This movie is so dark because the villain wins. It ends with complete control over the kid he’s abusing and it plays to the “victorious” feeling of winning your abusers approval - but even the director has said Neiman is going to end up like Casy in the future.
Obsession was the true villain. No one held a gun to Neimans' head. Also, I think he doesn't get a real happy ending because he lost the folder on purpose.
Fletcher was the one who recognized niemans obsession and desire for greatness when he saw him practicing after hours. He used niemans insecurity and desire for validation to make him desire his validation, to the point that niemans obsession grew to slowly destroy his life and mental state. Fletcher uses his students to try and achieve a greatness he never did, and doesn’t actually care about them, which is why when he finds out one of his ex-students killed themselves he lied to nieman and his class that his student died of some other cause, because he doesn’t want to admit that him manipulating his students is causing them pain, and then leading them to kill themselves. Nieman himself admitted at the dinner table to his family that he would be okay dying young, as long as he’s considered “great”, which shows his mentality is going to lead to his death. Fletcher is an abuser and uses the tactics of an abuser to manipulate those who desire validation to his own benefit and reputation as a composer.
absolute favorite moment is at the end when Andrew's dad is peaking through the concert hall doors and his expression drops so slightly, he sees that he has truly lost his son
When Fletcher gets upset about Sean Casey's death, I don't believe that he cared about him as a person but he was more so devastated by the fact that someone he considered his best product died before he could reach his full potential as his "Charlie Parker." The same potential he sees in Andrew! Fletcher is just too narcissistic and broken inside to realize his methods are flawed, and needs to keep believing that the abuse he puts people through is the one and only way to achieve greatness! And if you can't handle it, you're just not good enough and don't have what it takes. Not once does he ever self-reflect on his actions, and wonders "maybe he was wrong." but instead goes more psychotic and started pushing Andrew even harder.
Discussions like the one at the end of this reaction is exactly why I think this channel exceeds all the others. They don't just watch and react to the movie, they discuss the themes and intention of the movie and how it affects them personally. 👍
@@CYB3R2KOkay then, so list some channels that I should be watching then lol. Because I've never seen another movie reaction channel do it as well as Diegesis. I've never seen a reaction channel discuss filmmaking techniques such as specific shots like a split diopter, or dolly zoom for example.
The Dad loses the son. The Son fulfills his dream, reaching for elite but at the cost of his life. Andrew winds up dead in his early thirties but among the greats. Fletcher finds his Charlie Parker. How any of them move forward after reaching their life goals, living with the costs, is perfectly left to our imagination. A great film.
It’s entirely possible that Andrew wasn’t off tempo during that once scene. You could totally interpret it that Fletcher is fucking with him to get into his head.
It might seem weird but i always liked the writing of The Break up scene. As harsh as it may seem,he did the right thing by ending things with her because while he could subject himself to Fletchers Teaching doesnt mean she should be alongside him dealing with the effects.
The reason a lot of people view pressure as the path to creating greatness is that's what we have a lot of examples of. Of people being pushed, and overcoming adversity, and becoming great along the way. The problem however with taking that perspective is that it eliminates the possibility of any counter-example. We can't have the examples of the people who *could* have been great, but who we drove to give up, precisely because we drove them to give up, and so we can never know that they would have become great with a different approach. So we can't see see all of the greatness that such brutal methods have stamped out, we can only see the greatness that they created. Which is what makes it such a flawed perspective. Because it single-handedly sets out to destroy all the evidence that might prove it wrong. If you drive away everyone who doesn't respond positively to that kind of brutality, the only successful people left will be the ones who responded well to it. And then because everyone will see that the only successful people left seem to be those who responded well to brutality, they assume that that's the natural path to success.
That's the definition of survivorship bias. Your information is incomplete because you're only looking at those that made it through a selection process instead of the entire population tested.
There can be no achievement without adversity, there can be no greatness without suffering. There is no "survivorship bias" in this. We have examples all around of people who settle. Who were never pushed. Who achieve nothing. We know what that leads to. We see it everyday. All people who are great at what they do have bled for it. There is no other way.
@@Crazy_Diamond_75 There is no measuring greatness. You can only take anecdotal evidence. That is in abundance on the side of the hardest diamonds being forged under the greatest pressure.
You figured the whole Conundrum out yourself xD The Hardcore+Perfection Teaching-Style of Fletcher caused many Fallouts and even a literal Suicide, yet it also produced/enabled the generational Genius of our Protagonist and pushed him over the Edge in the End...How far are you willing to go to achieve that Perfection ? The Movie is not only great in Music and Cinematography, yet it also delivers on Philosophy and the meaning of Dedication/Sacrifice - it's a solid 10/10 from anyone's perspective :)
One of my favorite things about this movie is his defiance towards the teacher was the exact thing he was looking for, when he hit the symbol right in his face, causing him to step back, the attitude that he gave him and the constant rebellion that he had against the teacher’s criticisms was in a way exactly what Fletcher was looking for
Just some insight into what Fletcher THINKS he's doing: Musicians don't have it easy. There's always gonna be someone that doesn't like them, doesn't matter why. If you know that and don't let it get to you, you'll survive. But the way Fletcher is implementing that is the absolute wrong way to do it.
I'm a full-time creative, and the number of people, even people who professed to be friends, who've tried to do this (unsolicited) is mind-boggling. I think what I've come to learn is that this kind of negativity isn't avoided or ignored, it's absorbed - there's no way to put your heart and soul into something you're creating, and not care when people are negative about it.
Hats off to the artists who are just as crazy as the two main characters in this story when it comes to their craft. It's toxic, it's ugly, it's unhealthy, but think about all the great authors, musicians and painters that had the same drive. The end results are pretty frickin' amazing.
I also believe that, if you want the extreme of something good, you have to be willing to accept the extreme of something bad also. Not everyone is meant to be great, you either crumble under the pressure, or you rise up, no in between.
I really love that the ending is very hype in that usual satisfactory way you expect from movies, but it's so tragic of an ending. The abuser WON over the abuse victim.
Damien Chazelle, masterful director. Whiplash, La La Land, First Man, Babylon. You should definitely do a Damien Chazelle film festival. I would especially be here for that.
live chat was so weird during this reaction.. arguing if musicians liked the movie or not doesn't matter.. people who get it know that the movie is about abuse, not music; music is just the medium.
How is this about abuse. Is training a marine to the point of breaking abuse? Or is it so they become the best they can be? Fletcher was looking for the next alltime great jazz musician, Neiman wanted it no matter the cost. That's how greatness comes about. It it not easy and it is not comfortable.
@@mikeceebo8611the difference is that’s in THE MARINES you know what you’re signing up for but andrew is just trying to do his best at music i wouldn’t say it’s all about abuse but it’s kinda like a metaphor for abuse
@Diegesis the video seems to have some issues, either that or my graphics card is dying but after checking other videos it seems to be related to this one only.
That scene in the beginning with the teacher & Andrew talking in the hallway, yall got it right on the nose with that observation. a sort of love bombing, creating a false sense of security, to lull him to sleep. and create an opportunity to pounce on him, at the exact moment he thinks he's not drumming perfectly. And the teacher does this because he knows he's more talented than anyone else in the classroom, he sees something different with this kid. That's why he is way tougher on him. As hard as he is on the whole class, Miles teller (Andrew) gets it way worse.
My favorite thing ever is when people find out JK Simmons is the voice of the Yellow m&m. He was in studio recording a new m&m commercial two days after winning the Oscar for this movie.
As a drummer, no, you do not want to learn drums. It is way too expensive. It is so much fun but if you take to it, it will drain your wallet at all times. 😂😂
Another way to read this movie is the teacher was actually the main characters voice in his head, the driving force telling himself he isnt good enough and to work harder
his method does not work for 90% of the people to bring out the best of their ability but they lack the drive to press on. However, it will bring out greatness in that 10% who have the drive and would go on to become the best. There is a bible verse that speaks to this "For as gold is tested in fire worthy men are tested in the crucible of humiliation."
I do not think he won as a villain but he was always one step ahead. However in the end, the kid was molded into what the kid wanted to be, despite being played in front of an audience that can determine your entire future in the career. The kid was purely in control, and in turn, cued him in instead. The movie will give you whiplash by the edge in this movie alone.
I'm not sure where I heard it from. Whether it was the director or just a discussion around a group of friends. But I agree with it that Andrew does become one of the greats, but just like he (or was it his family) that describe the very greats die young ... he may have got his recognition but it's going to come at a cost. Which is why I always see the terror in his dad's face, cuz he knows his son will be great but at a painful cost.
20:35 I feel like this is the difference between men and women. I applaud his maturity here. He recognized that he couldn't be married to both music and a girl, so he chose music. And instead of stringing her along, making her suffer as he ignores her more and more, he came to her and was honest about the situation. He tells her he can't give her the time she deserves, then he ends the relationship like an adult. Whereas if he went the other way with it and and tried to juggle both commitments and stood her up on dates and neglected her emotionally, you guys would still be judging him.
13:42 they make it seem like fordam is some sort of community college. It’s an elite college. I definitely wouldn’t advise going there if you don’t know your major from the jump…just to prevent insane debt
The students should be given a truthful and accurate representation to what this class and experience is like prior to joining so that they have the opportunity to know what they are getting into. That is the issue here. The method is dangerous but legitimate for those who choose it. But they have to be given the opportunity to know what they're choosing.
It's not legitimate, it's just an abuser using his authority as a 'genius' to take advantage of a bunch of kids burning desire to make it. 99% of teachers don't beat, berate, and terrify students into reaching their potential. This is the movie depiction of such a person too, so it's a lot more romanticised than how this would play out in real life. I guarantee if you were watching a teacher do this to students in real life you wouldn't be calling him legitimate.
For me this became a horror movie about a young man being driven into insanity when he ran off from being hit upside down by a truck. No "it was worth it" possible after that. A really terrific horror movie!
Of any genre, proly the best movie made in the past 20 years. Buddy Rich is the greatest drummer who ever lived. He was the hero of John Bonham of LED Zeppelin and Neil Piert of Rush. Type in here, Buddy Rich plays drums. The final song progression goes from threatening teacher/student, to what are u doing man, to Andrew. Fletcher finally got his Charlie Parker! Pro tip JK studied concert music in college and Miles played drums in a 80s cover band!
Terrence Fletchers philosophy doesn't make any sense on its face. He claims that a true generational talent would not stop practicing in the face of extreme abuse. But then why would a true generational talent stop in the face of extreme coddling? Wouldn't his definition of true generational talent not be one to settle for less? Studies show that neither positive or negative reinforcement are clearly superior at causing improvement in individuals and that its very much case by case.
This film is a masterpiece! I’ve watched it and reactions to it multiple times. I find it interesting though that not once has anyone mentioned the fact that Andrew is clearly on the autism spectrum! I appreciate the subtlety in which it was displayed. His father says he has trouble making eye contact and he keeps his eyes glued to the floor. That along with his obsession and laser focus on one thing are key symptoms. Another brilliant part is how the end and overall film can be interpreted. The shot of Andrew’s father watching him was genius and purposefully misleading. He’s not in awe of his son’s talent. He’s in fear, witnessing his son’s obsession and further descent knowing that now, for sure, he will do whatever it takes to become one of the greats. Lastly, i hear people debating who really won. To me, you can’t have Andrew winning without Fletcher, the antagonist, also winning.
31:47 Your reaction there is exactly why America isn’t competitive internationally anymore. People need to be driven to excellence because most don’t even realize how good they can be.
If you like this movie, you would probably really like Mommie Dearest, which has a more fully developed antagonist in my opinion, and is supposed to be based on the real story of Joan Crawford and Christina Crawford, as I understand. It is quite good, but can be quite intense.
Putting Maple and Arianna together was the worst decision of this channel. Previously (when they were reacting solo) they used to talk about direction, cinematography, characters, story etc, but now they just express their feelings to each other and talk about irrelevent topics. The reaction quality has dropped off massively and you can see it with the channel's subscriber regression. Go back to previous arrangements if you want this channel to grow at all, people loved those reactions.
I really enjoyed your review. One of the reasons why this film was controversial at the time is because it does challenge our levels of comfort vs where are we trying to get to. It’s a huge reason why Kobe Bryant could relate to the movie so much because Phil Jackson who was his head coach for three consecutive titles was very critical of him in a book. So when Phil Jackson came back to coach the team and people wondered why would Kobe wanna play for him again, He said me being great and winning takes precedent over me being comfortable or protecting my ego. Because in life we don’t get participation trophies, We are judged for the results, Not the journey. But we have to go on the journey to get to the desired destination.
It was controversial because of how it depicts the cycle of abuse. Someone like Kobe might've thrived on that, but we have clearly seen better players like Lebron who never needed that shit to be one of the greatest in the game.
@@labbetussThis isn’t a one size fits all. The defining question in our journey is this. Do you wanna get it right and win or be right and lose? Andrew hugging his dad in that moment made his decision. I don’t care whether you like me or not, This moment is mine and you can’t take it from me and I’m taking my respect, destiny and legacy. In the immortal words of the man you just mentioned… We are all witnesses.💯🤘🏽
i have a significantly different opinion on this film than most i don’t think the “villain wins” because i don’t think fletcher is a villain. he has a single minded goal to push people to the brink to get the best out of them in a world surrounded by soft people that are willing to accept mediocrity much like our modern world. it requires effort and pushing to get the best out of people. neiman never could have had that final solo if it wasn’t for incentive and a drive to become the best instilled in him by fletcher. it’s a fantastic movie because it displays the high cost of achieving greatness. and everyone should strive to achieve greatness in everything they do, not mediocrity because it’s easier and makes them feel comfortable. i also dont like how people view neiman’s father as if he cares about him any more than fletcher does. it’s much better to be adored by a teacher that motivates you and abuses you to achieve that than a father that doesn’t even care about you because you aren’t what they want.
It's actually not unusual to ask another player near you in an orchestra for a note so you can tune your instrument (though tuning drums is not really a thing). It's not a power play. Lots of other things in this movie are unusual though. XD
You two are so funny.😂 Also, in True Detective, the biker gang scene, Maple started to tell about her brief accidental brush with some similar persons...I still want to hear this story. 😮🤔 😂😁
I admit whiplash is still an intense movie and its one of the best movies from 2014. Jk Simmons played one of the best villains which was his portrayal of fletcher. I fully agree on that there are way better methods of teaching over using manipulative behavior and being abusive in general. In my opinion there is a line and if a person crosses it then it's not good. The main message throughout the whole movie is how far will one person will go to achieve of being one of the greats and that's through a lot of sacrifice and being extremely focused and disciplined even if that means being abused daily. If I was one of fletchers students I would of quit automatically because I don't tolerate abuse ever. Good reacton to Whiplash and take care.
drums nowadays aren’t often tuned to any specific key so i doubt any average jazz drummer would be able to tune anything to any specific note without a reference. feel free to correct me tho i’ve also never heard of any drummers hands bleeding from drumming, whether jazz drums, marching drums, or otherwise. in fact, i was taught that if it’s fucking you up physically then your technique is wrong.
