned into a phyc hospital, actually still had the old workhouse records.

The fact they're called "inmates" breaks me heart.

This episode was so heartbreaking but I loved the journey of their ancestors into the hearts of their descendants so long after. Brian Cox’s story was specially beautiful. He got to know that his great grandpa got this meet his mother when she was a little girl. That’s precious and such a reward for Patrick! ❤️

My grandmother was brought to South Africa from Scotland in the early 1900's. Love to follow up on this history of the "orphan's" who were "exported" to South Africa. Loved this documentary. Real history ♥️

It's so beautiful to see people so affected and with the ability to feel (empathy) for people from long ago who they neither knew or met

Mind-blowing how well they kept records of everyone.

I had a sweet, elderly friend in Aberdeen, who always horrified me by spitting at the wall of what used to be a place for unmarried, pregnant women. Only there. I think there was more to the story, but she never told me anything of the horrors behind those big walls. Only later, did I understand why.

So much tragedy, trauma, and despair. But in the sadness, stories of small victories. Hannah (Chaplin’s mother), rescued from an asylum, lived in luxury with her son during her last 7 years. Carter Friend was able to fight to the age of 91 and be buried with dignity by family. Patrick did get to see his sons, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter. Little bits of sunshine for these innocent people trying to make it through life against a hateful society and stigma.

As someone presently unhoused and involved in social work/public health, it's kind of wild seeing how the anti-impoverished-people prejudices of Victorian people are still echoed in stigmatizing beliefs today. Love what useful empathy lessons this historical insight teaches modern people.

Heart-wrenching -as a person with a chronic illness I almost feel lucky

these kinds of family secrets are so heartbreaking. i recently learned that my grandma's dad lost both his parents during the mexican civil war at the age of 6 and spent the rest of his childhood alone on the streets with no one to care for him. i can't even imagine the horror his everyday reality must have been. how he mustered the strength to find himself a steady job despite being an illiterate orphan with no training, marry, have children, and dedicate his life to providing them with the best life he possibly could is beyond me. he somehow even learned how to read and write in his 50s (he obviously had zero opportunity for education as a child). my mother and grandmother always talk about him and how generous and kindhearted he was and the fact he was that way after the trauma he'd faced is astonishing. i had no idea about the horrors of his early life until i was trying to make a family tree, when my grandma told me the truth about his childhood and that no one knows anything about his parents or anyone that came before. he only told his family the truth in his old age, and would not elaborate further as i'm sure he suffered enormously during his time on the streets and didn't want to relive the trauma of whatever awful things happened to him during that time.

This is horrible. The trauma so many people experienced is heartbreaking

Hearing stories like these, really makes you appreciate the life you have. Yes, I have dealt with many hardships, pain, loss and heartache. But nothing like what the people who lived in the workhouses dealt with. It was a living hell for them.

Isn't it funny how the problem is called 'poverty' when in fact the actual problem is 'greed'. Or maybe we should call poverty a symptom of greed.

It’s a blessing to be able to trace your ancestry back so far. It’s the one thing that makes me and other descendants of Africans forced into slavery feel so lost. Nothing known about where we came from. These are some hard stories to learn but better to know your family than not. I have learned plenty listening to this documentary. Thanks. 💜

Seems the Victorians looked upon the poor and or destitute as less than human. The same as an unwed mother, to condemn the women as if they became pregnant by themselves. Then heap shame on the child for being born. They were sadly lacking in compassion. This was a most interesting look into the Poor Houses. My heart went out to all the people who were looking for familial history.

Literally heartbreaking what these people endured during this time . They were stripped of their dignity. Workhouses were hell holes 💔

This is history . Very interesting documentary , and well done. Thank you . Sadly in some places in the world poverty is still a crippling reality for millions of people .

The workhouses were a great kindness to the poor and destitute. Without them the poor, ill & outcasts from society had almost no hope at all. My mother was born in an workhouse and my grandmother died in one. Life was very tough in those days and rules were severe.

my Grandad was orphaned and ended up on the Mars Ship Scotland, where he was with many other boys, they taught them trades, but it would have been rough going for sure, eventually he became a soldier fighting in WW1, watching this documentary made me realize that our world is still treating many around the world the same way as then, I call that beyond tragic

When Barbara Taylor Bradford's relative became pregnant she was working as a domestic servant in a home. I wonder if she had been abused as so many domestics were by the men of the house and then turned out when they found out she was expecting.

My gt x 3 grandmother was born and spent her childhood in a workhouse in the 1860s. Its so heartbreaking to hear how dire conditions were and ot quite frankly makes me so angry that we seem to have forgotten that this is what life was like for so many.

My the 1970' and 80's nan used to always say - "You'll have me in the workhouse' as a joke when I asked for anything. I always wondered what she meant. I am amazed to learn they were operational until the 1940's! The fear of poverty has driven me to this very day. Cox is right about poverty being in the DNA.

I’ve been doing some archiving for my aunt and her elderly MIL, cataloging old slides and photos from the 50s onward. Which is how I uncovered that my uncles grandfather was born in a workhouse, then sent to an orphanage that’s best described as “the model for Oliver Twist”. It’s just so crazy to realize how RECENT some of this stuff happened!!

Such a cruel system. I cannot understand how poverty is seen as something worth punishment instead of trying to make things better so people are in a better situation.

I am American but I read Jennifer Worth's books many years ago. One is about the workhouses and throughout the other books many patients also live and work there. I was honestly so struck by it all and just how behind America is with the working poor. When my dad passed, if not for his brother we would have had to get a loan to have him cremated. This video was so interesting and well done

Treating poverty as a crime that's sick 😫

It's kind of like a message from our great grandparents to never give up our ancestors are truly inspirational People I am in awe of them and am going to try my best never to complain again

I dont think it's fair Barbara should judge her grandmother for having illegitimate children. She was in service at that house as a young woman. Time off was very short and sometimes not allowed at all. It wasn't unusual for the young servants to be raped by their employers.

Fascinating, thank you, and , thank you to the people willing to expose their family history.

This is why I don't mind my taxes going to welfare. Yeah I know some ppl will scam the system, but if I can help even 1 family that needs it. I'm happy. When you know what politicians do with our money. You will be a fool to be against food stamps. The kickbacks, private jets, golf trips, sending their kids to top-notch private schools.

My grandma spoke about 'ending up in the poor house' as a dire warning. I remember the tone she used which left no doubt that it would be the worst thing that could happen. She was (like I am), from a working class background. The workhouse would have been a genuine possibility for them back then if they'd had the misfortune to become ill and lose their jobs. The old workhouse near us is now an expensive private home. I wouldn't want to live there.

History always repeats itself. We are headed back to this exact economic evil.

This is exactly the type of documentary I love, I don't have a lot of interest in the kings, queens and lords of the past. I find everyday Joe bloggs from the past much more fascinating, the stories of the working class of the past to me are where the best stories are.

I am amazed at the neat and precise handwriting of people's history written on those books so that now people can trace back their loved ones.

I have heard from studying criminal justice that children were put in the same prison as adults so I am sure many of the children were abused physically and mentally and sexually but it has went on for years even in these days children still have to deal with abuse but years ago I imagine it was worse struggling for food and a warm place to sleep

Always recall Dickens' words ("A Christmas Carol"): (Scrooge): "are there no workhouses, no jails?" (Kind Gentleman): "yes, but many would rather die than go to them"; (Scrooge)" then they should die now and reduce the surplus population"

my grandmother was in the workhouses but i never really inderstood what that meant. she would only drink out of a china cup (proper teacup) as she said a mug reminded her of the workhouse. she used to say this little rhyme that went something like "christmas day in the workhouse and the white washed walls were black". she lived such a frugal life that my dad and his brothers never had much except for simple food. her biggest fear was any of her children (or extended family for that matter) to have "a paupers grave".

This story of the Victorian Work House has left me in tears!!! I've never heard of so much cruelty toward extremely poor people, after all poverty is a condition not a crime. I live in California , in my way to work to San Francisco year after year I've seen homeless people in the worst conditions and frankly not too much has been done for them. Poverty hasn't change its face, and people are still stigmatized. The family histories of these people are very sad, so much misstreatment, separating men from women , mothers from their children, beating them, starving them, putting them down, ignoring their feelings, dreams and hopes.. How unjust to condemn women for being single mothers but the men that contribute to those pregnancies could walk on the street with their heads up high!. In any time and place women had suffered more than than men and and so much is expected from us. Is painful that one lady could never see her little sister and she had no money to pay her fair. The English government at the time were evil forcing poor people and children to emmigrate to Australia. Those children were practically kidnapped from her mom. And later the government says sorry? How about some financial compensation to the survivors of their horrible acts? Thanks for sharing these families stories, English history, and the policies and the punishment for being poor. Blessings to all the survivors and the ones that are dead RIP, ♥🎋♥🎋♥🎋

Watching this as an Australian is wild... To see how people were forcibly moved here and have become part of our culture and history, just mindblowing. Makes me want to look further into my Great Great Grandmother, who came over to Australia from Scotland.

One of my female ancestors died in a Staffordshire Workhouse. My mother would respond to wasted food or damaged clothing with: "you'll have us in the Workhouse!" The scars ran deep, but memories are short and there are still people in Britain today who are callous enough to demonise the poor. They call themselves Tories.

My abandoned as a child Grandfather ended up at Westpoint and being a college professor but never ever felt sorry for himself! Kind and thoughtful all his life he always said his parents gave him everything he needed to be successful; A strong mind and a strong body. I'm so lucky to have known him 💓

Pointing out that the poor today aren't much better off than this. It's not in the DNA it's in the system.

When I started working in the ambulance service over 40 years ago, there was a Geriatric Hospital in a converted workhouse. The place was enormous, 96 bed wards with nearly 40 in total. It was extremely traumatic for the patients and ourselves when we had to transport people to be admitted. As soon as they saw where they were going they would start to scream, shout and fight to get away. I often thought it was cruel to use the former workhouse that way. It wasn't the only former workhouse used as a hospital. Other examples in Liverpool were Alder Hey Hospital and Mill Road Maternity Hospital. There were others but I don't know them. The Geriatric Hospital was demolished and is now a housing estate. That's a shame as it had the best NHS restaurant in the country, with waitress service, A La Carte and preset menus. It was brilliant.

It was a terrible thing to end up in Australia as a child from UK. I lived in Australia and saw the Museums showing in great detail how these Children were treated with immense cruelty.Boys were forced to work the land, many with regular beatings and little food. Unpaid slaves. Girls were also forced to toil on Farms as unpaid labour, or cleaning houses and treated deplorably Babies and young children were placed in homes, cared for by drunk matrons. Many died of neglect, even babies in their cots, unfed , unwashed and given no mental , physical or emotional stimulation and care. I ended up walking around, looking at the little faces in photographs ( all drawn and emaciated ) in tears. Obviously there were some who were lucky and with good families

It boggles the mind that people once thought THIS was how to deal with poverty, may their souls rot in hell forever for the suffering they caused! Pay people a living wage for their work is how to be just. They simply didn't pay people their worth and then made it the fault of those they were unjust to to being with!

Awww..I totally understand why Brian was so emotional after learning about his ancestors. My father's mother died in Dublin of tuberculosis after the war, My Dad was the oldest of 6 kids. He loved my grandmother & never forgave his father for leaving her, himself & his siblings because she was a German protestant my Dad's father was an Irish Catholic. Thankfully my Dad's sister, Lily O'Connor wrote a book on their struggles growing up poor, facing adversity & hardship daily but I was so proud of her perseverance & devotion to her children until she died. 🌷

Utterly cruel... I'm weeping in horror for these unfortunate people!!

These high class folks looking into their ancestors lives will never understand the hardship that comes with living in poverty then or today. Even in modern times those who live in poverty, those who are homeless are looked down on and ostracized from society. Some states in the USA have even criminalized being homeless and feeding them. It's disgusting how so called "civilized" society treat those who cannot fend for themselves

😢😢😢How tragic history holds such devastating secrets of the times. The stories are gut wrenching and very emotional but we need to continue to learn from such terrible situations and strive for a better way of life and understanding so it never happens again.

Mr.Cox, the system still sucks. You just managed to get out of the bottom. I'm happy that your family was able to make it. They gave us a great actor

What happened to Charlie Chaplin's mother is terrible I feel so bad for what happened to her, an asylum would have been horrific and she was sent there because she had beaten! What a reason! I am sure plenty others had similar horrific tales 😢😢

I was born in the Willsden workhouse infirmary off of Acton Lane, which later changed its name to Twyford Lodge "to protect those born in the institution from stigma in later life" as its website says.

Loving son who rescued his mother ❣

I would like an episode or more on the "Magdalene laundries", or, more commonly "Magdalene asylums,". Ireland, from the 1800's until 1984 (that's the last I know of. They were a terror to Irish woman for decades.

"Are there no prisons?" asked Scrooge. "Plenty of prisons," said the gentleman, laying down the pen again. "And the Union workhouses?" demanded Scrooge. "Are they still in operation?" "They are. Still," returned the gentleman, "I wish I could say they were not." "The Treadmill and the Poor Law are in full vigour, then?" said Scrooge. "Both very busy, sir." "Oh! I was afraid, from what you said at first, that something had occurred to stop them in their useful course," said Scrooge. "I am very glad to hear it." "Under the impression that they scarcely furnish Christian cheer of mind or body to the multitude," returned the gentleman, "a few of us are endeavouring to raise a fund to buy the Poor some meat and drink, and means of warmth. We choose this time, because it is a time, of all others, when Want is keenly felt, and Abundance rejoices. What shall I put you down for?" "Nothing!" Scrooge replied. "You wish to be anonymous?" "I wish to be left alone," said Scrooge. "Since you ask me what I wish, gentlemen, that is my answer. I don't make merry myself at Christmas, and I can't afford to make idle people merry. I help to support the establishments I have mentioned--they cost enough; and those who are badly off must go there." "Many can't go there; and many would rather die." "If they would rather die," said Scrooge, "they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population. Besides--excuse me--I don't know that." "But you might know it," observed the gentleman. "It's not my business," Scrooge returned. "It's enough for a man to understand his own business, and not to interfere with other people's. Mine occupies me constantly. Good afternoon, gentlemen!" - Charles Dickens - A Christmas Carol

I imagined being in a workhouse was that hard from the little Joseph Merrick wanted to talk about his experiences. If it was hell for other people, imagine for a person like him, who society didn't accept.

So interesting how it gets recorded or alluded to as Mary having an "extramarital affair" but never mentions the possibility of a child being the result of a "rape," as though that could never happen to a woman in the early 1900's. Give me a break. The poor women could have likely said she was raped and yet, somehow, it'd still be her fault. So glad things have evolved since those times.

This touches me but prior to care houses, the poor or homeless were 'kidnapped' -- rounded up from the streets by gang-like profiteers and sold into indentured servitude or slavery -- that's where the word 'kidnapped' comes from. Life is harsh and history shows that. Early workhouses reflected those times. Institutions cropped up to stave off burgeoning crime and the fast-growing problem of child-gangs, especially in urban areas. They called it moral terpitude. Parents sometimes brought their children to work houses to prevent their being kidnapped or falling into gangs. Remember the street-life of Oliver Twist? Eventually the institutions' purpose and methods changed. My hat is off to those who worked so hard to improve conditions for themselves and those around them.

All while the poor are "living" like this, the wealthy class are trying to find new ways in which they can spend aka waste their immense wealth. I heard of one account where a railroad tycoon, I think his name was Billings, ended up spending 50,000 pound on dinner at a restaurant which today would amount to 1 and half million dollars. All the while people are dying from starvation and abject poverty. Its just infuriating to think about.

This series is incredibly moving.

This is incredibly sad. The Royals should have been appalled and used some of their wealth to help these people. Instead of prancing around in their finery.

It’s sobering to think that the conditions within some peoples memory were so terrible. I’m in my 60’s and a lot of people my age will remember the feeling of being always numbingly cold in the winter with ice on the inside of the windows. We didn’t have a bathroom, and hot water had to be boiled in a big galvanised bucket. But we were lucky as there was an NHS and an umbrella of the welfare state. I can’t help feeling annoyed when people are whinging about not being able to afford to put central heating on.

Here in America, I can only imagine that there are those in our society and government who salivate at the thought of these work houses becoming the norm again.

I wish someone would create a documentary on the " debtors prisons" . and " work farms " .I have heard that the latter was a place for unwed mothers years ago.

Our system now isn't much better. I'm 80% service connected disabled veteran with 4 young children. If we miss 2 paychecks we are out on the streets. Life should be better than this

My love to you all for showing us your families history, I also cried at the heartbreak you went though in your discoveries. I know nothing about my Mums roots only that she was sent to a orphanage in 1920 aged 2. I guess it gives many of us hope we may one day find answers.

I am reading the stories of your parents/grandparents, I am so sorry they had to go through that, I send you all my love and strength

If you haven't read the book, or seen the movie Angela's Ashes, I recommend it. Beautiful but tragic.

As an Australian who doesn't know much about my family's history, I have to wonder if any of my relatives came from the poorhouses of England as orphans or grown-up orphan/returned soldiers who were sent here as children or came here after the war. Forever separated from our families & our history. it's all so cruel and although it's not the same as the poorhouses we still have a lot of poverty, increasing homelessness & huge wealth disparity to solve and it's my belief that it stems from the greed of the wealthy. They, if anyone should be the ones to bear the shame of poverty, not the poor who already suffer it and generally don't have the power to change it as much because they are too busy surviving it.

We have been reading Henry Mayhew's book on the London poor and it's ghastly. Why did not Queen Victoria help the poor more, when she was on the throne so very long? Big rich country at that time.