Why are there two different Webley Mark IV revolvers? With firearms expert Jonathan Ferguson. 

Hey Jonathan! I was the bloke who asked you that question when I got the chance to visit last month, it was a great day and meeting you was the highlight of it. I could tell you were in a bit of a rush so thank you so much for taking the time to answer my question and even post a follow up, and thanks again to you and the rest of the staff at the Royal Armouries for making the trip an incredible visit!

My father brought his .455 home after the war . He had a German pistol that he used and he put the .455 to one side as 9mm sten ammo was plentiful so he could practice with his captured pistol . I asked him if he'd ever used the .455 in anger. He said he'd let fly a few times but doubted he'd ever hit anyone . Although he did say he'd hit a German on the head with the butt once as he tried to climb up the side of Dad's armoured car . Dad said that as the chap wasn't wearing a helmet he might have killed that one. He handed in his German pistol and claimed the webley was lost in action .

Absolutely brilliant video. British naming systems really are subject all by themselves. So we'll explained by Jonathan

The naming designations for firearms always fascinate me! Great video as always!

Now that was fascinating - can't believe you actually did a whole video just to clear up a visitor's question satisfactorily, that is way above and beyond Jonathan! Kudos to you and your professionalism... Your video is engaging, interesting and informative and the explanation as to the model numbers is very clear, which, given the ... vagaries(?) of the British procurement system nomenclature is probably not far short of a miracle ;-) Thanks so much for sharing this, it is very much appreciated - keep up the great work!

Thanks for that. I learnt to shoot in 1967 using a Webley mkiv. There has been some confusion in my mind since then over the designation , which you have now cleared up for me. My pistol shooting tutor at the time carried one in a shoulder holster every day as an MOD doorman, and shot his own one at Bisley on the weekends.

So the full size/frame Webley is smaller than the pocket Webley which is bigger. Makes sense in a Monty Python-ish way. And the smaller full size/frame fires a larger caliber bullet whereas the bigger pocket pistol fires a smaller bullet. I guess the British really took to heart the adage: Confusion to the enemy.

Fortunately, Webley had the good taste _not_ to turn around and copy Enfield's No. 2 Mk I* version, possibly because they recognized that double-action-only revolvers are daft. :) I've long had a fondness for the Webley top-break revolvers. I have one of the .380 Mk IVs, but I don't shoot it any more, as it's pretty worn and doesn't quite keep proper time any longer. Would love to have one of the later marks in .455, but sadly I'm in the US, where virtually all of those that are to be found have been ruined.

Always makes my Wednesday :) Thanks guys, keep up the good work.

Ahhhh that clears things up quite a bit for me The first pistol I ever purchased was a Webley MkIV in 38. And I was always confused as to the timeline to it’s adoption i.e where it fit into the nomenclature seeing as the MK VI had already been adopted and made before this one It was a commercial naming system that coincided by coincidence That solves a question for me Thanks and hello from The Australian commonwealth! P.s love the rack of SLRs behind you Very cool

That was an exceptional explanation.

Would love a side by side/takedown of the Enfield #2 and the Mk IV .38!

Nomentclature reminds me of the old army joke,"bedpacks should be made up as laid down in standing orders."

haven't clicked so fast for a long time! hello there, jonathan :D

thank you.

The Webley Mk IV is easily the coolest revolver ever made. I used to own an airsoft replica which was beautiful but had to sell it on years ago, still miss having it and plinking with it

Jonathan, could you shed any light on what exactly the Mk I and Mk II pocket models are please? i had to do a bit of research on Webley revolvers whilst sorting out the IMFDB page into the sepatarate .38 and .455 marks and was not able to find any examples of what the Mk I and II .38s where. It seems like with the "pocket" models they just started at the Mk III.

Best job ever!

So like m1 in the USA

Hood god how big were pockets in 1932? I can barely fit a lighter and keys in mine.

Anytime some needs an iconically English revolver for a movie hero the Wesley is just there

Do you have any examples of county's capturing or purchasing a rifle from another country and reconfiguring or rechambering for their own use. Such as a enfeild in 7.62x54?

Have you got a genuine Webley “British Bulldog “ you can show us ?

Information on webley mark 4 revolver .32 caliber

The U.S.A. loves to reuse designations as well. M1 GARAND RIFLE M1 CARBINE M1 THOMPSON SMG M1 ABRAMS TANK ..... M2 BROWNING MACHINEGUN M2 CARBINE M2 REISING SMG M2 BRADLEY FIGHTING VEHICLE

I have a Wembley chambered in .38 S&W or least that is what I was told it was and it shoots fine using the very limited supply of ammunition I can find. I believe the serial number makes it a 1950s or so manufacture. Does that sound right? Were the military .38s chambered in the S&W cartridge. As another observation the trigger pull on the gun when fully cocked is dangerously light. With my pistol I would never ever pull the hammer fully back unless I was on the range already pointing at the target. Breathe heavily and it will go off. Best not to ask how I know that.

I think I had the Enfield pistol that was double Acton only !

I have one that is Mark IV .38 145/200. any idea the difference?

What was the Waverly Mach 4 380 38 worth

Mmmmmm I do love me a good story of shenanigans

what about the mk v no one can tell me about it iv got one

so they had 2 guns, with 3 identical designations.

I was playing a game called Pavlov Shack and I used the Webley Mk6, and when I died, a guy picked it up and said “cowboy! I’m a cowboy” also some other people has called the Panzerschreck an “RPG”

So that is why I got the wrong amo for. my mark IV revolver. at least nothing realy dangearous happens :)

I never thought I would ever doze off while listening to a program on guns... but hey, there's a first time for everything. PS. Couldn't a buyer of these pistols stipulate the barrel length?

Very geeky very semantic me like

:)

Got to appreciate the dedication to take someone's question and consider the answer given at the time, using the platform to elaborate and give more context. Insightful and interesting as always! Also I like that RU-vid's subtitles keep calling them "Wobbly revolvers".

You’ve got two hands, so you’ve got to have two Webley revolvers so one hand doesn’t feel left out. They also need to be slightly different so you remember which goes in which hand. It’s not rocket science.

Americans naming their guns: "You'll be a M1"

I feel another book coming on , Webley Pistols from 1790 to the 21st Century by JF would look great next to My copy of "From Thorneycroft to SA80 " Thanks Jonathan , I'm really enjoying the book and these episodes in equal measure . Stay Safe, Stay Well & keep on publishing .

Back in 1979 I was issued a Webley in 38 cal. as my sidearm when I became an armored truck driver in Johannesburg, South Africa. We called it a '38 short', which in the US is technically a 380 auto cartridge. But it was a rimmed cartidge. I think the correct caliber designation was 38 Smith & Wesson. Maybe someone can enlighten me? It has been many years. The gun functioned fine, and was my first experience with handguns.

Having a small collection of Webleys, including a Mk. IV carried by a RAF pilot, this is some great information to have and answers a question I've long been curious about.

That rack of FAL/L1A1's behind him... how am I supposed to concentrate on a Webley with this gratuitous pornography?

Hi. It could be interesting to see you collaborate with other, similar RU-vidrs. ^^ Thank you.

You mention a Webley catalog with a date that should render it public domain in all countries. Are these digitized anywhere?

That was really interesting. I especially enjoyed the part where I felt like I did the first time quantum mechanics was explained to me. But, that's not on you. Seriously, I think you did everything possible to explain it.

Video about Webley revolvers posted on Webley Wednesday

I doubt that any military engagement was decided by who had the superior handguns. Still, the jump to .38 is VERY strange. By the 20s, .38 special was pretty damn' standard, and stayed in use by US police for another 40-50 years. But the British reached back to the ancient, Smith and Wesson black powder .38 from 1877. Sure Colt had marketed a 'Super Police' version with a 200 gr bullet. But still...

Wembley mk4 often stamped “war finish”as not up to usual finish standard.

that's a pocket revolver??? the British had pretty big pockets at that time.

Jonathan, thanks for bringing out those Webleys. I trust you have some of the other .380 pocket models in the Royal Armouries collection, such as ones with shorter barrels and small or even tiny grips. Back in the 1970's, when I got my first air rifle (also a Webley), Webley's Mk.IV .38 revolver was still listed in their catalogue, in its full sized and smaller pocket versions. There was also a .22 target version of the full sized one, that I quite fancied owning, but never did. I think i did get to shoot a borrowed one once though.

I don’t know if Jonathan reads the comments himself, but seeing as this video is answering a technical question about Webley pistols, I will chance this one here. There seems to be a consensus that the ‘WG’ series stands for ‘Webley-Government’ but there is another view that is stands for ‘Webley-Green’. I see comments stating that the latter view is definitely incorrect (e.g. on IMFDB), and even Ian McCollum refers to it as the Government model. However Dowell in his book ‘The Webley Story’ states that the Webleys themselves called it the Webley Green (which is consistent with models where an important part was devised by a particular person e.g. the Webley-Kaufman). Additionally the WG was not a Government model (although this could have been a marketing strategy - and yes, I am aware that it was purchased privately by British officers who had to furnish their own sidearms, both pistols and swords). So which is correct (and based on what)? If the former- why was it called a government model when it was for the private market. If the latter, who was Green and why was it named after him?

I have an interesting Mk IV with 3 inch barrel and approx half-size grip frame (ex bank security gun) that has a strange rectangular cross-bolt safety ?button? on the frame. Was this the only revolver with this style of safety ?? (I am aware of revolvers with an actual safety LEVER on the frame)

Used the Enfield. 38 in N Ireland in the 1960s

How frustrating it must be to be a firearms enthusiast in Britain. Hello from Texas.

I have a super weird Webley Mk 1 that is threaded and Navy marked. I bought it really cheap and I figured it was bubba'd but upon closer inspection it looks factory.. The finish all matches and it is really well done. I'm not sure why it's threaded? Possibly a flare/line device? I can't find anything on it online anywhere.

The General Post Office Museum in Dublin has the WWII model in .38 listed for the MKIV in its 1916 Uprising display.

I've got an ex-Singapore Police Mk.IV .38/200.

Always learn so much on these videos, thankyou Jonathan and Royal Armouries

Jonathan, perhaps you could do a video about the HK USP series of hand guns? I heard rumors of the SAS using them in the 90’s and on to the 2000’s. Also their popularity in video games, would be great to have you explain their history and usage throughout various military units/hostage rescue units around the world. Thanks from a big fan!

Thank you, very interesting short history of Webley and Enfield revolvers.

Hi Jonathan..I'm from Philippines and I have in my position right now a Webley & Scotllin mark 4 .38 "767" and had a serial no.152726..im planning to sell it..but I don't know how much?...can you help me with it pls?..

Hi, please help! I have a Webley revolver chambered in 455 with rounded butt and 6 inch barrel.. lower is marked Webley MKIV patent and the upper is marked MKVI. All parts have matching serials (5 digit starting with 8). What do I have??

Many years ago I had the enfield revolver in .38 caliber. Interestingly the hammer had been "bobbed" which is to say the hammer spur was not present. The ex serviceman from whom I bought it from said it was for tank issue to prevent catching on clothing in tight spaces. Its lack of weight made it hard on the hand to shoot.

You think that's confusing? Try working in ISP Tech Support back when there were /five/ versions of Windows 95.. 95, 95A, 95B, 95B [yep same name but with rudimentary USB support], 95C. And no they didn't play nicely together..

The first gun I ever purchased was an Enfield No 2 Mk1* and, while it wasn't covered in this video, it was really neat to see why I mistook it for a Webley for such a long time.

I've got a mk4 and a mk6. I'm amazed that these guns seem a bit flimsy compared to modern revolvers. Way more intricate machining on the webleys but tanks they are not.

These are both pistols I'd like to add to my collection. I actually have an Enfield no2 mk1* so I feel like these would go perfectly

I have a mark IV chambered in .32 S&W Long can you tell me anything about it.

Easy enough Mark IV came after the mark 1, which came after the mark IV, of course there were marks 1,2 and 3 before that. All basically the same pistol. Just varying sizes and calibers. They were used in at least 3 wars. The mark IV in the Boer and second world war. Easy. Just don't think.

My question is if got a 380 that looks like webley but you can not cock the hammer my dad bought it from defence auction years ago I got from him on his license it was classed as a webley, when I got a license they changed the make to engfield can you help

Nice presentation. I own both, and being in America can use them. Lovely guns.

The same person who named these must have gone on to name all the Fast and Furious sequels.

Watching this for the 3498th to try understand it...

Why is the "pocket revolver" bigger. 😂

Yes a "pocket revolver", but you have to wear the special trousers.

No different than all the different M1's in US service.

Quick question, can one support the royal armouries if we are not a citizen of the UK? I'd love to make a donation but I'm in Canada and I'm not sure if it makes a difference or not. I do know I can't claim it on my taxes though. Thank you guys as always for brightening up my day.

is there anywhere in the uk where a novice could turn up and shoot one of these under supervision?

Where are the Mars automatic I want all three to see

Got to love the John Woo screen cap look like you are ready to do action film

Thanks for the video mate. You are appreciated as is your work and videos.

I should buy both.

Try US WW2 M3 for a laugh

Good expaination. I have a MKVI in 455 and a war finish MKIV in 38/200 and I knew there was a MKIV in 455. The USA produced two revolvers in WWI that had the same designation. The Model 1917 Revolvers were two different Revolvers chambered in 45ACP made by Colt and Smith and Wesson. I own a Colt 1917. These two revolvers were made because not enough 1911 pistols could be produced. Even more confusing there was a model 1917 Rifle being made at the same time.

Gese are poplar in india

I have an 1899 Webly MK IV that has been converted to shoot .45 ACP by shaving the back of cylinder Has to use moon clips Traded an old shotgun for it. I’ve shot it some , no hot loads, shoots well I used to breed horses and have shot lots of horses with it using bird shot lifeboat survival cartridges. Drops them dead instantly

So, just to simplify matters, there are THREE designations "Mk. IV" applying to Webley revolvers. Webley's Mk IV in the service revolver series; the gun is adopted, and happens to be Mk IV in the quite separate Army sequence. Then there is Webley's Mk IV pocket revolver (they having two different lines, which seem never to get mentioned in the naming of parts), which gets adopted with the manufacturer's name, not a separate military designation. That military naming is, by then, completely out of line with the standard designation for Army revolvers, but it would, I guess, have been far too easy to call it Revolver No. 3. Of course, they couldn't have called it Revolver No. 2 Mk 1, because that would have been to admit that the Enfield was a knock-off. Glad to be able to clear that up for everyone.

This reminds me of somewhat of cars - Mazda's for example - or even something as mundane as a Ford Escort - look very very different even with a similar or even identical label attached & the only identifier is the model year or the series number - which isn't even really attached to the Car's ID accept in the user manual and on the engine VIN plate,. Not quite the same but is what sprung to mind as I had trouble finding the proper year image of an old Mazda recently due to confusing naming.

And … what about Colonel Boxer’s alleged theft of Eley’s centrefire primer technology? 🙂

Happens in the electronics world, too. RCA (Radio Corporation of America), when it was the dominate force in American, if not world, electronics, made some unique memory tubes, for early computers, and called them "Selectrons". These are very rare tubes and used in only one computer (Johnniac) for the Rand Corporation. Years later, RCA reused that name, as a brand, for common vacuum tubes (used in radios & TVs), that didn't quite meet the quality specs of RCA branded tubes. Of course, there's always GM, which in the early 1980s, went into a deal with Toyota, and resold Corollas, as Chevy Novas, while Chevy Novas, of earlier years, was a substantially more beefy road machine !

I have forgotten so much about Weblyeys. But I shot a lot 380 455 RIC 38 eyleys black powder stuff reliads. The mk IV. The short MKIV used to get sold as Webley Greener I think. Ive had one in 36cal centerfire with arabic writing. Never got my hand on a Fosberrry, to shoot but looked them over. Or the auto Webley

curfuffle

I have both revolvers in my collection. I had always wondered why they both had the same designation. When I think of a British issued handgun, Webley's are the first that comes to mind. When holding the .455, I can see where a soldier would have confidence facing a German in a trench of the Great War.

I used to shoot the .22 calibre version of the Webley Mk IV 'Pocket' revolver when an active member of the London Transport Rifle Club. This is a rare, seldom seen variant, and had a six inch barrel, with adjustable rear sight. It was a superb revolver , only sold when our section disbanded. I now own a deactivated example of exactly the same weapon.

Jonathan do you know of any infantry gun where a electric engine is moving the bolt?

Thanks for a bit of clarification on these guns and their baffling designations. I would love to own any of these but here on the USA they go for way crazy prices. Well maybe not actually "way crazy" but in comparison to my discretionary income ....yup.

My Grandfather pointed one of those at my Father once, for bringing his daughter back after 10.o'clock , he didn't do it again.

Fascinating stuff.