Most micros are made in the same factories as the Chinese watches. For example Erebus is made by San Martin. A micro has to find the best price for quality parts, and at the moment that means China.
There's two categories of micros: one that tries to go for the masses and they compete with the Citizen/Seiko category, and they have to go the China route. The other is for collectors/people who know a bit more about watches, and they start in Europe usually, outsourcing movements locally, or in Switzerland and only parts/case/straps in China (which even luxury brands do by now, by the way). These usually start at the 1000$ mark and go up, there's at least a dozen of them that are really good (mostly German or Nordic brands).
@@stevengreen471 I don't love that either, but at least most big brands have a foundation of original design and technical innovation they built their brand upon. The factory brands just steal popular designs they think will sell. Really hard for me to support that
Totally agree. Seiko 5 gmt (ssk line) its a clear homage of the Rolex GMT but everyone say its unique and sexy 😂. If you use an invicta, so you are trying to copy rolex 😂😂. I dont understand
@@stevengreen471 because we're lazy about noticing who stole from who, so we only notice the more salient copies. Like when a small brand copies a very recognizable model. Also, it's about status. A small brand has to prove it's there to stay and has intrinsic value, and just copying other models won't get you there. Whereas big brands are already established, they don't need to prove to you their value. So if they have a copy here and there, it doesn't do much to their image
Sub $250 chinese brands are now fine for me. I've come out of the brainwashing that $1000 is cheap for a swiss made watch when i have bills to pay in real life.
There are Swiss watches are have true worth for their money that no chinese/Seiko can reproduce, but they are not in the 1000$ range and they are a once in a lifetime purchase. IWC (Portugieser), Omega (Seamaster), Glashuette (Panomatic Lunar) each have one of those under 10K and there's a few from Vacheron Constantin, A. Lange & Sohne, etc. if you really hit the jackpot. Everything else (Tudor, Roles, Patek, Hublot, etc.) is just marketing and brand status, but even that can make some people happy, so I guess, to each their own.
I was looking at that lovely Seiko, thinking to myself, "Self, this might be a Seiko worth purchasing!" Then I saw the cheap, lazy, pressed clasp, the hollow end links, the unsigned crown, and was turned off.
My wife recently stumbled upon the tiffany blue Citizen Tsuyosa. I warned her that it might be a little big, but she likes bigger watches, so I bought it for around $300 during the Labor Day sales in the US a couple weeks ago. I've always been a big Citizen fan, but I was super impressed when this watch came in. I don't think you can do much better for $300 from a big brand. She loves it!! Originality is a big deal to me, so the Chinese factory brands are out. I dabbled in micro brands when I first came to the hobby, but I've also gotten away from those as well. If somebody had $300 to spend and liked the design, I would recommend the Tsuyosa all day long
I absolutely agree. These chinese watches may be unmatched when it comes to specs for money, but I just can't bring myself to spend money on a borderline fake watch with a nonsensical google-translated name on the dial. I absolutely agree on the Citizen Tsuyosa, that thing is a looker! Especially the newer model with the small seconds complication and textured dial. Good call.
seiko are refusing repairs of defective (stuck bezel that doesn't rotate at all any-longer) rotating bezels under warranty claiming that the rotating bezel on a dive watch is just an aesthetic feature and aesthetic defects are not covered under warranty. so i don't think the tradition and the well established after sales customers service should be considered a plus when thay are using it to scam their customers into paying for repairs while under warranty, at least not for seiko any more.
It makes sense when microbrand create something original indeed to ask for a higher price than "Chinese factory" produced watch. It makes little sounds when micro brand asks twice or three times the money of generic AliExpress watch while the only change is the dial (color, texture)
It is hard to believe what you are telling us about Seiko. I mean a rotating bezel on a dive watch. Is there for a purpose. It is called a timing bezel. For Seiko to actually refuse to repair something like that is ridiculous.
I have 20 Aliexpress Automatic watches. From cheap Addiesdive to San Martin, the quality of the San Martin is on par with my 'entry level' Swiss watches. Plus they are reasonably priced. Great comparison video
I have the Tudor BB58 and I picked up the SM version sn0008c for comparison. I was shocked to see just how strong the lume is on the SM. I have several watches in my collection and the SM has the best lume by far than any of the others. I have Seiko, CW, Tudor, Omega, Tissot, Casio, Rolex and others and by far the SM beats them all with regards to lume. So Kudos to SM on the superior lume they have applied to their BB series.
You should really check out Lorier. Microbrand led by a husband and wife team who are former school teachers with a passion for vintage inspired watches. Outstanding quality and value. Originally based out of Texas but now operate out of NYC. I own their Neptune and it easily outshines MANY major brands.
Dive style watches, stainless steel and I can only afford the Chinese homage watches. I haven't found anything to compare favorably in cost no matter the heritage or history. All "major" brands have priced themselves out of my league.
I recently got the San Martin BB54 and am thoroughly impressed by it. I think the fit and finish is better than the Seiko I recently bought, and it has a Seiko movement. Can't beat it for the price.
My last few watches have been from San Martin and Cronos. Not only is the quality quite remarkable, but I've had email conversations with real humans about my purchases - I buy direct - something that would never happen with companies like Seiko. And the fact that Seiko still use things like pin-&-collar adjustment on the bracelet is just pathetic. I buy a San Martin and I get very high quality screw-pins, on-the-fly adjustment etc. Lastly, the whole thing about copying others' designs - I really don't care. Every brand copies every other brand; even the original Rolex Submariner was based on a rival's design. Major brands are getting sloppy on features and quality, and their prices are starting to look very poor value.
I have watches from all categories: Seiko SKS and baby Alpinist, Direnzo and RZE, San Martin, Pagani Design, Sea Gull. I enjoy them all but I am really impressed with the bang-for-buck of the chinese watches, especially San Martin. They also seem to regulate them. As a side note, my seiko alpinist quit working and I had to pay about half the cost of the watch to get it repaired.
That's normal. 6R movements that Seiko uses in Alpinists and many other watches are the worst watch movements in the world. No other serious movement maker in the entire industry makes something as shite as the Seiko 6R. I'm sorry you had to deal with that.
One advantage of major brands is also that often you can find them in your location, you can see them, try them, put their models side by side to compare. + You don't have to pay import tax, custom duties
Got my 38mm solar prospex diver for 400 euros at a AD, been wearing it for close to 2 years now, got 9 other watches, also more pricey ones. But my solar what I wear most the time and would 100% be what I kept if only could have one watch, they are slept on.
I’ve owned multiples in each of these categories. For the less than $300-ish price category a watch like a San Martin is easily going to be the best quality watch. It just comes down to how you feel about the Chinese companies like SM. A lot of their watches are just blatant copies of big brands. And it does give me a little bit of the ick sometimes.
Here’s a fun fact. I got a crappy attitude from somebody at Safeway the other day. I was wearing my SEESTERN Doxa Sub 600T homage. He said that I should’ve “just gotten the original” despite not just having $2,000 to throw around. I then told him that Doxa isn’t even really Swiss anymore. They’re made in China. Blew his tiny little mind.
That guy's a tool. I love watches and I'm always interested in what I see other people wear. I would never tell someone what they "should" have bought.
The Seestern Sub 600T quality rivals and somewhat surpasses the Doxa counterpart. That's why I elected to just buy the Seestern myself. No regrets, I was blown away.
Interesting comparison. Seiko is surely down on specs, up on brand promise, but another important aspect for some people who want to extend and switch up their collection is that they hold their value better when re-selling. Not as an investment, just to provide additional funds for new watches. I have some Seikos, Citizens and Casios, but also a few Chinese watches with "inspired" designs, good specs but mainly just good looking watches I enjoy wearing.
I really like that Seiko. Just a great looking watch. But hardlex and a pressed clasp on a $600 watch? Come on, Seiko. I own that avocado San Martin watch. And just used it at the beach on vacation. Really striking design, and held up very well. I totally disagree about the matching color date wheel. I think it elevates the design.
I had numerous Seikos, great watches. Now I own one Seiko, one Orient, three Glycines and 11 Chineses with Seiko movements. All great affordables watches under 250$ each most of the Chineses around 100$. I prefer having 16 watches to choose from rather than have one or two more expensive. Since we send all our productions to China, they now know the technologies and they are catching up with us, their quality is getting better and better and they have an excellent price/quality ratio, like solid Stainless steel, Saphire crystals and Seiko movements. I recommand them!
I really love this comparison, not just between brands, but the watch ethos as a whole. It represents what people are looking for and in some ways who they are. Excellent video. Currently looking at the this baby Samurai but the lug-to-lug of the older model is smaller? Really need to try them on
I’m getting a strong Zodiac Super Sea Wolf vibe from the San Martin so I’m not sure I would call it an original design. Great watch for the money though!
I recently picked up a Baltany Driver 1921 hand wound version and will say that the quality is quite surprising (in a positive way). Finishing and detailing is much better than I would expect for the ~116 USD I paid for it. While not much for originality, I think it’s an excellent watch and wear it regularly.
It has been a while I have seen a Seiko that I like, and I used to like them a lot (especially their SKX line they retired for whatsoever ever reason). Only the micro brands are keeping alive my interest in watches.
Nice video. Interesting seeing how much has changed over the last 20 years. Timex has been moving up-market and it's cool seeing some things hit and some miss. Everyone's upping their game
I'm more of a micro or micro with a retro look brought back kind of guy. I do have quite a few citizens and I'm only really interested in the Chinese brands if it's an original design. Great vid, thanks for the upload 👍
Since the discovery of Chinese manufacturers, and their outstanding build quality, I've gone down the rabbit hole. I used to turn to high value Japanese brands for quality and best bang for the buck. It's now the Chinese brands. I've been a watch collecting nerd since the 1980's. Swiss, Japanese and a few Russian, were dominant purchases. Now it's Chinese offerings. Can't beat their bank for buck ratio. As long as you can stand some of the silly brand naming chosen! ie. Mysterious Code, FeelNever, etc. The Chinese manufacturers really should consider hiring a western consultant.
Excellent design innovation by MMI. Personally I'm not one for dive watches but if this is an example of their design chops I'll be very interested to see what else they can produce. Interesting choice to put a leather strap on a dive watch though. Side note: Massive flood of nostalgia watching your opening to the video. I recognized the Japanese architecture immediately, having spent half my life there, and still being the proud owner of a house with a beautiful washitsu like that. :)
To truly evaluate what makes a watch "the best," we first need to define the term. At the budget end of the market, most mechanical watches are very similar, whether they feature mass-market movements or in-house alternatives. Brands like Seiko or Miyota produce movements that, in performance, are nearly indistinguishable from many in-house offerings. This is because the natural limitations of mechanical watches-such as functionality, accuracy, and durability-restrict how much they can really differ. As a result, when buying a mechanical watch in this price range, you're often safe choosing whichever design you like, as reputable brands produce watches that are largely comparable. However, if you're looking for true functionality and modern capability, it might be time to embrace the future and opt for a smartwatch, which offers features far beyond what traditional mechanical watches can provide.
Biggest let down on Seiko etc is the clasp. For an extra 20 cents they could give 5 or 6 micro adjust. For another 50 cents they could give a divers extension.
San Martin being one of the "premium" factory brands actually puts in the effort for decent lume on most of their watches; some of them have been as good or better than some Seikos I've seen.
I used to really like Micro brands. Was recently checking out Brew watches and then stumbled across the exact same watch being sold on a Chinese platform for a quarter of the price. The watches werent similar to each other, it was the same watch...
Really interesting video Dave, thanks. It's good to see the bigger channels giving San Martin and other Chinese watches the credit they deserve. I've been saying for quite a while now that San Martin especially are right up there in terms of build quality and finishing. There's a reason that microbrands and even some of the big brands use them to produce their watches. As you said, they offer fantastic value for money too. For me personally, I just don't see the value when it comes to the likes of Seiko now. Their prices keep going up, but then, as you said you still have things like, hardlex and pressed clasps etc. You also hear lots of stories of misaligned bezels too. So--much-so, that it's become somewhat of a joke now. This is why I have quite a few Seiko homages, but only one actual Seiko... The 'Black Russian' Cocktail Time. They make great looking dials, but the rest of the watch tends to let it down... Especially when Chinese brands and microbrands are using the same movements, but in a better overall package.
Great video. I really appreciate how you get into the background. I have a Seiko Samurai v1 Save the Ocean--it was the first 'nice' watch I bought. It is kind of a chonky boy, but I love it. If it were the same size as the new Samurai, it would be ideal, but considering I got it for ~$320, I have zero complaints.
I mention to folks that only have major swiss brands how they should contract folks like San Martin to be able to develop straps and such for them. They go "whattt???" They really havent taken notice about how much the Chinese have caught up and in some ways surpassed the main brands in terms of cases, finishing, dials and straps etc. Another 5 years and the movements will be hard to beat.
If they stop using seiko mvts at least, my most accurate movement is not my miyotas and oviously not my seikos, its a seagull mvt. That is running cosc in 5 positions when messuring it, and in reality run a bit faster, but still close.
Just ordered my first non Chinese/homage automatic watch. I got a used Sekio Captain Willard SBDC181. A new Willard I dont think is a good value, but a depreciate used one in good condition I felt the price was right.
An ISO diver has to survive at 125% rated depths for 2 whole hours vs 10 minutes for a water resistant watch. It has to be antimagnetic there is even a tug test to make sure the crown and strap stays on if it gets caught on something. It’s the difference between a serious tool and a fashion statement.
The only brands names I would currently buy are casio and vostok [vostok recently had a 20% price increase]. All other brands are out of the price range that I am comfortable throwing away money on. That said, I am all aboard on the Ali Express train and buy everything from Skimei to Steeldive to San Martin. I do own a limited edition pro-master but am not in the market for any new brand big brand name products.
Excellent video summarizing these three worlds of watchmaking and the pros and cons of each. 👏👏👏. I have some major brand representation in my collection with an emphasis on trusted microbrands who have proven themselves over 5-10 years with solid design, quality, customer service and support, and resale value. Haven’t yet ventured into the Chinese brands but San Martin, in particular, has really impressed recently.
Great video, and some excellent points that you made...I will say that I own two San Martins, and absolutely love both of them, despite that they are "knock offs", I've had people give me compliments on both of them.
Seiko raise their prices a lot. Some years ago, seiko sold watches for 200$ wich are aligned with 1000$ watches. Now seiko sell watches for 1500$ wich tecnically are similar to an 500€ watch from other brand. Desalign bezels, hardlex ... Not a fan.
100% agree. When the SKX was discontinued, the whole dive line has taken a tumble downward. The value just isn’t there. I still love my old SKX, the new Seikos just don’t add up
I guess everyone has their preferences. In the case of the San Martin here I like the date design and location and I have no problem with the San Martin logo. But then I am strange as I love the Orient logo even though many watch enthusiasts hate it.
I like your videos. Nice presentation , close ups and explanation about them . Can you please give us a video about square and rectangular men’s watches…? I like them as well but don’t see a lot about them.
I'd like to own more original brands (and i do own a number) but their prices increases are pricing me out plus poor specs and QC for those prices tuen me off. Doesn't mean i won't get some - it does mean i will buy less ... And buy more Chinese and Micro brands.
I have several Seikos, and several Zelos, for the price I think Zelos are great! San Martin is a nice watch but priced too high! I have a SM Tuna with a miss aligned Minuit track, they told me it probably happened during shipping. I could have sent it back and 2 months latter received it back hopefully fixed. Since the watch is running about 5 seconds fast a day. I didn’t want to mess with the accuracy.
I wonder if most people that are concerned with value for money do it out of practical reasons, or because they hate the feeling of overpaying. If it's the latter, I would say just let that concern go. It's not grocery shopping. Even if the watch you like is overpriced, how many times are you buying a watch? If not a lot, that buy what you like. The difference in price won't hurt you. If you buy a lot, then you have enough money to not sweat over the price difference. The only people who should sweat over it, are those who have a hobby they struggle to afford.
I'll be in Japan next week, visiting the Tribeca Tokyo, Kyoto and Osaka. Any recommendations on where to get good prices on Seiko, Orient, Citizen watches?
This is a great video Dave and I think you fill a niche in the market. You fill it very well and you made an interesting comment about manufacturing. Has there been any analysis about Chinese manufacturing and what parts are used in other nation’s manufacturing? Japan is probably not in the mix but Swiss, German, French and UK timepieces generally have Chinese content though it is not easy to determine the ‘percentage’.
If you were talking about quartz watches then I would whole-heartedly recommend the Chinese-factory brands. The only thing to be careful of is the photographs they use on Aliexpress as they do not always give the full picture. I recently bought a day-date homage which looked good in the photos but actually had a bezel that was far too thick and completely spoiled the watch. It turned out that there was one single photo that properly showed the watch, all the others had been photoshopped to disguise the bezel. The one honest picture was very small and hidden in a multi-photo montage.
I've been looking at that Seiko watch for awhile but at that price I would have wanted sapphire glass and an exhibition case back. And of course I'd get a Strapscode bracelet for it immediately after buying.
San Martin's track record is plenty long and plenty good. Seiko is known for having a bunch of quality control issues and just being cheaply made. It's a little bit of a biased, by you. San Martin is better all day everyday and then say goes at the same price point.
Great video, as always. It wasn’t bad before, but even the videography has set even higher standards for the rest of us to follow. But hey, now that I’m finally monetized, I’m looking to go pro in, say, 10 years 😂? Blessings to you, my brother :-)
Interesting how many commentators, including this one, ignore the Chinese sub $100 watches. I have a $70 US Steeldive 1970 that has an NH 35 movement good to COSC standards, a 316L case and solid link bracelet, milled clasp, 120 click ceramic bezel, sapphire crystal, and superb lume (it's still visible after 8 hours) . 200m water resistance, I wear it 24/7. It's hard to imagine a better watch as far as performance goes. Are the luxury Swiss brands better, and with far greater snob appeal? Well, Yes. My friend's Rolex Subby is good to 1/2 a second per day (he winds it daily), and has the same features as the Steeldive, except for it's plastic crystal. And it does impress the upwardly mobile far more than does the Steeldive. All a watch can do for you is to tell you the time. But that's not the reason we buy them, especially fully mechanical ones! What's the best watch? The one you buy and then don't replace!
The watch industry is in turmoil at the moment as the Chinese start to become players and will probably dominate in the years to come. The Swiss are starting to get lazy and too expensive, while up-and-coming brands are innovating. This process will only continue over the next few years. It's a time of change.
I dabbled in micro and chinese and for the most part they dont do it for me. Brand is important to me. It sends a social signal whether you like it or not. For me to buy a micro/chinese, it has to wow me. Value or specs are not enough. San Martin is pretty good. Ive owned three. Sold all. Christopher ward has some interesting stiff but getting pricey. My value brand is used Seiko. Just bought a 1964 Tokyo chrono reissue. Original design. In house chrono movement!. Half the price of most mid tier Swiss. Value is a relative term and i think Seiko is still a value brand
I don't care about brand at all. My son just bought a $400 Seiko, and I was surprised how cheap this watch feels. It feels thin and flimsy. It feels more like a $50 watch. I don't even consider Seiko anymore because they charge a lot of money for their name and not their quality. Their price doesn't match the quality at all.
If I'm looking for a new watch I will rarely look at a major brand. Micro brands and factory brands offer far better value for money, and I have no interest in heritage. I always buy good used, and let someone else take the hit. My experience of Seiko is that their QC is poor, and their after sales is dreadful. Everyone to their own though
When Chinese watches have better chapter ring alignment and a signed crown than Seiko, one wonder why are we consumers paying so much money for a not so well made watch like Seiko!
Funnily enough, as long as the brand is still around, you probably get better customer service from microbrands than you do with Seiko. They (and other Japanese brands) are notoriously pig-headed about these things.
Cronos is better than San M , way better bracelet and lot cheaper. Seestern sugess maybe not on level as above but very reasonable prices amazing quality. Baltany is great, and my favorite is addiesdive king 👑 of budget watches
