I always love how you show that readopting some of these old school practices can actually ENHANCE the story that emerges from play. I also shouted, “YES!” aloud when you made the point about the party surviving because they were good players, not because they have good characters. These are role playing GAMES and it feels like the focus of so much discussion is about optimal builds, game balance, and the like. This particular aspect of being a good player is often brushed aside, but not by YOU! Thanks for another great video!
Good observation, and one that opens a fun can of worms. An experienced PLAYER with a low-level character is a very, very different phenomena than a noob being given a above-level-one character to start with. As a personal rule, I always, always start noobs at level 1. They will never know what all of their abilities, spells, and equipment are for if they're bombarded with a ton of stuff at once. They have to "level up" as players just as much (if not more so) than their characters level up as characters.
Thank you for the kind words. Please pass this video on. It's not a hot take or about CR, so it will struggle to find an audience--even though I think it's pretty useful. Cheers!
True! I made an arcane trickster rogue for my friend for a one-shot adventure. He cleverly pushed a Gloomstalker into focusing on our barbarian instead of grabbing our stunned druid through unexpected use of his mage hand.
@@Z1gguratVert1go 100% agreed. I've seen so many people say "Just start at level 3, the previous ones are too hard!" but you don't appreciate a powerup that you didn't earn!
Once I designed non euclidean dungeons, I needed maps, diagrams and tables so I knew where my players were, but the great thing was that one of the players was trying to map the dungeon for themselves, this was great because it confused the hell out of them, they even asked if I had made a mistake, I said no. It was a horror scenario and they were in an extra dimensional space so the clever player/character worked out what was going on, and by trial and error made it out, I was actually impressed by his logic.
I've recently grown tired of the 5e version for many of the reasons you state in your videos. I LOVE the added element of death being decided by a simple decision of left or right! OSE and DCC have renewed my desire to keep playing!
The DMG gives alternate rules which I use, healing kit dependency and the one that makes a long rest a week instead of 8 hours. I add a few more bits and bobs, sometimes run a level 0 too. Only reasons I use 5e is that it's simple, popular and current, otherwise 3.5 and pathfinder all the way (for D&D) or run another more fitting game.
@@paulkemp8520 3.5e Green Ronin " Vampire Psion," source book. Optional rule on " Staking a Vampire." minus 4 to hit, it is a full round action and provokes an attack of opportunity, follow with the vampire must make a Will save vs damage dealt or fall unconscious even at full hp. So a shield wall of PCs and a back up using True Strike spell with a wooden stake spear or crossbow to drop the vampire. Also of note, my last group gaming shop 15 years ago played Whitewolf/World of Darkness: Vampire d10 system which had one hit kill rules, so we blended them into our D&D games. So a single point damage call shot to the neck leads to a Fort save DC:10+1 dmg dealt or die cause of a nick artery. System of full round action, adjusted with the feats Improved Initiative, and weapon focus, along with rogues sneak/flank attack modifiers and bluff with quick draw, then it is Attack roll vs defender's Reflex save, then dmg vs Fort save to see if it goes into kill effect. Although wise dmg causes temporary constitution dmg. There are videos covering people in real life that took arrows into their heads and still remain conscious and in pain, along with small caliber gun shots at point blank range. My shop did have a bit grim dark where PCs flop on the ground from mortal wounds for dramatic effect. Samuria show downs of quick draw single cut effect kills and a Phantom of the Oprea where PCs tried to strangle the other from behind by grabbing the neckless of the stage singing rival leading to a Dillinger pistol shot to the back of the head. Reflex save turn the 1d6 shot dmg into a glancing blow which took off an ear, and a hip toss put the sneak attacker through a third story window. We used the WotC Star Wars rpg rules of wound point dmg on critical roll failure and due to a failed Reflex save roll, the fall dmg went strait to the constitution score for dmg. Other note when I ran a game at the shop, I had everyone start with three of five PCs each, with a bonus 10 temporary points to each ability score along with a bonus of of 50hp. They knew it was going to be a horror slasher game with gruesome one hit kills for dramatic effects. a.) Peek around a corner and failed a Reflex save and have half your head took off by a thrown great axe. b.) Exhaustion of str/con during wrestling with a large dog, failure leads to a quick death by a bite to the neck. " How to kill PCs without using hit points. " c.) Rolling down a staircase being swam by rats in the dark , take 1d6 from rolling down the stairs, then there is dealing with the rats follow with 1d10 or more point of Wisdom temporary sanity points dmg from dealing with the rats in the dark. " Call of Cthulhu small squid, carrion crawler crab or other freakish monster. Go with slow combat kills of being stalked. d.) Everyone plays a stander poker playing card casting a vote of odds vs evens in voting if hit points would save the PC from that given death trap monster or not. Closing note my old DM will run a dungeon where you could kill off everyone there, or team up with lesser goblin/humanoids and take out a bigger threat to everyone there. Classic game " Twilight Citadelle," where you have dragon cultist growing a cursed tree, a baby red dragon, kobolds, goblins, and the PCs adventures. With enough players at the game shop, everyone pulled an index card to see which faction they were playing that day. One player PCing a human necromancer, " Did that over size bleeping lizard just F-ing Meowed at me like a bleeping over size house cat ?!" Gnome, " The baby red dragon is playing Cat & Mouse with us." Necromancer, " Ah . F**K ! I know what cats play with mice and birds result like."
I love mapping. Also, years ago, my GM would let you pay to have a spell cast. 100 go per lever, so a second level spell was 100 for level one plus 200 for level 2, so 300 gold to have cast for you. I saved and saved until I had the gold to have continual light cast on a small gem. One of my most prized possessions.
Old school D&Der here, living with the modern D&D relatively peacefully. I do miss having someone at the table designated as the mapper as we adventured through huge dungeons full of loot and monsters. I appreciate the "story-time" narrative style that 5E has fostered, but sometimes it was a blast to just kick doors down, find treasure and magic items, then use all of that to build a castle, then a kingdom, then an empire (multiple times). Mapping has always been something I love about the game. Whether building as a DM or recording as a Player. It saved our butts numerous times when we were running away from the beholder and its disintegration ray or a very upset dragon that wanted its vorpal sword back. :D
I'm currently playing Elden Ring, and I'm surprised to see how effective light management is in that game. Dungeons and caves can be very dark, so you must choose to either carry a torch or carry your shield (or two handed weapon). You can also use a belt lantern, which you don't need to hold with your hand, but can't iluminate as far as the torch. Having to decide the most effective option for every situation really makes the game much more enjoyable, challenging and scary. I wish I could emulate that feeling in my D&D games.
Cheat by adjusting the brightness & contrast of your monitor so your PC doesn't need touches or night vision head gear. If your place has a basement, or an unlighted back alley, take your players out into the dark with normal flashlights, then light a candle and turn off the flashlight to show them the light difference. Then blow out the candle.
Dragons Dogma is another great game for that!! I haven't played elden ring, but, from what I've seen, I think Dragon's Dogma is a better game, imo haha
I took the Professor's POV with my current campaign, up front in the session zero I told the players I (the DM) own the darkness. All races (Pathfinder 1e) that have Darkvision have been changed to Low-Light Vision. Torches and the light descriptors spells are now in use.
I've always thought of the mappers job as the most fun one in the group. I remember making maps with grid-paper when I played the wizardry games years ago and it was the most engaging part of the game. I guess I don't understand why a group wouldn't like doing that.
My players never liked mapping. I think they felt a compulsion to get the map "right" and worrying over every square was not fun. But as a DM I miss it.
Our group has been using Ironsworn which has a supplement called Delve which has a random dungeon maker that simply describes the area and generates threats based on the theme and location type. We have been playing more theater of the mind "play to discover." It's been fun and easy on my new no-prep GM style. I sometimes think being too abstract takes away some of the tactical decisions, but I work those into the narrative as best as I can. We've been having a blast and I've been enjoying playing solo, too.
Making maps & having to rely on adventure gear (ie torches, iron spikes & the 10’ Pole) is a major part of my memory of my first session of play in 1977. For me it isn’t really Dungeons & Dragons without mapping and limited resources, or simple character sheets. Every player should play or run a few sessions of OD&D just to get a feel of what it was like in the beginning.
In my day, we had to craft our own dice from wood of an oak tree we cut down with a rusty butter knife before we even thought about starting a campaign! No, actually I sort of agree with you. Altough I agreed with you when AD&D came out and that "PHB" thing heh. Always loved maps in the modules and grid paper (and pencils...I make a lot of mistakes).
@@AyarARJ Wood? We would've killed for wood! In my day, we had to break off pieces of our own femurs if we wanted dice! (Yorkshiremen skit from Monty Python - a classic!)
I couldn't agree with you more Professor. This is exactly where 5E lost me. Too many things break the opportunity for tension, and danger, which for me personally are some of the best parts of the game. Mapping is a great tool for exactly the reason you said, and that was a great example. Great video, thanks!
Mapping rooms and hallways in game is one thing (though not without its issues). But to map caves in game, etc. that aren't uniform can be a nightmare. I am open to hear how other DMs handle mapping during game play. This video came at a perfect time for me as I am in the process of starting another campaign.
I approach both the same way. When I generate random dungeons from the DMG tables I just make sure the cave walls are not uniform. A cave is still going to be effectively an X by Y sized room. Hallways as tunnels with the same approach.
A simplified point-to-point map is probably the way to go regarding caves. Don't focus on all the winding directions of the cave corridors so much. Instead, give a mean heading for what direction the next cavern is in from the previous one and just draw a straight line between them for sanity's sake. Hand-waving constant curvy and uneventful cave passages is easier. Notably if you, as GM, made such a point-to-point map from the original beforehand.
Remove the abstraction. The turns and bends do not matter, if you remove all that fluff mapping a dungeon is the same as reading an isometric map. You only focus on the thing that matter even if there is clutter built up all around it. For mapping just make yourself a simple legend. Square for rooms, circle for intersections, triangle for traps - it really doesn't matter just what ever you are able to understand. I start outside a cave I draw a square and label it entrance, we walk for 40ft or 10mins to an intersection I draw a line to a circle, I label the line with the distance or tie what ever I am tracking. This intersection let say is a T, but i can see from my torch both paths seems to bend and turn like crazy. To draw it, it still just gonna be straight lines to another shape for me. from circle 1 i take a left and all the turns and bends there is no other path I will end up at square 1 (room 1) the line just circle to square just tells me the distance/time it took me to get here. I didn't have to draw an insane amount of twists or spirals that my DM describe. The important information the distance/time/location/path have all been recorded. We back track to the first intersection and go right following its insane path to a crossroads, again I draw another circle label it 2 - record the travel data on the line and then pick another route to follow. You repeat this over and over again till you have fleshed out the map. If you need information on an area or route just ask your DM, a lot of published modules give dimensions or have maps that this data can be easily provided. When you have a map with data listed on it as a player you can make informed choices. Like which rooms have a high ceiling, what tunnels you can walk side by side or single file only. You may have to prompt a DM to give this extra info if you decided to do self-mapping, but if you have a smart group all these little details can make a huge difference in the long run. For safe places to rest, or advantages in combat or the shortest paths to take when fleeing.
The players map doesn't have to (and very well may not) be the same as the DM's map. Many a players map is scribbled on the back of a napkin or spare character sheet, coffee stained, parts erased until the paper tears. It's an abstract tool that simulates the characters inability to be entirely sure of their bearings and surroundings when underground.
@@brandonk9462 Absolutely agree with you just a little heads up, if you dont worry much about all the turns, bends and fluff you dont remove abstraction, you add abstraction, or you abstract from the specific. Its the other way around :)
I just want to say thank you! Ever since I've found your channel and adopted a lot of the rules you use, my gaming sessions have been the smoothest and most fun we've ever had. I use DCC's gritty, grimdark rules mixed with a little of different things you use, efficient character sheets, group initiative, pure hp, theater of the mind settings with my different dungeon terrain I've built, music ambience....everything. The world feels real and dangerous now. The rewards more rewarding. My players not being defined by a piece of paper is like a breath of fresh air. This is the first time I have ever had players actually cheering when something good happens, or running for their lives screaming when it goes bad. Thank you for everything you do!......and please keep doing it!
Great topic! Maps feel so integral to the hobby, but they’re only necessary as an aid-much like the character sheet. They’re not a thing to base your decisions on!
Looking forward to the world builder’s take on mapping. Just heard a interesting discussion of aphantasia and it might take a role in how much a player can deal with theatre of the mind and mapping.
I love the old school Infravision instead. You don't see in the dark, you can see heat signatures though, so torches and such are still needed to navigate and to actually understand what that heat signature is.
I feel like the simpler the ruleset, the easier it is to make new characters, thus the more challenging and deadly the game is allowed to be. Who wants to spend 30-45min making a 5e character, have that character die, and then needing to do it all again. It just doesn't happen. Thanks Professor!
I know it creates more bookkeeping, but mapping, note-taking, tracking torches/oil/candles, tracking encumbrance, diminishing supplies, etc. is all part of the game and what makes these expeditions dangerous. The map doesn't have to be surveyor-level, just as long as it can get you back to safety. *WARNING, Grumpy Comment Impending* I wouldn't be surprised if most young people these days expect the mapping to be automatic as it is in most computer RPGs. I remember in early computer RPGs (Ultima, Bard's Tale, etc.) you had to map the dungeons yourself on graph paper.
I think mapping was part of how Gygax ran his early games in his megadungeon, Castle Greyhawk. If characters wanted to explore an area that they made a note of in a previous session, they better know the way there. I also remember the rulebooks saying that a party needed a mapper and a "caller," someone who relayed declared actions from the players to the DM. This is also something no one does. I have to ask though. Isn't the rule about torches too "realistic" for a game that includes gigantic flying reptiles that breath fire, half-man half-horse creatures, and a woman with snakes for hair?
I think one of the reasons why we as DMs feel cheated with 5e's darkvision is because we forget to use appropriate rules: - Creatures with darkvision see darkness as dim light, and dim light as bright light. - Sight-based Percepcion checks made in dim light have disadvantage. - Sight-based passive Percepcion has a -5 penalty. - Vision is limited to shades of gray. - Being outside during the night is considered darkness, even with a full moon. If your players have races with darkvision and decide to go through the dungeon without any lightsource, they're gonna make lots of checks with disadvantage and everything will sneak on them since they have a harsh penalty on their passive perception. I always remind all of this to them before they enter a dark area, "Guys, you can go inside without any light if you want to, but this, this, and that will happen if you don't do so. Also, the enemies can spot your light from afar." Which leads them to decide if they're going to use the Light spell, a torch, a candle, a lamp, etc., since each one have different radiuses.
Indeed, it's always a good idea to carefully read the RAW! Your first point is the reason why my Cragmaw Hideout (in my version of The Lost Mine of Phandelver) was illuminated with wall bracket torches, even though Goblins have darkvision. These caves only appeared dimly lit to humans, but for Goblins there was enough light for them to see clearly, giving them a distinct advantage.
Loved mapping. It was something that my DM had me do and then I would leave the session with an awesome map that I drew and explored. Doesn't always work but it does add to that sense of exploration
One of the best parts of playing back in the day was comparing the players' maps against the actual map. Sometimes they would get it perfect and sometimes they would be SOOO off. My players also never used graph paper. It felt more authentic that way.
I love(d) mapping in DND. I am currently playing in a non-mapping game and at times I have trouble telling where we are. I find it less fun. It's workable but generally have less idea where we are. I've stopped worrying about where we are which disengages me from the game.
I've been playing since 2.0 and always loved the life or death resource management to the older editions. In my experience a lot of mapping can be circumvented by clever play such as leaving behind breadcrumbs or marking areas the party has been. I love the idea of good players over good characters, newer players won't appreciate the struggle of keeping your 10 stat average character alive through clever play and lucky rolls, where every session felt like you were cheating death. It's something I've been trying to experience again.
Savage worlds: you can take up to 4 wounds before becoming unconscious, no hp, just wounds, each wound hurts your potential roll outcomes, AND you can take multiple wounds due to lucky rolls highly reccomend
Oooooh I REALLY like the idea of players having to make the map themselves. I don't know how I never thought of that. I recently started running a Daggerfall (Elderscrolls) campaign and if my players get into any dungeon delving I will absolutely have them be making their own map. Also, Daggerfall players: don't worry I'm not going with the Byzantine, antfarm style dungeons WHILE having them map it themselves lol. Crushing the characters' sanity is one thing but the _players'_ is a bit too much!
Professor, Longtime listener, first time caller(?). Thank you for your lessons; they've helped me understand what I've been searching for in RPGing. Can you please walk me through how to keep time? What are the logistics of how you, the DM, keep track of in-game time? Thank you:^) - Adam
Use the ten minute turn. Every interaction with a dungeon room takes about ten minutes. PCs come into a room and search it, ten minutes. PCs come into a room and have a fight, ten minutes. PCs come into a room and interact with the orb of dragonkind sitting on a shelf in the room? Ten minutes. This means you only have to record time in ten minute increments, much simpler.
I use one minute, fifteen minutes and one hour 'turns' in dungeon exploration for things like wandering monsters. An exploration turn is 15 minutes, which generally includes moving to and exploring a room, 1 minute actions are a part of that 15 mimute turn, and an hour action is four turns for the purposes of monsters moving and whatnot.
Darkvision, Infravision, Ultravision, SuperDuperVision... all of that is the bane of D&D. One reason why I like "Gygax '75" aka 3 LBBs + Chainmail only. However, if I ran OSE or Rules Cyclopedia (@ Professor DM: do you dig the Rules Cyclopedia?) I would just remove Infravision. It's just terrible. It incentivizes playing non-humans more than any other factor, and takes away the most compelling aspect of being in a dungeon: you're underground, in the dark. Otherwise you might as well be fighting Orcs in Stalingrad, a warren of above-ground rooms and passages. It shouldn't just be "rooms and corridors"... it's the blackest dark you've ever experienced, isolating and unnerving, and then: the eyes....
That is the major difference between old school and new school. If you play an OSR game, you become a better PLAYER through experience vs. new school your CHARACTER becomes better through experience.
Here's my problem: Torches do not burn for a mere 20 minutes. Why? Because logically, real-life torches are covered in tar. The only way you could put them out was to douse them in water. This is why, in any medieval movie, whether fantasy or historically, you usually see a bucket of some kind underneath sconces. If left to burn completely, a torch should last at least a full 24 hours, maybe more, depending on how well airflow moves into or through an underground room. Tar does not burn out very quickly. It's one reason why ships in ancient time periods would catch on fire, and then take a few hours to sink, because tar is used to seal the hull of a ship. And when a ship would catch on fire, it was usually the tar that burned, not the wood -- at least, until the tar was consumed by fire.
It's also not a terrible idea to make abstract maps where it's essentially a flow chart connected by lines. The different lines would represent different corridors and turns without you having to draw the rooms to a certain scale or draw out the hallways
Yes and no. I really miss some of the old tropes, like players making their maps and the like, but on the other hand, I hate the administration chores that we took back in the time... Regarding maps, I like using all kinds and sorts, theater of the mind, black on white (look for Dyson, those interested) and very nice detail colorful ones... in the last season, I put them on a sidewise map (arcade platform video game-ish) as they were fighting a roper on the ceiling of a corridor, and right left and height that was the sensible orientation for a visual aid.... But I would not get back to the players draw the map unless it is THE point of the season. Not even for mazes... too much work for too little fun. My case, I guess.
Thanks, PDM, for putting this question in context of how the game has evolved! As I've watched more videos like yours in my own D&D 'renaissance,' I've seen more clearly the usefulness of mapping for different adventure scenarios. And thank you for the shout-out!!!
So... No darkvisipn 9n your games That means the kobolds need a light source (torches, candles, radioactive stones, giant carnivorous fireflies...). Why didn't the players take that light source? Unless you cheat and allow the monsters abilities that the players can't.
I remember when the 1e Wilderness Survival Guide came out and we were confused, like, “There’s stuff outside the dungeon??” Nowadays we play a modern style D&D but still gotta drop in the occasional graph paper dungeon for nostalgic fun! I love making maps as a DM but often don’t need to or don’t have time. True for cities and overland as well as structures and dungeons.
I also use different tools according to the situation: I use theatre of the mind, dry erease maps and virtual maps (on a self-made small table with a built-in tv).
1. Creating maps and dungeons is my favorite part of adventure design. 2. Darkvision is not all powerful. Remember, darkness imposes disadvantage on Perception checks with darkvision (PH, page 183).
If you ban darkvision and the light spell, does that include dancing lights? How about using produce flame, prestidigitation, or create bonfire? Perhaps repeated castings of fire bolt would apply enough of a glimpse to navigate. Where do you draw the line on arcane illumination?
I've got a story about 5e and seeing in the dark. The very first time my wife played any form of D&D, 5e to boot, was on Roll20 with a DM who was using dynamic lighting. With dynamic lighting set up, your view is dependent on your token's position, and the lighting or darkvision your character has, plus anything that obscures your vision. Since walls block vision, your limited view of the map becomes a big part of your specific experience. For example, a Drow character token set up properly can see 120ft in the dark, while a Dwarf can only see 60ft. That Drow's player might see a monster's token on the map before the Dwarf's player does. However, my wife was new to Fantasy RPGs and chose human because she understood it. Humans in 5e have no darkvision. Not surprising with 5e, everyone else chose some race with darkvision. Fast forward to the first dungeon. No one has bothered to light any lights, since they can see, and she only gets a completely black screen. Since it was also her first time playing Roll20 and D&D, she had no idea what was going on, and figured this was just like the first part of the game, where there were no visuals, and it was roleplaying and description. So, she listened to the theater of the mind, all about the rooms, where people were standing, and eventually the creatures. Then people started saying things like, "I'm going for the one over here." and "That monster's token is gross." when she realized that something was up. "Am I supposed to be seeing anything?" she asks. Everyone pauses. "Yeah, the dungeon? The monsters? Why, is your browser not displaying anything?" asks the DM. "I just see my token in a black space." "Oh, oh... Oh yeah you can't see in the dark." By this point her real life fear of dark and underground spaces, which had started bothering her the moment they described entering the dungeon, went in to overdrive. She starts groaning, "I can't see!" and breathing heavy. Privately she turns to me after muting herself and says "I don't like D&D." She did all the things you normally do, like use torches, dancing lights, and so on to help. At least, after she realized she could do those things, and they helped a little, but that initial experience took her months to get over. The party eventually took several sessions working on earning some sort of device that would give her magical darkvision, with the DM's approval. But before that, she didn't really enjoy D&D.
Yeah. This is why I always recommend talking about safety tools like lines & veils in a Session 0. Tapping into RL phobias just isn't fun, and fun is why we're all doing this.
@@krinkrin5982 lines and veils are considered 'rpg safety tools'. Lines are do not cross. Under no circumstances do I want this to be included in the game implied or otherwise (for me that's sexual violence). Veils are things that would make you feel uncomfortable roleplaying and would prefer to 'fade to black' during those moments but you are okay with it happening of screen. For me, that's torture and suicide. I don't want those described in morbid details but I would be fine with coming across a torture chamber not in use or being told about the suicide of a character after the fact. Hope that helps
@@harrison3207 That was a good explanation. I think I should start including this in my session 0. So far I have been putting out a questionnaire regarding various genres, like horror and intrigue. Note that unless you put in high horror, I wouldn't have included the things you mentioned. Having a specific list from the players in addition to that might be better.
In the old days, low level characters could explore the upper levels of a dungeon, then sell the map to higher level characters who could take on the lower (and tougher) levels of that dungeon.
Something I have been considering due to the fact I Iike to use dungeon tiles, is to essentially only have the current room on the table unless a player makes a map. For example if the players were to go through a corridor into a room I would remove the corridor from the table, but if they were making a map, I would keep the corridor on the table.
In my next campaign the players will come across the remains of an adventurer still clutching a bloodstained map. His last map update was the spike trap that killed him.
You’re a good man Professor the Caves of Chaos are the best place to introduce new players to the game Also did you go to the New School, if I remember correctly it’s predominantly a teacher’s school.
I've never been a fan of player maps and discourage my players from making them. I haven't needed to use them yet. Instead, I draw each location by hand once the party reaches it, or reveal it to them if I have a pre-prepared floor plan available. Once they leave the location, this map is erased/hidden again. If the party needs to remember a particular route then I allow them to make a Homebrew "Navigation Test", using a combination of Wisdom (Perception) and Intelligence, the result of which determines how successful they are, or aren't... They can improve their chance of success with the help of navigation aides (such as a pet animal with a good sense of direction), marking their route as they go and/or using (divination) magic.
Map Pros: (not mentioned in vid) (1) contribute to verisimilitude - GM didn't make it up on the spot; (2) discovering connections, alternate/secret routes-it's when players realize how things connect that they get a thrill of discovery; (3) using the map layout for strategic/tactical planning-it needs to matter; (4) give players a more concrete sense of place-makes theater of the mind a bit easier. If map does none of the above, probably pointless. Map Potential Cons: (1) prep time potentially spent on a lot of detail that will never matter; (2) taking the map too literally-limiting assumptions about what is there/what is possible; (3) map-based meta-gaming(edge of page, blank areas=secret room, etc). Alternative to maps: Artwork! Google up some fantasy art that fits the location/scene. Have your players indicate where they are by placing tokens on the image(can even enlarge/shrink tokens to indicate depth/distance). Don't worry about grids-estimate reasonable distances.
I’d prefer to keep darkvision personally keeps races distinct. And btw light cantrip or lanterns are WAY more intelligent/fuel/cost effective than torches. In real life people used lanterns 95% of the time not torches! I flask oil = 1 hour in a lantern. Lanterns can be placed down and not use a hand. Lanterns are harder to snuff, etc! Why would anyone use the vastly inferior torches? Even if you remove darkvision, light cantrip is best. If you remove light cantrip; lantern is best. What possible explanation do you have to remove lanterns as an option? Different styles I guess? I prefer using powerful and optimal logical options based on good tactics and versilimitude. Even in old school, high horror, low hp, no death saves, etc! Lanterns are superior to torches! Sorry I’m passionate about torches being stupid 90% of the time!
Wait. The players lived because they made the right decision? The players? I’ve heard of hardcore mode, but PLAYERS dying and not characters? LOL. Love the videos.
(3:14) - Darkvision : It is NOT 'seeing in the dark'. It allows players to see in 'DIM' light as if it were lit. Complete darkness (or places where there is no 'light source') Darkvision does NOT let you see. This is frequently incorrectly played / adjudicated.
Great update! OOSR ways are best... yes, yes feel the strength and power of the Old Ones School of Roleplaying! :D I agree mapping can be kool, but could be cumbersome. If folks want to simulate mapping you can take a page from Five Torches Deep 'Supply Rules' and use the PC's Intelligence attribute as a way to simulate the mapping, the the DM can roll against the PCs Intelligence and inform the player yes this direction feels right, sorta like Gandalf in Moria. You could also use this method to provide players with a pre-drawn map, or just a list of directions, 50' then left 100' then right 30' a large 50'x50' room with three doors two on the left and one straight ahead.
One thing I will always love about olde D&D is the fact that one has to think beyond tactics and charts. There is simple logistics as well. One's characters life is rather dependent on such things. No fluff that cushions a bad decision. Either your character lives or dies based on those decisions. Although in AD&D 2e, there came this spell called, 'Resurrection'. Although it did have costs associated with it that started that slippery slope to a giant fluff ball that apparently exists in what little I know of 5e. My grandson will soon learn that fluff balls do not exist in my game!
Annnndd sometimes it is better to be lucky than good. Back in the days of 2nd Ed, before Dragonlance, etc I was working shiftwork. I had just gotten off work and was dog tired, but had to try to push myself to stay away for my "hang" day. Well, my young friends wanted me to join them in a dungeon with one of my favorite GMs. But I explained that I was tired beyond thinking straight. So I asked to create a new character real quick. What I came up with was a barbarian. Int 3, Wis 4. 18(00) strength .... yes, rolled right in front of them all. The other stats were decent (some bonuses). Then the kids wanted me to LEAD. Really? So I made up some quick rules. Intelligence on percentage dice to think of anything useful. Wisdom to actually use it. I managed to invent a torch on the spot. Maps? We don't need no stinkin' maps! I led them through on the run. It was a goblin dwelling. I chose directions with dice rolls unless something was really obvious ... or the enemies were trying to flee my sword. Loot? I had to assign someone to do nothing but loot. I chose the thief. The group pointed this out, to which I nodded sagely and said. "Then he should know what is loot and what is junk. If it is too heavy, leave it. And try to keep up." We flew through the entire dungeon in one sitting - a rarity. The GM told me I managed to avoid all the worst stuff and got most of the loot. And I left the place a smoking, gutted ruin. Of course he wouldn't give exp for some of the deaths. I laughed and told him, yeah, buy THEY had fun." Of course, it could have gone very differently.
At the risk of summoning Lindybeige, it's probably worth pointing out that one generally wouldn't carry a torch into a confined space like a dungeon. We generally (too often) think of dungeons as being hallways and rooms and doors, like a common building except maybe stone. These are warrens and caves. The ceilings are not high, the walls are not smooth, and neither is the ground. They're more tunnels than anything. Either they're natural caves or they've been burrowed out. In the latter case, they won't be larger than they need to be (so a warren for small-sized goblins might be very tight at best for mid-sized humans and too small for your 7 ft tall giant-blooded barbarian…) The point there is: Small space. Torches are pretty big fire that sputters, sparks, SMOKES a lot, and burns out quickly. Not the sort of thing you'd use in a small, confined space where you want to not burn things and/or breathe! What would you use? Lanterns probably make the most sense. Either containing a candle or tallow or oil and a wick. Oh, and that poses its own challenges during combat (not that a torch wouldn't!)
Good morning Professor. I would like to have your opinion on the ideal way to get players to draw the dungeon map. I have a rather complex dungeon planned and I don't want to give players the map, but I don't want to deprive them of the fun of drawing it or waste too much time avoiding misunderstandings (further on, no to the right, no further back, etc. etc.). Any suggestions?
Protip for those more artistically challenged in drawing maps: make a flowchart instead. I always tell my players that how they map IRL is what their maps will look like in-game. Then after finishing their adventure, they'll go to a professional cartographer to redraw the maps, make a bunch of copies, and sell those to other adventurers/guild/library/etc. Easy money.
I like 3e's approach to death. You CAN die in a single attack, if it puts you at or below -10 hp. But you might also have a chance to recover if not. Either way, you're unconscious.
I will say this... it depends on the dungeon. My GM loves to make his own dungeons and if we don't mark out the traps, we spring then when walking past them because we 'forget' where they are. The GM and I played during the time of 20+ room dungeons as well, so you sort of had to map. I really do not mind mapping, but the problem is orientation to starting out. Most dungeons are sized to fit on a standard graph paper, so nothing is worse then starting a map and having it go off the paper, forcing you to re-draw it. You can sometimes use that for your advantage as well, being able to look for secret doors/rooms that might lead to unexplored portions of the map. As for Darkvision... it is dumb for Dwarves and half-Orcs to /not/ get it, as Dwarves and Orcs live underground. Torches should last an hour and so should the cantrip Light. If 5e is going to take away Endure Elements, it could take away Light or make Cantrips cost a slot again so they are not unlimited, but it didn't. To be salty over a party being able to see in the dark is like being salty when the Wizard can cast Fireball or Greater Teleport. It is a aspect of the game that the players should be able to over-come at some point and time, such as with magic like Continual Flame or Magic weapons that give off light or good old Goggles of Darkvision.
That's an awesome video. I'm always amazed by how much of your videos didn't make my YT recommendation. I have since clicked the bell icon. Only channel that diserved it.
I usually lean towards mapping. If the dungeon doesn't have an actual, gridded map, then I at least have a general flow-chart of rooms. That being said, I have run both entirely mapped, entirely unmapped, and various place in between. I can definitely say mapping dungeons tends to be the better call. Even in your keep example, handing players a map and saying "build your dungeon" is one of the few things that lights up players' eyes with unbridled, child-like joy.
As usual great insight professor. You should check out Dungeon Alchemist. It is a AI powered making software. You can literally build huge dungeons to scale really really fast. You can then use it on VTT or print them. I’d be curious to get you opinion. Full disclosure I’m a beta tester from their Kickstarter campaign
Hey, PDM! What do you think about the concept of failing forward in rpgs? Personally, I'm a little skeptical and feel like it could cheapen the game, but I do feel like your input could add a lot to the discussion.
Agree completely Asking if you should map in D&D is like asking if videogames should have hitpoints. The question you really should be asking is "what kind of game do we all want to play?"
The torches thing is fantastic. Since 1 Turn is 10 minutes, a d3 for how long the torch burns really (figuratively and literally) puts the fire under the players. The rudest thing I've seen in old-school dungeons are those "teleport mazes" where the players will secretly and silently be teleported to another square in the maze that looks (in the direction they are going) just like the corridor that was in front of them. I like having my players make maps, but that sort of trick breaks trust enough that I know my players will be angry, not entertained.
XP to Level 3 released a video about why 5e darkvision characters don't have it QUITE as good as they think they do. But, if you really wanted to punish the Darkvision party.... ....sic a Boogeyman on them. "Boogeyman is not in the monster manual!" That's true. When I say Boogeyman, I mean a nightmare creature with whatever powers and appearance the DM can imagine that only exists and can only move around in places where there is no light. It will only start to wander the dungeon and begin a countdown to an encounter with the party when the players' torches go out, so if they didn't even bring any torches at the very start because they wanted to show off their darkvision.....
Torch Question for you professor: do you use the original D&D movement rates? According to Cook and Moldvay red book, an average party with some armor and treasure will move about 60 feet per turn. If you use your variable torch duration, a torch lasts at best 3 turns, so they really don't go far before it burns out. Just curious?
Mapping is great fun, for one person. Right up until the map gets screwed up, and the map maker starts arguing with the DM how that's impossible and it goes back to the hallway we were just in... Making a map should be very low detail, it should not replicate the DM's map. The knowledge the characters have differs greatly from the players, and a player should not be punished for things the characters would easily remember because the characters lived it and saw it first hand. Like remembering terrain in a dungeon. All that should be handwaved unless it is meant to get the characters lost (which is pointless).
Do you ever respond to comments that aren't overwhelmingly positive? It seems you only focus on those. It would be interesting if you would respond to comments that are sometimes critical. It would definitely make you look less biased.
I don't see how much of this can apply to most real games. The whole "good player" argument is totally irrelevant for new players, they're still trying to find out what all the numbers on their sheet mean, not how to metagame finishing a dungeon while managing their 10 different resources. If you want to meat grinder up some new player's character and see them never play d&d again you're more than welcome to. Asking new players to commit to a 4 hour game and create a character only to have them die before the end of session 1 is not conducive to someone wanting to play again. As someone who's tried to get into d&d for over 10 years and never been part of a group for more than 5-6 sessions, the amount of "good players" I've come across could be counted on one hand. Sure if you can be picky about who you play with it might work, but I can't.
I use Roll 20 and if you want that exploration vibe you can use the dynamic lighting feature. I also hide things on the GM layer and then place them into the token layer when I want to unveil something to keep nosy players from discovering too much 😁 For me as a player and GM , theatre of the mind just doesn't cut it. I have to see where everything is in relation to the map. My preference though. If TOtM works for you , have at it.
The problem with mapping is that that takes time, and if a torch only lasts 10 minutes, it will only lasts like 5-7 minutes with mapping, even if you are just drawing a single line for corridors!
As you say, it depends. I often just rough-map things, or stick-map it. For instance, in one underground scenario (I don't do that many) I said "the tunnel continues for a couple of miles, no major turns or dips but it is hard to tell if it is straight..." not map friendly! And mapping out a major city as if it were a dungeon is a waste of time...
I haven't played a D&D game in quite a while. My group is mostly focused on cyberpunk now with the occasional horror game. The last D&D campaign I ran was a low magic setting with almost no none humans that I based on the Cthulhu Mythos with a magic-centric dark ages style. Almost all those games were tense (not to mention highly deadly) and while there were plenty of bad guys to slay (deep ones, ghouls, etc.) there were lots of things to just run from. We tended to use maps in the games most of the time, but I'd often have the players map the area as they go or force them to recall how they came and went. Now in my cyberpunk games, where there are massive mega blocks, corporate business centers, and highway chases, we tend not to use maps because drawing out an entire massive corporate business center would be daunting to actually capture the scale. I rely on a decent amount of description and emphasize important areas like a food court, elevators, an area with some sculptures, a security booth, etc. I describe the general area but do so in a way that allows the players to remember key areas that can be helpful. And since cyberpunk is close to a modern style setting than an over sci-fi one, some things can be assumed like vending machines in the food court (good cover), pillars in a subway station, tons of cars on the highway to weave through, crowds of people on the streets (cover, meat shields, innocent by standards to worry about). And if players ask if something is around I did not describe I either say it is or have them roll if there is a chance it is not (is there a fire extinguisher? Food court yes, the lobby... well roll for that...)
Drawing on graph paper is silly. We just do node graphs. A circle named "Room A" with lines going to other nodes for other rooms as they're discovered. Quick, easy, and has all the info anyone could ever need to navigate.
I use some rules to make dungeoncrawling immersive, some houserules other officials. I play something more 3rd edition storywise (a point between clasic dnd and hyper-power-fantasy 5e) and Last time I played a dungeon this way everyone loved it. - If a character has darkvision and a torch is lit, he can't see in the dark because his eyes can't adapt (if all the party is composed of darkvision characters, then it's their strategy but I'm ploting of add penalty to light changes for those). Of the normal races only the dwarves has darkvision because they live underground and can't see color when so. - At-will spells like light or detect magic needs concentration, it means that if the party rely in the wizard to mantain the light then the wizard can't cast spells and must mantain his hp to keep the spell. Even if they lit torches for combat, that would need some time and the wizard can't cast other spells like detect magic to avoid magical traps. - I print the map by rooms but without corridors. If the players don't have a compas or any other way to know where the nort is, then I place the rooms rotated at random directions. Also every time the players do something I rotate the map. For example, if the players fight or explore in the room then I will rotate the map at random. This represent the loss of direction, if the players start to advance hastely without keeping track of where they come, then they will get lost. - Players can only take notes if they bought paper and pencil in-game. Making a map takes time in-game. Putting a printed map over the table and covering the parts not explored (or worse, leting all the unexplored places at view) is a lot easier but a lot less immersive. I can't always make the effort, but is worth it when you see the players centered and seriously planning about who is carring torches and what path they will take.
When we do dungeon exploration, someone in the group always maps the dungeon. That said... we don't really like dungeon exploration. I'd prefer to never do another dungeon again, and I certainly wouldn't ever run one.
I personally don't like making my players map themselves. In torchbearer, it's a skill check which isn't the same as OSR but it forces the same conflict of getting lost and not being able to escape the dungeon as was described in the video. They do still need to manage torchlight. That's close enough for me.
I feel that if you have player buy-in for the player's mapping areas, it can be a helpful part of the game. The problems with mapping include that you may not have players interested in mapping, that it slows down play, and that it is virtually impossible to do on a VTT.
This stricter way of playing and being forced to carefully manage your resources, does have its merits for fun and excitement. I think it comes down to preference.
Do you have guidelines for how and when you prompt the players during a dungeon delve? If they turn right and it leads to a 50' long hall so you just explain the long walk in the dark and prompt when they get to another intersection or room? Or do you prompt periodically?
tl;dr Maps are for unfamiliar terrain, where every decision matters. It allows the DM to disclose and obfuscate information as it fits. With familiar terrain, however, mapless is better. In this scenario, there is no obfuscation of information needed. All a map does is tracking down details that don't matter and slow the game down.
Back in the day, man, mapping was the best. Our DM would give direction and if you didn't get it right, you were in trouble. We used torches and if we got lost, we wee scared to death of running out of light.
All this talk about added realism and grit, and yet a party of humans can get to an intersection 30 feet away from a room full of kobolds, and neither the kobolds see the party in the torchlight, nor does the party hear the room full of kobolds. That’s my main gripe with dungeons like this.
I have a map that I use for combat even if I only describe the scene. That way people don't have to keep where everyone is tracked in the theater of the mind. But I do like using maps for large locations just because I don't want to have to keep describing things
I have found that if you are running an exploration type game, mapping is be very important. Not just for getting out of the dungeon itself (and not getting lost) but also for figuring out the best places to search for hidden rooms / areas. Sometimes it becomes very apparent where there is a hidden room because you have a "gap" in your map. Then you can make sure to search that area.
