@@Tony4You rather people adapted her to make the story of what they wanted to be reflected in their culture have a fabricated religious source... They made her the wife for reasons nowadays misogynistic, because that fit their narrative. Similarly then around 1500, when Church stopped being cool, people were using her as symbol of rebellion and necessary change... Or maybe worse, to still assert dominance of men over women to add onto it. And then SMT has a hate boner against Law routes so they make her purely sympathetic- This recontextualisation isn't anything new in cultures frankly, having happened since dawn of time. Yet it is still quite interesting to see and observe this process over the years as people use often folk stories to propagate their worldviews and altering meanings. Lol, Lilith kinda is like Pandora in that sense - starting out as "Woman Evil" to become something more as time went by.
I could imagine that before that, he would be like that one guy who lives in a neighboring apartment to a couple who seem to get along great, but he'll also frequently hear them arguing so loudly that he just awkwardly drinks his coffee in silence each morning trying to ignore it.
A pretty woman incentivizing people to read and gather knowledge? I immediately loved her in SMT4 lol. Although those books transformed some people into demons. Oh well, nobody's perfect.
In Rome do as the Romans. In battlefield soldiers turn themselves into killing machines to survive. Becoming demon is necessary to survive and live in hell, unless you have the capacity of getting yourself out or have the oblivion of seeing who you really are.
Just a little bit of harmless manipulation and corruption for their own good, even if they forever turn into demons condemned to burn in hell forever, might as well get some information.
I just wanted to say that these videos are spot on production wise my man, simple editing, clear speech, the preceeding mythology research leading into the games depictions is paced well and it leads to a satisfying and informative video format, and it's nicely concise too 10-20 minutes is a good length for this type of content rather than a 30-40 minute ramble.
That really means a lot, thank you. I try my best to get the most amount of information in a digestible video as possible. I am so happy to make them and even happier that people enjoy them
This video makes me want Senoy, Sansenoy, and Sangelof as new Law angels in the next SMT. Maybe give them a quest where you help them encounter Lilith.
lillith in smt4 is interesting, There's a lot of parallels between the garden of Eden and the Kingdom of Mikado, and the literature is really just the fordidden fruit. And much like how in the bible, the Garden of Eden is closed off and all who enter that have sin in their hearts die, anyone who enters the Kingdom of Mikado that is considered unlean also dies.
Really glad this video came out while I was theming a villain in my campaign after her and now I don’t have to do the research I was planning to cause it came to me
If I had to guess why Lilith isn’t specifically mentioned in the Bible as the first woman created by God it was probably to have the people believe that God is a perfect being and that no creation that he made was ever a mistake but it’s hard to know if Lilith even existed and was more a character created by those who were infatuated with figures rebelling against the “tyrannical” God.
I could be wrong, but I notice Lilith has a pompadour hairstyle, and those are associated with rebellion in Japan. It fits with her as a rebellious figure.
Modern iterations of the Bible leave her unmentioned, as the writings said that Eve was the first woman. I could easily call Lilith the mother of sex demons(incubi and succubi), but in my eyes she, not Satan encouraged Adam and Eve to consume the forbidden fruit and get banished from Eden in order to win back the first man. The attempt failed, and Lilith married Samael. She's sorta like the female alternative to Asmodeus, am I right?
Her goal in SMT IV seems a lot more... benevolent than I would imagine. I mean, teaching others to think for themselves isn't a bad thing, but given how Mikado is run...
Well considering the effect of her books transforms the person into a demon that then becomes violent and that she knows this will happen, I wouldn't place too much stock in her supposed benevolent motive. (Especially considering her later plans for the reactor dooms Tokyo to remain demon infested)
I think it makes sense in SMT4 with her mythology bc she essentially rebelled against what God wanted from her in order to be the person she so desired, even when being cursed for doing so. After her punishment she denied the offer to return in order to stand by her ideals. I think that's the sort of angle they were taking with SMT4 personally
@@Tony4You what about 100 kids a day? that seems pretty extreme in the machiavellian direction, especially when that carries over to her ring of gaia followers as well in game.
Always remember kids: Don't accept fruit offered to you by a crazy lady. Or a serpent, for that matter. Never mind, maybe it's better just to only eat veggies and avoid fruit altogether...
Another thing I've always noticed about her design (the first one you showed) is that her hair always gave off some glam-rock vibes to me, and glam-rock is steeped in defying traditional gender roles, which also relates to her story.
Strangely enough the story of Lillth was meant to explain the error in Genesis but in reality adds another error as God states that Eve will be lower in status to Adam after the eating of the apple. It wouldn't make sense if Eve was made to be inferior and then God having to restate that, especially since Genesis does not state anything about Eve being different other than she being female.
Interesting point, interpretations of these events vary so wildly no one can say the correct circumstances. I have my own theories as to the events of those times, but I wanted to keep the video concise. Thanks for the comment!
Amazing video. The flow from Lilith’s mythical and religious origin, including various interpretations, to her roles in the SMT series is impeccable. Keep up the good work!
Its interesting how despite Lilith being a pretty recurrent Demoness... Adam and Eve barely even appear. And you know, if some artistic liberties were taken... I would like a Megaten game that has a similar Adam And Eve-plot to SMT 1, but far more in-depth. And with this twist that, I dont know how everyone would react to. That being, that in this hypothetical game. Lilith and Eve are actually one and the same.
They tend to shy away from specific characters in Abrahamic religions though the odd one gets in. Adam in Persona, Messiah demon, the SMT 9 characters. A straight up biblical SMT game would be awesome though
@@Tony4You My best guess as to why such a game has not been made is because of the aparent Hate Boner Atlus has for christianity. Why else would YHVH always be the main bad guy, and the angels being complete assholes?
@@Tony4You Yeah I think their are limits to who they will put in, like I doubt they will directly put in Jesus unless under a different name like Messian or the one Zombie in Devil Summoner who is most likely meant to be him.
Thank you for this video! I've waited a long time for this topic and I'm so glad that it finally showed up! Genesis 1:26-27 can also be explained as follows: "our image" refers to God (the father) talking about this to God (the Holy Spirit) and God (Jesus, the son). God spoke about the day that he created mankind, which was the 5th day. He created Adam and Eve on this day. In Genesis 2 it mentions how Adam was created, but it doesn't specify that he was created AFTER the 5th day. Therefore, you can interpret it as God created mankind, i.e. Adam and eventually Eve on the 5th day. Chapter 2 just goes into more detail about mankind's creation in Chapter 2.
She lives upon to the name. Her reputation proceeds her, animals and the supernatural are affected in her presence all the characters who already know of her hide when she comes through.
It might be weird to say, but I love Lilith and the interpretation that she essentially tried to help Eve. That’s why I named my own daughter Lilith, in the hopes that’s she’s strong and independent but compassionate towards others
Lilith really is just a big mood. This has nothing to do with the biblical legend herself but in one of my favorite games VA-11 HALL-A, Lilith is a more or less an Original AI/Collective source of knowledge and memory storage that the newer race of AIs called "Lilim" are all based off of. I just find it neat that even somewhere in a cyberpunk setting that Lilith's name alone is used to bring about great change. Lilim themselves are humanoid robots that sometimes question the nature of life itself and what even being conscious even means. Hearing this video definitely reminded me of how cool she is in SMT and how seeing her name in various media still continues to promote her as a kinda badass or important name to attach to things that defy norms and established order, for good or bad.
Lore from SMT1 revealed that she wants demons and humans to co-existed, so with what I heard, her morality is a bit more nuance in that while she can be extremely jealous with dangerous tendency, she does genuinely want the protagonist to be happy. I think that while she's in Chaos alignment, her goal is pretty noble and maybe view negative aspect of Chaos as side-effect for what she wants.
I've always felt that Lilith's design was a little too simple...idk, I feel like a human twisted into a demon for having the audacity to speak the Lord's true name would have a bit more flair. At the same time, SMT4 Cockroach Lilith is a bit too much. Maybe something in-between those two, or even a more avian design based on her Lilitu origins would be nice to see.
She disobeyed. Thus she received judgement. Judgement is receiving something you deserve. If God was to enact judgement on all humanity, then all humans would fall dead. "For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God" "For the wage of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life."
Her design is deliberately very human -like to keep in line with he human transformations with a hint of the demonic. Something more involved would have been nice, but I like it
Lillit in religion: f u god, I am NO simp. Lillit in smt 1: kazuya, I want u and I to become the new adam and eve. Me: can you make up your mind? My terrible joke not withstanding, I can't help but understand lillit's rebellion, I mean god wanted to make her a the first simp, and I'm sitting here to myself "why would god do something so NOT GOOD?"A woman not wanting to be submissive to a man makes perfect sense, and this is coming from me......A GUY.
Nearly most of the demon designs in IV are disturbing or outright weird. From what I've heard the Japanese fanbase especially disklikes most of the designs except for a few like Koga Saburo and Minotaur, so don''t go expecting to see those designs again.
Another great lore video as usual Tony! It's just so interesting how you can compare other polytheistic religions to the Abrahamic ones and still find so many different supernatural "creatures", and the different interpretation/stories surrounding them. Looking forward to more!
the whole "Lilith being created as lesser" for how interesting is against scripture. In Genesis its never stated that there is a hierarchy between man and woman, some suggesting that Eve being taken from Adam's ribs signifies that she is his equal. I do understand however that when the Midrash in Lilith has been written women were conceived as inferior, resulting in the strange feminist spin Lilith took.
I think it could be that in Genesis, the line "he created them in his image, man and woman," I think that this line was meant to be out of chronology, more of a poetic line than describing the chronology of events. That is how I understand why it comes before mentioning Eve's creation. I think anyone can agree that not all verses are literal or even in order.
Ever since I heard of Lilith, I've found her fascinating. There are elements of female wrath but I see with how with she can be a symbol of feminism with going agaisnt patriarchy traditionalism. I am planning to write some stories with her but she's a supporting character as Lucifer's wife and Empress of Hell but her role will be as an ally and friend to my main protagonist.
She is a symbol held up as woman power in recent times, in lore she has a lot of female empowerment aspects. Her being less explicitly evil in SMT is a really interesting interpretation
I just got all the megaten games on 3ds from eshop sale, now I am debating which to play (not 4 since I just did). You don't specifically love strange journey redux but I only have that one, or Overclocked.
Nice choices to pick the games up! Sadly only having access to REDUX is something I hear a lot, and while I'm not the biggest fan of that remake, if you have no choice it's still a good game. Devil Survivor 1 and 2 though are both very fun and narratively interesting games. Really you can't go wrong with any, aside from Soul Hackers, I really dislike that one
“God created man and woman in Genesis 1, but that couldn’t possibly be true, because he didn’t create woman until Genesis 2.” Uh, actually, I gotta correct you, my man. God’s creations are listed in their chronological order in Genesis 1 and then Genesis 2 goes into detail as to why God created woman and how he created her on the 6th day, after Adam (who was also created on the 6th day). Genesis 2:4-5 actually says, “4 These are the generations [accounts] of the heavens and the earth when they were created, IN THE DAY THAT THE LORD GOD MADE THE EARTH AND HEAVENS (which is day one of creation). 5 When no bush of the field was yet in the land and no small plant of the field had yet sprang up-for the Lord God had not caused it to rain on the land, and THERE WAS NO MAN TO WORK THE GROUND (meaning, still, that the Bible is saying that man was not yet present on the first day of creation)…” So, the statement that God didn’t create man until Genesis 2 is wrong because you’re lining up the story chronologically based on the placement of the verses, which was a mistake because a lot of the Bible isn’t chronologically told in this way. You missed the actual chronological list of God’s creations in Genesis 1, which describes the true timeline of creation. All Genesis 1 does is make a list, and all Genesis 2 does is zoom in on day 6, when we’re talking about the creation of Adam and Eve. So, we can see that, while Genesis 2 details the creation of man and woman *after* the list of creation in Genesis 1, Adam and Eve were *still* created on the 6th day in both chapters. Genesis 2 says man and woman were absent at the creation of the heavens and the earth, so God decided to create them last (again, on day 6) to care for everything that was created at the start. There is no contradiction there, my dude, sorry! Good video, anyway, love your channel 👍
Yes I understand me saying that could be construed as it being my own personal belief, sorry for the confusion. I was setting up the midrash and Alphabet of Ben Sirach with that statement. I simply meant to imply people used that seeming contradiction to create works inspired by the bible. Thanks for the comment, and I think you are totally correct
Your videos are so interesting, it always catches my attention since SMT is one of my favourite franchises of all times. Btw wher can I find that image of the schwatzvelt that you always use in your videos, it's so cool
Even though demons IRL may not be real, there are sometimes where I deadass have wanted to start a demon ritual at home just to smash a Lilim/Lilith. 🥴👌🥵😩🙏
I think you would like the short graphic novel series "The Book of Lost Souls". It is heavily influenced by Christian mythology and adds its own spin to things. Two that come to mind are God and the devil being referred to as the 'two' and whether Adam and Eve could understand the consequence of eating the fruit. It is because of this series that I tried my own hand at the Lilith myth, where her rebellion is spurred by her being the first created and therefore seeing Adam as her child, instead of her mate. God is depicted as a ball of light, but this first disobedience, this first sin, causes a dark spot to form and eventually encompass half of the sphere. By the way, I really enjoy your videos and am astounded by the level of research you must do when making them.
The more I look into these Abrahamic stories the more I come to the conclusion that God is supposed to be a representation of a household, family and civilization while demonhood is a representation of barbarism and primal instincts. It is why man fluctuates between the two because they are both part of human nature. In this light I have come to appreciate these stories as they make way more sense when viewed in this context.
Smt games aren’t known for having interesting main villains so correct me if I’m wrong when i say that Lilith in Smt vengeance seems to be the first villain in a mainline game that doesn’t just pop up out of nowhere in the last 5 hours of the game
I've read somewhere that explained the reason why Lilith went back to Eden is that she secretly loved Adam and wanted to be with him, but when she saw Eve she got extremely jealous and tempted her to eat the forbidden fruit.
I don't know how to feel about that. Lilith being a wild and untethered person is a stronger image of her. A woman who refused to bend knee to her "superior", Adam. Also, if anything I like the idea that she returns, sees another woman who is submissive to her former husband, and wanting to liberate her as well, giving her the fruit to try and give her the same freedom
@@treyatkinson7564 Honestly her freedom, was literal punishment, to me Lillith just wants to make other women miserable just like her in the false pretense of liberation, literally like feminism. Also if God says that Adam is superior, he is superior, she "resisting" that might as well be a child throwing a temper tantrum, which she does, Lillith is the story of someone behemently wanting to be and make others miserable in the false pretense of freedom.
@@Tony4You You also have to remember that IV was released back when Doi wasnt the main demon artist yet, and as a result. All of the new demons in IV were designed by Guest Artists. Most of which worked on Tokusatsu media like Kamen Rider.
What if Whitney Houston was the first woman? She would be every woman, making her statement true, but then no other women would be made, as per her statement that she's every woman.
