When is a Translation Not a Translation? Poems of the Earliest Buddhist Women

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A book purporting to translate poetry of the first Buddhist women was released last year to great fanfare. More recently discussion has arisen as to whether what the book presents is actually a translation, and whether instead it erases the voices of these women.
Thanks to the work of Ayya Sudhamma, Bhikkhu Sujato, and Bhikkhu Akāliko among others for their work on this matter. This video has relied upon them. Key material linked below.
UPDATE: Shambhala has just released a statement indicating that they intend to "reissue" the book: www.shambhala.com/ffw-response
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✅ Bhante Sujato video: When Is a Sutta not a Sutta? Facts & Fantasies in translations of the Therīgāthā - • When is a Sutta not a ...
✅ Earlier related video of mine:
Women in Buddhism -- • Women in Buddhism
✅ Bhante Akāliko’s piece: lokanta.github.io/2021/01/21/...
✅ Threads on SuttaCentral: discourse.suttacentral.net/t/...
discourse.suttacentral.net/t/...
✅ Bodhipaksa's posts:
fakebuddhaquotes.com/a-buddhi...
fakebuddhaquotes.com/translat...
fakebuddhaquotes.com/the-firs...
Open letter to the publisher: fakebuddhaquotes.com/an-open-...
✅ Suttas mentioned:
suttacentral.net/thig4.1/en/s...
suttacentral.net/iti56/en/ire... (on the taints)
✅ Books mentioned:
Matty Weingast, The First Free Women: Poems of the Early Buddhist Nuns (Shambhala, 2020). amzn.to/2NBJY1S
Charles Hallisey (trans.), Therigatha: Poems of the First Buddhist Women (Harvard, 2015). amzn.to/3sOlD95
Bodhipaksa, I Can't Believe It's Not Buddha! (Parallax, 2018) amzn.to/3tfUbkT
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Опубликовано:

31 янв 2021

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Комментарии : 71

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

✅ Check out this video next, on whether we need to know Pāli, and the Buddha's views on language: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-0JEhzFfk-gg.html 🧡 If you find benefit in my videos, consider joining us on Patreon and get fun extras like exclusive behind-the-scenes videos, audio-only versions, and extensive show notes: www.patreon.com/dougsseculardharma 🙂

@Susan-mq4en 3 года назад

I was one of those who purchased the book shortly after it came out. I enjoyed reading it, but on a spirtual/emotional level what moved me was the idea that i was listening to the voices of ancient women. I was reading what they wrote down 2500 years ago. I knew the work i was reading was clearly for a modern audience but it still was supposed to be the echo of those ancient voices. I was horrified and disgusted to learn that i was actually reading the fanfiction of a 21st century man. Thats what it was. A man who daydreamed poems about 73 women and wrote them down and thought "this is as good as anything a woman could write. I think my fictional heroines even deserve to have the weight of history behind them." And thus the collection of poems was born. I do not know this man, or what he was thinking. I do not wish to insult anyone who works to create anything, whether book, art, or so on. But this is an egregious example of a person who lied to and tricked countless people into reading his fanfiction.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes it's an unfortunate situation. Thanks Susan.

@MimouFirst 3 года назад

I love Hallisey's translation. It is truthful to the original work, but also give a bit more context so people without much background knowledge can understand better. I looked him up and next month a new print of his translations of these poems comes out. I've put it on my wish list. Weingast's 'translation' is shockingly bad. As a woman I feel it completely thumbs down the beauty and power of the poem and I don't get any inspiration out of it this way. This woman is secure in herself and how she walks on the pad. It's powerful to read that from a woman who lived so long ago.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes, I like Hallisey's as well. There are also free translations on the web that are good, such as over at Sutta Central.

@noiselesspatient 3 года назад

Thank you. I was much moved by these. The connection to the rich tradition of Zen enlightenment poetry is remarkable. I hope these become more widely known, and in translations which continue to respect the experiences and language of these remarkable women 🙏🏻

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

That's right Shikantaza, you're very welcome! 🙏

@babeksaber2702 2 года назад

Great stuff. Well done friend

@DougsDharma 2 года назад

Thanks so much, Babek. 🙏

@FearlessWisdom 3 года назад

Thank you for spreading the word dude!!!

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Happy to do so Javier! 🙏

@sleepy314 3 года назад

Thank you for the perspective.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

My pleasure sleepy.

@value8035 3 года назад

Anichcha. Dharma is also subjected to change and decay. Even in the modern age with all the written texts in multiple languages, multiple translations, this is happening. Imagine when there were only word-of-mouth tradition of the Dharma. It is really a rare chance even this much of Buddhism have survived up to date. Thank you very much for your work to make it popularized and properly preserved to the future as well.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

You're very welcome Value. 🙏

@stefana4113 3 года назад

Great video!

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Glad you enjoyed it Stefan, thanks for the comment!

@kseniav586 3 года назад

I think you've done a much better job bring these poems to a modern reader than this guy. He seems to be very arrogant, thinking he has the right to publish his own verse as translations. The two actual translations you read are so much more eloquent and deep. What he came up with..."Marriage is hard". You don't say?! What a special insight. I would say Bhadhha Kapiliani would be rolling in her grave, but I guess enlightened bhikkunis don't do that... Anyway, thanks for another video on Pali texts. They are often hard to understand and your lectures are great help.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

You're very welcome Ksenia! 🙏

@atiger4716 3 года назад

Thanks for your work. It is important in order to understand it well to go to the more pure knowledge.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes I think so too, you're very welcome Tiger.

@westsidesmitty1 3 года назад

Just as with choosing a teacher, choosing a translator is a huge leap of faith! One has to be ''burned'' a few times to really grasp the enormity of it (or actually master another language, but I have never managed that!) To use the crass, money metaphors of Western man, ''caveat emptor''. As ''Life is short, while art is long'', there is no choice (currently) but to chose one's objects of devotion very carefully, invest in many translations, and keep abreast of the scandals! Thanks for the alert on this one. ''Marriage is hard''. Hmm. That CAN'T even possibly do justice to POETRY that has survived millennia. Really appreciated your series on the Anapanasati Sutta, and, for me, it is a case in point. I will never be able to memorize the Satipatthana Sutta, (nor ''sit with legs crossed and spine erect'' long enough to use it in practice!). Furthermore, the former Sutta just plain speaks to me (the Venerable Thich Nhat Hanh has remarked much the same). So I have a half dozen widely acclaimed, modern translations (plus commentaries). I reread them, memorize them, and use them in my practice. Over time, (and given my imperfect memory and very active unconsciousness while meditating), my own personalized translation emerges- how philologically sound, I do not know! It does change as I stagger down ''the path''! It is fortunate for all your students that this issue has come up so that folks may be aware of the problematic nature of all translations and the worthiness of all efforts (no matter how humble and lacking in diacritics) to learn and use the Pali. It turns out, that entering into another language is about as ''mind expanding'' an experience as can be had. It is FAR more than just ''more words'', but actually a ''world of discourse''. We in the US can never be reminded of this enough (we who are so ''exceptional'' that we cannot even accept the Metric system). I have lived in other climes where the pointed joke ran that one who had many languages was polyglot. One who spoke two languages was bilingual. Bothering to learn only one, was 'Murcan. Metta (albeit a bit ''brittle'' on this point!) ; )

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Thanks Smitty! Yes when we read a translation we're taking a lot on trust. Fortunately nowadays there are several very good translators who are active, and several good translations that can be compared so those of us who aren't experts can at least hope to "triangulate" on a good understanding of these texts.

@R.revenger_prince Месяц назад

Sir i also read Bhudhist story of sudhina in this lord budha said that it is good to put your man hood in veneous snake rather than on women.

@photistyx 3 года назад

Thanks, Doug. For me, it is of interest that, apparently, various people in roles of expertise originally endorsed the purported translations without commenting on the lack of fidelity. It suggests that people in roles of expertise within the western Buddhist community are in the habit of endorsing what other people, who are likewise in roles of expertise, say, based not on the genuinely evaluated content of the endorsed material, but rather the status of the author. That is, of course, not special to Buddhism, but it is worth remembering when considering any endorsement or lack thereof.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

It's quite possible photistyx. It's also possible they read and enjoyed at least some of the poems and either weren't aware they weren't accurate translations, or didn't reflect deeply enough on the more "scholarly" issue of what a translation has to provide. I really don't know.

@photistyx 3 года назад

Indeed, that is likely the case. I imagine that the endorsements were genuinely felt. But I would guess that if the "translator" had been an unknown amateur putting out their first book ever, we would not have seen any glowing endorsements from people in the know. This is not a reflection on any personal failing on the part of reviewers but just the way things generally work out, in part because we trust trusted people.

@value8035 3 года назад

Dear Doug, Do you have a video about Thrivijja - the Triple knowledge? Is it essential for the Nirvana, or not? As of my understanding, it is gained through the Samatha Meditation, similarly to the Hindu Vedas' tradition. Knowing about the first two, (seeing own past lives, seeing other peoples' birth-death cycle) can be vastly helpful to understand the real Samsara, and therefore attain nibbana, is there a case where someone can attain nibbana directly without having ability to have those special knowledges? Can a person who does a pure Vidarshana meditation (Shushka Vidarshaka) without these 'super-powers' can attain Nibbana? What does your research says on this? Thank you!.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

I think the only part that is really important is the knowledge of the destruction of the taints. It appears that even Sāriputta either didn't attain the other ones or didn't care about them. (Thag 996-7).

@sharanagato 3 года назад

This is really disappointing news. Now I have to think twice while reading a translation 😑

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes unfortunately it is pretty disappointing. We will have to see how it develops.

@JamesSmith-kt3bi 3 года назад

Thanks, Doug for laying out the issues. These pre-modern poems are such a source of inspiration in themselves for the contemporary Dharma practitioner both in terms of linage and insight into deep devotion. It is a shame this rendition loses itself in post-modernist relativism, which quite clearly dislocates the connection of the spirit of the original by attempting to make them "relevant" to the contemporary. Here is the access to insight free copy www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/thig/index.html With thanks again, go well in the Dharma.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes there is also Bhante Sujato's translation available here: suttacentral.net/thig

@NimaBlaydz 3 года назад

14:26 *jaw drops*

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes it's pretty surprising really!

@blackhunk2265 3 года назад

Can you please discuss about architecture during Buddha time and Buddhist architecture in general. What design of vihara and pagoda that budddha used? And how Buddhist architecture is different from architecture from others?

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

This is an interesting question I Bhardwaj, I don't know enough about it!

@dant5349 3 года назад

I would be interested in a full video on the Bhikkuni controversy

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

It's a good idea Dan, will take a bit of research to get it right, but I'll put it on the list.

@dant5349 3 года назад

@@DougsDharma Wow, didn't expect you to respond! Thanks. It's very good that you listen to your viewers :)

@greenobeeno1 3 года назад

I was part of the call with the author on this book. He was to me, disrespectful and dismissive of any issues raised.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

I heard about that. It sounds very sad.

@danman202 3 года назад

To call his work a translation is about as accurate as calling the book of Mormon a translation of The Bible. Seams more like he is just another lost soul trying to capitalize on the current popularity and interest in Buddhism and Fourth-wave feminism. May it quickly fall out of print and be forgotten.... Thanks for another great upload.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

You're very welcome Daniel. So far as I know, Weingast has a long history in the Insight movement so I don't think he's someone just hopping aboard on a whim. That said, it's a real conundrum what was going on.

@robr2303 3 года назад

Why did they endorse the book if they didn't know anything about it. Sad!

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Good question, I'm really not sure. Note that they will be releasing an updated version of the book soon ... we'll see.

@danegraeme991 3 года назад

This translation seems even less accurate than Stephen Mitchell's "translation" of the Daode Jing, which is absolutely horrifying.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Ha! I'm not familiar with that one, but from what I've heard the Daode Jing is horribly difficult to translate even by the best of scholars. (I'd like to find a good translation of it someday myself!)

@brian-beeler 3 года назад

_"...Stephen Mitchell's 'translation' of the Daode Jing, ...is absolutely horrifying." Completely agree. Mitchell gave us an *interpretation* not a translation. Interpretations are needed and welcome [when sold as interpretations] but the forward matter of his book clearly states that it was a translation which it clearly isn't. His "translation" was the first I'd ever read that swapped out masculine pronouns for feminine ones. SMH.

@brian-beeler 3 года назад

@@DougsDharma _"I'd like to find a good translation of it someday myself"_ I prefer the translation done by Gia-Fu Feng and Jane English published in 1972. terebess.hu/english/tao/gia.html . Hits me as a good balance between honoring the original text yet makes that text readable and meaningful for today's reader. Or maybe I'm just getting lazy in my old age. =) There's always "Tao Te Ching: The Canon of Virtue and Reason" (1913) by D.T. Suzuki. While Suzuki was a giant in this kind of work after a century it's a bit stilted for today's reader. Like everything else Suzuki wrote it's worth reading.

@danegraeme991 3 года назад

@@DougsDharma Stephen Mitchell just looked at other translations and tried to piece together what he thought Laozi was trying to convey. Thus he interprets what is clearly supposed to be translated as "Heaven and Earth are not benevolent/humane, they regard the Ten Thousand Things as straw dogs" as meaning "The Tao doesn't choose sides, it gives birth to both good and evil." His book is riddled with such errors. My favorite translation is Derek Lin's. He's a native speaker of both English and Chinese and did extremely thorough research on how Old Chinese works. As far as I am aware, his translation is the most faithful to the original text.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

@@danegraeme991 Thanks for the rec!

@HardcoreZen 3 года назад

Nice video. Too many commercials!

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Thanks HZ. Ad placement is up to RU-vid ... not sure how they figure these things.

@HardcoreZen 3 года назад

@@DougsDharma You can turn off ads completely. I always do. You don't get paid any ad revenue unless you get a huge number of views (way more than I ever do). I didn't want to keep giving free ad space to these companies, so I switched it off completely.

@SaintNektarios 3 года назад

I prefer Charles Hallisey's poem.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes it certainly is a bit more approachable.

@chhandasarkar8094 3 года назад

Have you considered about adulteration here? How it is possible to even think Brahmin during the Buddhist era. I strongly believe that this part was post Budhhist literature when the original texts were destroyed mercilessly. This theory I wouldn't take as authentic Buddhist text.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

The Buddha had many discussions with the Brahmins of his day Chhanda, and one of his tactics was to use their terminology, but to turn it to his own dharma. So instead of "Brahmin" meaning someone of a certain birth, he used it to mean someone who was ethically pure and enlightened. This was he said the "true" Brahmin.

@andrewlogan9104 Год назад

To be fair to Matty he does say in the introduction that his book requires no prior knowledge of Buddhism or meditation so it would be difficult to include the concepts which Doug so skilfully unpacks. The poem that Doug details here is not one of the best in the book. I find Matty's book very inspiring although it cannot be classified as a translation.

@DougsDharma Год назад

Right yes, many people do find the poems in the book inspiring.

@GaryDean 3 года назад

anybody who has tried to translate poems from one language to another knows the pain.

@DougsDharma 3 года назад

Yes translation of any kind isn't easy, poetry is another matter entirely.

@spookybuk 3 года назад

The three knowledges that “release from birth and death” are clearly “the void”, “the forms” and “the non-duality between void and forms”; also knows as the Three Truths of Buddhism. Tendai school calls it “Triple Understanding of the One Mind”. Modern philosophers call it the “3 stages of the Logic of Non-duality”, with the third stage, or “triple understanding” being referred to as “trans-descendence”. It has nothing to do with memorized knowledge. Second translation is very bad. It says “there are three things - heart, wings and halo - that most don’t have”, but most people have a nose. If you think the second translation “makes it easier for us to understand”, you have never dreamed with the meaning of the Buddha Dharma. This “teacher” is a secular “explainer”, acting the good-boy and doing everything else the ancient masters warned us against. Using cases and texts from others to channel your own voice is what zen masters do - that covers most of zen literature. Despite that, Weingast’s translation is clearly a set of personal commentaries on the text and not its translation. The sangha is certainly a joke right now. Most translations are done by people substituting words according to rules, while not even dreaming with the meaning of the texts. Most of them don’t really mean anything. They are “sacred texts”, in the context of Bodhidharma’s “Vast emptiness; no sacred” definition of zen. This is not real Buddhism. I couldn’t find one true master on RU-vid, clearing away confusion. There are only greedy sellers, vain models or soft-spoken academics.