I figure it doesn’t take much to see the difference. Amoongus has such a fantastic typing for a defensive Pokemon: Grass/Poison, while Brute Bonnette has that defensively disastrous Grass/Dark typing. On top of that, the loss of Regenerator is way too big.
It's not really a comparison with Iron thorns. It's being used as an example for why giving bad defensive typing to bulky attackers who rely on taking hits is bad. In doubles the dynamic is much different since weather is much more impactful. You don't have to switch out torkoal to get brute in since you have 2 Pokémon to lead with (key point since brute struggles very much with switching in) you can cover it's bad matchups with your partner, for example the fire types used with sun will threaten the bug types its helpless against and brute threatens the water and ground types that threaten the fire types. This is much harder to do in singles since you need to switch between them instead of being able to have them on the field at the same time. Brute bonnet does not deal well with OU's biggest threats such as Chien-Pao and Chi-Yu, doesn't have the unique threats that meowscarada has in flower trick and protean, and in the role of protecting your team from water and ground types, amoongus does a better job at since it has regenerator and much greater walling ability with its typing.
Ideally you would have actually wanted BB to keep its poison type rather than grass. Grass is a type that only works well defensively in very few combinations while poison is actually a super solid defensive typing. If this was poison/dark rather than grass/dark it would have probably been pretty legit.
Amogus is Hella balanced in singles, but in Doubles it's super op. With access to Rage Powder, Spore without a Sleep Clause, Pollen Puff for teammates, and just the fact that HP is better defensively in VGC than having high defense or spdef stats, and you got yourself one sassy shroom.
@@morrasod1858 It has to do with how stats are calculated at lower levels. When you're at level 100 it's pretty even on if you want HP or Defensive stats, but since you gain a lot more HP at early levels than at late levels, it makes a lot more of a difference in VGC, where you're level 50. Think of it as a less extreme version of Little Cup, where the moves are all endgame level but the stats aren't, so offense is much more overwhelming. You can't negate a lot of damage, but if you're beefy enough you can out-number the non negated damage
Now personaly I love brute bonnets idea. His design is cool. I think instead of dark, dragon coulda been a much better substitute seeing its a more feral looking version of the paradox pokemon, if we exclude great tusk that is. Also I do think instead of increasing its attack stat we should have invested more into Sp. Def and Physical Def, y'know? Giving his a slight edge to run a defensive play to be offensive. That way it would keep its namesake and be viable. Also towards Iron thorns I have no idea why it kept the rock typing, that mon shoulda been a steel type for real.
Idk if you missed it, but all Paradox pokemon keep the one type from their original counterpart. So Brute Bonnet could only ever be Grass/Secondary or Poison/Secondary.
@@loudwhispre9406 Well ye I was aware. Thats why I made the idea of its typing be reworked into Grass Dragon. Since in the end it could be botg defensive and offensive that way
The defining factor is rage powder and spore. In doubles, the opponent can ignore Toxapex. They cannot ignore Amoongus because A. It forces them to attack it. B. Spore gives it a threatening presence.
Not really, toxapex is simply garbage in doubles and the main factors that make amoongus better in doubles is the lack of sleep clause as well as rage powder being useful now but mainly sleep clause as you can simply suffocate opponents out of the game with tempo advantage from spore if amoongus stays around for even as little as two turns. Don't get me wrong rage powder is good for being able to insure the teammate doesn't get ko'd during the turn but spore quite often forces the opposing pokémon to target amoongus anyway, gets even more oppressive under trick room as it gets to outspeed while doing it.
With the fact that they made sure you cannot ever get Protosynthesis to buff this pokemons speed because attack is 1 point to high with timid nature and 0 attack ivs they set it up to fail
I think the final nail in the coffin was two other grass dark types being introduced this gen, one better offensively and one better defensively. Really destroys any niche it could’ve had
The biggest problem with BB is the fact amoonguss has a different role that it. Defense pivot and duos support vs another physical sweeper. There aren't enough support mons so amoonguss fills a niche while BB has to much competition so you can be more critical of its faults.
I use a Brute Bonnet in Showdown VGC as a support. Polen Puff, Spore, Rage Powder and Sucker Punch along with Max HP and investiments in defenses give my good survival on it
I think that it works since species do change over time... it's quite possible that some families of pokemon hit their prime during different eras.... Tyranitar for example is in it's prime now, but declined later into Iron Thorns, Slither wing progressively improved over time into Volcarona and then Iron Moth Modern Amoongus may be "weaker" than Brute Bonnet but it evolved to be better as a more passive pokemon since it's ancient form didn't quite cut it as an attacker
There is one benefit that Dark type provides: immune to Prankster status moves, such as Taunt that would disable its ability to use Spore, Leech Seed, etc. That said, Dark/Poison would have been a vastly better typing overall (Dark and Poison dont have any monotype resists shared between them I think, and defensively it has only one weakness, an immunity to Psychic damage and Poisoned/Toxic Status), and Protosynthesis with its stats would not help it bolster its speed or its bulk (or so I believe; I dont know off the top of my head if a -Atk +Def/SpDef nature would be enough to redirect the buff from attack to defense)
the paradox pokemon really need abilities other than what they have now. protosynthesis and quark drive are great, but so many of them need something else.
I like Bonnet. Sucker Punch, Spore, Clear Smog, and Seed Bomb is awesome coverage especially if your attack is boosted. I was also found it to be a great answer to Dondozo.
Grass/Dark Is a terrible typing. I think Poison/Dark would have been better In multiple ways. Great coverage of both offence and defense. Also would've made better sense, as mushrooms like the dark, and are often poisonous.
I don’t think Brute Bonnet will be an OU Pokemon-especially as long as stronger offensive dark types like Chien-Pao and Kingambit exist in the meta. It has a nice niche as a Sucker Punch cleaner, especially if you can get the sun up. The problem is that the only sun setter right now is Torkoal, and he won’t drop out of OU any time soon. As it stands, you have to take Brute Bonnet as is, which is like a budget dark-type Breloom. I’d say it’s still good enough to stay UU-or at least get banned from RU.
I disagree about BB not having much thought put behind it, I think they gave it a lot of thought in designing it for *doubles*: with trick room being a much more prevalent speed control option, it can turn its poor speed into a strength to threaten a lot of damage; not only that, it actually still can redirect attacks with rage powder to assist in setting up said trick room and threaten spore to support the team. Furthermore, thanks to its ability it benefit from the protosynthesis boost without sacrificing an item, and the main non-uber sun setter just happens to be torkoal, which greatly benefits from being under trick room, as well, and together they have scary coverage. It's not nearly as good as Amoonguss at supporting the team but it can still do that while not having its weaknesses of being too passive and getting shut down by goggles/taunt so it fulfills a completely different niche
Ita honestly been doing me good in the pits of UU, i'm not that good but it shuts down stored power sweepers hard amd has enough bulk to live hits and spore any switches
Brute Bonnet is a very well-designed Pokemon IMO but with VGC in mind. Amoongus is the Toxapex of 4v4 doubles and introducing a better version of it would be bad if not handled carefully. It has such a high attack because it's impossible for it to get a speed boost from its ability. Toedscruel having a speed gimping ability shows they are afraid to introduce a fast spore user. If they gave the same stat to one of its defenses, it would be a massive upgrade from that defensive side. We also can see from the moths, mainly iron moth that they don't want the paradox mons to be objective upgrades without a reason to use the originals. Iron Moth is the only moth not to get quiver dance likely because it acts as a reason to use Volcarona. The worse defensive typing makes Amoongus better defensively but tera lets Brute Bonnet fix its worst typing while acting as an alternative that does good damage. Lastly, Trick Room is a viable strategy in VGC making its terrible speed while still an issue, also an asset on the right team. It's a bruiser that loses its better tanking type in exchange for good damage and an immunity to prankster Pokemon
It terms of actual design its pretty sick looking....i know the point is to look at it competitively but for me its certainly a cool add to an in game team
Y'know, at least iron thorns can do threatening dragon dance things since it has juuuust enough speed that it can actually meet some key benchmarks after a DDance, and quark drive can give it some big attack numbers on top of that. I don't think that what it does is particularly good considering dragonite is way better at being a "click dragon dance 1-2 times then sweep" pokemon, but iron thorns does have a useful thing it can do that it does better than the original. Meanwhile brute bonnet over here is just bad at everything; being unable to do any of the things the original was good at, unable to leverage its new tools well, and being outclassed by freaking wo chien as a "bulky grass/dark pokemon" and as you said kingambit as "slow dark type attacker". I think the most bonnet will end up doing is end up as "that thing that uses spore" in lower tiers. I suppose that not every new pokemon can be a hit but brute bonnet honestly feels like the only paradox that is a genuine downgrade in every relevant way.
brute bonnet = grass/rock iron thorns = electric/dark i think this is the solution, they need to interchange her types. There is no pokemon with Grass/rock typing except for cradily, same for tyranitar with only morpeko as a electric/dark pokemon
Stop using Brute Bonnet as Another Amoonguss, it’s its own Pokémon; it’s not a replacement. The same for Iron Thorns, it is NOT a Tyranitar replacement.
I kinda agree but they're doing this because they are based on amoonguss and Tyranitar. of course they will be considered as replacements even if they're meant to have different roles.
How I’d improve Brute Bonnet: Make it Poison Dark instead Swap it’s attack stats(Like it doesn’t really make sense for this thing to be a physical attacker, it doesn’t even have hands) That also means give it more special moves Lower that attack even more down to 69 and out those 10 points into HP
This make me curious, how good is Iron Jugulis compared to Hydreigon? I have been wondering that seeing Iron Jugulis is a little less weak to Fairy then Hydreigon, if that helps anything.
I think most people prefer Hydreigon for the Dragon typing which has a lot of great resistances. I've seen people use Iron Jugulis on Rain teams though cause of STAB Hurricane, that's something
And from a gameplay perspective, there are just too many grass/dark types, brute bonnet, meowscarada, and one of the ruin legendaries, I forget it’s name, is also grass/dark…
i think brute bonnet is on equal footing with amoongus in a doubles format, and i think it is important to consider that doubles is the official format for pokemon battles. Its middle of the road role makes it a sort of pointless master of none pokemon in a singles format where snowballing and min maxing is more prominent, but the role compression is great in vgc. you get the amazing utility moveset of amoongus in clear smog, rage powder, and spore, but with a speed stat just above the biggest trick room threats and other amoongus which can turn the tide of some games. more importantly, a 127 attack stat sucker punch means brute bonnet covers up a massive weakness amoongus has in being abusably nonthreatening. Overall i think this kinda evens out with the weaknesses you mentioned in video and makes brute bonnet more of an alternative than a downgrade (at least in doubles)
i already typed too much but i should add for clarity that in doubles having protosynthesis over regenerator is nowhere near as big a deal and can in many situations even be better. Weather being easier to set + swapping being more dangerous makes it a pretty easy comparison
Also 55 spd is low but not so low that you can't outspeed a lot of stuff under tailwind. I think tailroom teams will be one of the main use cases for Brute Bonnet. One of the main issues might be the ruleset though, rn paradox pokémon are banned, but if they limit them to 1 or 2 per team the opportunity cost of running BB over amoongus might be too much in most cases.
@@X-Vidar In an ideal world they just limit the few that are overwhelming since they're for the most part not as decisively better than other pokemon as legendaries
I haven't played either format, but I guess this thing would work better on VGC under Trick Room and with sun support, as well as thr faster pace that takes value off of Regenerator. GF pretty much only cares about balancing doubles anyway.
Well to me it seems like a great trick room sweeper, the only problem is that it lacks more offensive movepool aside from seed bomb, crunch and sucker punch. If anything would fix itd, be to change is typing to poison/dark or grass/steel to make it different from amoongus. The one advantage it has is getting boosts in sun so it may be better if it just got a better typing
Something interesting to consider is the role that traiditional evolution (not pokemon evolution) would play in brute bonnet becoming Amoongus. In evolution, less desirable qualities are phased out for those that are more desirable. Since brute bonnet failed at being an offensive attacker and could have seen more success investing in bulk and defensive capabilities, it coudl have become the defensive amoongus that we know today, by way of generations of evolution.
Hi i wanted to ask a question and I liked your style of playing so I'm asking xD do you think it's doable to use a snow team in singles ( on VGC) if yes can you give me pointers please ? Thx you.
It's not a good idea to compare it to Amoonguss but I think looking at another dark/grass would help us to understand what it's wrong with Brute Bonnet. Meowscarada is a good example of minimax being very fast and incredibly frail with bad defensive typing, with incredibly powerful STABs and barely good enough movepool. It's not a good wallbreaker but definitely a solid sweeper and should be able to stay relevant in OU. Brute Bonnet on the other hand is not a very well thought Mon. It's clear they were trying to get an offensive support with spore, and while this should work on doubles, in singles it has the massive issue of being slow, lacking powerful STABs to undermine that good attack and having a terrible defensive typing to undermine that good bulk; in doubles at least it has Torkoal and trick room to naturally boost its attack and fix its speed so it's actually a threatening support, but those are not reliable strats in singles, and even then Amoonguss is a top tier Mon in doubles.
I think brute bonnet is really cool tbh. I think this video hard under rates it cuz your only talking about it on the smogon ladder. As with basically all the newer mons it seems to me that it was balanced around VGC where trick room is a way more usable strategy. Amoongus is already good, so I think making just a better version of it would be unnecessary. Like they aren’t out to replace Amoonguss, it’s supposed to fill it’s own role.
Imo there seems to have been a huge design hurry with all paradox forms, they gave the same ability to all of them rather than creating one for each specific pokemon, this makes some of them unbalanced whereas others are heavily in need of a different ability to be successful (tyranitar, amoongus and hariyama)
Lore wise this decision does not make sense either. For, in theory paradox forms are the past and the future of already existing pokemons so it would make more sense if they had similar abilities.
Well technically speaking, this isn't a new form of Amoongus. It's an entirely different pokémon species that has superficially resemblances Amoongus. It's like comparing Iron Valiant with Gardevoir and Gallade. Iron Valiant has excellent speed and awful special defence while also specialising in neither physical or special attack, it has traits of both, but also traits that are entirely its own. Brute Bonnet's role better suits a bulky wall-breaker, with its massive attack stat boostable by Protosynthesis and higher speed tier to outrun common walls it can shut them down with Spore and threaten massive follow-up with its own attacks. If Brute Bonnet is a new form of anything, it's Breloom, not Amoongus. I don't think it compares well against Breloom either.
They balance around doubles, too. Grass is immune to spore and powders and resists earthquake, dark is immune to prankster. It's not that they overlooked or neglected brute bonnet when designing it, It's just that 6v6 singles where all Pokémon are level 100 with no item clause was never their #1 priority for balance
They should have made iron thorns a special attacking version of Ttar perhaps with Dark Electric typing and called it Iron Tyrant. At least it would have a different niche than Ttar and not just be a strictly inferior version.
Funny enough, it's 1 stat point away from being borderline overpowered. If it had either slightly more speed or slightly less attack, it could have had its IVs and stats manipulated so that it would receive a photosynthesis-procced speed boost that would have allowed it to be a relatively fast spore user which is pretty threatening to most team comps
Let them come to their senses and grant these paradox forms hidden abilities and suddenly they will have access to the meta Making variants and having them all maintain the same function type casts them into a niche category. Unlike that Tapus which set up their own unique terrainz, instead they are like if Beast mons were rival schools. They were uniforms, but ulitmately are homogeneous If you're trying to court a girl, but can't separate from your buds, you lose the game. What is the utility that gives your presence purpose? And if its just a variation of typing, you're as significant as hair, nails, or what your head is shaped like
It's definitely worse than the new ttar imo. That boy gonna come in with a free 50% higher attack, gonna terra flying and dodge your 4x ground attack and do some demon shit with good coverage. Being weak to U-turn is worse because lots of mons have it only sometimes and without being big type and will use it everytime because it's also the correct play if you switch out and potentially a KO if you don't. U-turn quad weakness on a defensive mon bleh. At least earthquake is more obvious and you potentially have immune pokemon to help scout.
I think BB might carve out a lower niche , but it got released alongside meowscarada, which if you really are itching for G/D power I don’t see why you’d want BB over that mon
IT’S not all bad though!!! Funny enough. With a sun support and Growth this guy can make a few nice feats on its own. As proto boost 33% of attack in sun plus a + 2 in attack those sucker punches will sting BADLY. Combine that with having Close combat to ruin the dark types that can take a sucker. Only issue i see is not hittibg fairys at all. U couöd fun venoshock or terra type poison with blast. But i think thats just to situational.
Amoonguss sucks design wise but I have to agree that Bonnet just doesn't cut it competitively... Also why the heck does an ANCIENT pokemon have a poke all design, it already looks like Amoonguss should've given it a different pattern.
I agree with Brute Bonnet being inferior, but Iron Thorns at least has some benefits over regular ttar, one amazing one being able to hit all unaware walls for super effective dmg.
3:42 Even when I was a singles player I understood some mons were designed for doubles. Or was bad opinions a trick to get is all to comment? Cause I'll admit, it worked, I'm still posting this comment and boosting this video in the algorithm. But yeah, it's not that they don't understand, it's that singles 6v6 is not a priority (singles 3v3 is kinda considered, but I don't remember many amogus there) Thorns does look bad in either format I'll admit, but Brute Bonnet in vgc looks terrifying when they legalize it. Trick Room is the only thing I can think of Amogus does better.
I think just having it be a better Amoongus would've been poor design. So the niche it fills isn't great in OU, it at least has a unique niche. "Not good in competitive" is not the same as "Not well designed"
Who cares what type it is when you can simply terra fire and cook anything that can do significant dmg to you that turn, it'll also invalidate that turn of dmg from the opponent, anything that wouldve hit you for super effective dmg is nerfed by fire typing, it also has enough bulk to live any neutral unboosted fighting type attack. It has priority, sustain, status and crazy base stats, to focus on grass/dark typing as an Achilles heel in a game where your type can change is kinda crazy. Dark typing is useful pre-tera so is grass.
bb still has great traits on paper, it can be very threatning with access to close combat, sucker punch and spore, 111/99/99 bulk is absolutely massive(bulkier than garchomp) with only its awful defensive typing holding it back, however even a terrible defensive typing can work on a pokemon that can *brute* force its way through but after working on wo-chien and realising grass dark actually loses to 90% of the metagame i can't see brute bonnet thriving anytime soon, it can still be annoying in a lot of games which is way more than nothing
I say every Paradox pokemon is poorly designed the same way UBs were. When you give a set generic ability to an entire class of pokemon you pretty much remove a design piece from them. Amoonguss and Tyranitar are the prime example of this. Their paradox forms were dying to have their original abilities, but instead they got a generic weird conditional boost that is pretty clunky and don't work with them at all. Without an ability to work with them, they are completely dependent on their type, movepool and stats to make them work and they just need one weak link there and it is enough to ruin the pokemon. We used to have UBs spread though every tier, from PU to Ubers for this same reason. And I bet the same will happen to the paradox pokemon as soon as the meta gets flooded from pokemon from Home.
I dont think its fair to compare amoonguss and brute bonnet. Its like comparing volcarona to slither wing. Brute Bonnet is a "bulky" attacker that uses spore or taunt for a little spicy support and checks things well (especially psychic and ghost types) with sucker punch. Or maybe Im just coping because I absolutely love this thing. Its not overpowered, far from it, but it has a nieche and it preforms well in that nieche.
