Why Are Electric Vehicle Fires So Hard To Put Out?

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Can we solve electric vehicle fires before we fully understand what’s happening inside them?
#lithium #EV #fire
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Credits:
Executive Producer:
Matthew Radcliff
Producers:
Elaine Seward
Andrew Sobey
Darren Weaver
Writer/Host:
George Zaidan
Scientific Consultants:
Michelle Boucher, Ph.D.
Leila Duman, Ph.D.
Donal Finegan, Ph.D.
Sunil Mair, Ph.D.
Executive in Charge for PBS: Maribel Lopez
Director of Programming for PBS: Gabrielle Ewing
Assistant Director of Programming for PBS: John Campbell
Reactions is a production of the American Chemical Society.
© 2023 American Chemical Society. All rights reserved.
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26 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 208

@Balin_James Год назад

You guys really had fun editing this one, didn’t you? 😂 I’m all for it

@playgroundchooser Год назад

I'm glad I'm not the only one who came down here to mention the mid-word transitions that are all completely flawless! This was such a great episode in a channel that is full of top notch content.

@STEAMerBear 7 месяцев назад

Okay firefighters, I’m a chemistry teacher and an Army veteran. Here are my questions: 1) How are you CURRENTLY trained to extinguish a BONA FIDE alkali metal fire such as burning potassium or sodium? 2) Has ANYONE explained to you that EV fires may fall into this category? 3) What happens when you add water to an alkali metal? That’s it. P.s. Fire departments might want to explore carrying 20-30 gallons of liquid nitrogen in a dewar on fire trucks precisely to deal with things like this. (It reduces heat and oxygen really well.)

@grimaffiliations3671 Год назад

This channel is criminally underrated

@patusoro4781 Год назад

Excellent video, love the edits! Real question - The 20,000 gallons of water the fire department poured on the car, did it make any difference or did they just waste enough time for the batteries to burn themselves out naturally? I'm thinking the batteries are burning though a sealed, water proof casing. Is the water even getting to the source of the fire or are they just washing the seats and floor mats... and waiting for the fire to go out?

@ACSReactions Год назад

While it's hard to say for sure, huge amounts of water are likely to help stop a battery fire faster than just letting it burn. First off, by the time you have a full on fire, the casing is ruptured, allowing water in. Second, the water doesn't have to make direct contact at the point of the ISC, it just has to pull enough heat away from the battery to break the positive feedback loop that's providing energy and oxygen for combustion.

@asteria4279 Год назад

I was thinking the same thing. Maybe just keep the surroundings cool enough to not cause other damage? I have seen firefighters let a lost cause burn itself out and just concentrate on prevention of spreading.

@farhanaahmad408 Год назад

How would sand or clay do to put out fire?

@SuperLocrian Год назад

Yeah, I was wondering if something other than water could be used - of course, I realize that the general firetrucks carry water as do hydrants.... and the Fire Fighters would have to be notified they were going to an EV fire... But hypothetically (and chemically) is there some foam or something better for the job?

@mareksolenis1596 Год назад

@@SuperLocrian Vermiculite works on such batteries, question is how it will work with a car?

@greengooflight Месяц назад

this was the best explanation of a thermal runaway of a lithium battery ever

@KareemFloat Год назад

man, your voice is perfect for talking. legitimately the perfect voice for explanations and teaching.

@RedHedDes Год назад

Your editing and seemless dialogue cuts are really well done.

@quintessenceSL Год назад

Per my dad (engineer) "I only need to understand something 70% to do something useful with it" (explaining the difference between scientist and engineer).

@prapanthebachelorette6803 Год назад

Omg so true lol 😂

@mitchellcrane9809 Год назад

the water they use on a EV to put them out does not actually extinguish the fire! It is simply trying to contain fire till the cells burn themselves out.

@peterjackson2625 Год назад

First class explanation of the battery fires. The thermal runaway is similar to the runway of an explosion.

@arsyadidris6349 7 дней назад

First time here and the seemless scenes cuts are damn impressive… good job on the edit

@Phootaba Год назад

Kudos for the safety glasses and gloves when disassembling the battery. I'm guiding it was discharged, but still you had me nervous for a moment

@ChannelNews1 Год назад

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

@srb1855 Год назад

Excellent, well-deliverd presentation. I actually learned a few things. 👍👍

@MrDaiseymay 10 месяцев назад

SO DID i , LIKE, i DIDN'T UNDERSTAND A WORD OF WHAT HE WAS TALKING ABOUT, BUT, IT WAS FUN,

@AvianYuen Год назад

This was fun and informative. Thanks!

@brianfritz575 Год назад

We do understand how best to put out battery fires... the issue is that most fire departments don't have what is best for putting that fire out. Think of the good 'ole fire triangle. You need heat, an oxidizer, and fuel. All water can do when trying to put out a battery fire, which is a metal fire that is producing oxygen, is to remove some heat energy as the water goes from liquid to steam. If you douse a metal fire in sand, the sand sinks a large amount of heat, removing much of that heat. Additionally the sand smothers external oxygen from reaching the fire. So rather than only impacting one side of the fire triangle, by dousing in sand we can impact 2 sides. Most metal fire extinguishers contain some sore of sand with other chemicals to increase effectiveness. Problem is, it isn't very easy for a truck to carry tons of sand and easily put it right on top of a battery fire!

@empmachine Год назад

How can this only have ~800 likes..??? the footage is awesome and the explanations clear.. Well you got my thumb, nice work!

@vincentstouter449 Год назад

There are currently about six Lithium battery chemistries. LMC is often chosen due to its high power:weight ratio for EV’s and are subject to thermal runaway. LFP (lithium iron phosphate) batteries by contrast are NOT subject to thermal runaway, and furthermore have about five times the number of charge/discharge cycles. If a battery is to be placed inside a structure (house, RV, boat, etc) then LFP chemistry is the prudent solution for both safety band longevity. 😎

@ACSReactions Год назад

That high speed x-ray footage of thermal runaway came from Dr. Donal Finegan with the National Renewable Energy Lab. Check out that clip and more-like what happens when a nail punctures a lithium ion cell: www.youtube.com/@DonalFinegan

@metehan3795 Год назад

what is the battery you use while showing anode and cathode?

@BRUXXUS Год назад

Love this video! I’m currently designing a product that requires a lithium ion battery for power, and I’m planning it with 2 redundant safety protection measures.

@ValMartinIreland 11 месяцев назад

They are a fuel but they also produce a lot of oxygen which increases temperature.

@adrielreyes1818 Год назад

The smooth, near perfect, transitions mid sentence 👌 New sub

@catdadproblems Год назад

Excellent content as always - but that creepy murder basement with a... tub?

@evilroyslade2491 Месяц назад

Brilliant, now I know more battery stuff than before.

@NAVYABHAN Месяц назад

That Small Valve reminds me of a Nozzle for a Rocket Engine! The Military uses FOAM to put out all sort’s of fires and the quality of FOAM that enables it to do this is its ability to deprive a fire of the oxygen it needs to burn.

@kucami1 Год назад

Best frame in this whole video is the dog walking in

@John-vz1wq 26 дней назад

According to his research, shorter shirts can provide more ventilation and therefore prevet thermal runaways.

@michaelchang3042 Месяц назад

Good job for sharing this 😊

@beachboardfan9544 Год назад

I'm gunna thumbs up this vid in hopes that it results in more ad revenue so the host can afford to buy adult shirts that fit properly...

@ACSReactions Год назад

We appreciate your contribution to the cause.

@Chuzo1946 Год назад

Bahahah

@jolianijulianes5550 8 месяцев назад

Why USA government never think safety for People , from E V

@beachboardfan9544 8 месяцев назад

@@jolianijulianes5550 The US gov only cares about profit, not people.

@Guynhistruck 7 месяцев назад

@@beachboardfan9544Humans, amirite?

@GabrielaLopez-cn8qm 11 месяцев назад

So interesting, other than the design of the battery itself, they could in fact try cooling the fire faster, say with dry ice or liquid nitrogen! Do you have any thoughts about this?

@FloydMaxwell 8 месяцев назад

I had a similar thought. Biggest problem is that the fire is in the battery pack, which is always installed at the bottom of the vehicle (to keep a low center of gravity). So you can get water or other cooling agents to the battery directly. In short, the water is almost completely useless, and liquid nitrogen might not be much better. And then you'd have to keep a substantial supply of it on hand, in a tank you could tow behind your fire truck? Logistics are difficult, to say the least.

@KokLiangLim Год назад

"electrically insulating, chemically conduction" Mind-Blown!!! The missing link on my understanding on WHY separator works since most explanation visualize it as "holes" to let Li go through but not electron, which does not makes sense to me since electron should be so much smaller than whatever elements... has been always wondering how a material let something bigger go through but blocking smaller thing. But what does that mean "Electrons are way too reactive to travel through materials on their own"? 🤔

@baxterwilliams2170 6 дней назад

Lovely video!

@johnward5102 Год назад

Very very interesting and could hardly have come at a better time. Hurray for human ingenuity! Let's try and use it wisely.

@davidpacholok8935 6 месяцев назад

Fantastic and entertaining video sir! I have sent a few li ion cells into TR intentionally and not. The white hot sparks that are emitted with a Fully Charged cell are a sight to behold. Reminds me of thermite reactions. Think about high Nickel cathode chemistries. The Ni0 is callandered on to a sheet of Aluminum which is the positive current collector. .. according to the web Ni0x and AL powder also make thermite... so u see where I'm going with this. Another observation is that below 50% state of charge the cell usually vents Without the thermite fireworks. In a discharged cell much lithium has been transfered to the cathode. I suspect that Li is more strongly bonded to the oxygen than Aluminum, and this prevents the Aluminum from from reacting with the Li loaded Nickel oxide? Your comments please sir.

@grimaffiliations3671 Год назад

Im getting really good at catching these mid word transitions.

@davedoveminer 2 месяца назад

The most common cause of EV fires is thermal runaway, which is a rapid, uncontrolled increase in temperature leading to catastrophic battery failure or explosions. The temperature of an electric vehicle fire can reach 5,000 degrees Fahrenheit, compared to 1,500 degrees in a gas-powered car fire.

@morezco Год назад

The mid-phrase cuts are so satisfying

@ChannelNews1 Год назад

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

@jeads21 8 месяцев назад

The reaction also increases with the pressure, pressurize a cylinder and the temperature increases, it becomes an explosive circle.

@yesthatsam Год назад

Another amazing video! You guys rock ❤

@Inkling777 Год назад

Water doesn't put out EV fires. Water keeps the fire from spreading until the material is exhausted.

@asteria4279 Год назад

11:30 sodium battery? Doesn't that mean a whole lot of extra fun with firefighter water when it does eventually light on fire?!

@banalMinuta Год назад

Editing is top notch. Good job y'all

@ChannelNews1 Год назад

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

@LawpickingLocksmith Год назад

Lithium Ion batteries were first tested in 2 way radios during the Vietnam war. Thermal runaways had stifled commercial introduction for a long time. I experienced the changeover on video camera equipment where the so called memory effect of Ni Cad cells had to be eliminated. They built in computer chips to correctly charge and discharge them. Portable music players like the Ipod used them and paved the way for introduction into cell phones. Even the Boeing B787 has a blow hole on the side of the fuselage. New electric cars are designed to vent to the bottom giving occupants time to escape.

@ALucas73 11 месяцев назад

John B Goodenough invented the lithium battery in 1976. The Vietnam war ended in 1975.

@XmarkedSpot Год назад

This is good -content- -entertainment-. I'll have a subscription thank you.

@Matt-bp5vy Год назад

Wow what an awesomeness channel! Just checked last 4 uploaded videos and subscribed

@ChannelNews1 Год назад

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

@pekjinoei1042 Год назад

I think it's time to create a saver battery... New innovation will be needed...

@DelfinoGarza77 Год назад

Lithium burns when you put it in water

@hitherefrompointswest4805 9 месяцев назад

Amazing information and EXTREMELY helpful. Well done. It does make me think....if this kind of runaway is understood to be REAL why would we allow these things to be produced UNLESS we first, in the interest of public safety, see an effective method of combatting the flames? Water douses gas fires pretty quickly but this nightmare needs a better solution......and if it were ME I would have had a hold on any production of these things until the fire departments and us in general had Fire Extingushing solutions available to make this all safe. NOT GOOD> we are a world of fools

@RustigeSwerwer 9 месяцев назад

Excellent video. Thank you

@ewright4108 2 месяца назад

In the old days Halon gas was used (still is in aviation). You either pulled a handle or it was self activated. You could factory fit a nitrogen bottle to do this but you might end up with a lot of dead car mechanics somewhere down the line.

@Squeezmo Год назад

Electrons don’t move much (4 cm/min). The energy passing thru bouncing between the forces around the electrons is what gives voltage-current.

@Littlefreetime Месяц назад

This would support the point of, Why the hell are these things out there in these quantities and these capacities, or sizes, when the ability to handle fires, thermal runaway, or disposal hasnt been thought through?

@taysooheetaysoohee1648 Год назад

Use foamtype fire extinguisher

@ScottO84 Год назад

Foam extinguishing agents are not effective enough at dissipating heat and cannot isolate the heat and ISC from oxygen.

@XmarkedSpot Год назад

Also, can anyone explain that sodium natrium conundrum to me? Does it relate to the the missing I in Al and if so how so?

@AidanRatnage Год назад

So a 9V battery is an actual battery and not a cell?

@lrmackmcbride7498 Год назад

Correct

@patrickmulholland1840 7 месяцев назад

with a process of thermal runaway process there is really nothing would make any difference until the process is over fact trust me on this one

@phillyphil1513 Год назад

1:42 - "LIQUID HOT MAGMA...!!!" (A. Powers/M. Myers/Dr.Evil voice)

@abcjelly 3 месяца назад

thank u for using celsius 🙏🙏

@goodflop255 16 дней назад

When they do catch fire it happens so fast that it is often impossible to escape. Not a place for young kids or older adults. Even young fit people have to be quick and lucky to get out before the inferno and toxicity is released. Should not be allowed in condo or apartment building underground parking lots and only to be recharged outside and away from buildings.

@sarchelsami 8 месяцев назад

Grate , Grate Lessons , many, many thanks för your vidio

@mikehunt9392 7 месяцев назад

Do you ever feel like a linear equation trying to make it an exponential world 😅

@petersmythe6462 Год назад

I can tell you right now throwing water into a giant alkali metal fire is not the most brilliant plan ever conceived.

@ChannelNews1 Год назад

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

@hristina24 2 месяца назад

Great video, small T-shirt

@MrDaiseymay 10 месяцев назад

PUZZLING---WHY WASN'T THIS DANGER DISCOVERED DURING THE TESTING PHASE ?

@seaplaneguy1 Год назад

How much energy is given off during burning than what is stored in use. For example, if a battery pack is 100 kwh, how many Kwh of heat are given off when the battery burns? 10000? 100:1?

@TransGaymerGrace 2 месяца назад

Honestly this is so interesting. I love how you really make the dangers clear in this video. I just started a robotics class and this video amoung others was used as a kind of intro/safety warning and just wow, this has been such a great resouce for my education that you have provided, I though you deserved me finding it again and thanking you. thank you, so so much!

@waynegnarlie1 29 дней назад

Would liquid nitrogen would quickly extinguish this type of fire?

@noahriding5780 6 месяцев назад

Is there more than one type of Lithium battery? I ask because its not just electric vehicle car batteries that catch fire, but also ebikes. And there's also lithium deep cycle batteries in solar stuff. So is there more than one kind of lithium battery? I've heard people claim that solar deep cycle batteries that are lithium are a different kind than lithium ev batteries... but it doesn't seem like that could be true.

@thekaxmax Год назад

pressure valve: so it's not a tech issue but a design one. And this is why research is well on the way to use an electrolyte solvent that isn't water. Ionic liquids are much much safer.

@II00I00 9 месяцев назад

great video

@wbwarren57 Год назад

Electric vehicles are great! Just as long as they’re never allowed to park in underground parking garages, normal, parking, garages, or next to each other in any parking lot. Electric vehicles are great! Oh, and never put them onto ships or onto car carriers on the road. Electric vehicles are great! Oh, also never charge them inside your garage at your house. Electric vehicles are great!

@BigEightiesNewWave Год назад

Fun fact, when owners walks off you can pull the plug and toss it on ground OR plug in and charge on their bank account.

@garybailey4524 8 месяцев назад

Great video!

@chrishosking6842 3 месяца назад

With the right equipment and training you can put out an EV battery fire in under an hour. Remember there are over 280,000 ICE fires every year in the US alone (Causing Explosions & Death). EV fires only make up

@RobertKohut 11 месяцев назад

The water didn't put them out. It (the fire) just died due to it using all of it's fuel and ability to remain self sustaining!! 🙂

@greeceuranusputin Год назад

I'm wondering if EVs could be mandated to have a fire department port that will allow firemen to flood the battery compartment without having to tear the car apart.

@Ceelvain Год назад

Wait! Are they throwing *water* at a *lithium* battery fire?

@williamlangley2044 Год назад

Ooh you see the problem to, with lithium + water=fire also 😮

@lfemomo77 Год назад

You need to give your editor a raise

@EcoHouseThailand Год назад

The 2 biggest EV manufactures are BYD - 100% lithium iron phosphate batteries (LFP) - and Tesla whose best selling models by far are the standard range model 3 & Y that now use lithium iron phosphate (LFP). Ford has also moved to LFP. LFP are far safer than Li Ion just Google byd blade battery nail test

@carlosr8788 4 месяца назад

Everyone please like, subscribe & comment! Apparently this man can only afford child-size t-shirts? We must help him! Lol. Jk. Randomly found this video and ended up staying for the whole thing. Thanks

@RobertKohut 11 месяцев назад

Are Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries safer? Or are they immune from thermal runaway?

@MemoUnscripted Год назад

Awesome vid

@jamesevans4286 Год назад

GMG aluminum graphene. Zero chance of fire. Last 3x times longer. Charges 70x faster. Costs 4x less. Lithium ion batteries like an incandescent lightbulb. Solid state batteries. CFLs. Aluminum graphene battery. Like LED.

@stacysanders-w3e 8 месяцев назад

Lithium batteries are thermodynamically unstable. When not if they fail they explode or go into thermal runaway and burn until all of the chemicals are consumed.

@almighty3372 Год назад

I like your video, I have subscribed it......a must action!!!!!!

@reginaldgraves1684 Год назад

Very interesting and thought provoking. How dangerous is it to allow personal electronicaI devices on aeroplanes or in our pockets for that matter. On a sartorial note, I wonder which companies are beneficiaries of trousers (pants) for adults which don't reach the waist; is it manufacturers of trousers by saving of material or manufacturers of pants by increased sales?

@Nmethyltransferase Год назад

The hip-hop beat with the Korean newscaster sounds like an unintentional K-Pop song. Wait... I'm the only one who thinks so? Just me..? No, yeah... I-it's cool~ Yeah, right... It's fine. Carry on.

@kucami1 Год назад

You're not the only one. I thought it was cool too. Just didn't know how to put a finger on it! Also, how did you decide on that awesome screen name?

@GrantSR Год назад

So, why is it that LiFePo batteries are supposedly so much less likely to catch on fire?

@Kenneth-ts7bp Год назад

Nice!

@spadress 7 месяцев назад

what exactly (what metal oxide and why) is contained in the cathode, that releases oxygen?

@javelinXH992 6 месяцев назад

It’s mostly the ones that contain cobalt oxide that are subject to thermal runaway. The cobalt oxide breaks down at raised temperature, releasing oxygen that then reacts with the electrolyte. If a lot of that happens, then it all gets out of control pretty fast. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries are much safer - no cobalt oxide, but not immune to fire.

@theofficialmechelle Год назад

The sped up voice over hilarious 🤣 Good stuff #KnowledgemadeFun

@Noneblue39 Год назад

that was great video

@ChannelNews1 Год назад

as a mechanic I discuss the problems with electric vehicles in depth on my home page vid.

@shadowshatto 9 месяцев назад

We shouldn't be using inventions we don't understand enough to make failsafes to and I don't mean like a mere pressure release when it's more complicated than that.

@ALucas73 11 месяцев назад

John B Goodenough invented the lithium battery in 1976.

@cotswoldsafety5749 Год назад

This was excellent for non scientists like me.

@fikipilot Год назад

Macro- can fire departments have new technology created so they can use liquid nitrogen to put out the ev fire? Two teslas crash and catch fire. Spray with liquid nitrogen... would it work?

@ScottO84 Год назад

While it may be possible, the costs of such technology would exceed what most agencies could afford. The same pumper we bought for just over $800k in 2016 built today would cost ~$1.3 million. The costs have gotten astronomical while the tax bases have become less able and less willing to provide those funds.

@diydantex6150 Год назад

OK so converting my Prius battery from Nickel to Lithium cells might not be a good idea? You give me something to think about.

@jagmarc Год назад

Because they cram in far far too many electron ions and anti-ions into a confined space - the battery - and the ions/anti ions far too close each other is like an explosive. Even with rockets the oxidiser is kept separate and only mixed at the last moment.

@michaeld5888 Год назад

The lead acid battery in our cars was one big cell but who knows now. It just seems that the rush to electric with all the activists in a hysterical panic funk giving short deadlines meaning just lashing together thousands of these torch batteries is a make do bodge. The tech seems to be all chemistry with no sign of any overall physical design thinking on an integrated safe module specifically designed for a car. Maybe it is not possible but these masses of single little cells wired in series to create mega voltages just do not look safe. I would certainly not feel safe sitting over a mass of them and I worry about members of my family that do. I would not leave a single camera battery on charge over night unattended and sleep safe let alone 3,000+. The fact that most non OEM camera battery charges leave out the thermistor pin and some batteries dummy the output shows how sloppy standards can get to save costs and make the sale.