WHO BETRAYS ELIZABETH BENNET to Lady Catherine de Bourgh? | Jane Austen PRIDE AND PREJUDICE analysis 

It has to be Mr Collins - Charlotte astute as she is about Eliza/Darcy may have something to her husband and he being an idiot just blurbs it.

@@PriyankitaPant Also he might be terrificly delighted about the prospect of being related to the esteemed Lady Catherine by his cousin's marriage to her nephew.

There is always the possibility that Charlotte habitually shared her mother's letters with Mr Collins. If so it wouldn't then be possible for her to hold back this bit of gossip, even if she wanted to - and I do think that if Charlotte's loyalties were in conflict, as a dutiful wife she would always put her husband ahead of Lizzy. But yes, it would be Mr Collins who would actually do the deed and tell Lady Catherine. Also, while I certainly think John Sutherland was wrong in his description of Charlotte's motives, I wouldn't grudge (under-appreciated, clever) Charlotte a bit of 'Ha! I knew it' gloating!

I always felt like it must have done the servant round and maid it's way to her lady's maid/ companion

I think Charlotte did do it but she knew exactly what would happen and was doing it to help both her and Lizzie out but that said she does seem surprised and weighing up if this a good thing or not and decides it.

Ikr? He blabbed everything about everyone to Lady Catherine, things that were absolutely none of her business. Imagine if he thought that Darcy and Elizabeth were secretly engaged when Lady Catherine was counting on Darcy marrying her own daughter! I'm sure he would see it as his duty to tell Lady Catherine.

@@edennis8578 Plus there was no reason for Mr. Collins to disclose Lydia's elopement to the de Bourghs. It's not like they live close by or are really in the same social circles. It's a gross violation of family privacy, and I read someone said it would also violate pastoral confidentiality as it existed back in the day.

Same, since he's such a simpering little man and how proud he is of his acquaintanceship with her, I wouldn't be surprised if she was using him to hear all of the gossips from the town.

@@SmidBeach Mr Collins is the type who doesn't seem to really care for pastoral confidentiality, especially since he believes himself to be of some importance because of his acquaintanceship with Lady De Bourgh.

Agreed.

Yes. There are no suggestions of animosity in the novel, it's hard to understand where he got the idea from, I mean apart from misogyny

My thoughts exactly! My only answer on how he got to that choice is misogyny.

Perhaps just getting a book published with an attention-grabbing title and premise is Sutherland's true motive. A true misogynist would hardly deign to dip his nose in an Austen novel.

I didn’t want to think about john sutherland as a misogynist since I don’t know the dude and haven’t read his book to understand how he came to this very questionable conclusion but has he read the same book we did😅 I mean how could he interpret the book, Charlotte or Jane in that way. Its an insult to Charlotte’s character and by extension to all women 🤦🏾‍♀️

I absolutely love John Sutherland's 'literary puzzle' books - they are great fun, thought-provoking and a good way to get people to start thinking critically about literature. I think he was wrong in this instance, but please don't dismiss him completely on that account.

Sutherland's interpretation is the typical misogynistic view of female behavior - all negative.

I fully agree! It was clear to me that MR Collins was the conveyer of such information and conjectures.

It must have been a very short book. 😁

Charlotte was unique

@@susanscott8653 Perfect comment!

Men...

I always thought it was him because he's such a kiss ass

Exactly. He's a man who likes showing off how much he knows, and who better to impress than his Lady Catherine? No malicious intent.

Not only a pompous kiss ass but he also saw himself as Lizzys savior and superior. He told her as much when she refused his proposal. That she would not likely ever get such an offer again (her being the inevitable broke spinster with no prospects). He thought he could walk into her house and have his pick of the litter. He saw himself as Elisabeth’s superior and he never got over her rejection. And now come to find out she might be mistress of Pemberly and married into Lady Kathryns family?! There was no good-natured gossip coming out of his mouth he for sure thought Lady Catherine would put a stop to the supposed wedding. Meanwhile Lady Lucas was Lizzys BFF and loved her so why would she want to stop her friends happiness? She was never an emotional spiteful person to begin with she’s just very pragmatic she wouldn’t be jealous of Elizabeth not only coming up in the world as far as name and money but she would also will be happy that her friend was able to marry for love. I don’t even think she cared that much about what she could get out of Elizabeth marriage to Darcy after all Collins is still going to inherit Elizabeth’s childhood home when her father dies.

Yes Mr. Collins.

He seems nosy

Yes, hoisted by her own petard! Wonderful irony!

@@DrOctaviaCox No.

That would be Austen’s style wouldn’t it? I can absolutely see Mr Collins bringing it up in an attempt to betray Elizabeth and Charlotte seizing the opportunity, never going against her husband in public but realizing that the news would make Lady Catherine react rashly.

It was Mr. COLLINS without a doubt. Charlotte I believe could not stop Mr. Collina. Nor would she want to. Charlotte had nobler intentions for Lizzy to marry Mr. Darcy. But slain she would not have wanted Lady Catherine to be angry at either her or Mr. Collins if they had known but not warned her. Charlotte is easily the shrewdest character in the novel and may have 2 to 3 reasons for desiring Mr. Darcy and Elizabeth to marry. The noblest being concerned for Elizabeth's happiness and the least motive her and Mr. Collins advantage. Charlotte is one of my favorite characters of Jane Austen.

That would be a delightful bit of reverse psychology

Plus it also says she goes to Lucas lodge after Darcy and Elizabeth get engaged because she’s excited about the match and doesn’t want to hear about Collins and lady Catherine’s anger about the engagaement so??

Yes it does seem like a bizarre idea - Charlotte and Elizabeth have a good friendship throughout the book and Charlotte confides in her on occasions. To me it seems it's clear that it's Mr Collins his letter basically says as much, I don't really see it as a betrayal though - just him doing what he does and sharing everything he knows with his patroness.

@@tomriley5790 Yeah I can just imagine Charlotte after they've left being like "Wow wouldn't Darcy and Elizabeth make a great couple" and then Mr. Collins later with Lady Catherine freaking out and repeating that sentiment because he ran out of things to say

I think this idea is probably less a product of the book, and moreso of the fact that women are so often pitted against each other, both in literature and real life, that to him their friendship could not be sincere

Men 🤷‍♀️

That was precisely my response. But when you think about it Charlotte is the savvy one. Collins is too self absorbed and dense.

I simply assumed Charlotte would have heard the rumor and repeated it to Mr Collins in everyday conversation out of disbelief "can you believe these ridiculous rumors!?" I have no doubt though that Mr Collins would be the one to whisper to lady Catherine "you'll never believe the slanderous rumors going around about your nephew" where it then escalates to lady Catherine freaking out

@@InThisEssayIWill... oh he ran right over there as soon as he heard the news. Such an odious character.

I totally agree..Mr Collins is always trying to engratiate himself to Lady Catherine. He is a small person always trying to make himself more important.

@@mindakahn9964 but whenever he has a piece of news, he has nothing better to do than to run over to Lady Catherine and blab about it. I mean, why oh WHY did he have to run straight to her and tell her all about the trouble with Lydia?! And him, a minister!! I suppose he never read Martin Luther's explanations of the Ten Commandments! ;-)

Divide and conquer.

No one betrayed anyone. Lady Catherine panicked when she heard about Darcy arranging the hastened marriage between Lydia and Wickham. Only someone who had an obligation to the family (as in arrangement) would’ve induced Darcy to intervene- in her eyes. She rushed off to Lizzy, because she knew she had no influence over her nephew

Yup. Charlotte wasn't resentful. She was always practical. Not romantic. She was kind and loving and smart. She knew who she married and why she married him. She did better than she thought. Her husband was a respectable land owner who she could control. And he adored her. You almost can't ask for more. (DO you know how hard it is to get a man to do what you say? LOL) He might have been tiring to us. She just needed to keep encouraging him to take walks and look after the ducks. Charlotte was going to have a good life. And He was keep moving up in society. Just like her father. People often forget that Charlotte was out there making gaining. And she was pregnant.

@@firebrandsgirl Best thing Mr. Collins ever did in his life is marry Charlotte. Looks like he's going to be very successful in spite of himself.

@@calags : yes, since she knew a lot about budgeting and earning a living by intelligent management, from her own home life with her parents (before marrying Mr. Collins). Charlotte would be such a great asset to her husband, when Mr. Collins does inherit, after Mr. Bennett’s demise. I would not be surprised if with Charlotte ‘helping’ Mr. Collins run that estate, turns it into an even better living for them. If they have a son, he would most likely be a successful heir.

I never got that impression either. The tyrannosaurus arms some of these people have.

Misogyny. That’s the only thing I can think. Someone has spun a fantasy in their head of a bitter, scheming woman who would betray her friend for no reason. To think that after reading the text, which never hints at anything like that, implies to me that he was predisposed to think a woman capable of it.

If anything, it is Lizzy who questions their friendship due to Charlotte's decision to marry Mr Collins. Charlotte is steadfast in maintaining their friendship. Charlotte is clearly portrayed as a conservative figure who makes the best of her situation. She is not an envious person who believes that she is due more.

@@susie2251 Projection? Maybe Sutherland is a bitter, envious, viperous personality himself, so he imputes these same motives to others.

Exactly. I would also add that it is not rare to hear men expressing their firm belief no such thing as a real sincere friendship between two females can ever exist in this world. The author of this extravagant suggestion of Charlotte being maliciously scheming against her friend's prospective marriage must be one of those men. What an idea, indeed! " Singular", - as a certain Mr. Hurst ( who preferred cards to books) exclaimed 😉

Your comment taught me a new word. Thank you.

EXACTLY 👏

Reverse Uno! 😂😂

Best thing about it is that Charlotte gets her revenge on Lady Catherine in a way that will leave Her Ladyship forever unaware she’d been used like a puppet!

Charlotte doesn't seem to have cared about having to be polite to rude people. Otherwise, she wouldn't have married Mr. Collins. He was constantly talking about Lady Catherine long before Lizzie turned him down.

@@athag1 Actually, Charlotte owes Lady Catherine a debt of gratitude for ordering Mr. Collins to get married. Lady Catherine is nosy and interfering, but she did a lot for Mr. & Mrs. Collins.

I had a nice chuckle at your description of Mr.Collins as a "snitch." 😁

lol same. That’s definitely the impression you get from the BBC portrayal as well. Collins gets points from Lady Catherine and gets a bit of revenge on Lizzy. I had no idea there were other theories, let alone Charlotte as the snitch. Idk maybe Sutherland thought he was being clever

That snitch ended up making everybody happy (except Lady Catherine.) Good on 'em.

Instead, Lady CdB became so enraged at the idea, that Willie & Charlotte had to get outta Dodge & hide out at Charlotte's parents' for a while! 😂

Congratulations. Apt assessment at 13, brownie points for the snitch. I think he was also aching for a chance to get back on Elizabeth for rejecting his proposal. He could scarcely contain his glee when Lydia ran off with Wickham. For a man of God, Collins is the most vindictive and spiteful soul in the book. Review the double wedding at the end of the HBO miniseries. Mr. Collins stands in the pew with a very sour look on his face. Charlotte stands beside him watching his expression with a worried look of her own. Elizabeth wounded his vanity. He has tried to make her declare that was a mistake. But here she is rising far above him in rank, marrying into a family that Collins has been groveling to for lo these many years. That's a whopping pill for him to swallow and I hope he chokes on it.

Good point. Amen. Amen. Lady C is worse than a mother-in-law. She demands full control of everyone else's life. Charlotte's husband grovels to the woman. Her wish is his command. Charlotte will eventually move to Longbourne. Is that far enough away? Will Darcy's marriage to Charlotte's friend somehow help break Charlotte's chains? It is one thing to marry a buffoon, but quite another to have some other woman mandate how you fold his socks.

"My dear, your tea is ready. I made it especially for you."

She wouldn't do that until she had the heir and the spare.

He knows immediately (and tells everyone) about Lydia running off. Which is how the great countess knows when yelling at Elizabeth. I just assumed he'd done the same with that.

Agreed!

The combination of Georgiana’s report of Eliza’s visit to Pemberley (which Austen’s audience at the time would’ve assumed without being told) and the Collins’ information about Darcy arranging Lydia’s marriage would’ve been seen by Lady Catherine, or anyone else, as an obvious attachment. I never thought it was any type of betrayal-Darcy is a grown man of independent wealth and can make his own decisions. If anything, Charlotte may have been thrilled to take Lady C down a peg.

I also have no doubt he reads her letters dude was willing to get gossip anyway he can. Plus he was always willing to get involved in things that are none of his business.

Mr. Collins is a gossip who doesnt realize that he is a gossip. Charlotte could have told her husband and Mr Collins could have relayed the information to Lady Catherine

True, she does not pit them against each other, but she certainly contrasts them. Elinor Dashwood: calm, intellectual, lady-like etc., vs Lucy Steele: vulgar, shallow, uneducated; Fanny Price being the complete opposite of Mary Crawford, etc. But she does it with most of the men as well.

Have you ever read Austen? It's nothing if not full of women treating other women with utter contempt.

Well, she kind of does with Ms. Bingly, but she's just awful anyways.

Idk I feel like there isn't a single book where women aren't competing in some way over a man or over status, besides Northanger Abbey.

Good point.

I do not think Charlotte wed Collins to rescue Elizabeth but for her own advantage. She knew full well Elizabeth could never accept him. Charlotte never aspired to romantic love, but merely a comfortable home and a reasonably decent man who would not abuse her. What Charlotte did fear was loneliness. Elizabeth was her dearest friend. She knew Elizabeth would feel Charlotte had married beneath her and this was true in many respects. In this, Elizabeth had underestimated Charlotte, not realizing how skillfully Charlotte would be able to navigate and compartmentalize her life with Collins. Charlotte manages her husband but they are not friends and she defers to Lady Catherine only to please him. That is a lonely life for Charlotte no matter how well she thrives in solitude. Charlotte needs Elizabeth nearly as much as Elizabeth needs Jane. Charlotte needs the occasional sense of perfect connection with another human being and with all the rest she is content.

You’re still failing to connect the dots between how Mr. Collins would have received such information, as it was not generally known that Darcy had an interest in Elizabeth and several people who knew them would have overlooked the extent of his interest given the difference in “birth by rank”

​@@valkyriesardo278I wished that Charlotte would have children so that she wouldn't have to be solitary all of the time. Of course that would mean replicating Mr Collins, but maybe the children would turn out better than the father.

​@@AkireMaruI thought it was clear that the report must have come from the Lucases, to Charlotte, to Mr Collins, to Lady Catherine.

She was captain of the ship for like have the novel. Eventually Jane signs on as first mate! haha

It was to Charlotte's advantage for Lizzie to marry Darcy. She made it clear enough what she thought about the advantages of connection to Darcy were. She never had a chance with him, but she could still benefit from the connection through her friend, Lizzie. As long as Lady Catherine doesn't know about her opinion, which she was unlikely to reveal, there isn't a downside.

I just can not even imagine that Charlotte would have acted in any derogatory manner towards Elizabeth. She invited her to make a visit and they really cared about each other!!

What's the rest of that sentence? (It's been awhile since I read the book.)

@@harringt100 it’s in chapter 60, in the same paragraph that Lady Catherine finds out about Lizzie’s and Darcy’s engagement

@@harringt100 "Lady Catherine had been rendered so exceedingly angry by the contents of her nephew's letter [telling her of his engagement to Elizabeth], that Charlotte, really rejoicing in the match, was anxoius to get away till the storm was blown over." The text goes on to say that Elizabeth meets with her friend "with sincere pleasure" which also hardly fits with a nasty Charlotte.

It's an absurd idea, as your quotation makes clear. Charlotte is also eager to believe Mr. Darcy in love with Elizabeth earlier in the Novel. When Elizabeth is visiting in Kent prior to Darcy's first proposal, we have the following quotes: “'What can be the meaning of this?” said Charlotte, as soon as he was gone. “My dear Eliza, he must be in love with you, or he would never have called on us in this familiar way.' But when Elizabeth told of his silence, it did not seem very likely, even to Charlotte’s wishes, to be the case;" or "Mrs. Collins knew not what to make of him. Colonel Fitzwilliam’s occasionally laughing at his stupidity proved that he was generally different, which her own knowledge of him could not have told her; and as she would have liked to believe this change the effect of love, and the object of that love her friend Eliza, she set herself seriously to work to find it out:"

Yes, exactly. My first thought was of this line at the end of the book. It states perfectly clear that Charlotte is for the match, not against it.

Charlotte's web, no less 🙃

@@saliadee2564 Delightful

Thank you Phil - glad you enjoyed it!

I suspect John Sutherland of being a closet misogynist.

@@AveryMilieu On this evidence alone ? Let’s not be diverted by a hunt for villainy in the real world. Not here. The man could just be mistaken.

True. This reminds me of the discussion between Jane and Elizabeth. They debate whether they should reveal Wickham's misdeeds. They both decide against it though it would make some juicy gossip. The ladies concluded the information could help nobody but could hurt Wickham to no good purpose. Collins seems to be the one character who most enjoys spreading gossip and bad news.

I agree. Mr. Collins doesn't come off so much malicious as someone who lives to spill the tea. Dude LOVES drama, as long as it's happening to other people.

Oh I think there was a tiny bit of spite there. Lizzie rejected him, remember.

I think that's an interesting question; is Mr. Collins spiteful? I tend to think not. Foolishly self-important and vain, pompous, and all that, but he lacks the understanding of other people to be spiteful. To be spiteful you need to do something with the deliberate understanding of how that will impact that other person. Mr. Collins as character is rather described as someone completely lacking that awareness of other people. Or of how other people might see him. So yes, I do believe he would tell Lady Catherine any rumour he might think she would want to hear without any thought to the consequences other than Lady Catherine would be pleased with him for doing so. And that would be his only concern. Pleasing Lady Catherine is his main concern in life after all.

Love this interpretation

Exactly, I agree. Charlotte is pragmatic. And let's face it, given that she is shrewd and intelligent, and has been used to the company of Lizzy, having to spend so much time with Lady Catherine must grate. I pleasingly read Charlotte's comment that Lady Catherine is "a most attentive neighbour" as one of the driest observations in the whole novel.

I too thought it was Maria Lucas who started the rumor. If she didn't notice Elizabeth and Darcy dancing, she probably heard about it from Charlotte. And she was present when Charlotte thanked Elizabeth for being the reason that Darcy visited her house with his cousin. And then she must have heard (from Kitty) that Darcy had accompanied Bingley to call on the Bennets when he hadn't visited the Bennets before. And she probably noticed Darcy hanging around while Elizabeth poured coffee at the dinner the following Tuesday. So, she communicated the latest news to Charlotte, who told her husband, who told Lady Catherine. I can't say I thought very much about the reasons why Charlotte told her husband or why her husband told Lady Catherine. It just seemed rather natural.

I always assumed it was Maria, too, but after hearing this analysis, here's what I think the chain was: (1) While staying with the Collinses, Maria picks up on some of Charlotte's suspicions RE Darcy and Elizabeth. (2) once Bingley and Darcy return to Longbourn, Maria muses to her mother or other siblings about what she'd heard/observed (3) Sir William overhears this, or Lady Lucas mentions it to him. (4) Sir William writes to Mr. Collins, exaggerating/expanding on the idea (5) Mr. Collins rushes to inform Lady Catherine. I like to think Charlotte would encourage him telling Lady Catherine for her own schemes (as she really does seem to want Elizabeth to marry well, plus she likes the idea of connecting to someone of greater patronage), but I also think it's probable Mr. Collins rushed to tell Lady Catherine before Charlotte knew anything about it, simply because that's the kind of gossipy, brown-noser he is!

I am not certain about the role of Maria. She was still quite young (16, I believe), and in my eyes still a bit naive and impressionable. I always assumed lady Lucas (who likes to gossip and does this with her neighbours, as well as with mrs. Bennet - mentioned in the 2nd chapter I believe, by the introduction of the Lucases), writing to her daughter and mr Collins, and them talking about the letter at the diner table. Sir William Lucas is also possible as the writer of the letter, but he did seem to be less of a gossiping person. He is all about his dignity after all. However, ever before Lizzies stay in Kent Charlotte did notice a partiality. (The evening at Lucas Lodge, where Lizzie sings, she mentions something like it.) Also, I believe it was the same occasion that sir William Lucas proposes Lizzie and mr Darcy dance together, which Lizzie refuses and mr Darcy accepts, despite his dislike for dancing. (Every savage can dance.) So, in Meryton there were probably more who also had noticed this partiality, just like Charlotte had. It is entirely possible that they already thought the marriage a possibility after Janes engagement to mr Bingley the first time. (I mean that they thought it probably already before the Netherfield Ball, but thought it would happen some time after Janes engagement.) For me, this line of observing and thinking is still a bit much for Maria. She can have mentioned about them seeing mr Darcy in Kent regularly, but this would have happened in all innocence. A bit like how I would assume Kitty would mention this.

As a woman, I do freely admit the female mind can resemble a plate of spaghetti. It can be a tangle. Charlotte does have one reason to resent Elizabeth, for her friend's revulsion to Charlotte's marriage. However, she does not. Charlotte is more afraid her marriage will lose her Elizabeth's friendship as a consequence of lost respect. The two women mend the breach when Elizabeth comes to visit. Charlotte manages to reassure Elizabeth that the marriage was a most deliberate choice with acceptable compromise in which she is most content.

But Elizabeth never wanted Collins.

@@julieletford5695 Doesn't that just support my conclusion?

​@@julieletford5695 I don't think Charlotte would have done it if she thought Lizzie wanted him. That would have been malicious.

She knew Elizabeth didn’t want him but he gave her the chance of a life other than that of a poor relation. Marriage to him would give her financial security and status. She would end up being the mistress of the Bennett’s home

@kathy Turner. Relying on memory - Charlotte had no time to go after Mr Collins. It seems he grabbed her immediately after Lizzie rejected him. I remember being shocked at the speed of his turn-around.

@@belindamay8063 One of the other Bennett daughters sees Charlotte and relays the news that Elizabeth rejected the proposal. Charlotte suggests inviting him to the Lucas home for dinner so people can have some distance. The daughter approves and says something like "Yes, yes, take him away and feed him." I think that encounter started the wheels turning in Charlotte's mind. She saw to it he was fed and then wed.

@Michael W Perry. That is so true. It is the very mark of a great artist. We have been intrigued by Shakespeare’s inventions for 400 years.

Ha!

@@DrOctaviaCox The idea that Charlotte betrayed Lizzie is really disturbing to me because it undermines one of the most compelling parts of P&P and pretty much all of Austen's novels - the value of the love and friendship among the main women of the story and how it gets them through the difficulties of female life. Sutherland's theory undervalues the sisterly love between Lizzie and Jane and the friendship love between Lizzie and Charlotte (and as well by implication the sisterly love between Jane Austen and her sister Cassandra). But I think there is little to no evidence to support a theory in which Charlotte betrays Lizzie. In addition to being at odds with what Lady C and Mr Collins actually say in the book, it is simply not consistent with Charlotte's character and their friendship as portrayed in the book.

I, for one, am thoroughly embarrassed that this had not occurred to me! Not that she was particularly in SEARCH of a man so like her father, but she would understand her own ample ability to manage a personality such as his because she'd already spent a lifetime doing so.

Yes! I've observed this before.

That had never occurred to me, either, but now it's pointed out (added to the detail that Mr. Collins was also showing Sir William around the local countryside when he stayed in Kent), I can just imagine their conversation on those excursions. Every other sentence would be, "There's something just like that at Rosings" and "There's a building exactly like that near St. James's Court". They each seem to live in quite a "limited" world in some ways, but each man has his own pet subject that he can "show off" about slightly; Sir William must know that Mr. Collins is unlikely to have been anywhere like St. James' Court and Mr. Collins will know that Sir William doesn't have the experience of having a noble patroness to help him on his way!

Totally agree - this was a true aha moment for me while watching.

It’s true. While Collins was rejected by Lizzie, as far as Charlotte is concerned, she came out of the whole situation remarkably well. She could very well have been grateful to Lizzie for passing on Mr. Collins, since how many offers would Charlotte be likely to receive at 26 and beyond?

Kind of like Batman, with his "No matter what happens, I win" plans.

Her way of not having to be with her husband all the time made me giggle.

@@johnbutler4631 Yes, hahaha. Elizabeth would never be able to bear a marriage like that.

Many thanks for your kind words, whiteforestfox. I'm always very pleased to help people to think even more about Austen!

And then Charlotte's husband will inherit Longbourn, so if anything the Bennetts would resent the Collins'. There's nothing for Charlotte to be bitter about when it comes to the Bennetts.

I’m wondering if that author read the same book I did!

That's actually a very good way to look at it, given the way people ignore anyone they think of as a "servant" even today. IE (big generalization not directed at anyone specifically): Your Starbucks barista probably knows more about you than your family does.

I've never thought of this but I kind of love this idea

That seems a remarkably shrewd headcanon.

You're assuming Lady Catherine would bother listening much to her lady's maid - it would probably strike her as inappropriate and presumptuous for her maid to actually talk to her! She probably talks a lot to her maid - who spends most of her time silently listening and not getting a chance to say a word.

@@serinad9434 So you've never seen Gosford Park? Written by Julian Fellowes, a Baron and peer in the House of Lords, GP portrays the position of lady's maid to include repeating gossip to her employer. I'm sure Lady Catherine insisted on hearing all the latest dish, considering that she thought everyone's business was her business, from the lowliest cupboard. Also, don't forget that it was well known that servants listen in, which is why the Bennett girls are careful about what is said in front of their servants, who would then spread it other households' servants, who would then tell their employers. Charlotte and Mr. Collins had servants, too; everyone did who wasn't totally destitute themselves. There would at least be a cook and a housekeeper for a living as prosperous as that one. Being so close to Rosings, the servants certainly would be trading juicy tidbits. Who knows who all knew that Darcy visited Elizabeth when she was there alone? Scandalous!

And also to entertain Lady Catherine, which I think is part of his job.

@@cathy4139 exactly! He's her jester 🙂

Thank you, Margaret.

They already knew Lady Catherine liked gossip & interfering in people's private lives. It was probably obvious that whatever you told the local minister wasn't private.

I wonder if Charlotte might not even be a bit worried about Lizzy. Mr. Collins, when he is rejected, tells her that with all her beauty, there is no certainty that she will ever receive another offer of marriage. Of course it's vulgar of him to say this to her (basically telling her she should be grateful to him for offering to marry her!) but he's not actually wrong. She has very little money, and that cuts down her prospects a lot. Charlotte might secretly fear that Lizzy could end up they way SHE seemed destined to do - an impoverished old maid. In her own way, she's looking out for Elizabeth, trying to scout out a possible match with Col. Fitzwilliam, if not Darcy himself.

The narrator tells us that Edward supposes that “the vanity of the one had been so worked on by the flattery of the other as to lead by degrees to all the rest.” Later, in Chapter 50, we learn that Robert sought out Lucy in her lodgings “merely to persuade her to give up the engagement” to Edward. Lucy gave Robert “hoped that his eloquence would convince her in TIME,” but more visits would be needed. “Some doubts always lingered in her mind when they parted, which could only be removed by another half-hour’s discourse with himself.” Eventually they ceased talking of Edward and “came gradually to talk only of Robert, a subject on which he had always more to say than any other, and in which she soon betrayed an interest even equal to his own; and, in short, it became speedily evident to both that he had entirely supplanted his brother. He was very proud of his conquest, proud of tricking Edward, and very proud of marrying privately without his mother’s consent.” Since Mrs. Ferrars the Mother had already irrevocably settled everything on Robert, he had nothing to lose. It sounds as if they lived quite happily together from the rest of the narrative concerning them. In essence, Edward’s initial supposition was spot on. Does that help?

@@ruthfeiertag Thanks Ruth, I obviously need to read the book again, it's been so long! Still would love a Dr Cox video though, any excuse!

I think it would be great for Dr. Cox to do an exposition on why Edward doesn't/can't break his engagement to Lucy, even though he's come to like Elinor better. I could give a list of why, ranging from Edward's moral character to the marital and economic expectations of the time, but the analysis would carry more weight coming from an English Lit don at Oxford. :-)

Catherine, I’m sure Dr. Cox has a great deal she could add. I know I merely provided a veneer. And I love to listen to Dr. Cox. I’d tune in to hear her explicate the phone book. Ruth

That's one of the easiest ones to understand. Lucy Steele wanted to marry into a good family, but she mostly wanted to marry money. After Edward was disinherited, she easily transferred her affections to Robert since it was the money and the family she was attracted to more than Edward himself. Robert was not used to the kind of attention Lucy started giving him (in the guise of seeking help), and rescuing a damsel in distress is another powerful ego stroke, so he could hardly keep himself from falling for her, and didn't realize she was manipulating him.

I don't know about that 🤔. For me, the word "reports" almost automatically means that someone else reported on the situation. I mean, it's weird to report on one's own behaviour 😂😂. Then again, aybe he let something slip and Lady Catherine took it upon herself to make some inquiries 🤷🏽‍♀️

Cetainly the film with Laurence Olivier and Greer Garson picks up on the idea of Darcy being the one to tell his aunt - AND being the one to send her to sound out Elizabeth.

This would be another possibility.

@@ruthfeiertag that's such a romantic interpretation, and allows them to have a peaceful life with inlaws haha

@@ruthfeiertag maybe, but that film strays more from the text than any other made. The end was such a shock to me I nearly choked.

Lady Catherine liked gossip and probably had multiple sources from servants to overheard conversations. There were probably any number of tattle tales that took her information to earn her favor.

Thanks!

yes- that bit was brilliant insight. Charlotte's well aware, I guess, of Mr. Bennet's philosphy, or perhaps his sport: to laugh at his neighbors, and for his family to be laughed at in turn. Now that Dr. Cox has mentioned it, it seems only too likely that Charlotte's management skills were learned from her mother, and not just raising poultry and running a household.

@Vorkosigrri. I think that Charlotte’s long friendship with Elizabeth shows a mutual respect and understanding that is a credit to both of them.

I'd agree that Charlotte is a good friend to *Elizabeth*, but she's not flawless. In Mr. Collins's infamous letter regarding Lydia, we tend to stop in shock at the point where he says that Lydia's DEATH would have been a blessing compared to the current situation. But the next sentence reads, "And it is the more to be lamented, because there is reason to suppose, *as my dear Charlotte informs me*, that this licentiousness of behaviour in your daughter has proceeded from a faulty degree of indulgence; though, at the same time, for the consolation of yourself and Mrs. Bennet, I am inclined to think that her own disposition must be naturally bad..." So Charlotte has been dishing the dirt on the Bennets, telling her husband about the sort of stuff Lydia's been up to, and that the parents are too lazy to do anything about it. Coincidentally, this is exactly the sort of thing Elizabeth warns her father about, to no avail. But it's one thing to have these discussions within the family, and another to know that the whole neighbourhood is saying it!

Mr. Collins is already a member of the "disgraced" family. That's why he is inheriting Longbourne. Typical foolishness that he doesn't get the obvious.

@@Wanda711 Everyone knew about Lydia's behavior. She made a spectacle of herself at every social event.

@@robinlillian9471 That’s a really good point!

Luv ur comments. Funny but spot on. Well done.

My pleasure Vikiirna. Thanks for watching. And I'm glad you've not been put off literary analysis completely!

In addition to tact, Mr. Collins lacks any shred of self-awareness, compassion or kindness. He repackages his obsession with social status as supposedly kind to his inferiors, but it is clearly not, and is not seen as such by those receiving such "generosity" from him, except the few (e.g., Mary) who are as blindered as he is.

@@Cat_Woods I think you're passing a too harsh judgment there. 1. Mary is still a teenager, one who has to work very hard for every little bit of acknowledgement while at the same time she's left to acquire every bit of knowledge all on her own without any guidance. As the third daughter, she must have been a disappointment for her parents pretty much from the start and even more so when it became clear that she would turn out rather plain looking. I would say, that her over-confident behaviour is more a sign of her being overly conscious of her shortcomings, but hey, better to get negative attention than none at all. 2. I also cannot agree with you on Mr Collins. From the little we know of his background we can deduce that his upbringing was far from ideal. Between the lines we are told that he grew up without a mother, and directly that his father had been uneducated and miserly. Now being a miser often goes d'accord with being emotionally cold and this being the case here is a reasonable and likely explanation for Collins' fixation on Lady Catherine and his extreme eagerness to please her and earn her approval. She could well be the first person he's known, to take an interest in him. Also, with his father having been so stingy, Collins likely never ventured out into society much, which explains his painfully awkward and downright silly behaviour. We're also told, that he was unable to form any useful connections while he was at university, so he, too, was left to his own devices with little to no input from outside. Yes, he is somewhat conceited, but I think we underestimate him if we think him to be stupid. Were he stupid, he wouldn't have made it this far, not with his background. Also, the thing is that generosity and kindness towards others are things learned in early childhood when we first get to realise that we're not the centre of the universe, but with a miserly father and no mother, that would likely not have been the case with Mr Collins. Yes, part of being kind and generous is down to nature, but not all of it. That, of course would speak for your opinion, yet do I think Mr Collins is unkind? I seriously cannot tell, because the novel doesn't give us one single instance where he interacts with his parishioners upon we could base any fair judgement. As to him being supposedly hurtful, sure, two instances come to mind: a) him telling Elizabeth she might never receive another offer of marriage and b) him writing in his letter that it would have been a blessing in comparison (to Lydia running away with Wickham) had she died. The thing is, that in both cases, whether we like it or not, he's right if we keep the context in mind. At the time of his proposal, Elizabeth doesn't have any other acceptable suitors and even she knows, that Wickham cannot and will not marry her. With the Bennetts situation, the girls chances of finding suitable husband are woefully slim. Saying as much is not being nasty, it's the unpleasant truth that should not have been said, consequently it's tactless. In regards to Lydia better having died, it has to be seen in the context of what comes immediately before this statement, and that is that Lydia's sisters will unfortunately be tainted by association, leaving them pretty much without any prospects (which were slim to begin with) and consequently to a life in poverty once their father dies. Had Lydia died, on the other hand, this association wouldn't have been made and their situation would've been as it had before anything happened to Lydia and with that much better. Again, his statement is one that unfortunately is true, yet never should've been put in writing due to its sheer tactlessness. And we as readers have to be careful to judge this statement in hindsight, for of course we know how the tale ends, but at the time Collins wrote this, he had a point. Anyway, that either thing was said with the intention to hurt, I doubt. I think there is little in the book to indicate as much. Thoughtless and tactless and seeking approval, yes, definitely, and quite frankly, that already makes him annoying enough. Also yes, to an extent he's also blinded and thinks too highly of himself, but perhaps, while neither are very likable traits, he has some right to be proud of his achievements. If we look at his upbringing again, as said before, he actually got quite far and all on his own, so he cannot be without intelligence. Plus, with having married Charlotte, I think at the end of the book, he's the character with the most potential to evolve and grow as the years pass, which unfortunately we're not getting to see. In the novel, he is, after all, only 25 years old. And to finish this comment off with probably my most controversial opinion: while Collins appears to be a rather comical character on first glance, as silly and conceited as he comes across, he is one of the more tragic characters from P&P, if not the most tragic one. Just think what could have become of him, had he been raised in an educated and loving family. At least now he's got Charlotte, and though she's got her work cut out for her, it's not a hopeless case.

Could it be Mr Collins is taking revenge on Lizzie for declining his proposal? Or is he just a sycophant to Lady Catherine?

@@barbaralippincott-lonsky8761 Personally, I'd say it's the latter. - I don't see much reason for Collins wanting to get back at Lizzy at this point in the story: 1) he will still inherit Longbourn, so there's no financial loss he could be angry over, it's not as of Lizzy would've brought him a big dowry or anything; 2) he is married to Charlotte with whom he seems quite happy, they do get on pretty well, and they've got their first child on the way; 3) he never was in love with Lizzy to begin with and only asked her because she was the second oldest daughter of Mr Bennet, whose heir he is (he would've asked Jane had he not been told she's taken!), in short, the proposal had been made out of obligation not because of any affection; and last but not least, 4) with Lizzy's rejection, he was able to stay out of the whole Lydia/Wickham-affair and isn't personally associated with it. With that said, he could still harbour some injured pride, however, on the other hand, over a year has passed since he proposed to Elizabeth and things are going well for him... No, I think it really was just him carrying every bit of info to Lady Catherine as he always seems to do. Thinking about it, throughout the book it often is pretty difficult to determine, when his opinions are his own or those of Lady Catherine to the point, where we are left to wonder whether he has any opinions of his own. With that, we cannot even be sure if he did disapprove of the match or, which could also be possible, was initially happy for his cousin only to then recall that Anne de Bourgh was to be Mr Darcy's bride and consequently going straight to Lady Catherine to tell her the news and see how she would react and adjust , at least his outward opinion, accordingly. For a secondary character featuring so prominent in the book and being so memorable, he remains oddly obscure. As said before, I don't think he's a nasty person, nor do I perceive him as being particularly stupid, however, he's tactless, socially awkward, blinded, seeking attention and he's also lacking a spine. But again, he did choose his wife well and there is the good possibility for him to change for the better.

@@barbaralippincott-lonsky8761 I think the case here is not "or", but "and". Both things happen at the same time. No doubt his injured pride (as described in the previous comment) takes a part in his running to Lady Catherine's ears to spread the gossip.