When NOT to Get a Building Permit 

We contract in Southern California.. We pull permits for everything to avoid litigation. However like you, we have been in 2 legal actions against us. And just like you, both were permitted and shown to be proper. In both cases they were dismissed. I have been in the trades since 1980 and have contracted since 1992.

As soon as people will see an oportunity in their favor, they will try to grab it. It may be clients, but sadly it may sometimes be the contractors as well. But there seems to be a good rule of thumb to try sort those out. (Sadly it does not work universally to 100 %). Work done the proper way by a honest contractor is something that may take a little more time, effort, qualification etc. to ensure it is done properly, which comes at a cost. If the price is too good to be true, well, you may get what you pay for and it may lack what you saved. Of course at both ends, there may be a young guy just starting his business trying to build a customer base with lower prices, while being honest and doing all in his capability to get it done right (And I think there is no shame for anyone to decline certain jobs or parts of jobs because of a lack of expertise, instead of delivering inproper execution), while at the other end, a big contractor asking quite high prices might scam you as well and cut corners wherever possible. But they seem to forget, it never pays to damage your reputation.

Imagine how nice it would be if there was a market of independent, non-governmental inspections, that weren't as subject to the corruption and laziness inevitable in systems backed up with force.

"When you're playing by the rules, it's harder for dishonest clients to take advantage of you." words I will keep in my pocket.

@@dustinabc LOL what. You know what happens when you let that happen? You get doors flying off of planes mid flight and landing gear falling off after takeoff because regulations, and therefore inspections, have become lax all in the name of maximum profits. The "market" only cares about maximum profit with minimal overhead and oversight. Get real.

Well of course, he's getting paid the same tax dollars either way. Might as well enjoy the day :P

It would be interesting to know where that happened. In my city, the building inspectors are so busy, it's unbelievable how fast they go through inspections. But the city has doubled in population this century, and they have a lot to inspect.

I poured a 40 x 40 ft concrete pad with re bar reinforcements and through foundation plumbing reliefs, nobody inspected it except me, my sons and the concrete guy that was helping us. 3 years later it is still flat, not falling apart and doing is job

Inspections for Right of Way work are a whole different ballgame. Thats city property and the city engineer will want it done per their standards and specifications. Its their ass on he line if it doesn’t get done right. You also run into ADA. Imagine a homeowner repaves a crooked and sloped sidewalk along a major street. Pedestrian trips or falls, ends up on CNN, then you’re looking at a 6 figure lawsuit against the homeowner for “taking responsibility” but not actually following legally mandated specifications. There goes your house and life savings.

The contractor i worked for, never skipped a beat from commercial to residential in 2009. We worked for the richest people in our city. Names recognized world wide. They didnt want a property tax increase, we never pulled permits. The city inspectors never flagged us. They dont mess with their tax base.

It is also impossible to sue a city official.

Both of these vary by locality

Hell, I've even seen where inspections were signed off as done and work was "to code" that upon moving in I had to tear up my basement floor because the roughed in plumbing was found to not be to code. So I've come to believe, that permit's are just a way for the gov't to know what you're doing and when to raise your taxes. It is wrong to paint all systems with 1brush, but if items are found to be code then two weeks later found to be not compliant after inspection then the inspection was worthless meaning the cost of the permit worthless. It's better to A) find out where and to what standards permit inspections are supposed to be done to, and then B) make damn sure you read items have some sort of understanding and C) hire someone reputable ask ??'s get the contract to spell out details.

Almost as if there's absolutely no reason we should have to get a building permit from them. Whenever the government claims "health and safety concerns" it's almost always bullshit.

Yup I'd say it's primarily that they want to know what you're doing and what taxable improvements you're making. Safety is an aspect but I don't get the sense that it's the primary motivation.

I know exactly what you’re talking about. It’s a huge problem in the inspection community and it really puts contractors in a difficult position, not wanting to aggrieve an inspector that you will have to deal with in the future. There are many subtle ways that they can retaliate against you that is not illegal. For instance, say the policy is that you are required to give 72 hours notice for an electrical rough in inspection, there will be times that you really need it sooner than that and most inspectors would gladly accommodate you. Trust me, the inspector you griped about will have you waiting the full amount of time on every single job in the future.

Over the years I only had one inspector with a snarky attitude. I sensed he didn't appreciate my calm, matter-of-fact responses as he threw his weight around. More than happy a different inspector with a more professional attitude came by for the final inspection (it passed).

Just like Manitoba. Where I live, you need a permit to move a shed onto your 3 acre wooded lot.

​@@DrewJacobson61 Bro I have seen some of the shortiest work done in Manitoba ? what are you talking about ? It's funny how the native don't say anything about the overreaching of the government but you white people complain nonstop

​@DrewJacobson61 What a shame. Outside of Winnipeg, Manitoba has a the population density of Mongolia. Canadian govt needs to be reigned in. Big brother is not our friend.

Yup..I'm in Ontario.. I need permission from the local conservation authority to tear down and rebuild my garage, THEN apply for a city permit, all because farmers flooded the downtown 59 years ago by opening dams and now it's considered all a floodplain, literally a 120 year old house and a garage built to hold a model t.

@@OntarioBearHunter And then there’s a buddy of mine who is building $1 million plus cottage on a lake in Ontario. In his region the land is considered to be unorganized. So absolutely zero permits are required! Go figure right?

He is a professional craftsman. His mind is good at planning and his hands can sculpt anything into a first class product

Agreed - I thought the same thing !

Hey I noticed the same thing too!

Vito corleone level of quality.

@@callmeishmael7452 Truly. So many educational channels are leaning towards making their "set" interesting instead of authentic. Ultimately it is the knowledge presented which is most important ~ which EC has been nailing for years. Still, I can't help but admire how naturally crisp this particular shot lines up it caught me off guard.

Where I have done work for many years if you get a red tag you have buy another permit to get a re-inspection. It is a money thing. If you want to challenge an inspector you have go to the state capital .

As a homeowner and the one electrical inspection I had done for finishing the basement, the inspector checked all the switches, outlets and the panel. Granted I was doing the work myself and not hiring a licensed electrician - so it may have been different if I did hire it out.

@@mjdamato Did he check every screw and wire nut for tightness ?

At least there’s a record of inspection. When something goes wrong you can claim insurance and the inspector would be in trouble.

I built my own home and the inspector for the final where the actual electric is hooked up just checked outlets and made sure that things that were supposed to be GFCI/AFCI, where needed and basic safety things like that. Otherwise for the framing inspection they just glanced at the electrical and made sure it looked tidy.

@@jimyeats Exactly . So a semi loose connection at an outlet might not show at final . As for framing , dont get me started .

They can’t make you pull permits for items that are outside IBC code. There has to be a standardization for the work being done. Otherwise they have nothing to base their inspection on. So I’m not sure why you pull permits on everything you do but…. Thats your business.

You must be in Cherokee County Georgia

more like the Union screwed some stuff up.

Amen re: Boeing!

Well, that's refreshing to hear, and I don't mean that flippantly. It's nice that you received something of real value in return for your tax money and the fees you paid. I know I sound cynical, but it's true - I have a very low opinion of govt services (of all varieties) so it's nice to hear something positive every once in a while.

Nice to hear that you had a good experience permitting work. My neighbor spent close to $35,000 in permits and plans to build his shop. Permitting fees are outrageous here in Southern California. Another friend building a 1,200 sqft cottage for his parents on the property, $60k in permits and plans before breaking ground.

I've pulled permits a couple of times, and did my research (it's easy to be unaware of what you don't know!) and it was a pretty good process. Not cheap, but not expensive. I participated in a radio show years ago with a rep from the insurance industry and they said that if damage such as a fire is caused by something the homeowner did wrong AND it wasn't permitted/inspected, they would likely not cover the damage or liability. If the job was properly permitted and inspected, they would accept liability and pay for damages even if the homeowner or contractor did something wrong.

@@InspiredCraftsmanthese permit fees have no basis in reality! There is no way to justify those costs, other than “what are you going to do about it?”

@@benz-share9058 "if damage such as a fire is caused by something the homeowner did wrong AND it wasn't permitted/inspected, they would likely not cover the damage" Statements like this are all over the internet from internet "experts". And yet, there is not one verifiable story of an insurance company denying a claim from a homeowner because unpermitted work was the cause of the incident on which a claim was made. In my day, we had urban myths that promulgated themselves by being verbally repeated. Sometimes carried in periodical publications. Today, we have the internet spreading misinformation of every imaginable sort. Because, on the internet, everyone's an expert. Just ask them.

So succinctly said, in a way men were once prone to do.

They definitely do that....they also drag their feet awfully slow when it comes to a reassessment after a structure has been removed that was being taxed...but they'll sure show up the same day you build that structure to raise your taxes LOL.

We were taxed for materials on site at the end of December!

They did that to me for just planting a few bushes in my front yard.

What were the constraints?

Time and money?

It was an ell, and as I recall, headroom, landing size, rise/run/width of bottom two steps.@@suspicionofdeceit

This is a common misconception! A building inspector has no statutory authority to waive code requirements and possibly puts you in a position where it comes back to bite you. There is a well defined procedure, where a board of appeals, considers the circumstances and then can grant a variance, thereby documenting the entire matter.

Boy! Did we luck out!@@djcip1

I say the same thing teaching music theory, “you have got to learn the rules so you know what you’re doing when you break them, don’t break rules by accident or ignorance”.

So basically they are choosing to commit a felony. Tax evasion, even of property taxes, is felony in most states. Not a very good reason.

Happened to my neighbor. Built a shop (permitted), property taxes went from $3,200 to almost $9k a year. They had been protected by prop 13 until the improvements to the property.

@@_urbanmonkthe real crime is the county charging you more tax for improving your house.

​@@_urbanmonk found the democrat

@@_urbanmonk The real felony is gov't theft from hard-working citizens. Don't think the gov't is ever on your side. You are a slave like everyone else.

I actually thought you might have tougher restrictions in Germany. That's nice to hear that they are helpful!

@@rickruddSome things are for sure tough here in Germany. There are also differences in the diffferent parts of Germany. Some things are free here, but not somewhere else. So it is important to ask before you build anything. But in my case the building department was very supportive with their help. This also depends on how you ask. If you appear like a Karen or Kevin things might get tough fast. Also our service provider for gas and water did help fast. I called to ask, and he fixed a time to come out to my property bringing a copy of the relevant plan for me which showed where the lines are located and asked about my plans and what and where exactly I wanted to build. Then he gave me the required distances I had to keep and that was about it. Main point always was I asked before I did build anything. It is much easier for anyone if you check first instead of being forced to change anything build to close to a line later. About a long process to get a permit: for my first house we got the plans from the building company and their architect, then we went to our village mayor, who told us about the kindergarten the village was about to build, then he stamped and approved our plan. Then my wife went to the "Amt" (a group of villages together with an office) on way to her workplace. Here she showed the plans, and they stamped and approved it on the spot. Finally we did send the plans to the "Kreis" (something like a county). Here it took longer. A few weeks later we heard from a friend who worked in another department at the "Kreis" that we should ask about our permit because the clerk who is in charge of our village was on sick leave. They told us, yes the clerk is seriously ill, and in about two month another clerk will be transfered from elsewhere and when he is placed he will look into it..... We told this to our village mayor who then went to the office and all at once there were no problem to check our plans and a week later we got them stamped and approved....

Nice reading that. Although I am in Germany, I always thought getting these kinds of permits is difficult here. I am still young and have not built anything yet that required a permit. From your name and avatar I assume you were born in 1960. I was born in 1996 and with prices getting higher and higher, I don't see myself being able to afford land or real estate in the near future. Also doesn't help that I live near Hamburg which is expensive territory 200km around the city. I just had this discussion yesterday with a good friend drinking beer in a bar: In a city like Hamburg, housing is expensive. But in a city like Hamburg there are many places to work for. If you could work remotely, this would not be a problem. You could live where it's cheap and still work at a good job in the city. But I'm an industrial mechanic, so there ain't no "home office" for me. And maybe there is a second facett to this: People who need to live near their workplace to be able to attend it are often not the best paid. While people with better paying jobs often don't need to physically attend their place of work because working remotly is an option. But even if you were able to work remotely, most people still don't want to live far away from the city. So prices around the city are high all the time. I would love to have a place without neighbours and far off the next road. But no chance of getting that near Hamburg. Cheers

@@28thAttempt You assume right. I'm born in 1960 and there is even no one older from 1960 then me... ;-) My son is born in 1998.... I also live near Hamburg, but I was lucky that my wife and I could build our house at her parents property in our village which was big enough to create two propertys from it. About the option to find a good place outside from Hamburg it depends how far you are willing to go. For me it is about 45 minutes to the subway Horner Rennbahn. That's close enough to the city, but so far away from the A24 that I only hear the traffic if we are getting heavy rain from the south. I worked for 45 years also as a "Werkzeugmacher" and for the last 30 years I was coating tools in titanium. (you know those golden drillbits, hobs and tabs). The company is in a city between our place and Hamburg.

@@ulie1960 Then you maybe have worked for Fette? Just a guess. Thanks for the reply. Nice getting in contact in the comment section of Essential Craftsman. My dad was born in 1961 and we both enjoy watching this channel together. Cheers

That has been my experience with the inspection and permitting....all they want is your money...99% of them have no clue what you are doing, or what they are looking at. I just call and have someone come out and check the boxes once I get the job done....the hell with their bullshit permits and inspections....they aren't the ones paying the bills, nor are they gonna be standing with you if something actually goes wrong...once they got your money they're gone.

And then people ask, why the housing is so expensive? It's one of the reasons.

That's because democrats run that corrupt state. That time frame speaks volumes of their BS ways.

That is as long as the 2nd set of eyes actually know what they're looking at and knows what they're doing....so many inspectors have no clue about anything they're supposed to be checking...that's what the biggest problem with inspections and permits are...cool you spent a bunch of money doing all that but when those people show up to look at it they don't have any idea what they are looking at in the first place. Apparently anyone can be an inspector without any sort of knowledge of the industry.

I know right! I lost my dad when I was young. I come here for advice I would have gotten from pops.

For context I’m a carpenter that works in residential renovations

I'm in Colorado which has 'home rule': I'd never want to be a contractor here because in the Denver area all you need to do is cross a street and you're in Lakewood or Arvada or Wheat Ridge or Golden - and require separate licenses from their city hall. Bloody individualism! And they all follow different code years!

This kind of thing happens all the time. Building inspectors are hired and told to start doing inspections with zero training. The requirements for being an inspector should be minimum 10 years in field of what you are inspecting.. I've got an inspector who thinks he trumps engineers and I continue to have to go to the building official and threaten to sue..

All I can tell you on this is that you should always check which code and what version has been adopted by the state/locality. For example IPC vs UPC. The inspector has to use the code that has been adopted by the authority so...

​@@cpoppyfin6751I find the issue is not which code but how it is interpreted...I've taken arguments all the way to the state and won. Where I'm at the building department can't keep their inspectors because the pay is so low, so about every year we have a brand new never built anything, brand new to the trades person telling me with 30 plus years experience who has runs jobs up to 80mil dollars and is a board of director at the local exchange how it's supposed to be...

I've heard similar from an insurance industry rep.

Yep, ab initio is super convenient for the insurance company when they can blame all on the customer and ‘postmortem underwriting’ when they were just too lazy/greedy up front. They collect their premium and things go south … “oh, it appears you didn’t tell us (weren’t asked) ________ in your application, so here’s your premium back. Good luck.”

Thanks for sharing from your legal perspective. Very good to know. I always pull permits even for small projects because I know insurance companies can get guys like you to get them out of paying (more or less legitimately) and I don't want to make it easy for them.

I completed a major renovation and addition to my house and I spoke with the insurance company specifically about raising the value and completed an extensive report on the new condition of the house just for this reason. I also hired a couple of "professionals" to do some of the structural work and work on the chimney/furnace etc. to avoid assuming the liability personally in case of a loss or partial loss I didn't want to be blamed and get screwed over.

@@millibarmanhaha. You must be an attorney. We call it post loss underwriting where I’m from. But yep. Very important.

Sounds like commie New York

This is similar to the situation in the Chicago area where the wiring for single family dwellings must be in conduit.

controlling the supply of a commodity (here services bound to licenses being enforced by society) is done to prohibit/undermine competition which enables the benefactors to keep supply (way) below demand, so that revenue exceeds cost, which in turn generates profit. The very profit that otherwise would attract competition to increase the supply (until it meets demand - at cost).

This is widespread and very old.. for example: patents: 14th century Venice, Italy - introduced to keep non-domestic competition out copyrights: 17th century England - introduced to prevent other (competing) publishers from reprinting books ...and many more. They all rely on the monopol force (government) to enforce rules that benefit a few at the cost of the rest. *Problem is - societies REQUIRE governments to discipline a-social minorities or individuals.*

Good comment and excellent account name

You are always perfect when no one is looking...

There is something to be said about people innovating how people live through experimental housing.

I built a few of those straw-bale homes in Nor-Cal. The Architects were well known for their straw homes, and the engineering/structural designs have been proven in many builds. If you haven’t started purchasing material yet and you are interested, I would love to share with you, my plans of one of the homes.

Bear in mind that even if there are no inspections or permits, the county or state may have adopted the building code. You still have to follow the code.

I live in unorganized township in northern Ontario and it’s beautiful building what I want when I want.

I do the work and have an electrician come out and check it. Even doing simple replacement type work, its nice to have another set of eyes sometimes on somewhat more complex work. Its also nice to know people in the trades that can help out with that type of stuff because it cuts the costs way down.

​@@wildbill23c Yeah this can work out great. I had a significant amount of plumbing work to do. Generally, I know the code and can do the work. BUT I also have a guy who recently became a master plumber who I consulted with when I was unsure. While he was here looking at my plan, I had him do one tricky connection. Cost me maybe $150, on a job plumbers had quoted at over $2,000. I don't need to pay a master plumber to dig a hole for a pipe! Sure is nice to have one confirm the best way to do the work, though. In fact, just chatting with him on the phone before he came out solved one of the problems I was worried about. I was using PVC and Pex-B. When he mentioned Pex-A could be used that "magically" solved my problem. :)

love ur comment - esp. the addendum of "my mission", heh. 👍

Was insured for 15 years with my last carrier without ever making a claim. My truck was broken into and about $5k in personal things were stolen. After paying $1,000 dollar deductible, insurance assessed my belongings at $1,500 due to condition and wear and tear (not being new), then they canceled my policy at renewal due to having made a claim.

Like a good neighbor!

@@InspiredCraftsman THIS is exactly what they do these days. You can also get canceled out of the blue if you haven't had a claim in years, because their computer algorithms determine you are coming due to have a claim. ALL about the money these days, maximize profit, minimize loss.

5% percent of the time you have a neck ache

@@clayed3311 Only 5% of our projects don’t need permits. 100% relaxed neck.