"He's just a guy who likes puzzles, and is kind of an asshole." It's heartening to know that while I don't have the billions of dollars it would take to be Batman, I do meet the qualifications to be the Golden Age Riddler.
I wouldn't exactly call this Golden Age (Thats really about 1940 to 1960, therabouts). Dark Knight Dark City was 2000s, so modern age. Still good quip, chronology notwithstanding.
Or The Dark Knight Rises(which I love….the way you would love a 3rd child who is usually a dick and blames you for it….yeah I probably shouldn’t have kids…or continue putting something in parentheses that’s 47 times longer than the actual statement. I apologize if you read all of this,pretend it was a bad dream)
My favorite Riddler story is actually a rather recent one. It presents itself as a Choose Your Own Adventure...except, *there's no way to win.* Or at least, no way to win following the rules. To "win" you have to break the rules of the game. *Just like Batman would.*
I always liked the idea (mostly from the Arkham games) that the Riddler just wants to prove that he's smarter than Batman (who he sees as the closest to him). And the only reason he ties crime and violence to his riddles is that that's the only way he can force Batman to play. He doesn't inherently want to harm society, he just doesn't care one way or the other about it and will do whatever he must to set up a game and prove his intelligence.
I agree - just like the Joker is the cracked mirror image of Batman's incorruptibility, Riddler is what happens when you take Batman's intellect and remove all the moral guardrails.
I always took Riddler serious as a villain, but maybe thats just due to the stories I read/saw. In Batman Tas he is pretty much as deadly as a kid show will allow for example. Also I agree with you that Batman should be human, not some psychopathtic manchild. I don´t understand why some people see him this way.
@@zemox2534 Yeah Miller took him in some pretty black directions. But Bats was intended to be a little bit more grim than his peers, at least in his first incarnations as a tormented noir detective in a batsuit back in the 1930s. However he is ultimately a "good" person. He isn't grim because he's an asshole, he's just troubled because of his history of being orphaned. This is why I think Nolans Dark Knight series works so well. You see that he's a troubled soul, you also see that he's someone who will pay any price to protect what he loves, and ultimately, its love that pushes him forward. Be it for Gotham City, the memory of his father, Rachel Dawes, or whatever. He cares deeply about others, and THAT is what motivates him.
i dont mind a more manchildish riddler. i quite liked jim carreys portrayal. sure he went too far at times but he was still not like the joker as many seem to think. the riddlers energy is like a kid who thinks he's made an unsolvable puzzle, and anyone who solves it must be cheating. not just that, but carreys riddler always struck me more as a gameshow host. (especially in the final act) which, wouldnt that fit the riddler? i dunno. i feel like there can be a middleground between serial killer obsessed with proving his intellect and manic game show host wanting to make an elaborate death trap.
My favorite "Riddler" was Jeremy Irons in Die Hard with a Vengeance. I think the character is at it's best when he's a Professor Moriarty and his only motivation is to play with the world's greatest detective.
I remember thinking Die Hard with a Vengeance would have made a good Riddler movie. The fact it came out the same year as Batman Forever only made Jim Carrey's over the top performance more disappointing. I always loved that Dark Knight Dark City story. I was only getting into the Batman comics in the early 90s and along with Year One, it was one of the first Batman stories I read and it's still a favourite.
I'm glad The Riddler is getting some love and attention here. For the longest time it was The Joker and Harley Quinn or Harley Quinn and The Joker from DC marketing. Fuck that. Give me some Riddler. From the manic Frank Gorshin in the sixties to the smooth talking and dapper John Glover of TAS in the 90s, he is still one of my favorites. Thanks for making my day today, Steve!
While I don’t mind The Riddler I do think Christopher Nolan missed an opportunity to use Andrew Scott (Moriarty from Sherlock) to play The Riddler, No gimp suit with glasses, have him in muted metallic green Daniel Craig 007 suit, and Hunter green dress shirt
jim carrey wasn't too bad either. i know people think he's too hammy but i kinda view him as more like a demented gameshow host. ESPECIALLY during the climax where he gives batman a sadistic choice. also aaron don't forget the bowler hat.
@@supersmashbro596 BATMAN! This is why only fools are heroes - because you never know when some lunatic will come along with a sadistic choice. Let die the woman you love... or suffer the little Robin. Make your choice, Batman, and see how a hero is rewarded.
@@supersmashbro596 I agree Carrey's riddler wasn't bad and its interesting how he's more focused on bruce wayne than the bataand tries to style himself after bruce.Pluswhile the plan is goofy, the riddler trying to steal information to prove he's smarter does fit with his MO
Just before the New 52 blew everything away, they had a Riddler story where he was seriously leaning toward being a detective himself since he could use his cleverness and intellect (solving a riddle, as it were) but as a "good guy" the girl that was involved liked him for what he did and since he didn't commit a crime, the police and Batman (which was at that moment, Dick Grayson) were not after him ...and it felt pretty good to him. I kind of liked the idea myself.
Knew from the video title that the subject could only be _Dark Knight, Dark City._ One of the best Batman stories ever written. To be noted that the comic's "ritualistic killer manipulating the hero through a series of horrific murder scenarios" plot came out a year before _Se7en._ The Riddler is just like The Joker - but with patience.
Been saying this ever since I saw what the Batman was doing with Riddler. I saw a lot of Dark Knight Dark City in this idea and in the film, along with this Earth One portrayal
While I did not follow the comics, the Riddler has always been my favorite Batman villain, but have usually had to roll my eyes at his on-screen depiction. I really liked how he was portrayed in the Batman Arkham video games, where they drove home his pathological need to prove he's the most clever man alive, and that the only way he could prove it was to outwit the Great Detective, and any lives lost were just a byproduct of the fact that the only way he could make sure that Batman took his challenges seriously was to endanger others. There never seemed to be malice in his actions, just a true mania leading to an inevitable outcome. Of all the villains, he felt the most.. real. Through the twisted logic of a madman, his motivations were believable.
So in a universe where characters frequently travel between worlds, and universes, where incredibly fast people can flit between realities and time travel, super powered aliens can shape shift, fly, lift incredibly heavy objects, shoot fire from their eyes, where there is a 6000 yr old Amazon warrior with a magic rope and bracelets, also a half man half sea dweller who talks to fish, you find it incredulous that Batman so easily accepts the existence of zombies? I mean there is literally a re animated ex mobster walking around, a character literally called Deadman possessing bodies, not to mention a slain ex cop with reality changing abilities too. Zombies by this point would seem par for the course
I think the zombies being par for the course was the point of that bit. Like in these dark and gritty stories there's still traces of classic goofy woowoo shit. Less questioning Batman's reaction, more pointing out the contrast.
Let alone Red Hood, who is not quite a zombie but is a dead dude who came back to life but was left somewhat zombified before he got tossed into the Lazarus Pit.
I read this story when it was published, and it was among my favorites from that time period. One of the things that stood out to me then was how gleeful the Riddler was over the "get Batman to slit a babies throat" part of the plan, which had to be the most difficult thing for him to conceptualize.
One of my favorite Batman scenes is from the final episode of Justice League Unlimited (a series that I believe takes everything that is best about the DC Universe and distills it into its ultimate form.) When the then-current Ace of the Royal Flush Gang, who is a teenaged girl with immense, reality warping psychic powers given to her through years of secret Cadmus experiments that robbed her of her childhood, experiments that have lead to her developing a brain aneurysm which will soon kill her and most likely unleash a psychic shockwave when she dies that will destroy the city around them and kill everyone in it. Batman is told that the only way to stop Ace from destroying the city is to use a device that will kill her, and he alone can get close enough to her to use it because she only knows hm. Batman walks to Ace through the playground where she was hiding, and she allows him to get close to her. Because she can read his mind and knows that he never intended to use the device and kill her. She also knows she is about to die, and is sad and lonely and terrified because she is really just a young girl who has had terrible things done to her that ultimately stole away her life from her. Batman sits beside her on a swingset, holding her hand as she dies so that she would not go alone. At the end the Batman walks out of the playground with tears in his eyes, carrying Ace's lifeless body in his arms. That is the best Batman.
Always a shame people tend to forget about the Telltale series' Riddler. (People tend to forget this series in general, unfortunately.) He was only present for an episode but the impact he left was unforgettable, in a game with probably the most memorable adaptation of various other characters. He's made out to be very menacing and a genuine threat, turning out to be an already established villain of the city before even Batman's time, ready to come out of retirement and cause ruin in Gotham, The Agency, and even Bruce himself. And the lengths he's willing to go just to prove himself are terrifying while still feeling akin to his classic self. He's such an amazing version of a more serious Riddler, while not straying too far from what makes the Riddler himself. It's really a version of him that deserves more love and exposure.
I always thought it was weird when they make Batman kill animals. He does his best not to kill humans, and he seems like a compassionate guy at heart. I know it’s only when his life is in danger, but he sure doesn’t do that with the serial killers he faces who will surely strike again
Im surprised theres no mention of Riddler from Zero Year? That’s probably the most deadly & maniacal version of the character from comics? It uses his riddle obsession and superiority complex to effectively take over Gotham. Also it seems like the film is pulling some elements directly from that alt origin story.
I agree with both of you. Zero year riddler was a serious deal and did pretty much win for a time and I LOVED the portrayal of Riddler in War of Jokes and Riddles. great storyline anyway, both of them, although war of jokes and riddles felt somewhat ruined by some later issues....
I used to have this comic. I was surprised by how dark it was. Riddler being almost Jokeresque was unique to me and after seeing Batman Forever around that time, almost pleasant to me. I like a darker Riddler.
@@friday6448 Gorshin played the Riddler as totally bipolar, swinging wildly from zany and madcap to to sullen and possibly violent, and didn't need to talk to himself to do it.
I'm 22 and I remember using a lot of cassette tapes. Those were fun. I miss them. Don't miss rewinding the tape into it when it inevitably gets pulled out.
The Riddler is my favorite Batman villain, despite being written off as a gimmicky oaf a lot of the time, because his best stories always bring out the mystery element of Batman more than any other of his rogues, and that's why i LOVE his new outlook in the new film. Even though I was skeptical of his appearance (and still sort of miss the suit, cane and bowler hat), Matt Reeves and Paul Dano did an astounding job at recementing the Riddler has more than just a pushover c-list batman villain.
I honestly like this story, it was after the time of Eddie's massive loser villain status and this story establishes Riddler can be dangerous and sadistic, the sudden change of Eddie due to being possessed by a demon is kind of cheesy but it's almost like a redemption story for the Riddler of being a threat so props for that personally.
@@charlieharrington9555 I think he answered the way it can actually be serious (though I guess that's more on the writer): SPOILEEEEERS - Present the riddles not as a self-hindering challenge, but as coded instructions for the guy he thought was his accomplice, based solely on the assumption that smart people would automatically be his friends. The fact he has a mental breakdown when that bubble shatters, yet instantly reappears when he learns that Batman couldn't solve the last riddle, is a perfect understanding of the character. "Of course, that explains it, he's just another idiot after all, that's why he doesn't agree with me", those were not his words but you could tell that's exactly how his mind operates after that interaction.
I wish they'd kept the Riddler's characterization to that of Neil Gaiman's in the 1989 SECRET ORIGINS Batman special. He was completely bonkos in that one.
I like The Batman's version of the Riddler, but my favorite version, will always be the Arkham games version. You don't see him in most of the games and he doesn't do much either out site if putting the collectibles, but his characterization is phenomenal, his voice is very scary and his costume is the best there is.
This is THE most well informed, intelligent, thought-provoking and HILARIOUS video I've ever had the absolute pleasure of watching. And I'm all the way ashamed I'm only just now finding your channel. Nygma's a personal fave of mine, the Loeb\Lee Hush Collab and Snyder & Capullo's Zero Year just reinforced how I felt about the guy. Ok, that's it. I'm gonna finish binging some more of your vids. Awesome content bro!👏🏾🤘🏾👍🏾
I'd be interested in getting your opinion of the Gotham show. Specifically the Riddler and Penguin from that series. Both as individual characters and their relationship.
Yesss. That show is what got me to like Penguin, a character I'd never found particularly interesting. I've always liked the Riddler, so I was stoked when they brought him into the story
Honestly Gothams portrayal of Penguins love for riddler feels really genuine. Its oddly one of my favorite relationships ever put to tv, and I would of never in a million years thought the two could go good together
It's not surprising that Batman isn't too surprised by the possible existence of zombies since he lives in a world where he knows magic exists. He has, after all, met many magic users such as Zatanna and Dr Fate as well as ghosts such as The Spectre and Deadman, plus the whole story involves a demon.
This story arch reminds me of some of Gardner Fox’s work. He had a legitimate grasp of genuine magical practices. This would sometimes find its way into his comics.
I feel that Frank Gorshin's brilliant Riddler remains so underrated and underappreciated. He took a second-rate character and not only made him THE arch-foe, but he stole every scene.
Just discovered your channel today, and going through the entire playlist and it's great to see you pointing out different eras of Batman and different genres, I really hope you do get to the audio books and audio dramas. Because hands down for me and that genre it's Richard Rowan, he played Batman during the entire time graphic audio had the license to produce and adapt stories, he has a great gravitas to him and once you realize the narrator and Batman are the same voice actor you'll be blown away about this man's range. IMO he's right behind Kevin Conroy for best audio Batman performances.
This is one of the stories that leads into Dark Knights metal which is kinda cool. The spirit of Gotham is revealed to be the hyper adapter in final crisis and then as barbatos in dark knights
Just gotta say all your content...in which i say you know about EVERYTHING lol is always high quality and interesting..you always bring a really cool positive energy to your channel and RU-vid...I esp enjoy your Star Trek discussions...tbh I would listen to you talk about bathrooms on the Enterprise for hours lol..thanks for all the work you put into your videos..
12:30 As a lifeguard I like how Batman did the abdominal thrusts like how it should be properly performed (or in this case pats as we had to use those on the baby mannequins during cpr training). It’s little real things like that I like.
The TellTale Batman game duology had a pretty hardcore Riddler -- in his case, Gotham's original supervillain before Batman Began..s, now back from retirement. The Riddler in the Arkhamverse is goofy but also deadly, especially in Arkham City where he tortures captives potentially to death if Batman can't save them.
See, I've always said it, Gotham's issues are more than poverty, drugs, gun running, and corruption. You do NOT get this many cannibals coming out of a place and it not be something specific. "A demon is manipulating people." Face it, that makes sense. It was that or a lovecraftian hell beast. The Court Of Owls only explains so much....
I was always under the impression that Riddler was less goofy and than the Jim Carrey take on the character. Although I haven't read the early batman books, I often felt like the classic goofiness in regards to the came from a combination of a) the way Batman would make the insane logical leaps required for the riddles and B) the puns or silliness that was worked into the riddles. Since Batman is supposed to be the World's Greatest Detective, a serious Riddler should be able to easily fit into batman stories. He simply has to be more like Moriarty. Dropping riddles due to a need to engage with the great detective. Seeking maybe to thread a needle between getting away with a crime because he is smarter than everyone else and giving too many clues and getting caught.
there are a FEW problems with this story: It focuses too much on making the riddler 'deadlier' and 'darker' while...forgetting about all the qualities that make Riddler unique. You can have Riddler kill people, but don't have it be part of some occult nonsense. Remember, in the early years Riddler made DEATH TRAPS, the riddles were part of a puzzle needed to stop someone from dying. Where's the PUZZLE in making zombies, or making babies choke on golfballs? Sure the Riddler's goofy, but THIS isn't the way to make him more of a 'badass villain'. It's TRYHARD, and even worse you could substitute riddler for ANY villain. So, in that regard...this is a terrible Riddler story, because there's little 'Riddler' about it. There's also the stuff with the demon, making it the mastermind villain of the story driving Riddler to these actions. It once more empahises how much this isn't a riddler story.
The curse of the '90's comicbook that has plagued the industry up tomorrow today & won't ever go away: "Let's not focus on making good, fun, entertaining stories with compelling characters & page-turning plots, let's just throw in as much violence, gore, darkness, edginess, aliens, & ridiculous supernatural crap as we possibly can just because we _can,_ & the kids, teens, & adults who read them will think they're super cool bad@$$ rebels for reading them & will buy more of them & declare them as the greatest comicbooks of all time." Comicbooks used to be silly, fun, entertaining things for all ages that anyone could pick & read & have a good time with, but now there's segregated comics with segregated tones. There's not just one Batman for everyone anymore, there's a Batman for kids, a Batman for teens, a Batman for young adults, a Batman for older adults, & the older the demographic gets, the darker, edgier, & dumber they become. (P.S., I spelled comicbook that way 'cuz that's how Stan Lee wished it was spelled.)
@@elwoodjacobs4353 I don’t think that this is necessarily a 90s problem. Peter Milligan just really liked the Occult and it featured heavily in his run. None of the other Riddler stories in the 90s were as dark as this.
It's funny how common the "jerk decides to become supervillain" thing is in Spider-Man's rogues gallery. Sandman was a bank robber who got sand powers and decided "Hey, I can rob even MORE banks now." Electro was a lineman who got/discovered he had electrical powers and decided he'd sink all his money into buying an abandoned power plant, so he could charge himself up with electricity and rob banks. Vulture invented a flying suit and decided "Hey, I could rob banks with this." Even Peter Parker's first thought when he got super powers was that he could make money with it, albeit legally.
If Dominique was also prepared for the ritual, didn’t she also do all those things Batman was tricked into, presumably without the good intentions and self defense?
I would love to see an animated version of the Riddler that goes through that phase where he became a detective. That seems like such a fun development for the character, to have him use his neurosis for something good. Almost like Sherlock Holmes.
I think the best type of riddler is the one in the Arkham games, who makes robots and will take people hostage but never actually have the balls to kill them, only wanting to one day outsmart the bat… and waste his time with riddler trophies.
Good video, Steve. I also read Batman in this era, and also liked this story. Kudos for Gorshin, and a killer Ghostbusters reference! Speaking of Riddler… thoughts on Long Halloween? Slainte!
The Riddler has always been one of my favorite villains of the Batman lore. I am a sucker for those brainy but otherwise completely defensively kind of villain types. They always get their comeuppance at the end. But from time to time, they orchestrate some hugely messed up plot or heist. As a kid, for me it was all the goofy riddles. But as an adult, I really appreciated this weird dynamic where the Riddler seemed to hate batman the same that a traumatized school age nerd grows up with the same ill will towards those who were jocks or otherwise not defenseless. I always thought it'd be great to see a storyline where Riddler stoops to Batman's level and in some way shape or form outdoes Batman in hand to hand combat. It was done with the Clock King on the batman animated series. The clock king studied tons of batman footage or something and timed his punches and learned how long it takes batman to throw a punch or kick. Then he used that information to literally beat batman up lmao. I found it cool as hell.
I know that you're more of a batman guy but I hope one day you do stuff like this for superman. Or if anyone in the comments knows someone who, as part of their channel, goes through old and weird Superman stories in a similarly thoughtful way
There's a great comic called The Riddle Factory that does a much better job of this. Reeks of "Batman Forever tie-in," but in a charming way. Depicts Riddler as a creepy laughing hyena, like Ed from Lion King. Barely in control of himself, much less his obsession/illness.
I feel like the Riddler in the Arkham games is a reasonable middle-ground. He's still obsessed with riddles, attention, and proving himself smarter than everyone else, but he also takes hostages and kills people to achieve his obsessions. I agree that the Riddler's usual question mark unitard is a bit too silly for a serious take, but while I did like the new film's take on the Riddler, I feel like a dark green suit and a green bowler hat, would be sufficiently serious while still not departing from the character all the way into Zodiac killer territory.
Most people who've played the game (including myself) agree that he's an amazing version of the Riddler that leaves quite a heavy impact as a more menacing version, while still feeling like the classic character, despite his short screentime. I also feel like his voice acting really elevates him even further.
