Whirlwinds of Flame - The Bombing of the Japanese mainland - With John Curatola

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Whirlwinds of Flame - The Bombing of the Japanese mainland
With John Curatola
Part of Aviation in the Pacific Week 2
More Strategic Bombing content on WW2TV
• Strategic Bombing in WWII
Our guest today is John Curatola, a US military historian and retired Marine Corps officer. He is now a full time historian at the National WWII Museum in New Orleans. Previously he has taught at the US Army Command and General Staff College and the School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS).
John will talk about the development of strategic bombing from the interwar period right up to 1945 with a focus on the bombing of Japan.
Bigger Bombs for a Brighter Tomorrow: The Strategic Air Command and American War Plans at the Dawn of the Atomic Age, 1945-1950 by John Curatola
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1 окт 2024

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Комментарии : 122

@dave3156 2 года назад

Excelleny presentation by John today. I believe there were a number of factors which led to this strategy: full mobilization of the Japanese population; no surrender by Japanese troops; Kamikaze attacks on Allied shipping; and horrendous losses at Iwo Jima and Okinawa. At the time, Allied planners estimated 1 million casualties on a landing in Japan. With what was known at the time, there appeared to be little alternative. Great program on a difficult topic--thanks Paul!!

@drayc48 2 года назад

What I understood from this presentation is the U S should have blockaded the Japanese islands until enough of the civilians died of starvation that would somehow been more humane. Frankly I have trouble with that course of action. My opinion is there were no good courses of action due to the hard line military council.

@lyndoncmp5751 2 года назад

And all the people who would have continued to die under Japanese overseas occupation while Japan itself was being starved. So far more would have died in the long run.

@philbosworth3789 2 года назад

John is so right. All out war is not a game of cricket. Sad, but true. Great episode yet again.

@morganhale3434 2 года назад

I was born in 1965 in West Germany and my father (who was a petty officer in the USN) was from Vermont and my mother was from Texas and they were both born in 1940. My family, who most of them during my childhood at the time were alive during WWII, their memories of the war were very vivid. They all agreed NAZI Germany had to be defeated, but the anger and hatred towards Japan was palpable. Pearl Harbor left a very, very bad taste in my family's mouth. NAZI Germany just horrified them, Imperial Japan had to be destroyed.

@amerigo88 2 года назад

In the book, "The Wild Blue", the author points out that Japanese swords killed more Filipino, Vietnamese, and Chinese civilians than all the bombings of Japan, combined. Also, name a Japanese unit larger than a squad that surrendered before August 14, 1945. I'll wait...

@amerigo88 2 года назад

Correction, after looking back at my notes, the book is "Flyboys: A True Story of Courage", by James Bradley, 2003. "The Wild Blue" is an excellent history book by Stephen Ambrose. It is about the experience of late WW2 American bomber crews operating the B-24 Liberator. My paternal grandfather was a fireman at a Liberator advanced training base in the US during WW2.

@halking3497 Год назад

You are, of course, generally right. However, I believe there were some Japanese mass surrenders towards the end of the battle of Okinawa. Of course, that doesn't distract from the the fact that many, many Americans and Okinawan civilians died before that happened. And that certainly doesn't mean that Japan itself was going to surrender without a lot of horribly imposed persuasion. To paraphrase Bomber Harris, it is naive to think you can bomb everyone else and no one is going to bomb you.

@joeyartk Год назад

So what you are saying is that the Japanese and Americans both committed many warcrimes, and neither had the moral high ground. I agree there.

@scottkrater2131 Год назад

@@joeyartk Japanese crimes and atrocities make what the US did look practically Christian. There's no comparison between the two.

@hededcdn Год назад

@@joeyartk no, the Japanese are responsible for 20 MILLION DEATHS. U.S. DID NOTHING LIKE THAT. Your lack of understanding is comical.

@Caratacus1 2 года назад

If you're genuine about exploring history then it's vital not to back-project from today's perspective. Put aside your foreknowledge, your hindsight, and your biases and focus on the viewpoints of the contemporaries. It's the only way to understand why they did what they did it. It's the only way to learn from their mistakes. John is spot on. Sorry I missed the live show but am enjoying the catch-up.

@joshwhite3339 2 года назад

Absolutely. But don't forget that the knowledge we have today is just as vital. It is critical to do both essentially: deeply study history as if you were in the people's shoes, and then also marry that with the vastly expanded knowledge that decades of perspective provide. Only by bringing both together will you get the maximum utility out of historical study.

@JakeCole1453 2 года назад

I love my WW2 but the Korean War is my primary focus. Anyone interested in how the B-29 fared during that conflict should read 'Black Tuesday Over Namsi'. You'll find a lot of the issues they faced over Japan were never really rectified, in fact only to be exacerbated by it's obsolescence.

@brianaustin8989 2 года назад

This has always been a bone of contention with me, as to the Americans saying they went in with precision attacks, rather than and condemming Harris for his Area Bombing policy, when that is exactly what they proceeded to do on Japan, with the fire raids.

@amerigo88 2 года назад

Britain was enduring bombing raids and missile strikes from 1940 to 1945 while American cities were untouched. This doubtless accounts for some of the difference in national outlooks. The movie "The Life and Death of Colonel Blimp" takes a hard look at the near annihilation of chivalry on the battlefield that took place from the beginning of the Boer War to the end of WW2. Excellent movie.

@MrNicoJac 2 года назад

I'd _highly_ advise you to listen to the podcast episode Bomber Mafia, by Malcolm Gladwell (or buy the book). He notes how the US bombers _wanted_ to do precision bombing, but then ran into this thing they didn't know existed - the jet stream. This meant they either flew 40 miles an hour (ground speed) or 400 miles an hour! (these numbers will be off, but it was less than 100 into a head wind) Being so slow made them sitting ducks for AA batteries and interceptors. Being so fast made aiming accurately mathematically impossible. As a result, the jet stream forced them to bomb from lower altitude than originally envisioned. The reduced accuracy also made them go for carpet bombing. And once you're carpet bombing a nation whose cities' dwellings are mostly made of wood and paper, fire bombing suddenly makes a lot of military and economic sense - morality be damned.... Anyhow, I'm sure I misremember certain details - would highly recommend the podcast or book!

@amerigo88 2 года назад

@@MrNicoJac In the book , "Flyboys" focused on the Pacific Air War, FDR and the USAAF leadership were well aware of Japan's vulnerability to firebombing virtually before the smoke cleared from the Pearl Harbor attack. The Great Kanto Earthquake of the 1920's had made this vulnerability abundantly clear. According to "Flyboys," it was really just a matter of time until a Lemay or other such commander was going to be tasked with burning the industrial and residential heart out of Japan's cities. As Ian Toll made clear in the book, "Twilight of the Gods," the Japanese Civil defense was woefully unprepared to deal with bombing raids. By 1944, the German Civil Defense forces had made a science of handling and recovery from a bombing raid . Civilian casualties were typically low thanks to warnings , response , and extensive bomb shelters. As soon as the bombers had departed, workers from the Todt Organization were clearing the roads of debris to allow emergency vehicles to pass. Other workers were sweeping the streets of broken glass and a "return to normalcy" was emphasized as if a thunderstorm had just rolled across the city . Hamburg and Dresden are notable ,but fairly rare exceptions. Japan's Civil Defense forces really had nothing comparable when Lemay arrived.

@TheVigilant109 2 года назад

Excellent presentation. Provoked a lot of questions. Look forward to seeing John back again.

@KevinJones-yh2jb 2 года назад

Caught up now with Johns presentation this evening. Wow Paul that was some subject, really made me think. You develop it ie the bomb, you have to use it! Very thought provoking tonight, bring John back Paul I could listen to him all evening. Thank you Paul again WW2TV at it’s finest , which is actually always!

@davidlavigne207 2 года назад

A very professional presentation that was informative and thought provoking. I shall refrain from expressing my own opinion as it is perhaps too emotional and biased, but I shall provide this quote from Sir Arthur "Bomber" Harris: At the start of the bombing campaign, Harris said, quoting the Old Testament, "The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everyone else, and nobody was going to bomb them. At Rotterdam, London, Warsaw and half a hundred other places, they put their rather naïve theory into operation. They sowed the wind, and now they are going to reap the whirlwind. (Hosea 8:7)" Perhaps this applied even more so to the militaristic Japanese regime that began the war in 1937 with the same expectations when they indiscriminately bombed Chinese cities . They continued this with Singapore, Manila, and many other places after December 7th, 1941. To quote Prime Minister Churchill in his speech to the American congress "What kind of people do they think we are?" I can't wait to watch the next installment about the atomic bombs.

@mynamedoesntmatter8652 2 года назад

People today use the phrase “war is hell” as a catch phrase. We have the liberty of breaking down the inter dynamics in hindsight. People today are still breaking down the burning of Atlanta. If I’d been alive during the war, I’d be fully positive about SAC precision bombing. I’d have wanted the war to end. And the home front was not all fully aware of what the heads were looking at as they were elbows and backsides into this 24/7. How tiresome it all must’ve been. One of my uncles sent home a German uniform. My grandmother hated so bad that her boys were off in the war somewhere. She was a ‘worrier.’ When she got that parcel in the mail with the letter telling her to keep it for him , she let everything get under her skin. She took that uniform outside, made a fire and burned it. The family always talked about “Morris’s German uniform” and they wouldn’t have allowed her to do what she did. Today that would probably be called a racist act (back to the live feed talk). Racist, prejudice, predisposed . . . Fantastic show. Many thanks.

@RandomGuy-qm3mg 2 года назад

My uncle was a bombardier stationed in Italy near the end of our war with Germany. His unit was in the process of packing up to join the efforts against Japan. Everyone was very happy the war ended and didn't really care about atomic bombs or fire bombing, they just wanted to live and come home to America.

@steveoliver771 2 года назад

Yet another great show! Dr. Curatola correctly pointed out that this was a race war on both sides. Something that a lot of historians don't mention. I would second his recommendation of "War without Mercy" by John Dower.

@garymiller_85 2 года назад

Wow, incredible presentation. There's something blood chilling about the scientific method the Americans approached developing their incendiary bombs, especially when the American homeland didn't have the same level of threat from the Japanese.

@garymiller_85 2 года назад

Just thinking also, the speaker was talking that this was effectively a racial war, with a racial element. At what point does the firebombing become genocide. Just adds an extra element that I never considered.

@mgway4661 8 месяцев назад

@@garymiller_85as soon as Curtis Lemay took over it became a genocide

@johndeboyace7943 Год назад

The Japanese had militarized the populace, thus they were all targets as any soldier would be. They were not bombing civilians. The Japanese were victims of their own press clippings, killing civilians, prisoner abuse and veneration of the emperor, dying for him.

@halking3497 Год назад

I think it was Richard Frank who pointed out that World War II was probably the only war where the losers killed more people than the winners. And Ian Toll pointed out that the Japanese killed more people in Manila than died in Tokyo. Sadly, turnabout is fair play. Considering how civilized the Japanese are today, I have never understood what came to possess them during that war.

@sharadowasdr 2 года назад

I live in Calcutta and it was a major base for sending supplies to China over the hump. Air bases were built all around Calcutta and the Dum Dum aerodrome was used as a military base as well. There were also hidden bases which utilized some of the massive jute factories, converted into an air base to avoid Japanese scouts and bombers. I didn't know there were bombing runs as well.

@matthewgreenfield360 2 года назад

Yet another superb presentation, well done John and Paul! Just to clarify the Butt Report figures (18 mins into the presentation): John mentioned one in ten RAF aircraft got to the target. What he didn't say is that this figure applies to targets in the Ruhr only, where targets were difficult to find due to industrial haze and very active defences. For other targets the RAF were a lot more successful - up to two in three reaching the target. See James Jefferies' WW2TV talk 'The Other Few' for more details.

@Caratacus1 2 года назад

Paul's final question reminded me of the truism that 'If you're holding a big hammer then everything starts to look like a nail'. I have the first edition of the 'Giles' cartoon annual from 1945. 'Giles' was the premier cartoon in a major daily newspaper in the UK. Several of the cartoons address the fire bombings and atomic bombings. They are both treated as subjects ripe for comedy and are apparently hilarious to people inured to 5 years of total war. A perfect indicator of the state of people's minds at the time and also why total war is absolutely bloody awful. Great show again.

@benjo_pharmer 2 года назад

A distinction that is nominal in nature is 'civilian' v 'military' in Japan at that time. Almost every family had members in the armed forces. Did they react with horror to the atrocities their family members were doing from the Manchuria invasion onwards? Did they write letters to them, expressing his disgusted they were? Did they protest? If not then it's hard to feel moral outrage when the war came to their doorstep.

@billenright2788 2 года назад

they started it, we ended it. case closed. end of story.

@MrNicoJac 2 года назад

Simple-minded much, lol?

@billenright2788 Год назад

@@MrNicoJac Seriously??? The Japanese wanted to own the western Pacific and most of Asia. They picked a fight with the wrong dog. I don't lose one iota of sleep worrying about how many of them died. Too bad, so sad.

@MrNicoJac Год назад

@@billenright2788 Thanks for once again proving my point 😆👍🏼

@user-tp4jl4xt6w Год назад

@@billenright2788 were the firebombings on Japanese cities really needed? I mean it costed thousands and thousands of unnecessary civilian casualties which is a lot more than the casualties of Pearl Harbor. Kinda sounds like a war crime to me

@markrunnalls7215 2 года назад

RAF flew the B29 and it was called the Washington .

@robgrey6183 12 дней назад

My father was in the Pacific scheduled for the invasion of Japan. Then the war ended, and they sent him to occupy Korea. God bless the men like LeMay, Groves, and Tibbets that allowed him to go home.

@TomFynn 26 дней назад

"Never start a fight, but always finish it." Babylon 5 Japan started the fight. The US ended it.

@patmcdonald766 2 месяца назад

The Banzai suicide attacks of CIVILIANS in Saipan (TIME and PLACES) told us then, that people were going to die and this minimized out USA causalities.

@stevej8005 Месяц назад

Fantastic and thought provoking presentation. I thought that John made a great effort trying to cover the technical, tactical and political issues of the firebombing, especially from the point of view of commanders, politicians and the public at the time.

@shoofly529 Год назад

I would add that Japan ordered their entire population mobilized to fight the US invasion of their country. The Japanese government made all of their people combatants.

@Helm-w1q 8 месяцев назад

To think, all it took for this to happen is bombing Pearl Harbor on December 7th 1941. It was the intention not only to win that war, but to make it clear that they don't ever want to do this again. When you look at pictures of Japan and Germany after the war, those people learned that lesson. I for one hope it stays learned and that others who may entertain the idea of attacking us forgets it.

@spidrespidre 2 года назад

Excellent presentation. Thanks, guys

@litltoosee Год назад

The Japanese were fanatical, heartless fighters. For the glory of the Empire.

@alanbattenburg3578 9 месяцев назад

We do not know what the 21st Air Force Intelligence knew and what they did not. The 21st Intelligence officer died after the war and no one that was in the Intelligence section has ever written a book or articles. The Thai air attache in Tokyo was in effect a forward observer. Questions asked in Bangkok by the Americans, The Thai ` millitaru asked their attache in Tokyo questions. The Attache answered the questions, And American code breakers are breaking the Thai Military Attache code. code.

@Lemonhead209 2 года назад

Superb presentation, I’ve been truly educated, great guest.

@tbbb2 2 года назад

Though I have not seen nearly as many of Paul's presentations as I'd like to, I have seen MANY. Quite simply, this one goes to a place I don't think any of the others I've seen do. John Curatola is an incredibly knowledgeable and compelling speaker and Paul, your questions were absolutely brilliant. I also try and make my judgements about the war in light of what the participants knew at the time they were making life and death decisions. With that in mind I also find it impossible to question the end of war decisions the American gov't. and military made. My Dad was still in the South Pacific at the end of the war and had the invasion of Japan gone ahead, there's a chance I would not have been here to type this tonight. Discussions like this are ESSENTIAL if this generation of Americans is to be fully aware of just what a real war looks like. Kudos guys!

@danmcdonald9117 Год назад

The Japanese liked to think they were honourable, their behavior proved otherwise. They deserved everything they received. They sowed the wind and reaped the whirlwind

@sparkey6746 2 года назад

Excellent presentation, thank you.

@MrCrflover 2 года назад

This is one of my favorite shows! My wife even started watching with me. And she normally teases me about all my ww2 shows and how they put her to sleep! Great job guys!

@MrNicoJac 2 года назад

You should introduce her to Perun. The comment "I never expected to look forward to my weekly 1 hour slides show about military economics" always ranks among the top-voted comments.

@merc88 2 года назад

Love this guy.... great entertainment....

@322tor 2 года назад

I heard a long time ago that the US need not bomb Japan as the Russian army was rapidly advancing, in a few weeks had unoccupied China. He made the point that the US had to nuke Japan, as the Russians had reached first Berlin and reaching Tokyo would have changed the geopolitical scenario as we know today. The name of the historian is Ward Wilson and there are some video's on YT

@scottkrater2131 Год назад

The Russians got to Berlin, because we weren't interested in taking casualties to take a city deep inside the Russian occupation zone. And the Russians didn't have the logistics to invade the Homeland of Japan with enough strength to ever hope to reach Tokyo. You can't float T-34's across the ocean. And they didn't have the naval assets to get them there.

@billenright2788 2 года назад

i'm a ww2 aviation geek. love this stuff.

@joshowen9054 3 месяца назад

when the bomb burns at 2000F you die by fire, not by lack of oxygen. he is trying hard to remove guilt. ironically LeMay got First‐Class Order of Merit of the Grand Cordon of the Rising Sun from the Japanese govt for helping to establish Japan’s modern air force after the war.

@WW2TV 3 месяца назад

We have presented both sides of the argument about the bombing of Japan, both with conventional and atomic weapons

@linnharamis1496 3 месяца назад

Recently, I read a book on this topic. However, your speaker added many details and filled in the picture - another excellent program. Thanks👍

@WW2TV 3 месяца назад

Glad it was helpful!

@JustMe00257 2 года назад

Great discussion, thank you very much.

@WW2TV 2 года назад

Our pleasure!

@basedgamerguy818 4 месяца назад

My grandmother lived in the north of France in when the allies parashuted in and described how ahe collected the parashutes to make clothes for her and her siblings. By that time in the war her and her 11 siblings only had sugar to eat.

@WW2TV 4 месяца назад

Interesting story, thanks for sharing. Although I am not sure what this has to do with the subject of the video

@hkmp5s 2 года назад

Imperial Japan Got off light as far as I'm concerned.

@MrNicoJac 2 года назад

There's a BIG difference between what the political leaders deserved, and what the average citizen deserved..... "Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement."

@hkmp5s 2 года назад

@@MrNicoJac Sometimes they must serve as an example to the rest of the world of what not to do.

@MrNicoJac 2 года назад

@@hkmp5s Japan lost close to 4% of its population. Roughly 3 million deaths, 326000 military wounded, and god knows how many civilian wounded. And then there's still the fall out after effects, of course. I'd say that serves as a pretty strong example....

@user-tp4jl4xt6w Год назад

@@hkmp5s were the firebombings on Japanese cities really needed? I mean it costed thousands and thousands of unnecessary civilian casualties which is a lot more than the casualties of Pearl Harbor. Kinda sounds like a war crime to me

@udeychowdhury2529 8 месяцев назад

Thanks to both of you

@linnharamis1496 3 месяца назад

Thanks!

@lewistrott417 Год назад

Absolutely exceptional presentation, even if the presenter is a Marine (I am a retired Master Sergeant, US Army....it's a requirement to give any and all Marines grief!) Mr. Curatola is outstanding, his insights along with the facts are brilliant. Thanks as always for bringing forth the best shows.

@kenfox22 Год назад

Talk louder. Barley hear you

@WW2TV Год назад

Or maybe turn the volume up?

@jimwatts5192 2 года назад

Howdy folks. Dr John is a great guest with lots of info and perspectives. Fantastic talk on the challenges of strategic bombing in the Pacific. Lemay had an unfortunate and thankfully limited political career, but he dropped the Big One (twice) and he built SAC, love it or not

@scottgrimwood8868 2 года назад

What an excellent presentation. John gives a very comprehensive overview of the US bombing campaign over Japan. I really appreciated him being very frank about the issues with the B-29; an element often overlooked.

@therealuncleowen2588 2 года назад

No precision, no problem as long as you don't mind collateral damage. He bombing of Japan was terrible but it had to be done.

@reiniergroeneveld7801 2 года назад

Fantastic presentation on the B-29 bombing of Japan. The statistics are horrific.

@talktidy7523 2 года назад

Excellent stuff. Thought provoking as usual.

@markmorgan6179 2 года назад

Incredibly interesting but sobering presentation. Thank you

@andrewbutcher6162 2 года назад

Another excellent show! The numbers that go into and come out of these campaigns in the Pacific are truly astounding and do not get the attention they deserve. Outstanding once again.

@tonyvart7068 2 года назад

Truly sobering show..........never seen those post raid photos before.......

@ericcombs4017 2 года назад

anything you cover on ww2 aviation, I'm in

@stephenbrooks4713 2 года назад

Fantastic show - Thanks John an Paul

@Solrac1424 4 месяца назад

And to think what must have gone through the minds of the b29 airmen who parachuted into enemy territory where they knew the outraged civilization would unleash hell on them.

@glennstribling7797 2 года назад

Another wonderful presentation. Would look forward to this presenter being on the channel again in the future.

@WW2TV 2 года назад

Us too!

@brianschwarz 2 года назад

Excellent. Thank you.

@jonnieinbangkok 2 года назад

Liquid glass...sizzling humans...I hadn't heard these before; awesome work...thank you General Lemay ✈ ✈ ✈

@Splattle101 2 года назад

Atomic bombing or invasion is a false dilemma. By early 1945 the Allies knew the Japanese were looking for a way out, and that invasion was not necessary.

@lyndoncmp5751 2 года назад

If they were looking for a way out, why didn't they just surrender? That's the easiest and quickest way out.

@Splattle101 2 года назад

@@lyndoncmp5751 Because of unconditional surrender. The Allies knew that, too. The Brits were reading all the Japanese diplomatic traffic between Tokyo and their embassy in Moscow, so they KNEW. That's not an analytical inference, it's a fact.

@MrNicoJac 2 года назад

It had to be atomic bombing, invasion, or naval blockade. Without any of those, there's no overruling of the hardliners. If you want to refute this, I look forward to your sources! :)

@scottkrater2131 Год назад

Would you have allowed Germany to get the deal Japan wanted? No occupation, no punishment for war crimes? They were looking to end the war favorably for themselves, not to surrender.

@Splattle101 Год назад

@@scottkrater2131 That's a side issue. The Germans were defeated already. The Allies knew the Soviet declaration of war would produce Japanese request for peace. Stalin had said the USSR would attack 3 months after Germany fell. Early August. It was a public statement, so the Japanese knew it was coming, too. Invasion was never a realistic option by 1945. Blockade and USSR action in Manchuria would do the job. Indeed, they did.