What Went Wrong with Legacy Characters in the MCU 

I think Shuri and Riri could have provided a very interesting contrast. Shuri being African, super-privileged, used to doing her inventing in the best-equipped lab in the world, Riri being African-American, never having any of Shuri's privilege, used to hacking things together from scrap. But of course since Shuri has her own arc much more crucial to the film, there isn't really time for that, and it just felt like a big missed opportunity to me. I'm only halfway through, so I don't know if you get to this, but imo this all goes back to Black Widow in Iron Man 2 and then her solo movie being pushed to release after the character is already dead.

I still can't get over how they contrived a plotline in the same year for two separate chrachter in two separate films to make a teenage girl feel like they are responsible for the villain killing dozens of people to get to them.

17:47 I think the best time to introduce Riri would’ve been in Iron Man 3. They should’ve replaced that white kid that Tony hanged out with for Riri. Have her help fix his suit, which would inspire her to make her own. Tony, seeing her intelligence, offers to mentor her on the side.

I think one of the biggest problems with the MCU as far as legacy characters are concerned, is that superhero comics dont end, but movies have to. The confidence that they had to end Endgame the way they did, with the most beloved early characters tying up their loose ends before just moving on? That was brave of them, and it payed off. It painted a picture of a confident studio that knew they were closing the book on a media franchise, and knew they'd have to start over with the same confidence and bravery that got them to that point. And then that confidence EVAPORATED overnight! Its like this weird haphazard race to the bottom that favors quantity over quality, where characters don't have any time to think or feel or BREATHE, where the concept of a multiverse takes precedent over telling a halfway decent story, where new characters aren't given the kind of time we'd need to fall in love with them. Im so sick of the multiverse stuff and I feel like its not even in full swing yet. Im so tired of seeing superheros make confused expressions looking at things they don't understand. Im so tired of all the "WOAH THIS IS LIKE MY HOME BUT DIFFERENT AND WOAH YOU ARE LIKE ME BUT FROM A DIFFERENT PLACE WOAH". Stuff like this is why I STOPPED reading superhero comics! And now its infecting the medium that was previously immune to its trappings! When everything in the present is obsessed with what comes next, you create a shallow present. They're not doing their franchise any favors by shoehorning as many characters as they can into badly constructed stories. I really wish they would prioritize just making a good movie. Is that so hard to ask? That one of the most profitable movie franchises ever just makes ONE GOOD MOVIE instead of ten mediocre ones?

I agree that America Chavez was wasted, but I think Riri was worse because of how she affected the worldbuilding. The whole point is Wakanda and Vibranium is supposed to be a tier above any other earthly power; then you have an American teenager with minimal resources build a battle suit that can instantly compete with Wakanda (yes, Vibranium makes the suit much stronger, but even the original suit was very powerful). That just breaks everything the worldbuilding was trying to do. She did not fit in the story, and including her was a disservice to both the character and the story.

Probably the most frustrating thing about how these legacy heroes have been treated by the MCU is that if they can't get treating these actual minority characters right, why in the world should we trust them to handle the message and metaphor of the X-Men? (which particularly sucks for Kamala considering how they haphazardly paperclipped her into that franchise)

As one of the four people who've actually read the ClanDestine books I think I can explain why they used them for the Ms. Marvel show: in the comics they're one weird family and their mom is a genie, which is why they have superpowers. Someone at Disney was like "oh, a genie? like from the middle east!" and the rest was history.

i think the biggest issue for me has been how these characters aren't given their MOMENT. Aside from Ms. Marvel, none of them got their own origin. Ironheart should've been introduced in her own series or in Armor Wars, where she could've at least been involved with Tony's legacy. similarly, America should've shown up in her own movie or in something like Captain America 4, where she could be a true legacy character. like people have been saying, marvel is trying to do too many things at once (setting up kang, setting up new avengers, setting up young avengers) when they should be focusing on new stories and building up new, full characters

Love the video, definitely been feeling all of this too. It feels so obvious that they're only giving us more female and minority lead characters after the first phase was fully over (not even giving us a Black Widow solo until AFTER SHE DIED) because they didn't want the ~risk~ in phase one. That would be its own issue worth examination, but to have all of these movies and shows also be significantly worse quality just feels like they think they can get away with throwing scraps? It just feels so insulting that they expect us to be headempty "mmm yummy thank you for the RepresentationTM!" We can SEE you can do better, stop trying to hedge your investments just because the angry corner won't watch the movie lmao

Few of these legacy characters appear in books as tightly written as Kate Bishop in Matt Fraction’s Hawkeye run. In turn, Kate had the best introduction in the MCU because of it.

On the topic of Lunella, I'm pretty sure she was sidelined because the Moon Girl cartoon was already in the works (which is pretty good, BTW, even if it got hardly any promotion)

Personally I wouldn't have minded seeing America Chavez first appear in the Loki series. partially this is just because I mostly know her from the Young Avengers were her dynamic with Kid Loki is really great. But also that way you could maintain her confidence by having her act as a knowledgeable guide to the multiverse. Think Mobius but more explaining alternative universes than just time travel stuff and also more willing to kick Loki into orbit if he pisses her off too much.

I honestly hadn’t thought of America Chavez as a legacy character for Captain America (despite America literally being her name Lol), because I thought she was so wholly original. Thanks for helping me see that! :) I was disappointed that seemingly half of her dialogue in her debut film amounted to her “screaming in pain,” according to the captioning.

As a Pakistani-American, Kamala Khan and the Champions have meant a lot to me. Kamala's introduction in the MCU (and the subsequent retcons in the comics) have left me continuously disappointed (your comment about how many times she's died and come back made me 😭). Regarding the changes to her origin, I understand the good intentions of the writers to link the partition and djinn folklore to her powers. However, it also bothers me because the comics portrayed her Muslim and Pakistani identities as the most mundane parts of her life. In the MCU, she's the second Asian-American superhero, and like Shang-Chi, her existence has to be justified by linking her powers to her home culture - but unlike him, her powers were *not* linked to that *at all* in the comics. I can't help but feel an air of orientalism in the decision to alter them in the way they did. I don't want to blame the writer's room. I'm sure there was a back-and-forth about how accurate to the comics they could be (since Fiege hates Inhumans, lmao) and the options they had for changing her origin. ETA: also, it’s just frustrating that the culturally-specific lore was immediately tossed out in the show’s end credits scene (which was added in a reshoot), so that Kamala could tie into larger universe by being a mutant. If that wasn’t the death knell for MCU Clandestines, they aren’t referenced at all in The Marvels. So, like. What was the point? To me, it further erased any possible good intentions the show could have had by making her culture a key part of her origin, if they’re not even going to play a role in the larger universe. Also, I read comic Clandestines a couple years ago out of curiosity. they are textbook orientalist appropriations of djinn lore who are nothing like their MCU adaptation (it is basically Percy Jackson but two white kids realize they’re djinns). It just feels weird to use one of the very few Muslim characters in Marvel with no problematic backstory to rehab that brand for a modern audience (and then not tie them into anything else).

5:17 I cannot stress enough the “plenty still do” part. I’ve seen in the last two months people call Miles a “pander-verse Spider-Man”, even though the very same South Park episode actually defended Miles as a character. I seen people call him a “usurper” to the Spider-Man legacy. I even seen some people straight up deny that he’s Spider-Man, & purposely call him Miles Morales. Not because it’s his actual name, but to refuse his acknowledgment as Spider-Man. It’s similar to how people called Obama “Mr. Obama” & not President because they refused to acknowledge him as president. Now it’s even more apparent that they don’t like or want him due to his growing popularity because of the films. I know that might be a reach, but it’s just something I’ve notice.

even though I want the mcu to crumble inward on its own hubris, I still love the legacy characters in the comics and you totally hit the nail on the head for how they handled their film introductions! justice for America Chavez (and for the 2020 babysitter's club)!!!!! also no hate to Iman but I wish they kept Kamala's og powers bc I feel like those stretchy, strange, body-part-growing powers had (and always will have) great potential for coming-of-age stories re:metaphors for puberty. great video as always

My hot take? I think the MCU should've closed out with Endgame, and then do a reboot of the franchise. One of the major problems with the MCU is that there are a lot more moving parts that people have to keep up with, including watching Disney+ shows. A lot of which, to be honest, aren't that good thanks to shit like having no showrunners. Casual moviegoers don't have that sort of time and energy to do that anymore. Just doing a giant reboot, and creating more self contained projects afterwards could've prevented a lot of the issues that it's having now, including introducing new characters. Endgame would've been the best point to bookend the whole thing.

I will die mad about what the mcu did to america chavez. She’s such a great character in the comics and they did her SO dirty

This whole situation with the legacy characters in Marvel is just a perfect illustration as to why Disney shouldn't own EVERY SINGLE MAJOR cultural and creative property on the planet. They have a cookie cutter formula that they use to flatten and water down every story that they try to tell. They have so many genuinely interesting characters and so many diverse messages that can be shared with the world but we're never going to be able to experience them, at least not in any film capacity. It's such a shame that Disney believes that their audiences don't want to engage with cinema in a meaningful way. Most people's introduction to these legacy characters will be through one of these bullshit films and it will likely turn them away from any of their stories that are actually worth checking out.

It needed to be said greed crushed the creative spirit that these films used to have. Some of these legacy characters are being written so thinly i would've mistook this for a sitcom (obviously not all sitcoms do that). It's really frustrating to watch a character that has so much potential as Riri or America get done so dirty

I feel about the MCU the same way I came to feel about comics and network television; if the primary goal of your project is to get me to buy the next project, then you have no reason to tell a real satisfying story and instead are just going to keep giving me “stories” that are all fluff and promising that next book, next season, next movie will actually be the meat. Well, I’m done with that, I’m done with Marvel, and Gunn’s new DC has the shortest leash possible before I give up on it too (it is getting some consideration only because I like Gunn as a filmmaker, and the comic the upcoming Supergirl is based on is amazing science fantasy in a way that we don’t generally get on the big screen). Support independent filmmakers and those who actually have a story to tell, not corporations who just want to keep you watching for one more month.

I honestly don't understand the stupid choice to give MCU Kamala such an overcomplicated backstory. Just have her get hit by some fancy gas in the pilot that gives her superpowers then just leave it a mystery for the rest of the season. If people like the other inhumans stuff you start throwing down later on you can retcon it terigen mist if not then just have it be some random superpower giving chemical as a nod to old school comics. Heck the comics didn't even feel the need to establish what gave her powers until she was already an established hero it really doesn't have to be that important. Man I miss the days of the old Netflix MCU where they could just have Jessica Jones have powers and that be a secondary concern to the actual plot.

Shuri is honestly my favorite MCU legacy character followed by Kamala. Wakanda Forever, despite its flaws, told a very compelling story of an ingenious talented black woman struggling with loss, grief, imposter’s syndrome, and anger. The BP mantle wasn’t meant for her and yet she reluctantly took it. She became one of the most compelling characters in a franchise where those are becoming hard to come by. I hope they figure out a good story for her going forward.

Just remember, I was born in 1962 and have been collecting and reading comics since 1969. These are literal numbers. When Marvel comics first came on the scene, they were different. DC and other comic companies were doing pretty much the same thing. Every character was a Superman or a Batman, some of them really dumb, some interesting. But Marvel comic had that "this is happening in the real world" feeling. Every comic from back then are not highly classic collector's items. Let's not also forget that the X-Men, in their 1st series, was so unpopular they began to reprint their earlier issues in renumbered comics. So issue 88 was actually a reprint of issue 20. What Dave Cockcrum and Lein Wein did was update and diversity the concept. And it was new and fresh and for over 100 issues it could do no wrong. This is what happens to comics, and this is what's happening with comic movies. Sooner or later the "new-ness" rubs off. The comic companies are scrabbling to stay relevant. DC refused to have any real continuity for years, then blew up their whole comic line in a Crisis just to get on board with comic continuity. Marvel began to print multiple series of their popular comics. At one point there were six Spider-Man title, almost 10 X-Men titles, three Avengers Titles. And for the most part the shelves were crowed and for the most part they sucked. Remember, this was the era they thought having a villain drug and molest Carol Danvers so she could have him as a bady. This was the era they introduced Rogue by having her completely steal Carol's powers and then be stuck with them for most of her life as an X-Man. (I never liked that story, it had so many problems.) Remember, at one point Image comics was new and fun and exciting. Then the new-ness was over and people realized that the writing in all those #1 image books was the worse. When Iron Man hit the scene Marvel did something that felt new and fresh. Between Iron Man and Endgame they had new and fresh. Now Endgame is over and the new-ness is over. Add that to the horrible racism and sexism characters of color have to face, and you've got a recipe for some bad times, until they stop, take a breath and try something new. It's how comics go.

Honestly, I have enjoyed most of the legacy characters, I just wish we got to know America Chavez a bit more. I know they’re going to a Young Avengers or Champions, or something with the kids. Edit: Yeah, the reason why they are overwhelming us is because they’re greedy. Greed is great to undermine any project.

You can tell that if Disney wanted to try with a Legacy character they could and Yelena and Kate are the perfect examples. Kate and Yelena were both given ample screentime and plot momentum to be important to the narratives not just for themselves but for the characters they are taking the mantles from. Blackwidow and Hawkeye were perfect mantle 'givin' (I don't know lol) characters because they were always side characters in a larger ensemble that only recently got their own solo stories. So when audiences were introduced to their protege's it felt fresh and new as we were meeting new characters and seeing a different side to characters who have predominantly been in the background. The amount of care and effort given to Kate and Yelena was never going to be extended to characters like Kamala and RiRi.

oh thank f you are covering this, youtube keeps reccing me "mcu's Woman Problem" videos by white dudes with anime animal/furry rigs

Here's a hot take straight from the 90's: the problem with Legacy Characters in the MCU is simply that Marvel shouldn't have legacy characters in the first place! Legacy characters are a DC thing. Marvel characters are supposed to have their own identity. And if a new character does put on the costume of an established hero, its meant to be temporary, and the replacement gets his/her own identity once the replacement-story is finished. I.E. replacement-Iron-Man fights on as War Machine, and replacement-Captain-America is forever known as USAgent.

The RiRi situation has ALWAYS made me upset. I really enjoyed her character in the movie but whew when they had the suit appear I was big mad. And then to make it seem so thinly referencing Ironman 1 with when he flew his suit for the first time was embarrassing. It felt completely disrespectful to her character and like a cheap knockoff, which is what people were always going to say anyhow so thank you Disney. I have beef with the Wanda movie because she was also my favorite supervillain. There is no one topping her to me lol. So, that whole movie is unspeakable to me. And then the aspects of horror, from a film perspective, that were clearly diluted either out of pressure or lack of time was just an even bigger bust. Her horror mirror scene is the only good thing that came out of that movie. America as a result was just a complete loss. Like, I already knew to give up expectations when I realized she was in a Doctor Strange movie and Doctor Strange was just empty already. Most of his character development had been on hold for waaaaay too long to suddenly try and add nuance. Kamala is great but I'm one of the blessed. I never read the comics and I have yet to see Marvels since I'm waiting until DIsney Plus. The complete ignorance helps. P.S I still enjoy Captain America the most. It's up there with Ironman, GoG2, Thor 3, etc. . . but like idk that old 1920s movie aesthetic gets me every time. And somehow also makes me nostalgic for Hellboy(2004) in a good way.

At this point, I wonder why the writers do not invent their own super heroes, that they can then design to work well on screen, instead of digging out some comic book characters that lack the name recognition to bring in enough of an audience on that, alone, and that need to be changed significantly from the source to be adapted to film.

I’ve been reading comics for 25 years and I just kinda accept the new characters as they come 😂 l liked May Parker and I don’t see her anywhere anymore

Yeah the big problem with this phase of the MCU is putting too much priority on the interconnected structure of the MCU at the expense of individual characters or stories, with Multiverse of Madness being maybe the worst victim. Every show and movie has had so many external story requirements that there was very little room for their creators to be creative. Instead of being a framework to build on, the MCU has become a box they have to fit into.

you really hit the nail on the head when you said comic book and comic book movie fans (myself included) have always been in denial about the corporate schlock they would turn into (and to some degree have always been), until it became undeniable. egg on our face indeed

America Chavez was a massive disappointment. But I think we'd be remiss if we didnt note that Marvel has done a couple legacy characters well- namely Sam Wilson's new Captain America. Because he was estblished and got time (something I agree should have been done for Iron Heart too). Kate Bishop's new Hawkeye and Florence Pugh's new Black Widow are good also. I like your points about Riri being introduced earlier so she and Tony can have that rapport, and Kamala's stretch powers tied to her insecurities (which of all things, the Avengers videogame does better than the actual MCU). Shallow storytelling pretty much sums it up for each one of these. And that's what a lot of people have been saying- but they just get called haters, and "ists".

The writers of these fillms don't read comics. Entire characters are props/plot devices. Its pretty lame actually.

All the goofy ass retcons made to America Chavez made me uninvest in the character. America was also totally wasted in the film. She was a walking plot device.

To use Miles as an example in legacy characters in comics is honestly a poor choice. His comics introduction was so badly done that he became spiderman without having a single interaction with Peter. Peter was dead and his whole understanding of Peter's motivations was Gewn (I think it was her in the ultimate universe?) saying a completely random kid in his funeral what it was. Racism may be a reason for some people, but not for the majority of people. Spiderverse fixed Miles horrendous introduction in comics, but Miles is actually an example of how not do an intrudction for a legacy character. Honestly, comic Miles has the same problem you pointed out in some cases here, he had zero interaction with Peter, Spiderman died and then he was introduced, even Dr. Strange had more interactions with his legacy character than Peter had with Miles. It's a good thing that the comics it's not the first introduction of many people to Miles. Thanks the video games and movies that fixed his story, it is so badly done in the comics.

When they introduce the X-Men, I don't want them to treat mutants as this new thing. I want the people in-universe to already know what mutants are, it's just we, the audience, haven't seen it.

8:50 this is why I’ve enjoyed What If so far, since it’s animated they’ve had a lot more flexibility to have a range of characters appear and make the world feel more interconnected.

The thing that has boggled my mind the most and to me this is like a great symptom for what this video is talking about is that Shang-Chi came out. Everyone loved this movie. When loved the main character, everyone loved the new aspects of the MCU that they built. Everyone loved the tasteful representation even with the flaws. It's a good, amazing ass foundation to build off of. And considering that this was one of the first films in phase 4, especially with Eternals tanking everyone immediately thought. Oh, this is going to be this arcs iron Man. This is the character we love that we're going to rally around that we think is cool and it's going to be the driving force against Kang. We're going to see him and all these extended scenes. He's going to have his own sequels and everything...and then nothing fucking happened. They had their best film yet with essentially iron Man but with actual minority representation and they went fucking nowhere with it. Or comparison? Imagine if the first iron Man movie came out and then they did all the other movies and then it wasn't until avengers Infinity War that Tony Stark shows up with the same exact plot line in that film as if nothing ever happened. Entire audience would be completely confused. And when I saw that happening, I knew that Marvel majorly fumbled somehow. Just for a record, I'm not even of East Asian descent and this bug the crap out of me. Especially because again you have white Tony Stark and they made two sequels and featured him and then we have a character occupying the same space in and time that everyone equally likes and everyone wants to be this arcs iron Man and it kind of feels like oh he's Asian so we're just not going to do anything with him. Why people get mad when Disney tries to do quote" progressive stuff because it's extremely surface level. It's a throwaway and they don't do any meaningful shit and this is a great example of it, which is why I'm not surprised that all the other characters they've done they've also completely screwed up in terms of representation.

Honestly, the writing has been on the wall that they aren't going to do any legacy characters good when they consciously chose to adapt the worst version of Captain Marvel to the big screen. Carol Danvers herself is a legacy character and the way they treated her in the comics, especially coming off of her time as Miss Marvel, is horendous. For some reason, they turned her into literally every bad white woman stereotype after she took on the mantle of Captain Marvel after the previous one died. Fairly certain it was her husband Mar-Vell, but I could be wrong because continuity isn't comics' strong suit. For heaven's sake, she literally kicked off the Civil War storyline herself due to what basically boils down to her wanting to kill a black kid so that he wouldn't grow up and possibly commit crimes...

"Good luck with not making Kamalas powers not look creepy in live action." So did we all just forget the early 2000s Fantastic Four movies?

The thing I really hate about post-Infinity War MCU and trying to introduce these legacy heroes is that they abandoned the young ABC Studios heroes. Cloak and Dagger, the Runaways (especially the Runaways, holy shit), hell even SHIELD's inhumans like Yo-Yo and Quake. Kevin Feige is too far up his own ass.

As a Puerto Rican, I will never forgive the MCU for retconning América Chávez from Afro-Puerto Rican to indigenous Mexican. It's peak "Latine people are inter changeable so let's just go with Mexican because that's what white audiences are most familiar with." I have no issues with the actress herself or Mexican characters, but they should have cast her to play a character that was ALREADY indigenous Mexican in the comics instead of retconning an Afro Boricua hero. So fucking racist to both groups to equate one with the other. Thank god that at least Miles is being done justice (character wise) over at the Spider-verse movies, but my Puerto Rican lesbian heart weeps for what América could have been.

I don't mind small introductions for legacy Characters, but they need their own Origin Movies people need the chance to get excited about them.

I think the most damning thing about the MCU in it's current incarnation is the rumours regarding the return of Tony and Steve. Their inflated salaries would only damn whichever movie they came to since the focus would be on these personalities. It marks the transition to the young avengers as an after thought, and it treats the fans of any kind of media as unthinking consumers. People loved the MCU when it made good movies and Marvel-fatigue exists solely when the work is dry and barren.

Its crazy that Elijah Bradley has been so underused that there is not even a segment about him. That's how forgotten he's been in the MCU even though he's a huge asset in the Kang arc in the comics. Which is one of the reasons why I was happy to have the Kang arc once he was introduced. And so many characters haven't even been introduced yet. Out of all of them introduced Khamala has had more time to develop and the actress was able to get more in the eye to be a public darling like the counterparts before her. The clandestine is a disconnected tissue. Also I don't mind the power change because no one complains about Miles Morales power change. Because his powers are more cinematic than his comic book counter parts. So I get it the powers look like trash. But I feel like the powers of being from a generational power pain and using it as a strength is a stronger story than "Weird brown girl is weird just cause"

*PSA: No specific shade or hate for characters of any race/sexuality/gender, just clinical observations of the market audience as both a film enthusiast and former comic book reader* I think the things we're refusing to acknowledge are that 1) a lot of these Legacy characters were and/or are not received well in comics, so their film adaptations without notable changes won't be either. Let's not pretend Ms. Marvel, America Chavez, Riri Williams, Mighty Thor, etc are flying off the shelves. Rather, their books regularly get canceled. Pretty sure Kamala Khan just died in comics, and in Peter Parker's book, not even her own, and no one cares. I think she has a game out too, and again, very little fanfare. And Miles Morales is popular because he has found a NEW audience through cinema and video games. His books aren't written better or different, and continue to underperform and/or outright flop 2) their film adaptations are into a currently dying franchise/genre 3) they're all young girls and/or queer when the vast majority of the paying audience for comics and their cinematic universes to this day are straight males (and females, to a much smaller extent). It's a power fantasy; men want to live vicariously through them, straight women like looking at them, if they show up for a CBM at all 4) they're not adapting the women or POC that people DO care about. MCU needs the X-Men because most of the beloved Marvel female characters are from those comics, like Storm, Rogue, Jubilee, Mystique, Emma Frost, Kitty Pride, etc. DC has all my favorite POC characters, like Static, Icon, Vixen, John Stewart Green Lantern, Steel, Cyborg, etc 5) if you adapt an openly queer character, the budget will have to be scaled down (if they are not part of an ensemble team-up) to reflect the size of the receptive audience. Bros, the gay romcom flop, failed because it forgot that romcoms are a dead genre and specifically target STRAIGHT women. Why the hell was it over 20 million with no handsome star power? Even Brokeback Mountain was made for cheaper at 14M, and that had big stars like Jake Gyllenhaal, Heath Ledger, Michelle Williams and Anne Hathaway. Similarly, you don't center gay characters for the core demographic of straight males at 200-300 MILLION that needs worldwide (most of whom are conservative) audiences to turn a profit. 6) Race/gender/sexuality swapping is rejected by most fans. Don't expect people who've read Superman for almost a century or watched him since the Donner films in the 70s/80s readily accept a black Clark Kent/Superman movie like Ta-Nehisi Coates keeps trying to get greenlit. Especially when ICON AND STEEL EXIST FFS. General audiences will be more forgiving, but only if it's GOOD, and as mentioned in the video, MCU is struggling to realize ORIGINAL POC/queer characters for the big screen, never mind messing with classic iconography. *PSA: AGAIN, NO HATE FOR DIFFERENT KINDS OF CHARACTERS. But we have to be realistic about the audiences for these characters as well*

America Chavez and Kamala Khan were some of my favorite characters back when I read Marvel comics. It's disappointing to see how they're being handled. That said, it's not surprising considering how Marvel treats a lot of its productions (god forbid they actually give a proper budget and production timeline to anything animated; it's laughable....which can also be said for non-marvel shows like Invincible). A real shame.

I’m Latino & I’ll admit that many of us don’t care about representation as much as other minorities. But what I find deeply distasteful is when we’re pandered to, as was the case with America Chavez. The inclusion of the character was pointless & irritating. I dislike this concept that every single movie needs to have every frame look like a UN or Greenpeace meeting with every makeup shade included. I’d much rather have only 20% of the movies be actually focused on Latinos, where a Latino plays the MC, there’s a Latino family, etc. Encanto is a nice example, not MCU ofc, but Blue Beetle also did a pretty good job as a DC film. Don’t just throw in a Chavez as a plot device for the WM leftist filmmakers to virtue signal to each other on their DEI, point at her & say “oh look, short & brown!” 😂

My biggest concern with the legacy characters is the problem of miscasting, colorism, and whitewashing. In the case of Wiccan and Speed, I don't want to see the roles played by actors who are not Jewish and/or Romani. I'm not interested in watching Ms. America, and I believe that the casting directors are to blame for their choices. However, I am also questioning the decision of the actress who accepted a role that shouldn't have gone to her.

I dont call Riri Williams, Kamala Khan and America Chavez like "Legacy", are more like unpopular characters.

Even if you introduce these characters "right," that contingency of grifters and their CHUDs will always hate them.

MCU Wanda was done dirty, everything she went through just to turn her BACK into the villain. I had such high hopes for her story and DS2 became just a Scarlet Witch fan service power trip/ad-space for possible spinoffs.

I hope this includes discussion regarding the recent "synergy" retcons for America and Kamala in the comics because GIRL DO I HAVE SOME THOUGHTS

I watched this early but just commenting to say that a couple years ago I was genuinely excited for the possibility of a young avengers group, the idea of America Chavez and Kamala khan and Riri Williams and Kate bishop in the MCU was a big deal for me bc I love these characters, even with some of their problems in the comics. Now seeing their lackluster introductions, I feel the missed potential. Genuinely, not having America Chavez interact w Steve and Riri interact w/ Tony before their departures is such a weird choice. And you make a good point abt Miles not always having been so popular, I’m just glad his movies have been such a success. He feels so well-realized in a way these other legacy characters aren’t.

I agree so much with this. I will add it really feels like the female characters and most the characters of colour weren't treated with the same care and respect that the original white male characters were and it's sort of depressing because they could be truly phenomenal. That being said, Kate Bishop in Hawkeye was awesome, as was the introduction of T'Challa. And some of their "newer" introductions just aren't interesting.

RiRi wasn't a real character until Eve L. Ewing wrote her Iron Heart series. Thank god her and Saladin Amhed got their hands on her and Miles, respectively. Also, I've been loving Ewing's work on Black Panther. Ridley lost me about 6 issues into his run.

I want to validate. I like Riri and I think she added something fun in Wakanda Forever but I totally see your point especially when you bring up the Iron Heart reveal moment. It felt shoehorned in and forced, I felt annoyed when I initially saw it but I couldn’t quite but my finger on it

It's really annoying how because they used a lot of handsome white men as their leading lineup and burned us out on superhero movies with them now the fact that they're adding more minorities to try and bring back some variety and interest it's being blamed on those characters being minorities thats causing the movies to do worse now. When for the most part its just general superhero and marvel style humor burnout.

Iman Vellani is amazing as Miss Marvel; but they fumbled the bag hard while changing her powers. She should have kept her powers of stretchability. They are so much fun.

Well them prioritizing the message over storytelling is what’s hurting Disney, rather going the natural storytelling route they derailed it for brownie points for Blackrock

My heart goes out to all the fans of these modern legacy characters. I was a fan of Kyle Rayner back during the original Ron Marz and Darryl Banks run and I will never forget H.E.A.T. and the moronic hatred that character received. To have that weird, nostalgia driven man-child hate and combine it with racism/sexism, that is just too much. I don't know how people put up with it.

...what do you think of the Runaways series and the Moongirl cartoon? i know they're not like, "MCU-synergistic" or whatever, but they felt like enjoyable adaptations and were good as standalone series. hype for moongirl s2 if we get it.

MCU's mistakes : - stretching itself too thin (yet ....as a plan it might have seemed brilliant.... at least for a fleeting moment... why not milk it as much as we can while it's hot?.... the danger? ... that it would become what it has become.... sort of not focused and all over the place). - it put the heavy weights on the freezer (I'm talking about Iron Man, Hulk and Captain America) while trying to promote characters that were never that popular in comic form. - it tried a lame approach when it comes to Diversity and Inclusion. Lame as in boring storylines for characters not that interesting. Case in point : the male version of Captain Marvel in the comics ..... was a very boring character. Switching its gender didn't do much to make the character more relatable. MCU's version of She-Hulk is so smug that it would make its comics version blush. And it makes me sad to see the vitriol that some people (mostly guys) have directed towards some of MCU's female characters. They're not the majority. Diverse characters need better scripts. Some examples of great strong female characters : Lieutenant Ripley in Aliens, Thelma and Louise, Geena Davis as Dottie Hinson in A League of Their Own and as Samantha Cane in A Long Kiss Goodnight, Elena Montero in The Mask of Zorro, Evita Peron in Evita, Elizabeth Swan in Pirates of the Caribbean, Queen in Queen and Slim, Cassandra Thomas in Promising Young Woman (radical narrative yet in a wonderfully written script in a very entertaining movie). Peace.

No offense to the actress who played America Chavez, but she was just not a good match. She wasn’t a new take on the character… she was nothing like the character. No to mention American Chavez to me always felt Puerto Rican coded and not Mexican. And she was darker skinned, had coarser hair and was taller. It almost feels like they made her petite and lighter skinned to fit some Eurocentric standard of beautify.

America Chavez, who's legacy character is she? Riri Williams cant really be legacy character of Tony because Tony knows nothing about her. Same goes for Kamala, shes just a fan of Carol Danvers. Legacy characters should have been introduced alongside the original heroes, like Bucky, Sam, Rhodey, Yelena, Kate Bishop

RiRi should’ve gotten introduced in Iron Man 3 and been the kid Tony bonded with. Monica being introduced as a child in Captain Marvel was really smart but the way she was handled in WandaVision was so frustrating. She was literally a mammy and her character was fine in The Marvels but she should’ve gotten her own series on Disney+ and RiRi could’ve also been featured in that show. We could’ve seen Monica giving a seminar to MIT students about whatever and RiRi could’ve stopped afterwards and mentioned how she knew Tony since Monica could’ve mentioned some of Tony’s tech or something. The legacy characters have to be introduced alongside the original character and go on their own journey.

My stance on legacy characters is that they work best when they either have an actual connection to their predecessor, like Kamala, miles morales, robin, etc. Or when they are a completely separate reinvention of the character like hal jordan is a reinvention of alan scott and michael holt is a reinvention of terry sloan

Marvel comics sales are getting lower every year...America Chavez is not popular if she were she would help sell more comics, but this is not the case...she doesn't sell comics, just like Captain Marvel, Ms. Marvel, Riri don't sell comics either...these "legacy" characters don't sell anything, in fact they hurt sales.

To be fair, apparently the creators wanted Kamala to be a mutant originally but had to make her an Inhuman because Disney was trying to push them at the time.

You said it. All of it. I'm so sad about the way Kamala was handled. She's my favorite superhero, and I think she and Iman were both done so dirty. I care so little about end-of-the-world-ass stakes in these movies and shows. I tune in for a Spider-Man and a Ms. Marvel because I like the friendly neighborhood shit.

As a long time comics reader, recent legacy characters such as Marvel now initiative have not worked in the in the comics. If this has not worked in the comics, what made the MCU believe that theses characters would work in another media without any successful source material from the comics? None of these characters exist in the mcu beyond plot Device. Identity is not a character but most of the young characters introduced currently in the mcu were not asked for. As a long time reader of Marvel, the quality of writing at the company has been trash since the 2000s and this the result of the current mcu due to poor story reference material. I agree with your statement that if the character could be anyone, what's the point of these legacy characters beyond identity. Disney brought a male brand only to destroy it starting with the comics which provides the R&D for the movies. The problem with these characters is they were created with agenda. This is what happens with Disney. The mcu formula was flawed from the start like you said 1st Avenger. Disney has never known has to manage a male brand exhibit A Marvel, B starwars & C John Carter. Like with comics, when runs fall off; you move on to a better produced & written comic. I guess studios must be taught to respect the intelligence of the audience/consumer. Content does not equal quality; Ask star wars fans have that's working out Marvel.

The problem with legacy/slant characters isn't that they don't have decades of established narrative but really deal with the terrible character's presentation and writing prowess. The manga and anime scenes always pull newer stories and adapt them well (Most of the time) and adapt them well because they actually put effort into creating interesting characters.

Legacy characters to me are a celebration of what has come before and what we are progressing towards. The first time i read about variants and how we could all be Iron Man, i was hooked. There's nothing more inspiring in life for me than the idea that I'm not limited to being Prodigy, i could be anyone in the story and it's not just my imagination, but on the page. That's what comics are for, imo. To empower, encourage, unify.

Hot take: Riri Should have been introduced in Iron Man 3. She should have been the one to help Tony instead of that random kid, it would have fit better with the relationship she has with Toney in the comics especially if Tony had done the same thing for her as he did at the end of Iron Man 3 for that one kid. It would have been easy to make it seem like over the course of the MCU he was mentoring her on the side like he was mentoring Peter except Riri wasn't able to build her suit until she went to college- not out of spite because society doubted her abilities because of her being an African American woman, but because Tony was one of the few people who believed in her and nurtured her growing love of technology and engineering. Tony being an influence in her life would have meant his death would have hit her and maybe given her more motivation in helping Wakanda. It would also make it more believable when Wakanda Forever sets up her mention of reverse-engineering an Iron Man suit because she would have been mentored by the guy who made the actual suit in the first place. I know that Disney and modern media want to show people of color- especially colored women as completely capable and infallible beings who are magically capable of designing mech-suites in their garage with nothing but a multimeter and aluminum foil, and no I'm not saying that Riri's ENTIRE motivation for what she does has to come from Tony you can have multiple people as mentors and inspiration who are any gender or ethnicity. Tony's mentoring of Riri in this case just makes perfect sense, he's done it 2 other times and he's done it many times in the comic books so I wouldn't have seen that as an issue in this case because none of this goes against his character and gives Riri a more believable background than her just being a super genius for no reason other than she is. I don't think that would have quelled the "Anti Woke" crowd, they're going to whine and bitch about everything because anything that isn't ideally conservative triggers them, but it would have at least given people who actually have a functioning brain more of a leg to stand on when these dumbasses start spewing their garbage reasons as to why a movie is bad that way they couldn't just say Riri is a Marry Sue because the audience is told that she's a genius even though in Iron Man we're told Tony is a genius and that's fine for some reason.

something i do need to articulate about Shuri in Wakanda Forever, because atheists rarely get good rep that makes a point of the character's atheism: i love that her journey never needs to collapse back into mystical spirituality. she finds a way to cope with her trauma at the end that both dovetails into the Black Panther MCU canon but also maintains and does not invalidate her own belief system.

Yeah they made America just a generic Young Affable Sidekick to Gruff Sarcastic Man Who Can't Talk About His Feels. It's pretty beige.

To be fair, Ms Marvel was always intended to be a mutant, but was forced into being an Inhuman because of the original IP issues. Good riddance to the Inhumans tbh.

My boy, 9, first got introduced to Kamala Khan through the Avengers *video game.* The only good part of that game was that it put Kamala front and center and seeing her grow was awesome. When we saw her in theaters (he liked the first episode of the TV show, but it was too slow for him,) he was so excited, and afterwards we had a great long talk about how fun it was to see her on screen. And, ultimately, how it would have been nice to see her more! All that is to say, you are 100% right and it's a goddamn shame that people can't give Kamala, or Riri, or America, or anyone a shot because the onboarding is serving two masters. If they just told a story, told their stories, then it could be another Miles Morales situation. And you are 100% right, I still remember being so bitter at seeing people tear apart Miles at the start. I don't think it's gotten better since then. Anyways, always very thoughtful and well put together, thank you for your hard work, I just wanted to share that there are young fans coming up and they are eager for some next gen, but it'll take some work to get more on the train.

I had superhero fatigue after Avengers 2, especially during the Netflix era of Marvel. I was surprised how many people were still invested even leading up to End Game. I think when Ready Player One came out that I was just completely done with big cgi blockbusters, and had a whole A24/indie horror shift in my media consumption for a time. I’d see the occasional MCU movie for fun but I wasn’t invested. Then when the Disney+ series were getting released I was completely checked out of it all at that point. It’s sad because when the 1st Iron Man came out it was so good and I was excited to see the potential of what was to come. I thought the MCU would succeed where X-men franchises failed, and it did for a while. But now they’re on the same level if not worse. I’d rather watch Wolverine fight an adamantium Samurai than watch Eternals.

Dr Strange and the Multiverse of Madness was where I really started to think that the MCU doesn’t care about quality anymore America Chavez, Riri Williams, and Kamala Khan all deserved quality introductions to their characters if they are gonna be important to the franchise. And while the last two, imo, did get that time, obviously especially Ms Marvel, the portrayal of Chavez was embarrassing I didn’t know much about the character going into the movie, but knowing what I know now, they basically did the same thing they did to Rogue in the X-Men trilogy: a walking Macguffin with no super strength, no self-confidence, and in need of a man to save her In the case of MOM specifically, it’s to save her from a 1-dimensional psychopathic witch who was originally a complex, relatable, compelling 3-dimensional character…who became evil by unwittingly reading the wrong book Barf

I have been saying they need to bring Loki back into the movies. Tom Hiddleston's cult of personality is why the character is so popular. Seeing him now as this omniscient time god helping the next generation would be cool. Heck they could have him and Steven be friends. It would be a hilarious contrast to how Steven treated his variant. There are too many new characters people don’t care about. They need to exist alongside the Avengers era characters so those original actors can bring in audiences.

I'm one of those people who cosplayed America Chavez back in 2016, seeing her in MoM was so disappointing like I've never been so let down in so many ways. She's not Caribbean, she's not queer, she doesn't have darker skin or curly/coily hair. She's not connected to her moms or her team. It's just here's this teenager who doesn't know anything about herself so she can just be whatever.

I love america chavez. I've done street cosplays of her. I was so fucking pissed at what they did to her.

Changes are not bad, but hiding the original and thoughtful work with cut and paste bullshit that's here, not to mean anything, but to set up some future movie I'm also expected to pay for is really sad. These characters matter and it sucks that Mavrel doesn't seem to think so.

Yeah... America was the sign for me that the next wave of Marvel is going nowhere

Having Riri Williams have a "next time, baby" sort of moment would've worked a lot better

Hearing what they're trying/not trying to do with the Inhumans these days always confuses me because I thought Agents of Shield did a great job of introducing and using them, especially Daisy (played by half-Chinese actress Chloe Bennet). The way her finding out about her new powers is paired with learning about her birth parents is great, and her having a pre-existing maternal relationship with Ming-Na Wen's character to set up the emotional conflict is pure kismet. Honestly, I can't imagine why they haven't scooped any of that cast up to reprise their characters in these movies -- I imagine it's to stop people from complaining about having to watch it all, but I'd say it's worth it (if just to experience what TV used to be like before the streaming model took over).

This is barely related but like also the audience who would be interested in these black n brown legacies are currently boycotting Disney and honestly even after a ceasefire happens i know people who will continue the boycott until a permanent ceasefire happens or something even after the fact.

When Riri "Oppress Me" Williams was in grade school, she demanded that a teacher oppress her, so the teacher sighed and said, "Alright, you can't be ... Tony Stark." That's "Oppress Me" Williams' origin story, that's the reason she does what she does, but it gets worse. Without the creativity and original thinking skills of Tony Stark, she's reliant on an AI created by Doctor Doom to teach her how to use the tech she creates, up until Doom takes back the AI and uploads it into the cybernetically enhanced corpse of Tony Stark.

Only ones I like so far are Kamala Khan and Kate Bishop.

America Chavez was cast so young on purpose. it was a very intentional move because the higher ups at Marvel know America Chavez X Kate Bishiop is one of the biggest ships in the whole Marvel Comic book universe but I know for a fact because I worked in the industry and have talked to plenty of people who worked on Kate Bishiop books that they refused several different creators begging to have her be bisexual. Over several years of writers asking and fans asking Marvel at every step refused because they don't want the movies to be gay, America being young lets them avoid queerness in most ways, she can be a two moms and pride badge girl and if you ask why she isn't dating women or why she isn't like a sexy lesbian icon like in the comics they can come at you for wanting a kid to do those things.

The MCU version is less ms America Chavez and more ms Canada Chavez

I believe they should've introduced Riri as one of the students working closely with Stark in his internship program, or they can just go with that moving forward, so that they have some sort of established history/mentorship together

They’re so popular that their comics get canceled 🤭

big problem is the stories aren't about actual storytelling just virtue signaling Take Kamala Khan - the main token cause the creator is in control of Marvel comics for all intent and purpose, getting her self insert shoved into MCU after not even 10 years of existing for a vanity and social buzz for "diversity" she's a token character same to America Chavez - a neither american nor any hispanic or mexican heritage character who's name is only their to imply ethnic while being a token gay alien with (in comics and movie shortly) gay alien les parents for no other reason than brownie points these characters exist for buzz than actual character writing and that's why they're so weak and why legacy characters go wrong in MCU - they're not done for any good reason: just to kick out the past cause they view them as problematic

I liked the Marvels for the most part and thought it was fun, but it felt like popcorn-good, but not filling. I really needed the relationship between Monica and Carol to have an arc. They turn from barely speaking and furious to hey-it’s-cool SO fast that it made the conflict feel almost superficial. And that’s ridiculous, because there was a lot of potential for really deep, complex growth and struggle in the wake of Maria’s death and how Carol handled it. I just wanted the movie to trust the audience to care enough about complicated adult feelings that they didn’t immediately resolve it in the interest of comedy or punching. The heart of the film really should’ve focused more on Captain Marvel and her Lieutenant Trouble, but it seems like Marvel is scared to present thoughtful answers to the hard or uncomfortable questions they’re raising with their stories at this point. This was a story where the characters and themes were all about moving on from grief and guilt, and yet it was cheerful and uncomplicated AF. Fun action movie, sure, but unlike the first Captain marvel, which I’ve seen a good dozen times, I don’t feel the need to ever see it again.

What went wrong with Ironheart in the comics was that she was the straw that broke the camels back for marvel fans. You want someone else to wield thors hammer, cool, let's see that shake up. You want Sam Wilson to be the next captain America, cool, the shield has been passed before, Laura is going to be the next wolverine, ok, Logan was dead at that point so the mantle is up for grabs, Amadeus is the new hulk out of no where, ehhhhhh.........ok..........Kate Bishop is leading the new Hawkeye book, ok ....she's been around for awhile so that's fine, they kill of iron man so that the Invincible Iron MAN book can be lead by riri who never once interacted with Tony then ohhhhhh boy, that's when people started to see that this could not have been a coincidence. Marvel was looking to replace every main line straight white male character with a diversity character. And cause of that every diverse legacy character got associated with riri and were bashed cause of it

Riri did not need to be in Wakanda Forever.