Hey I realize you made this video a few weeks ago but I'm commenting on this comment that you pinned of your own that way you can check out my comment I left on the video if you didn't get the notification for a really good theory that I have about the third Queen. Let me know what you think after you read it
No sansa that is not the third Queen... Go out to the comments and look for the one that I just put up a few minutes ago cuz I just watched the video again and I had a theory pop-up Sansa is definitely not the third Queen it's another one that's really beautiful that's going to surprise cersei so much and might put her over the edge completely without knowing who her replacement is LOL
Perhaps a crazy thought, but I always thought Petyr was alluding to him placing a crown on Sansa's head, and hailing her as the new Queen of the North, Vale, and possibly Riverlands. It's been awhile since I read the books though, so I might need to do a reread.
I think the Third Queen Littlefinger is thinking of is Myrcella. I think that if he doesn't know about Quentyn, or Young Griff, then Dorne pushing Myrcella's claim as their puppet via Trystane is their most logical play for power.
Olenna makes no sense to me because a war of three queens implies that these three queens fight against each other the same way war of five kings was (Robb and Renly werent really enemies but not allies either). But Olenna and Margery are literally on the same side. I think it's Sansa, we know for sure he is planning to claim the North in her name which makes her a queen. It also explains why he is so happy about it
There could actually be truth in the grooming. Or rather what is actually there in the books. When Sansa asks Petyr who the third one is (since there are two official queens we/he can assume Sansa's confusion nog bring about those) he answers her by giving her... lemons. Which is a symbol for Dorne. The third queen probably isn't a queen yet but soon to be. Princess Arianne Martel is both the heir to Dorne and also on her way to a marriage-pact with young Griff. We also knows that Arianne is brash, head-strong and self-indulgent. In short, what Petyr would consider a perfect ruler in his absence. My main reason to not beliving the third one to be the Queen of Thorns is that it doesn't give an interesting energy to the picture. In the end, Margery and Olenna are more or less the same side which makes it less of a triad and more of a duality (Lannister vs. Tyrell). Which would mean a lot less reason for Petyr to feel as clever as he obviously does by his observatlon.
Of the Five Kings in the Wot5K, there were four Queens that could be considered “left” after the war: Margarey, Selyse, Cersei, and Jeyne. While Margarey is imprisoned, Cersei’s power has been completely stripped in the eyes of everyone who is unaware of Robert Strong or the wildfire caches, and her removal is why Littlefinger believes there are three Queens left. Sansa’s confusion is meant to highlight Littlefinger wanting to support either Stannis’s side or prop up Jeyne’s potential child with Robb.
So hey...3 Queens in chess is a SUPER rare happening. This is a play on 3 queens in chess. And hey-the merling King is LF's ship...it is the SAME ship he picks Sansa up in when she flees KL. I tried to listen to hear if you mention it but i didn't catch it, sorry if I missed it. Bt that is HIS ship and as mentioned several times in text, LF basically owns Gulltown. So here is my proposal...my thinking on it. Euron, in the Forsaken chapter, changes his outfits 3 times when talking to Aeron. The time that lapses during this chapter is MONTHS. Those outfits Euron changed into? They are the outfits of women. 3 Queens from Westerosi History. Mad Dany Lothston WAS a Riverlander Queen. Tywin isn't lying or wrong when he says Harrenhall is an ANCIENT seat of kings..and it was also for Queens. Fire and Blood plays into it a lot. The 3 Queens LF is talking about IS Euron. OR Little Finger is talking about Barbrey Dustin-he might be saying something with double meaning. But if it isn't Euron then one of the Queens IS going to be Barbey Dustin as the Barrows Queen. I always thought it was Barbrey until I realized WHO all Euron was dressing up as in that chapter. Now I'm not so sure. BUT if it is NOT Euron one of the Queens is gona be Barbrey Dustin. Her and LF do have past ties and current ones in text. If Sansa is going to be a Queen, she will be a Riverlands Queen and her seat will be Harrenhall. As LF's natural born legit daughter, Sansa is heir to Harrenhall-interesting considering that HER mom is a Whent/Lothston. If Euron isn't all 3 Queens, he is likely going to be at least one of them. Barbrey, Sansa and Euron-one of these Queens is Euron somehow-likely thru Cersei. The Tyrell's are done-by the end of Forsaken the Iron Born have taken the Reach. It has fallen; Euron says only old women are left in Oldtown now etc. Euron is heading for Dorne/KL when Forsaken leaves off. He's coming and LF knows it. No matter what though, the 3 Queens is a nod to chess that we should pick up on as a clue to it. It is some kind of trick or stalemate in play coming up.
Euron is possessed by the Nightqueen. Being tied to the mast is an allusion to The Odyssey and the Sirens. So he counts as a queen in that respect, though Petyr is probably talking about his actual daughter Sansa, GRRM is hinting at Nightqueen.
As for Barbary, she and Brandon married at the tree no witnesses hence the loophole the maesters used to annul the marriage. She’s the pregnant girl we see in Bran’s time rewind vision in the black water. Her son, Ramsey, is the actual trueborn heir of Winterfell as the pink letter says. Petyr and Dustin helped write it.
It’s Sansa the third queen is Sansa We know from that chapter Littlefinger was planning on marrying Sansa to Harry the heir who has connections the current top dogs of the riverlands and Sansa is both a Stark and a Tully having a claim on both Winterfell and Riverrun if the marriage is successful Sansa would have control of 3 kingdoms which would make her a very powerful and influential woman The queen of thorns being the 3rd queen doesn’t make sense as she’s already aligned with Margery…Littlefinger said we’re going to have a war of 3 Queens which sounds like these queens are going to be fighting each other so unless the is going to be a dispute between Margery and her grandmother she’s not the third queen Ps: How cool would it have been if at the end of season 6 Sansa was named queen of the north Vale and Riverlands with Littlefinger as her hand up against Dany with her southern alliance plus Dothraki and Unsullied and her advisor being Varys with Cersie in between
I highly doubt the queen of thorns included little finger in any scheme. Little finger is the one to tell Sansa and we know he lies not to mention little finger has been playing his part as a Lannister loyalist why would the Tyrells assume he'd be willing side with them. Just doesn't make sense.
2:34 True, but the consort queen has more power over the court than the dowager, at least nominally. And this soft power over the court can translate itself into indirect political power, if played well. Also, if an adult King will delegate political power to a Queen it will most surely be to his wife and not his mother. When a Queen is in good terms with a King she will be an adviser to him and influence policy, and even when she is not she can use her influence to fill the small council, city's watch and kingsguard with her allies. Alicent and Cersei are examples of consorts that influenced politics when their husbands were alive despite having a bad relationship with them. Myriah Martell also had enough power at court to make it very dornish, to the distaste of the other kingdoms
At the risk of beating a dead horse, I also lean towards Sansa over Olenna. I think you're right about Margaery being one, but Olenna's not a different faction (a different queendom) from Marg the way the Wot5K parallel would imply. Meanwhile, Sansa Whent-Tully-Stark-Lannister/Alayne Baelish-Hardyng has claims to 4 of the 7 pre-conquest royal seats. LF has set her up to be queen of like everything north of the Reach.
Sansa is Queen of the North and Riverlands until Robs will comes out then she marries Harry the Heir and brings in the Vale. Harry also could have a claim on the North
The books are bound to be different, but if you think abt the shows perspective, the war of the three queen did happen in a diplomatic sense. Cersei vs Olena+Dany vs Sansa
Definitely 🦁Cersei, Margery 🏵️, it either daenaerys 🐉 or arianne Martell ☀️ maybe one of those olenna is to old and stakes are higher for Margery I would to hear more of your videos good ideas.
I think it is not Cersei AND Margaery. I think Baelish believes one of those two will win. So Cersei or Margaery, WHOEVER gets control of Tommen is Queen 1. I think he believes Dorne will crown Myrcella as 2nd eldest so heir to Iron Throne and rise up in Rebellion, Queen 2. And he wants to unite The North, Vale, Riverlands for Sansa Queen 3. Hasn't factored in Dany yet.
I wonder how, in the midst of dany and young griff pressing claims to the throne, westeros will look at Euron styling himself king. Would anyone become desperate enough to throw their support behind him?
Only those who are right next to his army and need to chose between bending the knee to Euron and death. Although I think Euron would kill them all anyway, specially if he becomes an eldritch god after the battle at oldtown
@KevinPendragon how's it going today Ser? Take me a minute to find this video but I have a theory about this myself first I want you to make sure you tell your cousin Arthur Pendragon that I said "what's up My Round Table Homie?"... I do not believe for a second that the third Queen is the queen of thorns herself... I believe it is some foreshadowing that has already been kind of coming towards the light and it may be the last step in some other foreshadowing that is crashing into the previous foreshadowing to activate the theory that I'm fixing to lay out on you and that is that's a third Queen is....... Princess Arrienne Martell!! Because she obviously kept bringing up in that sample chapter she was in for the Winds of Winter she kept asking about Viserys, and knowing he did she was curious about that then she saw the master whispers for the golden company and thought he was like a Targaryen and thought he was ugly and then obviously she's going to see young Chris AKA aegon .. I say I say...blackfyre I believe him to actually be she sees him and sees he's a come with youth that's tall and motley intelligent who happens to be related to her somewhat closely but not really but also she's had the itch to marry a Targaryen ever since she heard about the beggar King and her wedding alliance so she goes ahead and does something without consulting her father and then I'm sure aegon blackfyre is going to do something crazy also even after talking to John connington and having John tell him know you need to save your marriage for Daenerys ...he's going to end up doing it anyway because it's not coming to westeros fast enough for him, and we just so happen to have a princess Martell there who desperately wanted to be married to a King and wants to have more power than she's already going to receive because obviously she has a power-hungry vacuum inside of her stomach LOL so it would make perfect sense for her to become The unwanted third queen that John connington tries to talk aegon out of doing but he does anyway because he's young and stupid like all of us was at one point and then Arienne lol we all know she has bad decision making issues and also impulse control problems lol so even if she talked to her dad or not she's still going to do it whether he approved or not I'm sure so cuz there's been too much talking about and foreshadowing over weddings and marriages and alliances to conquer the kingdom and how they need dorne and all that shit Plus on top of all of that ignore every bit of those reasons and here's the main reason this would make cersei extra paranoid and extra crazy and make her go further off the edge because now she doesn't know which beautiful queen is actually supposed to replace her.... Lol instead of thinking she has it all figured out and maybe solving the problem with Margorie now all of a sudden a second Queen comes out of the woodworks who's more beautiful than cersei and she doesn't know which one is actually the one that's supposed to replace her and bring this chain reaction of hers to life that Maggie the frog head you know spun out for her so yeah if anything that's enough reason alone for it to be another young beautiful queen lol Sorry I know that's long and I know I made a lot of jokes in there and cracked a lot of jokes but same time I'm pretty sure my theory solid. Let me know what you think
I considered Arianne as well. I think Arianne is the younger more beautiful queen from Cersei's prophecy. But I don't think she's the 3rd qeen. LF would have to know about Young Griff to make the connection and I don't think he knows about Young Griff. I do think Arianne will be queen but it will be a shock to her and LF as well
@@KevinPendragon I don't know man I feel like a little finger knows a little bit more than most people would ever even think I mean I feel like he's got some overreaching people out there telling him s***.... Plus I feel like you may be getting info from the queen of thorns or hell even Willas Tyrell.... I would go so far is the even say that if let's say darkstar fleas dorne either before or even after they come to find him there at the beginning of Winds of Winter whether he just leaves before they find him or there's a battle and he wins and fleas I wouldn't be surprised at single bit if Dark Star showed up at the bloody gate asking the knight of the bloody gate if he can pass because he has come to see little finger lol I mean I wouldn't be surprised one bit if Little fingers talks to Prince Doran or DarkStar on the Reg. Is I mean they all all of them specially The Prince and Littlefinger they all have a lot of double-dealing back door dealing and secret dealing going on more than a spider web of that connected together then it's even probably known in the books yet it's just surprises waiting to come out
I think it might be Sansa herself that is the third queen. That's Petyr's plan - to make her a queen. And, some would say, she already is one. Robb disowning Sansa is not well known, and everyone thinks her brothers are dead. Therefore, some would say she's the Queen in the North. Which would be very relevant to Littlefinger.
People to consider not mentioned (but probably not Petyr’s suggestion but GRRM’s meta hints): Barbary: Brandon’s wife at the tree no witnesses, mother of true heir of Winterfell Ramsey as the Pink letter says. Petyr worked with her on the Pink letter probably. Melisandre: tongue-in-cheek Stannis’ wife, Nightqueen’s sister (Re: Flayed Woman fairytale) Nightqueen: last seen in Thistle’s body by Varamyr. Also messing with Euron’s head. Most likely Petyr knows of her. Rhaella aka Varys: not sure if Petyr knows this. Rhaenys: still around, not a biological child of Rhaegar, but recognized. Highly doubt this is an answer. Sansa is definitely the one Petyr is referring to, I’m not sure if he intends to marry his daughter to Robert’s bastard Robert Arryn or Aegon(Young Griff). Aegon will have a wedding to her next book but Petyr will be long dead when she marries Harry “the heir to Petyr” previously. Aegon will save Sansa from Harry, “being the true dragon knight she always wanted” but Aegon will die at the wedding when he demands “his” dragon, the largest, from Daenerys. 🔥Fooosh goes Aegon.🔥
Kevin, I appreciate your videos. Thank you for the time and thought that you put into them. As much as I enjoy your content, I will disagree with you on this one. You have a Olenna and Marjorie as two of the three queens. They are on the same side. They represent the same faction. I disagreed that they are two of the three queens. First queen is Cersei. She represents the Lanester fashion. She embodies the descending madness/misrule of the Targaryens (yes I think Aerys could be her father). The second Queen is represented by Margaery because she is the queen of the realm, the wife to King Tommen. But the real political thought for the tyro family, and the decision making process lies with her grandmother, the queen of thorns. The mass of people will think of Marjorie as the queen, but those in the know will realize it is Olenna. As for the third queen… You mentioned Selyse and Danaerys. Yet you did not mention the three other women in Westeros who dream of being a queen, or having someone make them into a queen. The first of these is Asha Greyjoy. She stated her claim in front of the iron born, and they rejected her. She’ll never be queen, but she can make life miserable for others. The next two candidates are already princesses. Myrcella Baratheon and Arianne Martell. Arianne already raised Mycella’s banner, and a failed coup. Technically Myrcella and Cersei are on the same side… that is until Marcella is forced to oppose her brother. To this quandary Tyrion doesn’t even know the answer of Cersei’s response. Like the Tyrell faction, the Martell faction has a lovely young queen up front with an older woman pulling the strings. That seems more likely with Doran’s feeling health. And like you have stated, that littlefinger has not factored Daenerys into his plans, I don’t think that Sansa has factored herself into littlefingers plans. Sansa is the heir of Winterfell, the second or third best heir to the Eyrie, the third in line to Riverrun, and the current lady of Casterly Rock. When littlefinger Spences webs and certain people, die, Sansa could be in charge of four of the seven great houses. it does not seem to me that he will do this in order to fight a war with Santa as the third queen. It seems to me that he will continue to work behind the scenes and to give himself power. So that is eight candidates for three spots. Eleven candidates if you include Val and Jeyne (whom no one will follow without Eddard’s grandson) and Shireen. Thanks again for the video. Keep up with the great work.
Cersei is definitely not as smart as she thinks she is. Cersei didn't realize that once Robert died , and Joffery took the throne , she would no longer be queen. Cersei only had power due to her position as queen. Therefore, any woman that her son marry would replace her as queen.
I actually don't think Olenna was complicit in Joffrey's murder in the books. Literally the only source we have for this is Littlefinger, and since his account of their plan makes no sense whatsoever, I don't think he's honest.
LF was miles away during the Purple Wedding (he made sure to not be present)... so how did the Purple Wedding happen unless somebody who was actually there poisoned Joffrey? We know the poison that killed him comes in crystals that exactly match the headdress that Sansa was instructed to wear, and GRRM made a point of telling us that Olenna fiddled with that headdress before Joffrey was poisoned. That's quite a bit of circumstantial evidence right there. (and contrary to its common connotation, circumstantial evidence is a perfectly valid source of evidence.)
@@Katerine459 Here's a few questions: 1. If it was Olenna, why would she involve Littlefinger? What does he bring to the table? I'm pretty sure she can get her hands on Strangler herself if she wants, and she can't even trust him given that he was the one praising Joffrey to her and advocating for the marriage in the first place. 2. Why would Olenna agree to poisoning a wedding cup that the groom and bride traditionally share at a wedding? Reread the chapter, it actually mentions Margaery drinking from the same chalice a few times earlier on. Unless Olenna is somehow okay with the risk of Margaery drinking the poison, that seems stupidly risky. 3. Why involve Sansa and Dontos? There are easier ways to smuggle in poison, and even if you want them as scapegoats, a drunk fool and a thirteen year old girl with no clue are liabilities. 4. Why did Littlefinger hire the dwarves? Creating animosity between Joffrey and Tyrion makes no sense if you intend to kill Joffrey anyway. After all, even if you want to frame Tyrion, you have to make it look like he planned the poisoning _before_ the wedding, i. e. before he sees the dwarves. 5. If the wine was poisoned, why does it affect Joffrey differently from Maester Cressen? When Maester Cressen drinks wine with the Strangler, his throat immediately tightens, he can't even speak a word, and then he immediately dies. Joffrey, on the other hand, drinks from his cup, gives a long-ish speech about how shameful it is that Tyrion doesn't want to eat the wonderful tart with lemon cream, then casually walks over to Tyrion's tart, eats it himself, begins to cough, drinks from his cup _again_ in reaction, and _then_ his throat swells and he dies. 6. Why does Littlefinger want Joffrey dead in the first place? He says it himself, he has no motive. He has plans for Sansa. The one person at the wedding he should want dead is Tyrion. And oh look, he created a diversion that would make Tyrion angry and not pay attention to what else is happening around him. Just because Joffrey dies from the poison, doesn't mean he was the _target._ As for Littlefinger being miles away from the feast, sure. We know he was conspiring with _someone_ at the wedding. That isn't even in dispute. We know he had Dontos and Kettleblack on the inside. He could have easily had even more allies or paid lackeys there, from guests to simple servants It may not be enough to completely and definitively exonerate Olenna, but I'd say it's definitely enough to cast serious doubt on her involvement. It also sheds far better light on Littlefinger's own motive than the story he gives Sansa. (Incidentally, he doesn't even initially say he conspired with Olenna. He lets Sansa _guess_ who his co-conspirator was, Sansa guesses Olenna in response, and _then_ Littlefinger tells his story.)
@@tarvoc746All good questions. Here are my answers: 1) LF brought OT to the table, not the other way around. He's the one who started telling her about Joffrey's cruelties, which is why she started her investigation (that's what she was doing in that earlier meeting with Sansa). 2) I don't recall exactly, but IIRC, the cup wasn't poisoned. The cake was. 3) LF's entire goal was to smuggle out Sansa. He wanted her. For that reason, he needed to orchestrate a way to get her out in the chaos. 4) Tyrion was the scapegoat. The more visible animosity existed between Joffrey and Tyrion before the poisoning, the better. As for Tyrion having to plan it in advance... Tyrion's revulsion for Joffrey was well-known. The dwarves just locked it in everybody's short-term memories. Plus, LF is not above being petty, and he has no love lost for Tyrion. 5) Don't know why in the show. In the books, we don't see Maester Cressen's death described (since it's from Cressen's POV). Cressen's chapter does describe the Strangler's effect as pretty-much what we saw with Joffrey in the show. (Also, I'm not sure what this has to do with your main point? Or are you just moving on to general questions about the Purple Wedding?) 6) Sansa is a hostage. That's her primary role in KL, and killing Tyrion wouldn't accomplish getting her away from KL at all. It wouldn't accomplish anything, really. Tywin, Cersei, and Joffrey were the main people keeping Sansa in KL. (Tywin and Cersei, because of her value as a hostage, and Joffrey, because Sansa was his plaything). It's also worth noting... I don't buy into the whole idea that LF is some genius mastermind who's playing 5D chess with everybody. What he is, is a gambler and an opportunist. He's very talented at creating opportunities for himself and seeing where they lead, then finding ways to use those opportunities to his own advantage. Killing Joffrey may have simply been a way to create chaos. (And again... what does this have to do with your main point about Olenna not being involved? Because the one thing we actually know for a fact is that LF _was_ involved... otherwise, how would he have known to have a ship ready for Sansa to escape?)
@@Katerine459 5) Actually, I was going by the book here, because we do get a description of Cressen's process of dying from an inside perspective. Cressen finds that, _immediately after drinking the poisoned wine,_ his throat swells and he can't speak or swallow anymore (!), and then the chapter ends, indicating his death. There is no delay of at least a minute that would allow him to give a speech or eat anything. In fact, his throat swelling immediately would _prevent_ him from eating anything. 6) Except the plan to get Sansa away from King's Landing didn't need Joffrey to die. It only needed for the wedding to descend into chaos. I'm pretty sure Tyrion being poisoned would have accomplished that too. Also, the question of who was the target has a lot to do with whether Olenna was involved or not, because Littlefinger has no motive to kill Joffrey whatsoever, but we _know_ he was involved - which calls into question whether Joffrey was even the intended target. If the intended target was actually _Tyrion_ and not Joffrey, then _Olenna_ has no motive.
@@Katerine459 I wanted to reply to this, but RU-vid keeps deleting my comments. Maybe I'm using a bad no-no word somewhere. You haven't answered one crucial question: What is Littlefinger's motive for targeting Joffrey?
I dont think Marge and Olenna ought to count as 2 of 3 queens if they’re the same faction. I think Sansa puppeteered by Baelish is the 3rd queen faction in his forecasts.
I think not, he clearly intends to have power south of the Neck, at both the capital and the Riverlands. This would be impossible if turned himself into a traitor by making Sansa a Queen in the North.
I don't recall the exact passage you're referring to (it's been a while), but just from what you read... it sounds like LF is a little worried. He's fundamentally a gambler at heart, so the worriedness/fearfulness would translate to excitement. So Daenerys is certainly still on the table (you used her unpredictability and danger as a reason to exclude her, but given LF's character, that actually makes her _more_ likely to be a source of excitement for him, not less).
It is bad for any business that isn't centered around weapons. And I doubt that is a large section of westerossi economy, it's just medieval metalurgy at this point
Food? Transport? Lodging? Soldiers riding horses. Horses eat oats. Oat business booms Medicine prices sky rocket. Herbs in demand. Gardens for poppy flowers become worth more than small estates. Need carts to carry supplies. Maybe some were had from before, but they're made of wood and likely we're repurposed, so carpentry. Leather works. Shepherds suddenly get a boon because wool for socks to protect the feet of soldiers marching long distance... Hell, even seamstresses would get a boost with all the flags, cloaks, tents, saddlebags etc. Thinking only weapons would get affected by a war starting is silly. And they can't just TAKE the stuff at sword point, or they are killing the people who know how to produce AND potential foot troops... No... As he said, this isn't the space to talk about it, but apparently y'all need to really seriously get some further education about how war is a benefit to the economy.
