Philip, I never put up with you, however, I do look forward to our discussions because you always add to my understanding and appreciation of whatever we discuss. Admittedly, I also usually end up with an occasional smug moment or two. Thank you for the discussions, my friend.
Dr Chase’s many guises make these chats so much better. Also I wanted to say thank you for all the chats. The positivity (even when proving critiques) was so appreciated. It enhanced my experience of the season, which I enjoyed a lot more than Season 1. I just wish they get more episodes or run time going forward.
The show did such a great job setting up the S3 conflict between Dain Bornhald and Perrin, and I like that Perrin's choice to keep wearing Laila's ring (Thanks for pointing that out Avi.) is what will lead Dain to the Two Rivers.
I’m kind of liking how they’ve taken key moments and turning points for the main characters and given them a slightly darker edge. In the books everyone struggles with the morality of something at some point, but it’s only Rand who you feel is ever in danger of turning sides or being pushed / manipulated into doing something truly unspeakable. I get the feeling the show wants that same kind of ‘will they / won’t they’ uncertainty to be surrounding all of the main 5 characters (especially when they start coming into positions of power), maybe right up until the end.
Thank you for these discussions, I was looking forward to them every week. I loved this episode, especially the Mat storyline. I don't remember having been this emotional watching TV. It was pefection, in my opinion. One small "blink and you miss it" moment that I absolutely loved is when Rand is proclaimed with the fire dragon, and that look on Masema's face. Talk about set-up! Can't wait for Season 3!
When Elayne asks Nynaeve what she is doing to the suldam, and when Nynaeve basically tells the suldam she will regret being born are both lifted straight from the books. RJ does a good job of pushing our heroes into morally gray areas, and I love that the show not only embraces that but is willing to push them even farther at times. They have to toughen up our heroes for the Last Battle very quickly, and make them believable when they do the hard things.
I think some cheesiness is allowed in a season finale! This was definitely a very satisfying episode for me as well and I think it will also land well with the general audience who has no idea of how the events unfolded in the books. The final scene with Lanfear and Moghedien really hooked me in for the next season, I loved that! Thanks for doing these positive and in-depth discussions, I have enjoyed them immensely and I am really grateful for the fact that you two helped me appreciate the show even more! All the best!
What a wonderful final season 2 discussion! I must admit, this kind of fast-paced spectacle-driven episode where plot lines culminate does appeal to my favorite fantasy sensibilities, and this delivered for me in a way that had me more thrilled and engaged than I had been throughout the show to that point. The upside of how much they've veered from the books is that I'm on the edge of my seat having no clue what's going to happen, and then when certain things I was hoping to occur did (like mat blowing the horn and the heroes heading to battle with him), it got me right in the feels. Yes I had plenty of tiny nitpicks about plotting that didn't seem entirely logical and that took me out of my immersion for a second, but overall I was so invested in it and can't wait to continue!
Thanks for the excellent discussion, gents. One of the things I'll miss most for the next couple of years is your weekly discussions about this show. Oh well, looks like I'll have to go through both of your back catalogues!
Its the first time you guys have turned up on my search for reviews in the entire time that the season has been running and i enjoyed the chat- you have a new sub. As for the episode, they simplified the magic system and plot points but i really enjoyed the episode. E6 is probably still my favourite however. Was good to see the Lan we all recognise and i am really hopeful for mats story. One thing i am loving about the show is the way the forsaken are portrayed.
I am glad that you found us and enjoyed the discussion. I am a big fan of the 'humanising' of all the characters. It has made the Forsaken more engaging, and made the Heroes more understandable. Thanks for watching and subscribing.
I want to thank you and your nemesis for making fantasy fiction that much more enjoyable for me. A big thanks too, to Steven Erikson for being the spark that has brought you all together for me.
Regarding Egwene's killing of Renna and your discussions about it, I would add a comment from a... Feminist? perspective. BOOK SPOILERS BOOK SPOILERS BOOK SPOILERS One theme that RJ picks up and explicitly voices in the ending of book 5, is about women fighting. There's a moment where Rand is being confronted by the Far Dareis Mai about him not letting them fight: Because they are women and Rand doesn't want them to die. Rand has a hard enough time letting men fight and die in his name, but begrudgingly accepts it. He draws the line at women though in an attempt to "protect" them. The Far Dareis Mai (and by extension, the intent of the books) call him out for his bullshit double standard: If men are allowed to fight and die for what they believe, why shouldn't women? Rand believes he is protecting them, but he is sheltering them and ultimately disrespecting them by treating them like children. The books call this out explicitly in the text, however over the course of the story we can tell that the books dont actually themselves believe in this message. It is a very predictable and reliable trend over the course of the series that male villains end up dying: Most often because they go down swinging in a last stand, otherwise they are captured and executed. Of couse they are, that is what they get - they are villains, this is how we treat villains. But the female villains get a different treatment. Far more often, female villains are disarmed and disempowered, then have as their punishment: humiliation, loss of personal automony and some "karmic retribution" giving them their just desserts. Not that the women get off easy with just a slap on the wrist or anything like that, most of these ends are truly awful. But nonetheless it is clearly gendered in the books: Men are killed, women are defeated, shamed and "taught a lesson". In the books, Renna gets her just desserts, as so many other female villains, by being made a damane herself. And what a proper karmic retribution that is! But nonetheless it raises the question: If Rand can kill Lord Turak and his entire personal guard in cold blood because "You were the ones responsible for doing this to her". Then why can Egwene not kill the woman who personally and deliberately tortured and dehumanized her? I agree that the scene in the episode does make the point that Egwene deliberately takes it beyond "justice" and into "revenge". But would you say the same if both Egwene and Renna were men? Did you have a moment where you were disappointed in Rand for stabbing Ishamael in the end, rather than merely shielding him and "teaching him a lesson"? I think the show kills Renna not just to tie up that storyline (as is typical in the books, Renna becomes a minor character we see here or there over the next couple of books), but also to loud and clear make this message: Female villains deserve to die just as much as male villains. And female heroes deserve to be able to kill those villains as much as the male heroes. Here the show is trying to take a message the books lived up to in word but not in spirit, and go where the books could not.
That is a great point. I would still have raised the issue if it had been Rand. When Rand killed Turok and the guards, they were all armed and about to attack him, in fact had specifically drawn weapons to do so. He specifically let the servant live. The servant was not a threat to him. Rand kills Ishamael who was in the process of trying to kill him, Egwene, Perrin, Mat, Nyneave, and Elayne. There is always an element of action and violence being conflated in Epic Fantasy, often with the repercussions of violence being ignored, and one of the things that I have enjoyed in this series is that the characters are all experiencing trauma and the repercussions of that trauma. Perrin kills Bornhald in a berserker rage, an act of cold blood, an act of revenge, but it is partially glossed over because it happens during battle. That deliberately blurs the line, whereas the show runners depict Egwene's scene in stark isolation. I don't think that there can ever be perfect representation of all the factors, mainly because human morality and psychology is so complex, and we all interpret the weight and nuance of scenes differently based on our own experiences. However, I do appreciate that they are offering a more nuanced perspective and not glib violence as action.
I like this perspective. I think the show, and Egwene’s arc in particular are exploring a more nuanced moral grey area and probably the weight of their actions in the aftermath later on. From the perspective that both Egwene and Renna are women, the comparison is focused on the shifting power dynamics. Egwene saying “we’re the same” - they are both as human and could both feel the same pain and inflict the same cruelty. When they are mutually restrained, in that moment, they are both victim and abuser. When Egwene was freed, the power dynamics shifted again. In a sense, it is asking if our empathy for the characters also shift if the line b/w hero/ villian, right/wrong, abuser/victim etc is blurred.
I recently found these videos via reddit and have loved listening to you both analyse and critique with such good humour and positivity (especially given you are each other's nemesis!). I'll be delving into both of your back catalogues while I wait for you to discuss season 3. Thanks to you both @ACriticalDragon and @PhilipChaseTheBestofFantasy 😊
I am glad that you found the channel, and even more glad that you enjoyed the discussion. I hope that you find some videos and discussions of interest in the back catalogue. Thanks for watching.
I should rewatch the "torpedo" scene, but to me it looked like she chanelled air around the fire so it could work under water, making it all the more impressive. One thing I think is iffy on that scene is does it qualify as using the one power as a weapon? I am guessing she gets around this by believing those on the boats are working for one or more forsaken and are theirfore darkfriends, or that rand is in danger which puts everyone in danger, but that would be a stretch.
I seem to recall that in the books Aes Sedai routinely used air weaves to switch or spank people. Plus, in thar specific instance: Moiraine and Lan were physically under attack from the Seanchan, the Seanchan were an existential threat to the world and Aes Sedai in particular, and they were attacking Rand, Moiraine's one hope of saving the world. So I didn't have a problem with it.
Season 2 was a big improvement on season 1. After the "Eye of the World" finale, i had resigned myself to enduring an even weaker season 2 and an inevitable early cancellation. Idk what they changed behind the scenes but i now have high hopes for season 3. The writing in season 2 really carried the show, followed closely by some excellent acting. Lanfear and Ishmael low-key stole the show (ps I really hope they dont recast Ishy). Liandrin deserves an emmy for some of her scenes and Egwenes actor also really showed her stuff this season. Its been a minute since i read the book series, which definitely helps me roll with some the changes, but i strongly believe the writers did a great job adapting and consolidating many key plot arcs. In my opinion, the weakest part of this show might actually be the directing. It's serviceable but the action scenes are over-edited and clunky, which is usually a sign that the director cant direct action well. Unfortunately, our main characters do not become passivists so i hope they can improve on this aspect of the show. Anyways, thank you for great discussions! Cant wait for season 3!
I think a big change behind the scenes was a removal of Covid restrictions. That freed up budget, locations, extras, and eased up on administrative burdens. I think that made a huge difference. I tend to agree about the actions scenes, although for me it is the modern obsession with quick cuts, short shots, and that frenetic feel to an action sequence. I see it in so many films and TV shows. I miss those longer shots in action that gives you a chance to follow the sequence for longer. Thanks for watching and I hope to see you again in Season 3.
@@ACriticalDragon COVID!!!!! Nemesis of good content. This action style trend goes back to the Bourne trilogy, where quick-cuts were used excellently in fight scenes but it added to the overall frenetic feeling of the movie, so it worked. Ever since then, directors have used a similar style to hide their own weaknesses and poor fight choreography. Not my favorite trend in Hollywood.
I sincerely doubt that will happen. But I hope that you have enjoyed the chats that Philip and I have had. I genuinely enjoyed the season and am quite looking forward to the next one. Thanks for watching.
Love these conversations and really enjoy hearing your thoughts! Moiraine’s attack on the ships was certainly over the top, but I thought it was a nice thread back to ep 1 when she was separated from her power, isolating from the people who care about her, and trying unsuccessfully to heat her bath water. At the end she’s reconnected, opening herself up, and able to maintain fire missiles in the ocean.
It was a big, spectacular display, and quite fitting because of that. I am just not as invested in spectacle as I am in the character moments. I loved the Lan / Moiraine re-establishing the bond sequence far more. Thanks for watching, I am glad that these discussions have been interesting enough to listen to.
The threat to cut out the tongue and cut off the hands is straight from the books. Renna tells Egwene that damane don't need them to channel. In the show I believe that the weaves on the damane are all coming from their forearms where the suldams wear the bracer. They do not do a lot of hand movements but rather simple arm crossing in front of their bodies. I could see them accomplishing the exact same motions with no hands and getting the same results. My problem with the line was that Renna skipped the tongue step on the tower and went straight for the hands. Renna is a terrible teacher/parent. She makes a rule and then does not follow the rule.
My thought of Rands ability to use the power to kill Turok and crew harkens from 108 when Moiraine told him when he had adrenaline flowing the power would be there. I think that was effortless for him. He was so upset he had just seen Egwene.
I think there are some brilliant creators out there that remember the books far better than Philip and I do, but thank you. I am glad that you enjoyed the discussions.
I think Nynaeve's behavior was definitely intended to be disconcerting, but I don't think it was about the ends justifying the means. Her trauma is part of it, but I think everything Nynaeve does in that episode is intended to show how thoroughly derailed she's been by her powerlessness and the feeling of being useless-even at the one thing she's supposed to be good at (see the arrow). Putting on the bracelet gave her one last desperate hope of being able to redeem herself; when Seta was killed, you could see that hope being crushed, from the expression on Nynaeve's face. She did something terrible and totally contrary to her nature with the intention of saving her friend, but failed miserably even so. When Rand took out Turak and the Deathwatch Guards, you could see on his face that he had nfi what he just did. I absolutely loved Fares Fares's portrayal of Ishamael, from that initial Old Tongue plea to the very last "nothing at all". I also loved his interactions with Lanfear-esp. when she ribs him for his fussy waffling. I felt Moiraine's behavior towards Lan this season was a realistic portrayal of a person in a relationship going through a very deep and painful crisis. She didn't just fail at the singular task to which she's dedicated her entire life-and for which she's sacrificed every joy and blessing-but she had the very essence of life taken away from her. Many people will recognize similar episodes in long friendships, marriages, etc-a loved one lashing out bc of pain, fear, shame, seemingly intent on burning all their bridges. Lan's behavior is, similarly, a realistic portrayal of a very loyal friend or partner (notwithstanding the tree-peeing fashionista interlude). It was lovely hearing your thoughts on this episode. After decades of being immersed in this world, it's very satisfying to be able to once again feel the thrill of surprise. It will probably come as no surprise to you that men of all ages are venting their displeasure at this episode's many departures from the source material all over the internet. I wish they'd been given more episodes, but I can live with what we got :) cheers
Second season was great! Big upgrade from s1. I had a couple nitpicks though... 1. Shielding doesn't break a warder bond. 2. Elayne is good enough at healing to heal a stab from that particular dagger?
I agree that season two was a big step up. Moiraine had masked the bond back in Season One, and apparently couldn't unmask it when shielded. The scene of it being re-established was overly detailed, but suitably dramatic for the emotional moment. 2. She isn't, that is why it isn't properly healed.
Hahahaha, Philip "Whitecloak: Chase - that was hilarious! 🤣 We enjoyed the last episode, with a few tiny exceptions. Your discussion covered them all, and brilliantly pointed out even more. It was lovely to accompany you on this journey, can't wait for the next season's discussions 🤗 Here's some of my scattered thoughts: I cried when Hopper died, I agree with Philip about it being the saddest moment of the season. I think the actress for Moghedien is very good, loved her little scene there. All these power displays of the Forsaken are amazingly well done. I know there are differences from the books, but even so, I'm curious how the producers tell the story in the next seasons. Without having read the books, I was really happy to see who Matt actually is, what a beautiful twist for this character! The actor is doing such a fine job in the fighting addiction scenes, and then the sheer joy in the moment that his true "identity" is revealed. When discussing Nyaneve's and Egwene's actions, I loved that you both identified and showed that you really understand trauma and its repercussions. I was looking at the group of friends reunited, in the scene where they all fight Ishamael, and I was thinking how they all lost the innocence that they had in the first episode. They've all been through hell, they've all taken lives - and even though this is an overlooked detail, I think that taking a life has a huge psychological impact on anyone doing so - and the actors are doing great in showing this progression, this darkness that has touched each of them. Thank you again for the insightful conversation and for the laughter, can't wait to see your next videos together! P.S. - Philip, there's a lot of special incense in Amsterdam 😋 P.S. 2 - Moiraine sending fire under the water - it HAS been done before, in almost every SpongeBob episode 😂
Your point about their lost innocence is a great one and one that I wished I had really discussed with Philip. It is such a good point about the cost of all these things on the characters as people. So I am really pleased that you have enjoyed Philip and I chatting about this, and more pleased that you enjoyed the show. Thanks Rox. I always appreciate hearing from you.
@@ACriticalDragon Thank you also, I appreciate everything that you and Philip do for the viewers, it means a lot to us. You both are amazing human beings. And funny! Very, very funny!
Lot of thoughts. What stood out to me about Hopper was that Bornhald did it to save Valda, which is the worst trade ever made. Though it does show that Bornhald protects his own, even if they suck.
A good finale for a TV show, lots of finale-appropriate spectacle, but some of the logic falls apart the closer you look at it (and I'm not just taking about nitpicking). It's much better enjoyed from a distance and allowing "the feels" to wash over you. There's a lot of odd choices and inconsistencies when you rewatch or look even a little bit too closely.
Great discussion as always! I really enjoyed this episode - especially Mat's story line. I was trusting the show to bring Mat away from the darkness and I'm glad they did. I hope next season they show the trauma of the decisions that Nynaeve and Egwene made. I was a little disappointed in the end of Ishamael. I know that Rand was not ready to 'battle' him either with the power or the sword. I think they could have had his friends do things to distract him and then Rand stabs him. I wonder if Ishamael is truly ended or will the Dark One bring him back or if he will get turned out again by the wheel.
I think seeing Mat shine was a highlight for most people, we all wanted to see him become 'Mat'. I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion, even though I secretly suspect that you are an ally of Philip's and part of his nefarious schemes. 😁
One thing Brandon Sanderson said on his reaction video is that the show is sacrificing character arc for "good moments", and I absolutely agree with him. While I felt this season 2 was much better than the catastrophic season 1, it's still incredible to me to see that the writers of the show are incapable of writing a satisfying conclusion to a season (we're talking about professional writers here after all). If you think of the main characters, what have they done? Rand? doesn't fight Turak with a sword (because the show hasn't shown us him being trained by the greatest swordsman in the world, okay) but then uses the sword to attack Ishamael?? Do the people know he is the dragon? He didn't do anything, he didn't appear in the sky to the people, Moraine created a huge fire dragon and that's it? Why doesn't it matter that he is the Dragon? The show hasn't made that clear. Mat? Are we seriously going with the staff made with the dagger?? Again, the dagger subplot in the show makes no sense, does it corrupt, does it not? Naeneve apparently doesn't know how to heal anymore, despite her impressive feat in season 1. Her whole plot with Elayne to free Egwene went absolutely nowhere because Egwene simply frees herself, in the most incomprehensible way possible. It felt to me that they were going to go with the plot from the book 8which is great) but then decided that no, Egwene has to be the boss. Perrin? at least he got a magical shield I guess. Though to be fair, the change with the Whitecloaks was interesting. Otherwise, no real development, and his wife/trauma seems to be completely forgotten. Now Egwene, wow, I mean, she frees herself in a way that makes no sense (even with the show's own rules), she STANDS ALONE against Ishmael which is probably the biggest BS of both seasons so far. Stealing Rand's moment from book 3. I get that she is Rafe's favorite character, but c'mon. Moraine and Lan, their storyline is hard to follow, but at least Lan got to fight some randoms that randomly appear on the beach for some reason (I mean seriously, it's as cheesy as it gets). The fact that Moraine is the one declaring Rand to the world (and again, do the people know it's Rand or even know who Rand is?), is just so weird. And of course we have other secondary characters, like Ingtar who had an incredible character arc in book 2, but it went nowhere in the show (literally, pretty much like Agelmar in season 1). Loial is one big question mark in the show, what is his purpose?, he brings no lore to the table, he doesn't serve to open the Waygates because people can just open it with the Power in the show, why is he there? Anyway, probably a lot of rumbling here, English is not my first language and I'm still so disappointed with this show. So far it's still neither a good adaptation, because it has too many thematic differences (the show focuses a lot on individual power, as opposed to the theme of needing your friends to triumph over the enemy, for example), lore/magic system changes, character arcs not respect, nor a good TV Show in general. It's the exact definition of a "mid" show. I hope the series continues this upward direction in quality; the pacing and overall direction was better in this season, but now we really need to have a tighter writing, and character arcs. Visuals and "great moments" aren't enough for a show of this budget, especially if they don't feel earned; we need better writing. I fully agree with Brandon Sanderson on this. And for the love of God, focus on the main character and at least tells us why Rand being the Dragon matters.
It all depends on what you mean by 'a satisfying conclusion'. From a lot of the responses it has become clear that a lot of people found the conclusion very satisfying. Rand taking out Turok and the soldiers might not be what you wanted to see, but that was a strong character moment in which Rand embraced his power. Moiraine creates the Dragon Banner against the sky from prophecy. Perrin picks up the axe, kills Bornhald in a rage, permanently changes his eyes to yellow, but then picks up the shield to protect his friends (the whole dichotomy of his character), Mat uses an ingenious way to get out of the cell and create an iconic weapon (which, by my guess, will result in Fain trying to steal the dagger back) and has a great character moment of realising that he is a hero and good and will be there for his friends. It all depends on how you are looking at it and framing the discussion. The show isn't the books, and as a book reader I will almost always prefer books over the films and tv shows made out of them. I completely understand people being disappointed in not seeing the things that they wanted to see in the show, or that the show isn't doing thing the way that they would prefer, but it is a different medium, for a different audience, and certainly appears to be greatly improved from the issues it had in Season One.
I mean if I went around saying I was the Dragon just because some moistened bint had lobbed a scimitar at me, they’d put me away! - Logain Ablar (probably)
Amazon Prime continue to try to remain relevant in today's fast moving cultural media landscape by producing the Wheel of Time TV Show as if they have any idea of what is going on. Sorry, but it was just meant to be used that way :o)
Really solid dissection and discussion of S2E8 and looking at the setup for S3. I thought season 2 was really well done, the recovery due to the last minute forced re-writes at the end of season 1 (which impacted all the stories of season 2), in getting all our characters (mostly) back on track worked for me. The big plot points from the books were (mostly) included (maybe not how we expected or by whom). But for a multi-time series book reader, that adds some fun to the show in not always knowing how things will happen. The only minor criticism I have is that watching with a non-book reader, she seemed to be confused at parts not very well explained (that I could fill in for myself, with my book knowledge). I do get the feeling, generally, non-book readers enjoyed it more than book-readers. I am excited for season 3.
I am glad that you enjoyed the discussion. Like you, I am looking forward to season three, and I am hopeful that they will continue to improve. Thanks for watching.
I enjoyed this season a more than the first. But I didn’t hate the first season, as I have never read these book believe it or not. I remember when eye of the world first came out, I passed on it because it was a big book, and my understanding was there would be a lot of books. Didn’t want to get sucked into something that the author may not have lived to finish. Anyway, I plan on finally rectifying this, and got a copy of the first book and will get to reading this just as soon as I finish up with another big series I’m currently reading. I guess my biggest quibble with this episode was they probably should have gotten Nynaeve and co started up that tower soon, because it didn’t seem like they could move very fast given the other girl had an injured leg. Definitely enjoying this show more than another fantasy show Amazon is doing
I've made my peace with the show. For some people, a story goes like this: This guy did this thing causing that girl to do that thing and then that other thing happened. I've now learnt that for some other people, the story is really about how the characters feel. So a boy leaving home to go to boarding school and missing his mother can be faithfully adopted to be a man leaving home to take up a job in a distant city and missing his wife, because the story is really about the theme of missing one's family. That is cool stuff. I've concluded that the show is really targeted at those who wanted certain aspects of Jordan's work fixed. You know, those who wished for alternatives where the girl boss didn't need rescuing and just throw in some casual sex and representation. It's not for those who love the coming of age and heroes journey and all that nerdy stuff. Having made peace, may the light shine on show fans and hopefully the audience will be big enough to avoid cancellation.
@@ACriticalDragon I'll always be a fan of you both. We come at things from different POVs but there's little value in listening only to people you agree with 😊
So despite the obvious drag that this series feels obligated to deliver, this season was waaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyy better than the last one. I tuned in to laugh at this show as I had during the fist season, but found myself admiring the obvious step up in production and storytelling. It isn't really great, but it is getting better. Context: I have tried to read the first book in this series around 4 times, in earnest. But everytime I become bored with the style and about a third of the way through, I put it down. Its just not for me.
The disscussions are always great, you do with reviews and critical observarion the thing that the best writers do; you put succinctly into words that thought or feelig I had but have so far failed to express. That is neat trick.@@ACriticalDragon
This just came to me sorry I’m so late with this. How can. The Seanchan make the Aes Sedia use the one power as a weapon. Wouldn’t their oaths prohibit this?
In the books, yes. In the show, we don't see it. But the oaths can be circumvented by belief, so it is possible that if an Aes Sedai damane believed her life was in danger she might be able to use the one power as a weapon... I think. But I could be wrong.
As far as targeting goes. Something that you should notice is that Egwene's scenes really emphasize how much of an Aes Sedai she is. She doesn't use the fireball as a weapon she uses it as a deturen. Yes it's a clear twisting and might actually violate the oath, but it's about subverting what Renna wants while holding to what she is. The same thing happens with the collar. She didn't intend harm when putting the collar on Renna. When she hung the harness up she was hanging it up not Renna. Her thoughts were motivated by her desire to have Renna set her free. Then after she was free she kept her word by enacting Wu Wei.
I did notice the targeting, hence the joke about terrible aim. 😂 I didn't have any issues with Egwene's actions. I thought her motivations were clear, consistent, and reflected her various traumas. The Nemesis on the otherhand, was Dr. Grumpypants about Egwene. But that is because he is a darkfriend. 😂😂 Thanks for all your comments. It has been great hearing from you.
@@ACriticalDragon I also just realized Ishy tells Lanfear that the dark one set him free first. Rand set Ishy free not the dark one. Father of lies indeed.
I like your more balanced take - most book readers on YT are thrashing the show outright. I love the moral grey area of the heroes and villains here. Nynaeve vs Egwene in their treatment of the respective seanchan. For Egwene I would argue that is an element of self-defense. Egwene vs Perrin - killing Renna was Egwene’s intention but the added complexity is that whatever pain inflicted on Renna is felt by Egwene too. In a sense she just wanted to end her pain - both physical and psychological. From your knowledge of the books, would she have continued to torture Renna in revenge if she herself doesn’t suffer? Just from s2, I think her resisting to harm the innocent shows her restraint and morality. Even for her slaver and abuser who treated her as sub-human, I wouldn’t actually say killing Renna was in cold blood. Renna had no tolerance for torture. Killing her is revenge but also a more merciful way than the way she’s treated? (I mean that in fantasy world value judgment of course.) Perrin killing the white cloak was driven by the immediate anger and psychological pain. How do we judge who’s more right among the three, with different types of trauma?
"How do we judge who’s more right among the three, with different types of trauma?" Exactly. That was the point that I loved that the show was portraying. It wasn't simplistic revenge with a sociopathic quip, it was actually trying to grapple with trauma and the repercussions of trauma. There are strong elements of Self-defence in Egwene's case, especially if we take into account the case law developed through domestic abuse cases. I think up until the moment she gains her freedom everyone is on her side, and then because she continues past that point we now have to consider the deeper and broader ethical points. I thought it was a great scene.
@@ACriticalDragon I rewatched the scene. True about your last point. The usual shows would make the killing quick and Egwene being righteous. We would be on her side totally. But the show extended the scene and Egwene saying “we’re the same” - that they are both as human - so they both could feel the same pain and could be as cruel. Egwene let Renna experience exactly what she inflicted. When her physical constraints were removed, Egwene was relieved and the force she had been using to resist had also been unleashed and she directed it at Renna. In the aftermath, other than being drained physically and mentally, I think she was also shaken by her own actions and her darkness. I hope in s3, the psychological ramifications of the actions of the 3.
I have never read Wheel of Time, and I never intend to do so. I thought I would never watch the show as well, but seeing you and Philip review all the episodes excited me, so I watched the first one. It was awful. However, I have no love for the source material, so it was the type of awful that was highly entertaining and unintentionally hilarious. The cheesy fantasy costuming for the Trollocs was great. I was super excited when they came on screen. I may have misheard their name as trollop and only realized my error now when I looked up how to spell it. The whole battle at the village was a mix of terrible CGI, awful fight choreography, and really cheesy costumed monsters running around. It was perfect. The most powerful barrage of magic the big mysterious magic lady could unleash was hurling the stones of an inn's wall at the trollocs! It kept cutting to stone after stone dramatically smashing into these costumed monsters and launching them backwards. I realized I was watching one of the unintentionally lamest things I'd ever seen in my life. I was sold. I'm excited to watch the next episode! I'm praying show can maintain this level of unintentional stupidity, but I will also begrudgingly accept if it manages to turn halfway interesting.
Season Two improved significantly. Season One definitely had issues, especially due to Covid limitations. I hope that you continue to enjoy it on any level.
I think you should do a video with @TheSwordAndThePenREFLECTIONS. She's a freelance book and script editor and she's been making videos about this show. She decided to start reading the books along with the show. She has been uhmmm...a little critical of the show as an adaptation and even just as a TV show in general. I think the two of you could have a fascinating discussion about it.
Great thumbnail!!! All in all great episode and a good season but I have a few concerns...since they skiped a lot and took a different turns I worry that 8 episodes will never be enough compared to 10 or 15. An example is yes they are great friends but I fear that their comradery is gone and their character development is kinda weak even though they have their own arc and thing to do...there is a season 3 and I hope they can finish the series.
I think that the actors are doing a fantastic job in portraying the camaraderie, even without long scenes that focus on it. That is one of the strengths of live action. To be honest, if the adaptation took greater liberties with diverging from the books, and just kept key events, I think that it would be a stronger show. I think that you hit the nail on the head with the compression issue. 8 episodes a season for 8 seasons is a huge amount of compression, especially given the number of main characters who all require screen time and arcs. I have been impressed with how much they have kept given the constraints. Thanks for watching.
I might put some thoughts together on the season as a whole, but Philip may be too busy to join me for a while. He is one of those author types now, not like a pleb like me. 🤣
Nynaeve’s purpose was bringing Elayne to the tower; Nynaeve should have done more but the purpose of letting Elayne do everything was more for giving Elayne a connection with Rand that is meaningful
That aspect of it worked, but I still think that having Nyneave guide the healing weave wouldn't have taken that much screen time, and would have given her a slightly more active role. But ultimately I thought that the finale did all the things that the finale should. Despite my nitpicks, I thought it was a good finale.
I do not think Nynaeve understands the weaves well enough to instruct others on how to do it. I think the fact that she was feeling entirely useless especially with healing, which is 'her thing' is exactly the answer to the question earlier in the season. Why is she at the White Tower? I think she found her reason, she wants to heal and not feel useless next time, so she will have to learn. @@ACriticalDragon
We had that scene earlier in the season in which she watches the Accepted healer, then tried to replicate the weave in the Trials in the Arches. I just thought it would be a nice call back. But your explanation also works really well for a story arc. Thank you.
You guys are awesome but your both right, Lan accepts that they are not equals when it comes time to decide the path that Moraine will take, and Lan says you might kill thousands of innocent people. Then he is right because Lan is the Man Dragon in his prime. A sword master master.
It was a delayed action fireball weave, ie it was still a weave underwater, and only created a fireball after it went up into the ship. Threads of the OP can pass through anything without damage nor be weakened. Except for the case of fire, like Rand can take threads of fire into himself, but women should burn up if they tried the same
Loved the discussion. For me, there are things in the show that simply do not make much sense as presented. How does Ishy’s image use the power to blast Egwene unconscious? Is it supposed to be an image only, but still capable of using his full powers? If so, then why would he ever appear in his real form? Egwene figures out that Rena can use the leash because she channels very weakly into it (not the same as the book explanation, but a simplification for the TV audience). But Nynaeve can’t channel at all. So how does she torture the other suldam? Moraine and Lan have a nice discussion about whether the people on the ship are innocents. Moraine says she doesn’t care - she would kill 1000 innocents to preserve the dragon. But the problem is that the oath rod prevents her from doing just that, and we’ve already been told about the three oaths and that an AES Sedai simply can’t break them. The episode opens with Lews Therin explaining that the material is so strong that even he can’t break it. He’s stronger than Ishy. In season 1 Rand broke it with the extra power at the Eye, all focused through a sa’angreal to magnify the power. But now Ishy seemingly has the ability to break a bunch of them? And he uses his hands? (Aside, with a concern from the book, not the show: With the seals broken, what’s holding the dark one prisoner?) Mat suddenly gets his memories and skills back from his past lives. Where did those guys get their skills from? Is it turtles all the way down. (The book may have this same issue, but it seems much starker without the intervention of the Snakes and Foxes). Another gripe I have is that, with the importance of the Whitecloaks to this finale, I can’t understand why they had simply vanished for the first seven episodes this season. I found there reappearance jarring in the way this was put together. I’m also not sure how I feel about Egwene, Moraine and Perrin all being murderers.
I don't think Moiraine murdered anyone, and Perrin was Manslaughter at best, not murder. Egwene, I think murder is probably apt, but with the extenuating circumstances I can easily see that being reduced in severity. Moiraine targeted the ships that held the people that were targeting the Dragon, enslaving Aes Sedai, and posed an existential threat to the city and the world. It might be sophistry, but that is in line with the book Aes Sedai and how they twist both logic and words to suit their purpose. (plus, let's face it, Jordan bent the oaths more than a few times in the books). The Adam provides a link, so because both parties have access to the Power the link can function. They don't need to be actively channelling in the show for that to work. Nyneave can channel, but she has a block accessing the Power. Moiraine performed a weave on the beach to manifest an effect at another point (the ships) there is no reason that Ishamael couldn't do exactly the same thing. Ishamael dusting his hands off doesn't mean he physically broke them with his hands, it was simply a visual cue that he had broken them. The seals were broken, he could have picked up bits and pieces of them to tidy up for all we know. Plus, we saw how he had figured out how to breach them when he released Lanfear. It doesn't have to be that he brute forced them, he appears to have reverse engineered a key for unlocking them.
@@ACriticalDragon Lan and Moraine have a discussion about whether she would deliberately be killing innocents. She says she doesn’t care. That’s murder. Moreover, the point is that she simply is unable to violate the three oaths. But what she did violated them. Whether Perrin’s killing was manslaughter or murder would depend on the law of the jurisdiction. He picked up the axe, ran in pursuit of the guy he was mad at, and killed him, even though they were Allie’s in this battle. All for the sake of a dog. In most places I know, that would be murder. (And yes, I get that the emotional impact of the scene undercuts that). Your explanation of the Adam is what I understand from the books. I’m less sure if that’s what anyone who hasn’t read the books would think, but I have my doubts. Still, you could be right on this. We see the image actually generate the weaves to pummel Egwene, to bring Rand to his knees, and to signal the ship. They originate from the image. If Ishy could do that, why appear in person? Ever? I think this is just a gap that we’re not supposed to think about (a la every Marvel movie). And yeah, I suppose we just need to accept that Ishy could easily break the unbreakable seals that were beyond the ability of the most powerful and gifted channeler ever. It is possible, and it happened, but I’m not expecting to see anything that will explain it, anymore than we had explanations for Nynaeve’s resurrection, or the apparent lack of fatal effects to Loial for having been stabbed with the dagger. To a certain extent, the show seems content to make its mistakes willfully, and then just ignore them. That said, I liked this season on balance, and enjoyed your discussions with your nemesis.
Moiraine doesn't care... that doesn't equate to murder... negligent homicide or manslaughter would be my best guess. Collateral damage of people actively engaged in enslaving Aes Sedai. Lan suggests a hypothetical, and Moiraine doesn't care, she doesn't entertain the hypothetical because she has already made up her mind it is justified. It doesn't break the oaths, and it has been made clear that almost all the sides in this are using utilitarian logic to justify their actions. Something that Philip and I have discussed repeatedly. There is more in common with all the different sides being portrayed than there was in the books. The fervour and blindness of ideology allowing people to commit grievous acts. Perrin killed Bornhald in a fit of rage in battle. They had been fighting a common enemy, but the Whitecloaks had also tried to kill him, had previously tortured him, and had just killed his friend. Again, there is enough there to avoid simplistically calling it murder. They weren't allies, but yes, he turned on someone that shortly before he would have been fighting alongside. I find that complexity and moral muddying of the characters interesting, and not a demerit of the series.
@@ACriticalDragon I agree that the complexity might make the characters more interesting. With Perrin, he felt enormous guilt over the clearly accidental killing of his wife. That compared favorably to what he did to Bornhold. The oath is not to use the power as a weapon except against shadowspawn, dark friends, or in the last defense of herself, her warder, or another aes Sedai. Her not caring has to do with whether she violated the oaths. She admits that she doesn’t know who is on the ship, but she doesn’t care because she is going to protect Rand. Thus, she doesn’t even believe that she is attacking dark friends or shadowspawn (and there’s scant evidence that she is), and Rand is neither her warder nor an aes Sedai. She broke the oaths, as explained in both the book and the show.
@duffypratt And if Rand loses? So her act is in defense of Aes Sedai if she wants to argue it that way. However, she targets the ships, not people. She doesn't target people, and is doing it to help defeat a Forsaken. Again, I think that there is enough wiggle room for both Jordan's Aes Sedai and the show Aes Sedai to get through. Or how do we explain using weaves of air to whip novices?
Counterpoint on Egwene and Renna: I have not seen a single Black reaction video maker who has objected to or been bothered by Egwene letting Renna die. If anything, many Black fans wanted Egwene to make her suffer more. Maybe a different perspective on what feels like appropriate and justifiable revenge for extreme dehumanizing torture slavery.
I thought that Egwene's actions were perfectly understandable and completely in line with her psychology and situation. But it is clear that this was an act of revenge, not justice. In fact, I think that moral complexity is often overlooked by Fantasy in general, and I am glad that they didn't make light of it, or have her treat it without weight. It is that moral weight that adds power to scene and makes it complex. We, as viewer, agree with Egwene's actions, and yet we also realize that it is murder. It was a great scene.
a tourniquet is the very last thing you want to do because it stops circulation and then your blood will clot in your veins and if you accidentally release the tourniquet even slightly you are going to have a very bad time
I wasn't really interested in Series 2 of this adaptation due to personally disliking some of the changes the showrunners made in the first series. Hearing how some of the characters have been given greater depth in the latest release makes me think I should give it another chance :) Thank you for a great breakdown, gentlemen.
You are very welcome. There is no guarantee that you will enjoy this season more, but I will say that I think that this season has greatly improved on the last season in almost every way.
To punish some one by killing them seems wrong to me. When you're dead, you no longer suffer. If you are alive, you have to live with what you have done, if you are just imprisoned for the rest of your life. A miserable life is worse than death. imho.
Isn’t that self-contradictory if on your scale of wrongness you put killing as most wrong but state that sparing the life would be a better choice because the person suffers more? That logic sounds like killing is the more humane choice?
The power level issue really rubbed me the wrong way at times (Eggy vs Ishy in particular). And some other logic issues here and there. As did Rand not quite getting to shine and show the world/audience why the DR should be feared and respected. That said, overall the episode was really fun and occasionally quite moving. It's definitely not my fav of the season, but there are some very satisfying payoffs (MAT MAT MAT MAT MAT!!!!)
I didn't have a problem with Egwene holding and slowly failing to hold a shield against Ishamael, but the inconsistencies regarding powers and abilities are there in the books too in places. So the narrative contrivance to limit or demonstrate power is something that I think they still haven't found a solid approach to, but they weren't so egregious for me. Then again, I am much harder to please in literature than in a TV show. There were some nice payoffs in the episode though, I completely agree with you there.
@@ACriticalDragon The inconsistencies are definitely there in the books, particularly with Rand. It seems to me like that should have been something the show improved on knowing the big picture, but oh well. Agree to disagree on Eggy v. Ishy. Rubs me the wrong way that Ishamael, one of the strongest channelers ever, doesn't think about, say, channeling at her back, doing more complicated weaves to cut around her, etc. after Lanfear treated Siuan like a ragdoll. He's not just more powerful; he's more experienced and skilled, too. Shoulda been Egwene, Elayne, and Nynaeve working together imo. Would have made it a bit more believable and emphasized the "team up" theme more. Especially since you'd think Nynaeve would get sufficiently pissed enough to channel after seeing Rand in trouble. That said, I also found it difficult to believe that the Seanchan could shield Rand from miles away without seeing him. The channeling was a mixed bag for me. Oh well. Happy overall tho.
I think that is the main thing, that overall it was good. There will always be things that we personally would do differently, or that we have a different perception of, but I think that the overall package of this season was a significant step up from last season, and it hit the rights notes. So I am definitely interested in Season 3.
I have no idea, but when they first announced the show they said 8 seasons of 8 episodes. I would assume that they have rough outlines of what are the major aspects of each season, and then break each season into episodes in the pre-season, and try to balance plot progression, character arcs, actor screen time, and thematic consistency. So they know roughly what will happen in each season, but write specific screenplays for episodes on a season by season basis. That would be my guess.
Structuralism as an approach makes it easier. It can take a lot of time but you map out major narrative events, character arcs, and cross reference them with the new structure you are employing. You can breakdown events into constituent or general elements, and see where there is repetition of the same type of event, or where characters repeat certain actions on a general level, and then ascertain if you can conflate those. So there is a long process when looking at a huge series, and the longer the series, the more complicated it becomes in balancing the narrative events. So it is not just looking at the book and putting the book on screen, it is a chapter by chapter and PoV by PoV breakdown of arcs and events. Ultimately, it takes time and attention.
only an entitled american would say someome who had an judgemental view . In a land were slavery was justified; even though we knew it was wrong and still not able to face it. remember she was broken for months. tell me about how youd let her live. now juxtapose this with the Israeli Palestinian conflict devastating until their end.
Rafe's Jake Al'Thor gets no training, no unaided moments, no glory, and is overshadowed by Egwene once again. Jordan's rules and lore are shattered. This show is the breaking of the wheel of time a darkfiends tale.
