Who Are the Good Guys? An Analysis of the Skyrim Civil War 

Anyone else think its chilling a guild of time travelling wizards appeared after thousands of years of silence to stop the thalmor from obtaining a piece of a god?

It really is a testament to the quality of Skyrim that even after 10 years we’re still making videos about it.

The most ideal scenario would be having a dragonborn human unite the realms by presenting himself as the second coming of tiber septim and then proceed to unleash the Numidium on top of the summerset isles like Todd Howard unleashing an unwanted skyrim update on my mod setup.

Empire: I don't feel like fighting the Dominion anymore. Hammerfell: Fine. I'll do it myself.

I always go empire for the exact reasons you do, with the added belief that a United and powerful empire is the best way to set up an ultimate future victory over the Thalmor

2 Random Aldmeri Dominion soldiers chatting: "Are we the baddies?"

What's not really discussed in this debate is that the imperial troops are pretty much all local recruits from Skyrim. It's Nords vs. Nords.

I find it a little bit shallow that you as the Dragonborn can't just delete the Thalmor from Skyrim. Like kill most of their agents and capture most of their strongholds in Skyrim. I bet this would bring Ulfric and Tulius to the table and maybe even truce between the two could be achived. Imagine: the Empire gains one hell of a commander and a respctable fighting force to kick in some altmeri teeth.

The one time I played a Thalmor was actually one of the more fun playthroughs I’ve done. Namely, because from the start I had his redemption arc planned out from the beginning. He wasn’t one of those low ranking scrubs who think this is about transitory racial superiority, but rather someone who knows that the Thalmor’s true goal is the destruction of Mundus and it’s false ephemeral existence to return the Mer to their rightful forms as divine spirits. True immortality restored to his people and freeing the mortals of Tamerial from their eternal pointless struggle against the Daedra slowly corrupting and then eternally damning them. A Thalmor who was so indoctrinated he truly believed that he was helping the pointlessly struggling humans by saving them from, in his mind, inevitable permanent suffering at the hands of the Daedra. But then he slowly sees more and more of the mortals, as well as the weaknesses within his own people, and, after having born witness to Sovengard itself and the events of the Vigilant Mod, comes to understand that Mortalkind is worth protecting, and casts aside his place in the Thalmor Ranks with the full intention of standing against them. Super fun time.

The Argonians are kept outside because of the tension with the dark elves. Many of the dark elves are refugees because of the Argonian invasion.

Love the thought at the end, about every character being their own person and having separate world views and beliefs - that’s how you really get the most out of an RPG, and that’s the right way to play a game like Skyrim. Great video!

Although I doubt Bethesda did it intentionally, for me the civil war is one of the best written quests in the Elder Scrolls period, simply on the bases that there is no right or wrong side here. Both Empire and Stormcloaks have valid points, but also glaring flaws that make them unsuited to rule. The only right answer would be to remain neutral and protect Skyrims people as a whole, but the game pretty much forces you to intervene eventually, after defeating Alduin. Wich forces you to pick whatever you see as the lesser of two evils. It gives me major Game of Thrones vibes (the early seasons) and I love it.

It's important to note as well, that Windhelm has a number of Altmer living in it that are in good standing with the community, and don't get flack from people like Rolf Stone-fist. If Ulfric or the Stormcloaks would have a problem with any of the elves, it would be the Altmer and not the Dunmer due to the Aldmeri Dominion.. And on the topic of Rolf Stone-fist, while he's crude, his suspicions that those loyal to the Empire are hiding in the Grey Quarter is actually true. Upstairs in the New Gnisis Cornerclub, the owner has a suit of Imperial Armor on his shelf. People often overlook the fact that of all of the cities in Skyrim, Windhelm is the only city with a sizable population of Dunmer, as well as the only city that actively took in refugees from Morrowind. Of course that's going to raise tensions in the city, but Ulfric saw it as important enough to give an entire quarter of his city to the refugees. After this happened, the Argonians showed up, and it takes very little knowledge of the lore to know that the tensions between the Argonians and Dunmer are HIGH due to the Dunmer engaging in slavery of the beast races for so long. The Argonians invaded Morrowind as retribution for the slavery. Ulfric keeping the Argonians out of the city is done entirely to avoid a small civil war from breaking out in his city. Moving onto the Empire, people claim that they're the good guys for trying to beat back the racist Stormcloaks, but lets look at Solitude, the headquarters of the Empire in Skyrim. For one, they outright BAN Khajiit from their city, much like every other city does in Skyrim, so they aren't better in that regard. And General Tullius, the man who is often regarded as an Honorable and Respectful man REGULARLY makes derogatory remarks about the Nords of Skyrim, disrespecting their traditions and acting as if Imperials are superior. And finally, since somehow people continue to get this messed up to this day, the Thalmor Dossier on Ulfric refers to him as an Asset. This does not mean 'Agent' or 'Ally' or even imply that he's working with the Thalmor, simply that they have their uses for him, which includes allowing his war to rage on for as long as possible to keep the empire busy. This is the most misunderstood piece of info in the game, and as much as I think it's a genius plot point, I wish they hadn't included it because all it did was give a bunch of midwits on Reddit something to scream about for 13 years.

My ancestors are smiling on me imperial, can you say the same!?!?

As a writer I never liked the idea of separating wars into good vs bad sometimes it’s all just shades of gray

The Hero of Kvatch and Champion of Cyrodiil would have been disappointed to see the Empire of today

There's an EXTREMELY rare but highly important dialouge Tullius will say after the armistice with the Graybeards. He basically says that after dealing with Ulfric, He'll regroup the legion to drive the Thalmor back.

As a proud telvanni sorcerer and mycologist, i can as a matter of fact confirm that the barbaric stormcloaks, the arrogant aldmeri and the mongrel dogs of the empire are all villans.

What I find interesting in Skyrim is the surprising lack of war profitiers, everyone is usally moaning about the war but no one seems to be doing the usal thing by selling gear to both sides, If anything this just makes the both sides being thalmor puppets theory more possible to me

The Dragonborn invites the empire and stormcloak forces to discuss a temporary truce to trap a dragon in whiterun, the thalmor are present and continue hindering a conclusive truce. The dragonborn realizes that there will be no truce and much less an end to the war with the thalmor around. In his name as dragonborn he denounces the thalmor as instigators and accuses them for enslaving the empire and refusing to recognize Talos as a divine. Because of this the empire leaves the negotiation table at the request of the thalmor, with no choice the dragonborn pleas with the stormcloaks to hold off on any attacks against whiterun in hopes that it will be enough to convince Balgruuf to go forward with the plan, but Ulfric refuses noting the inclination Balgruuf has to join the empire. The dragonborn pulls an uno reverse card and challenges ulfric to a duel like he did before with the previous high king, a battle of words spoken in the language of dragons. The dragonborn defeats Ulfric, and assumes command of the stormcloak rebellion with little opposition, hardcore nords compose the rebellion and little oppose their dragonborn as leader as he promises to end the war. Balgruuf knowing the dragonborn well trusts him and allows the trapping of the dragon with the dragonborn's promise to leave whiterun out of the war. The hero defeats alduin, and with the newfound respect from the dragons and Paarthunax, the blades whom the dragon dared to attack Paarthunax under penalty of death, and the now under his command stormcloak rebellion the dragonborn declares himself the next emperor as he carries dragon blood within him like the emperors of old. He flies atop Odahviing along with other dragons who had chosen to follow him towards solitude, the blades storm the thalmor embassy giving them satisfaction in revenge, even previous blades members who were in hiding joined the cause, as the stormcloak forces high in spirits for being led by the hero who rid them of Alduin, stood by in case the empire refused the demands the dragonborn was about to make. The dragonborn lands in the courtyard outside the Imperial headquarters demanding the acceptance of his claim, Tulius refuses and is devoured by Odahviing, at the site of many dragons no imperial soldiers make a move, Tulius's legate accepts the demands and the thalmor declare war on the once again unified empire, with the strength of dragons now as well opposing them. Elder Scrolls 6 is set.

Great video. I play as a female khajiit treasure hunter and she doesn't choose a side. She's just out there looking for unique weapons and armors, using her dragonborn powers to achieve those goals. She has seen the dossier on Ulfric and finds that to be very interesting information and is always prepared to pack up shop and move on to other regions if things get a bit too heated.

One thing is certain; All three words of Storm Call Shout are spoken in the courtyard of the Thalmor Embassy on every playthrough. Love me some barbequed Thalmor.

Perfect timing as I am a new player thank you for making this

Something I didn't hear mentioned is what Tullius says if you end the quest siding with the Stormcloaks. The specific phrasing escapes me at the moment but the jist is he heavily implies this is exactly what the Dominion wanted, and that this war was always about breaking up the empire to make it easier to conquer. On its own this can be seen as a case of guilting you into regretting your decision. But that only makes sense in a meta sense, if Tullius is aware he is part of a story. The more likely case is that he knew all along that the war against the Dominion wasn't over. How couldn't he? He's a senior Imperial General singularly tasked with bringing one of the Empire's strongest provinces back under control. The Blades may be gone but the Penitus Oculatus has taken their place as the Empire's intelligence branch. The Thalmor, their beliefs and their objectives have to have been at least hinted at over the course of the war and ensuing cold war that followed. They outright boast of Elven supremacy, and will likely have done as much during the war and during interrogations at the time. They refer to the Great War as the First War against the Empire (also likely well known to Tullius and the Penitus Oculatus.) Then there's the Synod. They were actively trying to get hold of artifacts of power independently of the Thalmor. Bringing the strongest artifacts in Tamriel together in the Imperial City; the heart of the Empire and the last place to fall in any upcoming war. All this tells me that the Empire is trying to consolidate their power quietly for the second war against the Dominion, and the signing of the White-Gold Concordat was just a placating gesture to buy them time. Combine that with the assassination of the Emperor (who was widely known to be relatively weak and disliked, especially after the war) by a member of the Elder Council and the fact he was neither surprised nor particularly saddened by it, and it paints another interesting image: His death is part of the plan. Dying of old age and handing the throne down to a successor he's chosen will only extend that legacy of weakness and unpopularity. But being assassinated by an unknown party would instead galvanize the Empire's citizens. It would make them angry, defensive, eager to strike back, because that's how faction mentality works. It's "us" and "them". By attacking the leader of the Empire and killing him, it's the highest form of hostility that can be committed against the group as a whole. Rather than weaken the empire, it would have everyone in an uproar, calling for the blood of the one who attacked them. It would *strengthen* the next Emperor's grip on the Throne. Collectively, these points paint a compelling picture for the Empire's next move. They're preparing for war, and it's likely going to blow up in the Thalmor's pointy snobby faces.

One thing you didn’t mention in the difference between the two victories, is if the stormcloaks win, the Thalmor agents are hunted down and executed, starting with ondolomar in Markarth as you can find his remains in the crypt of Markarth after the siege. But if the empire wins the Thalmor keep their presence in Skyrim, they don’t loosen their grip as you suggest, they still capture people to torture and kill.

I actually once role played a thalmor who goes through the main quest and setting up some "accounts" in solitude for the thalmor but after he found the dossier and then met and spoke to Esbern he then realized that everything he believed was flawed and so turned against the thalmor he realized thoe that tamriel would need to buy time to stand against summerset he was a key agent and knew much about their organization and so he joins the imperial legion tended to his capabilities as dragonborn turning that power against them once more preparing to make his own stand and remove those flaws he now sees

If I were a Nord, I saw Thalmor agents in major cities hanging out with pro-Imperial Jarls, and I heard about them kidnapping and murdering people for worshiping Talos with impunity, I would be very skeptical of the Empire's ability to stand up for the Thalmor. Giving your sworn enemy who you claim you are the best equipped to fight unfettered access to murder your own subjects would make me hate you and join up with the first guy who dedicates himself to driving you out. ESPECIALLY if I was a veteran who lost countless friends fighting the Thalmor. I like to say that I join with the Stormcloaks almost every playthrough because they didn't try to cut my head off for no reason, but the real reason is the continued Imperial cooperation with Thalmor agents that makes the decision easy for me. Tullius knows about the Thalmor torture dungeon and seems fine with maintaining it. How many Imperial agents are doing the same in Alinor? If I were a Nord, I would see that as an enormous betrayal from the faction that treats it as a given that they'll be able to defeat the enemy. I don't have to think Ulfric is perfect to follow him, just that his cause is righteous. In terms of Ulfric or the Stormcloaks being racist (especially towards the Dunmer), I wonder how many people who make this argument played Morrowind. I don't get insulted by every guard in Skyrim for being an outlander, and I don't see any Nord leaders sanctioning the slavery of other races. I also don't get a huge disposition penalty with elves for being an Argonian like I do in Oblivion. Even in Skyrim itself, the Thalmor say to my face that they are superior to the races of men. For the standards of Elder Scrolls -- both previous games and lore -- the racism of the Nords is pretty tame.

It's important to note that skyrim would almost definitely nor fight the thalmor alone if they beat the empire, they would most certainly ally the red guards and maybe even black marsh

I think Windhelm has the most establishment run and owned by Elves in all of Skyrim. If Ulfric Stormcloak is what some people accuse him to be I think all these shops and farms would have closed down after two decades of him in power and replaced with Nords only. Several of these establishments are even owned by Altmer/High Elf.

I always side with the stormcloaks for one simple reasons. The imperals try to chop my head off in the opening scene so fuck 'em

Another point about the empire is that Tullius himself state that they may very well start a new war with Thalmor. The empire simply is lickng there wounds and buying themselves time As for the the Thalmor there biggest interests is for the war to keep going (Delphine for all her faults is one of few people who actually understands this as she points it out after you have battled the dragon at Kynnesgrove.) So no matter which side you choose you will have made (albeit a minor ) struck to the Thalmor

I used to think the Empire were the good guys, but lots of terrible things happened after the war. *The Thalmor knew the Nords would revolt about a ban on Talos worship, and it anyway, making it an, "empire problem."* *-Conveniently-timed disappearances of Nords who owned critically important farms/mines, courtesy of Thalmor Justiciars who NEVER stopped killing, abducting, and imprisoning Nords.* *-Maven Blackbriar exploited this, now even Riften's guards are criminals, and she's a slumlord.* *-Thalmor used abducted Nords to ransom wealthy families into ratting out Talos worshippers.* *-Said locations were then purchased by Thalmor-controlled foreigners, like that d!lldo Nazeem.* *-Now the Thalmor control most of Skyrim's money, evidenced by those at Elenwen's party.* *-The Empire enforce Thalmor laws on Skyrim's people, arresting and killing those who resist, in the name of, "peace." Only to preserve a dying Empire, that likely won't survive another war.* *- Elenwen was there when they were about to execute Ulfric, his troops, and The Dragonborn hero without a trial, which is a MAJOR war crime, (yes i know, a fair trial would've meant complete anarchy, and all of Skyrim would've went up in arms, it still wasn't right.)* *-In the dossier Elenwen herself requested Ulfric's torturer to place his cell outside her office...* *The Thalmor also admit to arming the Stormcloacks with weapons and armor, hence, "indirect aid." *The Thalmor want the war to go on as long as possible, maximizing casualties on both sides.* Can't root for that, even if the Stormcloaks also committed war crimes, its not as bad as the above listed. I also used to think Ulfric was a huge bigot, but in other games, the Dark/High Elves were next-level bigots. So in a world where everyone is a bigot, NO ONE IS.

Man I really hate when that vague dossier on Ulfric is a sticking point in an argument. Is he an asset? Yes. Does that mean he is a willing and a knowing asset? No. The Thalmor will try direct contact with Ulfric in a worst case scenario doesn't necessarily mean they have before or have easy access to him. If anything, as an assumption, they would send a delegate/spy who isn't a High Elf and use Ulfric without him knowing it's the Thalmor. All of that controversy aside, let me leave you with a harsh perspective in favor of the Stormcloaks. Now put yourself in their shoes and think about what the Thalmor are "Allowed" to do. Your official reigning government is allowing a foreign power, to kidnap, kill, and torture your countrymen, neighbors, friends, family. Not just allowing, but openly allowing it and you're told to deal with it or be punished by the law. The law that's supposed to be protecting its citizens. There is no reality where something like that would every fly with me. Greater good or not I would never expect anyone to tolerate it, let alone for 30 years. All the talk of racism, war crimes and whatever else. Those are all problems to be dealt with after the immediate threat has been taken care of.

It's been said in this comment section already but for me, the Thalmor labeling Ulfric as an asset and intentionally releasing him after they captured him during the Great War is some pretty damning evidence. It's VERY obvious that the Aldmeri Dominion wants Ulfric to carry out a civil war so that Skyrim and the empire is further weakened. Siding with the Stormcloaks and slaughtering a bunch of imperials is exactly what the Thalmor want you to do. You're just their puppet. Keep the empire together, destroy the Thalmor, then deal with everything else.

There are several videos showing how strong the empire really is. Cyrodiil was very weak as the Great War started. Still recovering from the civil war after Chancellor Ocato's death. Titus Mede became Emperor and his son followed. Since Summerset became independent during the Oblivion Crisis, the Thalmor prepared for the Great War and used Daedric magic to conquer the Imperial City As the Great War began the Empire had some 12 weak Legions. After the Great War the Empire signed the White-Gold Concordate to win time. Humans have a higher birthrate than Altmer. And the Empire could fill its ranks significantly faster than the Aldmeri Dominion. The Aldmeri Dominion lost its entire main Army in the Battle of the Red Ring. In Vardenfell still is a strong Opposition against the Altmer Occupation.. And as the events of TES 5 take place, the Empire has a military strength of some 17 fully equipped and professionally trained Legions. Nearly all of them are stationed at the southern borders of Cyyrodiil. The Empire is clearly preparing for a Second Great War. The Imperial Legion in Skyrim is one single Legion, freshly recruited from the local population. The Empire sent Tullius with a few hundred soldiers to Skyrim to solve the crisis with a Nord solution under Legat Rikke. Meanwhile, south of the Pale Pass, the Empire has at least 1, maybe even 2 fully equipped and trained professional Legions for the case Tullius fails. So the Stormcloaks barely can handle one improvised Legion. Even if they win, the empire will intervene with 1 or even 2 Legions and crush the Separatists. The Empire respects Skyrim and the Nords as the second core province and the second source people of Imperial power beside Cyrodiil and the Nedic Imperials. Every Human Empire since Alessia was built on the Alliance of these 2 countries and peoples. Talos was the founder of the 3rd Empire. The Stormcloak rebellion is serving the Thalmor. Every step Ulfric made since he he was POW of the Thalmor played into their hands. The Markarth incident allowed the Thalmor to send their Justiciars to Skyrim. They can better and nearly openly spy on the preparations of the Empire for the Second Great War. Before Markarth the White-Gold Concordat was irrelevant for normal people. Nobody cared if somebody worshipped Talos or not all of this changed with Markarth. The deeper you get into the lore, the less you can side with the Stormcloaks. The Stormcloaks are good people, but dumb. The Loyalists are good people but smart.

I always end up siding with the ulfric for the simple fact that I’m getting ready to be killed by the empire for no reason other than wrong place wrong time

"Some say Ulfric desires to be king and nothing more, can they not see that his anger floats on a sea of tears?"

I was playing an Argonian rogue, so I was originally going to side with the Stormcloaks to cause some chaos. I went to Winterhold and was called a lizard and a dog, so I left and joined the Empire.

Growing up, I always chose the Stormcloaks because Talos awesome and I'm not gonna let some triangle lookin elf tell me what to do. However, as I got older, I found myself siding with the Imperials, and now I choose them almost every single time. The Empire doesn't like the Elves and have no intention in staying as their puppets in the long term. This is even hinted at by Tulius at the end of the war. One of my largest arguments against Ulfric, is what happens AFTER the Thalmor are defeated. In a situation where the Thalmor are finally pushed out, several independent nations are very likely to end up in conflict. With an Empire victory, the Thalmor being pushed out has much less likelihood of continued conflict. In addition, Ulfric's entire plan almost certainly hinges on Hammerfell being willing allies. The Empire does not require such uncertainties. The only thing it needs is time. Over time, the Empire will recover while the Thalmor continue to drain resources trying to enforce the treaty. In addition, under an Ulfric victory, all Imperial resources are going to be pulled out of Skyrim. Just because Hammerfell is victorious over the elves, does not mean Ulfric will be, especially considering how weakened Skyrim is going to be after such a divisive civil war. There is a very good chance that if the elves were to immediately attack Skyrim following an Ulfric victory, Skyrim may lose. Then, they would be under a certainly much more oppressive occupation of the elves directly. With an Empire victory, things will likely just return to normal prior to Ulfric's uprising. TLDR, my opinion is the Empire is better in the long run, while the Stormcloaks bring a huge amount of uncertainty for the future.

if you do the empire storyline, they specifically state they're trying to end the rebellion as quickly as possible in order to prepare their forces to overthrow the Thalmor. they just need Skyrim on their side in order to do that.

I don't think the "Ulfric is racist" argument holds water. You can play as any species and still join the Stormcloaks, joining as a non-Nord might raise an eyebrow from Galmar but that's about it. As for the Dunmer having to live in the Grey Quarter and Argonians being kept outside of Windhelm, we have to remember that these two peoples fought a very bloody race war against each other. The Dunmer are notorious for enslaving the Argonians (and Men BTW) and the Argonians committed mass murder against even innocent Dunmer and are the reason they're refugees in Skyrim in the first place. I can understand why the Nords wouldn't want to deal with foreigners crap when they have their own problems.

One thing not mentioned here is the Thalmor were reeling a bit too after their loss at the imperial capital and years of war and defeat against the red guards. The empire still posed the biggest obstacle going forward, and so their goal was to continue to weaken it from within. For that reason I’d say only the empire has a real chance of protecting Skyrim. If that wasn’t the case, the Thalmor wouldn’t be covertly supporting the stormcloaks.

Nords thinking nords are the best isn't racist. Nords hating everyone else for not being a Nord is racist. Only a small handful of nords are actually racist but almost every dunmer in Morrowind was racist. That's the difference.

This was an absolutely incredible video. I recently got into elder scrolls by starting in Skyrim and the lore has absolutely fascinated me, but watching this gave me a lot better insight on what’s going on and has developed an even higher interest in the lore of Skyrim so thank you!! 🙏

The fact that deciding who is right and everyone having a different opinion just shows what good writing this game has. Take notes Disney. You don't even need to make a game, just the story part of it.

As a Khajiit it is difficult to choose... on the one hand I see Khajiit are not trusted in these lands. With their caravans being forced to stay outside of the cities, much like real life travelers. Plus, the Aldemeri DID supposedly bring back the moons, which would have been seen as "saving the world" in the eyes of the Khajiit. Nords as a whole seem very distrusting of Khajiit... which may or may not be unfounded as Khajiit are indeed excellent thieves and crafty folk. The amount of hoops this one has to jump through to gain the trust of many Jarls and have a home is frustrating indeed, when one's brothers and sisters can not have the same.

You are not absolutely correct. I mean if I remember correct, Tullius at one point of the game whispers to the dragonborns ear something implying the Empire is not as loyal to Thalmor or The White Gold Concordat as it seems on the surface. Like General Tullius knew something about possibly up and coming second round of The Great War an ordinary Imperial grunt does not. I was left with the impression that at least General Tullius, perhaps even Emperor Titus Mede, is looking for an opportunity to strike a dagger in Thalmors back. (If they are wise, they will refrain from doing so while Skyrim Civil War is still ongoing).

Hey, I'm an American. I heard "Freedom" and my ears perked up. Thats why I went with the storm cloaks.

I would honestly love it if they released a title where we can fight against the dominion.

The Thalmor having the foresight and planning of Houseki no Kuni’s Aechmea is honestly chilling in how dreadful it is

The Imperials are in the wrong but for the right reasons and the Stormcloaks are in the right but for the wrong reasons.

You know, seeing as how we are.. you know, the *DRAGONBORN*, shouldn't we be the ones on the throne? Being of the dragon blood, we would have the most legitimate claim to it?

I remember as a kid, loving Star Wars and being greatly inspired by it, which made me always hate the Empire and side with the Stormcloaks. Growing up for me was finally realizing the Thalmor were the real enemy lmao

I have a few problems with this. First of all we can relatively reasonably assume the thalmor dont want world domination since they could easily seize parts of tamriel for themselves (morrowind mostly, which is so weak that they would stand no chance against the aldmeri dominion), and they could easily plot the high rock kingdoms against each other, but they dont do that and instead focus on hammerfell and secondarilly the empire. You also seem to have straight up ignored the part of the thalmor dossier that says that stormcloak victory should be also avoided. I mean I would say overall that the stormcloaks are better because they directly go against what the thalmor want (refering directly to the post MK made on the thalmor wanting to unmake the world).

As far as I've read, the main theory of the Thalmor's goals are to destroy the towers around Tamriel simultaneously to "unmake reality" and reclaim their former godhood that was stolen from them. A little explanation might be needed. The Aldmeri Dominion believe themselves to be the purest descendants of the Ehlnofey, who might be et'Ada (the Original Spirits, the kinda beings that the Nine Divines are) that decided to forgo their godly nature and remain on Nirn to populate it. The Aldmeri Dominion believe this to be a curse that shackles them to mortality, and want to return to their original states. The way they want to do this is by destroying the 8 towers that stabilise reality and the Aurbis so that they're "unmade" and can reclaim their divinity.

The Empire has had 26 years to do something, but they have cowered to the Thalmor. Most of their (human) officers below the rank of General would have been trained in a postwar period, and basically all of their enlisted personnel. On top of this, Cyrodiil is too easy to conquer to make a good seat of the Empire during times of war. The Imperial Isle is easy to defend, but the rest of it is weak. Skyrim, High Rock, and Hammerfell are all considerably easier for the natives to defend. The Illiac Bay would be a much more logical place for the seat of a human empire. Stormcloak Skyrim would result in High Rock being cut off from Cyrodiil, accessible only by ship from Anvil or over foreign land. This would, in time, confine the Empire entirely to Cyrodiil, and create a power vacuum across northwestern Tamriel. Such a vacuum could easily be filled by a new human alliance, a confederation of humans against the Aldmeri Dominion. Cyrodiil could join, but they would no longer be the seat of the the human empire, at the cost of the human empire no longer being able to control non-human lands (besides Orsinium and maybe Morrowind since they hate the Thalmor too).

To be honest they’re both “good “ guys . The Thalmor are the enemy , and only indirectly helping the Stormcloaks in order too weaken EVERYONE . The Thalmor have manipulated the factions against each other so well only a few in Skyrim are aware of the broader picture . I hope in the next scrolls we find out the factions joined up against the Thalmor

0:12 i think the rebels are the good guy but jjust fror clarence im going to continue

While I'm still not sure exactly where I fall on the Stormcloak vs Empire debate, I 100% agree with and endorse your point about taking characters you've made for one game or setting and trying them out in others. I've done the same thing, though probably on a smaller scale, with a number of games, and it's not just fun, it's also a good creative prompt. It helps prompt deeper thought about the character and how they might react or develop differently depending on the specifics of a setting or even one particular event. It's good advice.

The thing is, doesn't matter who you choose or win the war, the Thalmor are going to get some kind of benefit from it, even if the Stormcloacks win. They want for the war to continue, if the Imperials win, they are going to be able to brainwash all of skyrim and destroy their religious beliefs (Talos). Many say that Ulfric is racist against elves, depending, all races but nords, but he has a reason due to the suffering the elves brought to the nords in history.

Something I actually love about this questline is the very fact that it has the moral gray that cones with war that the people who fight in war are heroes fighting for their cause, it's stuff like this that makes me love a show like star war's the clone war's because noone is the bad guy they are just unknowing puppets of the sith

I found this great as one of my major campaigns as the Dragonborn is my total decimation of the Thalmor fort next to the vampire fortress Volkihar as well as the complete overrun of the Thalmor Embassy.

Two things, maybe a few more: 1. Tullius speaks about attacking the Thalmor after the war is finished, so those plans are also to be taken into account for the decision, not just as a hypothetical 2. The Nords are doing what the Redguards did, albeit a more violent separation from the empire, but still. If the Imperials could let go of Hammerfell, why now put up a fight against the Nords when they should be dedicating resources to push back the Thalmor? 3. I’ve always sided with stormcloaks, and always will. The forceful oppression of Skyrim will not go unpunished. The Thalmor are hunting Talos worshippers and slaughtering them like pigs, while the Empire says “eh just let it happen, we’ll do something about it later.” 4. Talos worship and Dovahkiin go hand in hand. Shor, Talos, Shezar, and Shezarines. Long story short, Shor is Shezar is Talos is you, all beings called Shezarines. You really gonna side with the people killing your fanbase? Not cool 5. The Thalmor want the war to continue because they can do their shady stuff in private with all of their enemies’ resources being focused on a war that hardly involves them. They know once the war is over, either way, they’ll be center stage again. 6. I’ve heard so many of my friends talk about the Ulfric interrogation in their arguments. I haven’t been up on the lore in half a decade but last I recall, the beliefs they instilled were what caused this war to explode, and they wanted it to happen to further weaken the Empire for more devious plans to come to fruition. Either way, it’s exactly what happens. Less Nords or less Imperials, it’s a win win, and on top of that they get a time cushion to concoct and enact more of their strategy for world domination. I’d assume the further contact bit is to give him strategic intel in case the empire is close to winning, just to perpetuate the war. They already can drop off intel on Tullius’s desk without raising suspicion so there’s no need for it to be in writing in the game. 7. I’ve seen other comments here but I’ll include it anyway; Ulfric is not the big mean racist you may think he is. He gave a section of his city to Dunmer refugees, the Argonians aren’t allowed in because they made the Refugees, and likely would create a conflict in his city. Any race (idk if altmer can lmao never played as one) can join his side and buy the house in Windhelm. Several elves have homes outside the Grey Quarter. He’d stop that process obviously if he truly was. He commends the player if they’re not a Nord for joining his side and fighting for the liberation of Skyrim, even though you’re not originally from Skyrim. I always play Khajiit, so I’ve heard it a million times. Everything I’ve witnessed Ulfric do has a cause. Distrust of altmer comes from the dominion. Argonian ban comes from Dunmer citizens’ protection. He constantly speaks about “Skyrim and her people” -very inclusive for a racist don’t ya think? Other Nords say “Skyrim is for the Nords” mid fight, which even then doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s a racial attack, more of a get-out-of-my-home-empire kind of jab. I think that’s everything but that’s why I side with the Stormcloaks, I could never be friendly-even remotely- with the Thalmor

16:56 You did say that they will get involved if either side wins, in that case, the instability of the empire taking over the unruly nords would help the thalmor. If the nords win then they don’t really have to worry about the imperials coming in and weakening them. Unless the thalmor turns them both against eachother anyways, then we’re all screwed.

I used to side with the Empire because I believed in their rhetoric about “we’re the only thing keeping the Thalmor out”. But in actuality they’re facilitating Thalmor activities, meanwhile the stormcloaks will arrest or execute Thalmor. The Empire is also on its last legs with Cyrodill. Meanwhile the Stormcloaks could theoretically forge a temporary alliance with Hammerfell and Morrowind against the aldmeri dominion, but even Skyrim itself would be a nightmare to conquer alone. Especially when you consider that the stormcloaks have the greatest weapon of all: the endgame Dragon born with all his factions, dragons and the ability to bend the will of mortals. Which granted them a decisive victory against the Empire and is a major threat that the Thalmor were not anticipating. And if I was Ulfric, I certainly would not allow the Aldmeri dominion or Cyrodill any time to recover. But the wise move in my opinion would be launching a counteroffensive with the Dovahkiin spearheading the attack. The Aldmeri dominion would get absolutely annihilated with dragons, stormcloaks and hammerfell warriors behind him. Perhaps they could enlist imperial citizens for their new Empire, while Ulfric is cast aside by the Dovahkiin.

I played a high elf that had defected. Any time I saw thalmor it was on sight

Redguards and Nords also have history of elven genocide. The redguards with the 'left-handed elves' of Yokuda, and the nords' ancestors, the atmorans, with the falmer/snow elves. Both also currently carry a great deal of discrimination against elves. So this point could also be the reason for the shots fired at those respective lands.

19:05 I always play as a Breton. Spell Resistance makes my characters OP.

I side with the stormcloaks for several reasons; one the empire tried to cut my head off without reason or a trial Two the war is over a principal. The land belongs to the natives and should be allowed to govern themselves as well as worship who they please.

Played a Dunmer Stormcloak once and, once Skyrim belonged to the Stormcloaks, using a mod that expands Thanehood, I was able to systematically and uncompromisingly arrest and imprison the Racists who wander the Grey Quarter and shout Slurs and insults during the night. It was.. interesting, specifically considering most Dunmer who live in the Grey Quarter openly support the empire, while most outside-of-skyrim Dunmer (excluding the House Hlaalu) despise the Empire. After being a fighter/warrior.. h-he became a fucking stealth archer after I got a Respec Mod..

Objectively it's the stormcloaks morally, but logistically a united empire has a much better chance of kicking the thalmor

I don't understand how The Empire was getting it's ass kicked in so much that they had to do the White Gold Concordat but Hammerfell by itself kicked the Dominion's ass and there are apparently similar stories elsewhere. Anyways, from what I understand, the whole civil war is a lot of 'people doing dumb things and being manipulated into doing dumb things' that starts it.

You've sold me on the Thalmor.

I don't think "direct contact remains a possibility" means what you think it means here. As I read it, direct contact has not been made since his initial capture and escape, but was and still is a thing the Thalmor are willing to do in extreme circumstances. That small point aside, this is a great video and I agree with you that, big-picture, siding with the Imperials is the better play to try to thwart Thalmor plans ❤

I think Bethesda is going to have the Stormcloaks win the Civil War. Just my feeling.

From an RP standpoint, during the Helgen attack the imperial soldiers and Tullius were trying to get everyone including prisoners to safety. The stormcloaks, especially Ulfric, tried to escape to save their own skins. I usually play characters than can put aside their personal grievances, including almost getting executed, aside if it means they can save civilians.

Imagine fighting under a banner only for you to get betrayed but the same people you fought with... Ulfric fought on the Great War, used his thu'um nobody asked or said anything about it... He used it in an 1 vs 1 DUEL and they named him murderer , traitor , barbarian ect... list keeps going on and on... Also he fought to liberate the reach, he's reward? Hand over to the Thalmor... He got tortured who knows how long or the intensity that he got tortured, he missed his father burrial he couldn't even mourn his own father imagine. He managed to escape and they welcomed him as a king of his kingdom without being ready to take such burden. He allowed the MOST RACIST RACE IN THE ENTIRE TAMRIEL inside his walls (Dunmer) , and also gave somewhat of a refuge to the argonians , ( Dunmer and Argonias are at odds with each other, who knows what would have happened if both of these races where put together?) The most wise decision to put the separately... Also argonias can breath underwater so they are invaluable workers for the docks and they can earn their living, Ulfric and the "Stormcloaks" Like everyone on Skyrim, hate Thalmor, not Altmer... there is 3 Altmer inside the city having bussiness, One stable , one Potions shop and one small (tent?) in the market area... If Ulfric or stormcloaks are recist... What all of these races doing in there in the first place... There is a war going on and Skyrim is in GREAT TURMOIL , normally in such situations nobody is go in or out but Ulfric welcomed them in. If you remember at the start of the game you are not allowed to go inside Whiterun because of a Dragon RUMOR. At the end of the day it doesn't matter who you support because both sides have flaws, but you can't just go around and give one side more flaws that it has, is just not possible to hate one side because of favouritism.

They were very clever leaving so much ambiguity around these matters. Here we are still talking about it.

the entire Stormcloak rebellion is just a roadblock preventing the people of Skyrim from uniting as one and regrouping for retaliation against the Thalmor; giving the Thalmor a false sense of "winning" (even if they plan for it) by siding with the imperials, puts Skyrim in a better state of unity as opposed to the Stormcloaks where there's all the toll of the war on top of instilling a new governmental regime (that is likely puppeteered even more than the empire already is) crush the rebellion before it's too late, so that Skyrim can spend more time preparing for the TRUE threat, the Thalmor

All hail to Ulfric! You are the High King! In your great honor we drink and we sing.

regarding your other nations being inspried to rebel, im not really sure which nations you mean? The only province left in the empire is high rock, other than cyrodiil of course

Every RPG game I play where I get to create my own character, I play the same character. A true neutral, self-serving man who will do whatever benefits him the most, whether it’s good or evil, legal or illegal.

Why is it that whenever people bring up Ulfric's dossier in the Thalmor embassy they always overlook that they state the if the war is to end because of outside factors getting involved that it must absolutely not be in the favor of the stormcloaks? Kinda puts a big hole in him being a Thalmor plant.

I actually made a Thalmor agent character once. His main things were heavy armor, summon swords, and strangulation, and then I realized I made Darth Vader.

Personally I side with the Stormcloaks, but either side that defeats the Thalmor is fine by me. My guess for canon is that both Ulfric and Tullius die in the end, and the Dragonborn unites the two to take back Cyrodiil and become a new emperor.

"So basically we have a faction A similar to the Third Reich but probably having goals of world domination via magic. We then have a faction B who simply accepts their terms and a faction C who doesn't and could form an alliance with a faction D who already has beaten up faction A. Therefore I'll side with faction B so the demands of faction A are met." wtf????

When you are a first timer you go straight to the Stormcloacks, but when you are more into Elder Scrolls you find yourself supporting the Empire, to the point you dont want to kill the emperor.

The Empire is definitely correct and Ulfric Stormcloak is the biggest puppet and buffoon in all of Tamriel. The Thalmor actually are afraid of the Nords of Skyrim as combatants. So the treaty deliberately included the banning of Talos thing specifically to foment dissent in Skyrim. And they funded Ulfric to be a magnet to galvanize that dissent. The more they can chop up The Empire, the better the chances of the Aldmeri Dominion to finish the job of conquering Tamriel. They have schemes like that in Hammerfell (still fighting there while the Empire is not fighting) and Elsweyr (the moons scheme). An independent Skyrim has no chance straight up against the Aldmeri Dominion 1v1 and the chances of The Empire without Skyrim against the Dominion is much worse. Divide and conquer. As a general, Ulfric should know better.

even my chaotic evil high elf hates the thalmor

17:45 You're clearly not hanging out with the right people. Skyrim for the Nords, kill heathen elves on sight, Talos is King.

Skyrim civil war bell curve hits me like a truck, First time playing I sided with stormcloaks because of unga bunga fantasy vikings swinging axes for freedom Then I become Imperial because for unity of mankind with Ulfric instigating the war from Markarth incident, inviting thalmors to Skyrim, until I finally realized that Thalmors does purges towards the people who disobeyed them, from what happened Malborn and Ondolemar would commit persecution to randomly purge anyone, I think Skyrim is best to be left under herself because after the war the exhausted legions is under rebuilding and handling dragons while Thalmors would take opportunity to purge the people of Skyrim and it's horrifying, and my decision to choose stormcloaks aren't including the terrible imperial government, sidequests, past history of how nords defeated the elves and their resistance against magic, Hammerfell alliance, and crazy stuff related to Talos divinity itself and Altmer desperation on their diminishing power otherwise I'll be a new elder scrolls youtuber to talk about this stuff

Nords and Redguards forming alliance? Ivory and Ebony living in perfect harmony.

just started playing a week ago and i'm so obsessed. it took me a few days just to figure out what the hell was going on and alchemy etc. it's getting more fun the less "i care" about finishing the main quest and just having fun. It's definitely very overwhelming at the beginning but worth it. only level 13 but slowly getting there

You forgot to mention that the Empire helped hammerfell a lot in driving out the thalmor

Do you get to the cloud district very often?

TL;DR Stormchads stay winning

stormcloaks are the good guys, they defend their home against invading forces, imperial or the pesky elves, they dont belong there

Ulfric being a puppet of the thalmor makes sense if you think of how Ulfric was reluctant to get the jagged crown and that the imperials were there somehow before the storm cloaks when the location was supposed to be a secret

Pretty much the way I see it is, with what the Empire pulled with the white gold concordant, it doesn’t really have the right to govern over its member states anymore. It forsook its founding monarch and deity, and quite honestly doesn’t really give a shit about its member states other than Cyrodiil. It outright abandoned Hammerfell, and lets its arch nemesis, the Thalmor, free rein in Skyrim to persecute the Nords. Each of the member states of the Empire deserves a government that will look out for their best interests. As far as Skyrim being “For the Nords”, I’d say that it is for the Nords, but only in the following capacity. It is for the Nords in the same way that each province is for their respective people, in that the government should focus on preserving the culture and way of life of their respective province. You can be a Breton in Skyrim, but just remember that they aren’t very fond of magic in Skyrim, so whoa, watch the magic. Likewise if you’re a Nord, don’t go shitting bricks if you see someone in public doing magic. As far as the united front against the Thalmor is concerned, there’s nothing that says there can’t be some kind of war time alliance between the nations of men. However, each of the provinces really does need its own government out for its own peoples’ interest. Culturally speaking, let the nations of Man be for Man, let the nations of Mer be for Mer, and the nations of the beastman be for beastmen.

1: Ulfric isnt a racist, if he was then there wouldnt be 4 Altmer living in and around Windhelm and he woulda kicked the lazy-ass Dunmer outta the ghetto they created themselves 2: Ulfric is an unkowing asset yes, but him knowingly helping the Thalmor? nuh uh. Also if the Stormcloaks win then the Thalmor are screwed. 3: if the Empire wins then they'd have to transfer some of their men from Cyrodill to Skyrim to replace the fallen ones making Cyrodill even weaker than it already is 4: if Cyrodill is ever attacked then all those legions in Skyrim to 'protect it' would be called to defend Cyrodill. Siding with the Empire you arent siding with Skyrim, you're siding with Cyrodill. As Oblivion was my first TES game Cyrodill is important to me but not important enough so as that other nations should be abandoned to protect it instead 5: Skyrim would be nigh impossible for the Thalmor to conquer, at least 3 holds (Pale, Winterhold and Eastmarch) are freezing cold to the point where a bunch of pampered elves from the warm climates of Summerset Isles would die of hypothermia right quick, Morrowind is nigh uninhabitable thanks to the eruption of Red Mountain and their aint no way in hell the Redguards would allow them access into their lands for obvious reason and there is no way the Thalmor could attack Skyrim via the Sea of Ghosts as that place is so hazardous even the most ardent sailers darent traverse it. The reason the Thalmor did so well against Cyrodill is that Cyrodill doesnt have very hazardous weather like Skyrim does to worry about. 6: the Empire has been infiltrated by the Thalmor for over 20 years since the Great War. You honestly think they havent been using their spy network which is vastly superior to the Penitus Oculatus to gain info on Imperial forces? 7: the Mede Empire are piggybacking off what remains of the Septim Empire and making a mockery of it in the process. The different races were happy to be a part of the Septim Empire as the Septim Empire was a powerhouse, best be a part of that than not wheras the Mede Empire.....yikes. Talk about a pathetic joke of a government. 8: Dissenment within the Elder Council itself as one of them tasks you with assassinating Titus Mede the Incompetent 9: The Empire disbanding the MVP's of Oblivion, the Blades? yeah another black mark on the Mede Empires record. 10: the fact the Empire lost the entirety of Hammerfell and half of Skyrim shows that yeah, other provinces are seeing just how weak the Empire is and how they are NOT the ones to count on fighting the AD. 11: not exactly a big fan of the whole denying of peoples free speech and religion attitude the Empire has with their elven masters 12: the Empire promising Ulfric free worship of Talos if he did their dirty work for them in Markarth only for the same Imperial troops that could've killed the Forsworn only showed up to arrest Ulfric? yeah, yet another black mark. A government that backtracks on its 'promises' cannot be trusted. If the Empire knew they wouldnt be able to make the agreement to allow free worship then the troops that arrested Ulfric shoulda been the ones to clear out Markarth instead 13: Elisif would be a downright incompetent High Queen and make Skyrim be the laughing stock of Tamriel with how many idiotic policies she would enact as she acts like nothing more than a naïve teenager and would be an even worse ruler than Titus and thats saying something 14: having female Al Capone a.k.a Maven Blackbriar as Jarl of Riften? no thanks. And having a lazy asswipe like Siddgeir as Jarl of Falkreath? yeah, dude is too incompetant to deserve any power 15: anyone with a functioning pair of eyes sees that the Empire is inspired by the Roman Empire and last I checked, Rome fell....just sayin. 16: would highly suggest watching this vid which shows just how screwed the Empire is even if they win the civil war: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-q5nUiAaiuz4.html&ab_channel=FudgeMuppet