What You Need To Know before getting Geothermal Heating and Cooling 

We are about to have a vertical system installed by Dandelion in fact the drill rig will be here on Friday Aug 13th (yeah the old superstition). We are located close to Kingston NY and after a small heating oil leak decided to get out of the fossil fuel business! We checked out mini splits but found the maintenance on 6 interior units to be excessive not to mention the holes in the house walls for the refrigerant and drain lines. Dandelion designed a 5 ton system which requires two holes for the vertical loops. The house is 1920 sq ft and has an open design. We also had to replace the old hot air duct system as it was small and made from ductboard. After seeing the condition of the ductboard it was money well spent! Will update this comment after the drilling and install.

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Happy holidays everyone! 🎊 Thank you very much for your support this year.🙏 You impressed us by sharing your thoughts and experiences on this channel helping other people to learn from you. It's been an amazing time with you! And I am very excited for next year! The holiday season puts most of us out of our regular schedules, which can lead to challenging situations. I hope that you have a good time with people you love and who love you! Take care, Katha 🌎🌏🌍 PS - We are 3 people short of 500 subscribers, which would enable community features. So, next year we'll most likely have the community thread. Thanks again and see you soon. 😀

YOU ARE DOING GREAT THINGS ! KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK

Wow, so much great information. Thank you very much.

Very interesting and useful. Thank you for sharing :)

thank you for sharing.

Outstanding breakdown. Thank you!

How the excel sheet has calculated the breakeven point, Break even point is when the energy cost savings equal the amount of the upfront cost but here it is calvulated using the energy cost equals the upfront cost? I might be wrong with my concept, Can you have the explaination for it? Thank You for wonderful video!

Very helpful! A weird aside, as someone that works on TV sets, the weird changes in lighting, coupled with the jump-cuts on this video are fairly disconcerting.

Do you have any comparison models for the north east/Connecticut?

I live in Ohio. My propane furnace and A/C system are nearing the end of their lives. I am looking at Geothermal so this video was very helpful.

I just had my pool (5.5m wide x 13m long x 1-3 m deep) removed and filled in. I very much wanted to lay down some loops, probably could have had 2 levels in the deep end. But even though the excavation was "free", I don't think I could have gotten more than a ton of capacity in that area, or in any event as much as I would need for my ~330m2 house. Also, I think the inspector and contractor would have made things difficult. Finally, even if that all shook out OK, maybe I would never use it for whatever reason. My other thought was just run some simple loop to cool a decent volume of air that I could bathe my AC condenser in when it's on. Would just be a small fan. But again, inspector and contractor would not want the hassle of understanding where I was coming from. In the end, I think it was some lost opportunity, but would have been not worth it or even be possible.

I think a civil engineer and you're general contractor determining how to dig the hole would disagree that it does take up a considerable amount of space during construction. You'd need to actually get the machinery into the area you plan to dig which is critical. Good financial modeling tho!

Great video! Does your break-even calculation take into account ever-rising electricity costs (at least in certain areas)?

Good video, with just the one common mistake of calling “ground source heat pumps” geothermal - geothermal energy extraction is the big, industrial scale type used for power generation using steam turbines in volcanically active places like Iceland or Yellowstone. Lots of good points in the video, though, and the costs breakdown, while US specific, do give a reasonable relative indication for other parts of the world.

Your example location, Colorado, spends most of its energy budget on heating and not so much on cooling. But what of a desert area, such as Arizona, New Mexico,, Nevada, Texas, and high sierra areas of California? Yes, the desert gets cold at night, so heating is required, but cooling is often more than half the budget. How do the numbers work out there?

Can you elaborate on the logic behind this "Additional Heating Required" assumption? Shouldn't this apply to both the electric heating and geothermal? The way I'm looking at it, if there are 65 days in a year where the clouds prevent enough solar to be generated for geothermal then the same should apply for electric heating from solar?

Anyone know where I can get my geothermal system designed. I would like to do most of the plumbing myself and have professional HVAC person install the heat pumps. Thanks

Great explanation. In the long term I think geothermal will win out on costs as economies of scale kick in reducing both the equipment cost and drilling/trenching services. Seeing how close it comes now while both are still fairly niche makes this almost a certainty.

Worth watching.

Geothermal is the best especially with solar panels Was paying 400Now pay $147Thank you Gio

Residential geo costs $3-5 per Watt. How many watts does a 2000sf home usually use?

Wow Heisenberg’s daughter from breaking bad is smart just like her dad. Lol 😂

how does geothermal work for an apartment building or skyscraper? Hotel?

I have a friend that purchased a house with a geo thermal unit he has had the compressor replaced ever 7 years and replace the unit once he hasn’t saved a dime after 20 years he is finely thinking about going back to natural gas

Fantástico!!!

Man... It is such a question. Out here in Ohio natural gas is dirt cheap, as are electricity prices. So changing from anything to anything else is a tough call unless something is both broken and unrepairable, or you can get something for a steal. The equipment costs is rarely going to pay for added efficiency of the system itself, unless the system is already toast. Now, if you are on propane, coal, oil, or resistive heat this obviously isn't true, but most of those systems were replaced in the 80s and 90s. If you have a home before 2000, you have natural gas heat and an AC. If your home is after 2000, it is a toss up between natural gas and heat pumps. So my natural gas furnace is from 1988, and is an 80% efficient system. It has had some work done over the years. The fan is clearly newer. The AC is from 2002-5. At some point someone added a 4" filter slot, and a UV light (which has never worked as long as I have been here). But the electronics and bulk of the unit is from the 80s. First winter here the furnace essentially never stopped, we closed all vents to the upstairs and unused rooms, and the air was horribly dry, and our heat bill was $500/mo+ in winter. It was awful, and we were cold. Several projects later, and in spite of rising fuel costs our Feb gas and electric bill, which is our worst for the year, was $250... And that includes about $30 worth of electricity mining on a couple Gpus. And we set the thermostat to 70*f pretty much year round, and we are now heating most of the basement and attic space. It has been a lot of work over many years getting our bill down that low, but our gas and electric bills have already more than paid for the improvements. So now I am looking at replacing a 35 year old system because we are obviously well beyond expected life expectancy. And picking what to choose is tough. Moving to a more modern 95% efficient system would be 15% off my monthly heat bill... So maybe saving me $200-250/yr? And moving from 2 window units upstairs and HVAC, so a single more modern and efficient AC is going to save an additional $2-300/yr. So let's be generous and say it would save us $550/yr for a $6k system. That would be a 12 year pay-off, for a modern cheap system expected to last 15 years. The thing would barely pay itself off by the time it is broken! And that assumes we scratch up the cash to pay for it outright. Add any kind of finance fees, and and that sucks. And if fuel costs rise dramatically during that time (as is somewhat expected), then that could really suck. Hardly an actual benefit to just riding this thing out and seeing if it can last 40 years! lol So then we look at heat pump systems. My initial looking tells me that they are going to be similarly priced around $6000 so that much is about the same. Overall operating costs though should be more significant savings closer to $750/yr. Now we are talking about an 8 year payoff, which is better, potentially worth financing, and should last the same ~15 years. However,ive heard horror stories about heat pumps in my area. My best friend had one in his last house that would freeze up outside because we hover around freezing, and the humidity and wild temp swings causes problems. I've heard similar issues from coworkers, where the ac is on in winter so the outdoor unit can thaw because it won't work without airflow. It is ironically better when we dip below and stay below freezing, which is rare. Hopefully newer units may not have the same issues? My friends newer home and heat pump appears to work just fine. And then there is the alt heat source. Most homes here with heat pumps use natural gas as the emergency heat sourse. And those who don't complain about very high electric bills with resistive heat. And that is a problem either way. Resistive heat means eating into the potential savings dramatically. Having even the option for gas backup means a $15/mo delivery charge just for the option to have it. And you could turn it off during the warm season, but the shutoff and turn on fees make that nonsensical. So I'd rather not pay $180/yr just for the couple weeks we might need emergency heat... Of course to remove gas it also means replacing our 1990s stove, and 2010 water heater... And I guess those are due for replacement anyways too soon. Then there is geothermal. In many ways the holy grail! Less need for emergency heat, making resistive heat less of a problem. Nothing to freeze up and cause trouble outdoors. Could save us closer to $1000/yr in energy bills. 5 years between inspections for most units. But the problem is price. It can be anywhere from $8-18k in my area... After incentives... Which I may or may not qualify for... such a range! And it doesn't depend on system size as much as labor costs. So it may be near the same price for a 2 ton unit as a 5, which is kind of crazy. And so few are done in my area that I can't get a straight answer unless someone comes out with either an appraisal fee or a high pressure sales pitch. If it is closer to the $8k price range, then it is a no-brainer move to do it as the added convenience and Lowe operating costs would bridge that $2k gap. If it is a $10k job it may be worth doing... But that is a lot of up-front scratch to come up with for hopefully a 10-12 year payback. $12k+ and the benefits become more murkey. I can deal with the grass being ripped out (heck, it would probably even out the lumps!). But like any investment, it is something that pays over time, so sooner is better than later... But saving up potentially $10k+ is going to take time that the current system may not have. If the current system dies tomorrow, it may decide for us lol. And the indoor equipment may still need replacement every 15-20 years like a normal system. But that future replacement should be significantly cheaper at least. And then there are minisplits to consider. Hyper efficient, long lasting, but high maintenance... And I'm lazy lol. Or rather, I'm forgetful! I use 3 month filters and am lucky to replace them every 4 months. The idea of needing to change filters and inspect the 6-8 small units my house would need... That doesn't sound like fun. It would save about $1k/yr in energy costs, and give more zoned options to keep bedrooms warmer or cooler in evenings while letting the larger open spaces have more temp variation. But at the cost of so much constant filter changes? Call me a baby, but that just isn't for me. It may make sense for the upstairs space where we need to redo duct work to make central air more effective.. But even that sounds horrible lol. I don't want to get busy and have a unit die prematurely because I'm an idiot. 1 central filter every 3 months is more my speed. I guess I am blessed by options... So I guess that is good? I'm just annoyed because there are so many other ways I would prefer to spend $6-12k than on an HVAC, and dealing with sales people, and contracts, and home construction. I should just thank my lucky stars that my 30+ year old heater is still running well. At least I am thinking about this now so I can potentially replace it on my terms rather than its terms, which would no doubt be the hottest or coldest day of the year.

FAQ 4 ...how much space is needed...(in my home)? What about outside for horizontal loops?

I am thinking to do open loop geo-thermal myself with 4000$ usd budget. I already have made tools to dug borewell with an worm gear electric drill. I wont be recording my progress but if anyone wants to discuss anything, please feel free.

How deep do you need to drill? What happens if you hit ground water?

Do you have any suggestions on how the information of geothermal heating can get passed onto whatever NGO or Governmental Agencies that can build shelter for the refugee population from the Ukraine war? There are millions of Ukrainian refugees in Poland, and I fear nobody is thinking about how to provide heated shelter for those people when Winter arrives. Combining heat pumps with geothermal heating could heat housing for refugees without requiring enormous heating fuel costs. I wish such information could get to Habit for Humanity, or the European Union or the Polish Government so they can begin to prepare now for will otherwise become a greater human catastrophe than it is now. I might add a considerable amount of the workforce for the construction could come from the refugee population itself. Do you have any ideas on how to make this happen?

You only priced out closed loop which is way more expensive than open loop if you have the necessary available resources.

2:49 "Fact 5: Description"

i wish i knew why everyone refers to it as geothermal when it has NOTHING to do with geothermal heat.

Update: Jan 11 7:43A ET, 13F outside this morning. Water temp in: 39.77F out: 36.5F Supply air: 90.82F Return air: 69.11 Two wells 288Ft 5 Ton Aaon GEO Furnace Electrical: Jan 347 kwh which is equal to about 7.9 gal heating oil with 78 percent efficient oil furnace about 9 gal. Electric: 347 x .177 (our electric rate per kwh) = $61.42 USD oil: 9 x 3.57 (oil price per gallon) = $32.13 USD. There is electrical consumption with the oil furnace to run the blower.

😀😀😀

Biggest thing I believe holding back geothermal heat/cooling is not the ROI math. Its that I can't show off to my neighbors how green I am with solar on my roof or how green I am by driving an electric car... Yet making my home more efficient as upgrading my A/C has a ROI of 4-5 years vs solars 10-20 years. Simply put, it's not sexy.

What happens when PV panels have to be replaced after 20 years? How do we take care of the hazardous waste - many heavy metals - in those systems? Batteries for the PV system? They don't last forever and that is a lot of mining to do. Nothing is free.

Ma'am you are very wrong if you think that Californians only pay 3 cents per kwh. You are defiantly cherry picking those numbers. In Northern California I pay 14¢ through 56¢ per kwh. Those go up after a very small base usage per month as well. I average $800 a month in the summer. How much do you pay?

You are using the wrong term. The term you should be using is "ground source". There's a big difference between these technologies.

This is an excellent commercial for alternate energy schemes but hardly a balanced systems engineering approach to decision making. For instance, should an 83 year old person "invest" in a systems with high up front costs? Its likely that the resale value of the house would not recover the investment. Second, and the most glaring omission is the projected life cycle costs. These ignore the very low reliability of various components and the necessary maintenance and replacement over the entire life cycle. It would be a mistake to ignore the downward spiral of compressor reliability and the switch to hazardous propane as a refrigerant that is lower in efficiency. The presentation suggests that once you pay off the initial cost that you are cost free thereafter. This is of course a marketing mind game that has been used many times in history so hopefully those considering investing will be more careful in evaluating their situation. Finally, consider obsolescence due to EPA mandates. In ten years your system may be declared irreparable. This is not a small risk.

you seem to be conflating ground sourced heat pumps & geothermal power plants. these are NOT the same thing.

The only thing you need to know about geothermal is that air source heat pumps can work down 31 F

70's - solar hot water panels, 90's - hydrogen fuel cells, 2000's - biodiesel - now PV, wind and geothermal - every generation has their own fad that COULD work but when people actually have to use the math, it just doesn't work

If it requires an "incentive" it is by definition broken - we didn't need incentives to use smart phones, google or email - if it works, it doesn't need incentives, much less 26%

Save your time, folks. It is just a talking head.