In the episode "best of both worlds II" that literally would have been the case. He was offered the command of a ship that was deployed at wolf 359 and it's wreckage was scene floating around destroyed, but since we was on the Enterprise he survived and defeated the Borg with one ship when the entire fleet he would have been apart of was wiped out.
The reason he doesn't accept any command positions is because the Titan is the first Starfleet vessel to be equipped with a mountable captain's chair, all the other commands he was offered didn't have straddle-able command chairs.
Riker: Thinks his first command should be Starfleet's flagship, the Enterprise D. Also Riker: While in temporary command of the Enterprise D, crashes it into a planet.
Wouldn't the primary responsibility for the security breach that led to the ship's destruction fall on Worf for not being paranoid enough for a change? "You were restrained and they took your VISOR away for a while, a little like that time the Romulans brainwashed you into an assassination attempt? That sounds uncomfortable. Anyway, your next shift in Engineering is at 0700."
Chakotay should have at least been compared to a venus fly trap or some other cool plant. Not just a run of the mill potted plant. He at least got 7 of 9 before she switched to girls. Oh dang. She switched to girls after Chacotay... Nevermind.
I would say not by his choice, remember when he said “I didn’t see a little box on my seat this morning...” when Tom Paris got re-promoted back to lieutenant?
@@startrekker4596 That was arguably the stupidest thing on Voyager. Yes, "Threshold" was insanely stupid, but it was a one-time thing. Not promoting Harry Kim was five years (not counting the first two since it was appropriate for him to be an ensign then) of SUSTSINED stupidity.
The excuse was they needed and Ensign for Voyager but that decision itself was stupid when Paris got re promoted to Lieutenant he guy wasn't even a full Starfleet officer he was just a temporary hired guide. Tuvok also got a promotion but Kim never did. I really Hope just as we saw Seven back on Picard and Janeway in the upcoming Star TreK Prodigy we might see Kim in a future episode of new trek in the captains seat at that. They owe him.
@@Bird-Birdy-Love And that excuse was completely ridiculous. Star Trek TNG had no ensign in the main cast from Season 4 on. Deep Space 9 never had an ensign in the main cast period. Clearly, someone *does not* have to be the ensign.
I always got a kick out of it when Riker would make a suggestion on the bridge and either A: Data would explain why it wouldn't work, B:Geordi would explain why it wouldn't work , or C: Picard would dismiss it out of hand
@@SuperDeinVadda I wonder if they shoehorned that in because the writers realized that Riker was always wrong and wanted to make him right at least once?
Snow quilty The entire meme of Kirk is that he stuck his dick in like, half the sentient races that ever appeared on the show. There is an *extremely* long running joke about that. Regardless of it's exact accuracy, the fact remains that Riker had a tendency to sleep around, especially when compared to the rest of the crew. And so, you take Kirk, take his libido, put in on a starfleet uniform, and you get Riker.
@@MikhaelAhava Riker never sits like a normal person would, he steps over the chair like a saddle and mounts it. Apparently he also does the "Riker Lean" as well. Essentially he had a back injury so in the show he always leans on stuff and mounts chairs so he doesn't have to move his back much. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-lVIGhYMwRgs.html
@@_faultee_ Yeah, whole video dedicated to how much of an ass Riker is, doesn't mention this :( Apparently it had something to do with Frakes' back irl though.
and the way he stands behind crewmen, putting one leg up on their seat or the console?? like a champ.....really watch one of those scenes where he's behind the helmsman or navigator and get a good laugh lolz
@@darthXreven the episode I remember best when he does the leg thing is with Data in a timeloop story and Data uses the number of pips on Riker's uniform as a clue on how to escape the loop.
@@RIDDICK0911 - I'd hang with O'Brien any day any time and I guess late series Bashir can come too, not that early series guy though. Garak can only come if he has his Supersecretspy Mastercard to pick up tabs.
@@InnocuousRemark In fairness, the chair thing is supposedly because the actor has injuries that force him to do that. Not because the character is that way.
Riker: "Come on, guys. There is no Starfleet. It's a television show. If I take a position as a Captain, that really just means I'm off the show and out of a job".
Me: "I want you to know that, I'm not a complete brain case, ok? I understand completely that it's just a TV show. I know there's no beryllium sphere, no digital conveyor, no ship..." Commander William Riker: "Stop! Stop for a second, stop... It's all real." Me: "Oh my God, I knew it. I knew it! I KNEW IT!!"
I understand Riker's reasoning, although it is selfish: He would rather stay second-in-command and going on all the interesting explorative trips, rather than being the captain of his own ship and doing boring shitwork for some years, without ever getting back the freedom of only being second and leading teams. Picard has the same gimmick regarding staying Captain instead of getting an Admiral leadership role.
I think captains have more freedom for that decision though. Like, how many admirals could they possibly need? Each captain is a ship, and it is obvious that admirals do not directly command ships in most situations. Being promoted to admiral in Starfleet seems like a “halfway to retirement” position for captains who are still competent but more ready to settle down. Science or engineering officers may not advance as much because their positions are that of a different expertise than command, but “Commander” is clearly intended to be a stepping stone to “Captain”, which you can then stay at as long as you want until you retire or decide to let yourself be promoted. Even lower rank engineering, medical, and science staff have their own clout unrelated to rank as seen several times, but when have you heard of a commander who is more prestigious than the captain on the same ship?
To be honest I always figured Riker never left the Enterprise because he wanted the captains chair of that ship, and that ship alone. No one gets mad at Spock for serving as first officer of the Enterprise for decades under 3 captains, and eventually is given the ship. I honestly doubt that the UFP would just be willing to give command of the Enterprise to just anyone, they would likely pick people who either A were long serving captains like Kirk or Picard, or B look at people who served as officers on said ship for long periods of time especially if they meet all other requirements to be captain, like Spock.
@@novaiscool1 Even Picard had to be captain of the stargazer for a while before they gave him the enterprise. Riker might have made the right decision the first time he turned down command because he knew that ship had a boring mission but the second or third time he should have went for it. Having a record of success as a captain would have made him a better candidate for a more important ship.
@@bogustoast22none25 You'd be surprised how busy potted plants can keep you. I have a few in my house, including some very rare black roses soon once they bloom.
@@luciferangelica Years ago I had a DVD with marionette puppets portraying the bridge crew of STtNG and after Picard ordered "Fire at Will!" Worf shot him with a phaser IIRC... lol.
@@socialmedia4637 most of the episodes Frakes directed were some of the best episodes except for that season 7 episode 'Sub Rosa' which was an abomination.
In getting himself promotion to captain in the Borg-Arc, only for gladly giving up the rank of Captain to become First Officer again. That was so stupid and idiotic it hurts.
The thing about the Jellico situation that never quite holds up is that we've seen Riker being an overly strict hardass to junior officers plenty of times before. He's given plenty of grief to the likes of Ro Laren and Reg Barclay before this. But Chain of Command requires us to overlook that and assume that Riker is always 100% pleasant.
No, that's not the point. Riker has made sure the Enterprise runs smooth and everybody performs well. That is his job as XO. He is good at this, making sure some people are pushed who need it, while being known as fair and likeable. That is what Picard likes in him and in that respect he is better than Picard himself, who is not that great with (all) people. Jellico questions that. His decision about the 4 shift rotation says: "You, Riker, have not chosen the best rota there is in the first place. I, the captain, go over your head and change something in your core responsibility, because you did it wrong." That's why Riker is offended. Plus, he feels everyone should be on their toes, but at the same time as comfortable as possible, well rested and everyting. By the way: How do you go from a 3 shift to a 4 shift with the same personnel? I see 2 possibilities: 1) You split the crew anew from A,B,C to A,B,C,D, thus ripping apart teams who are adjusted to another - you don't want that. 2) You change from 8h shifts to 6h shifts, but then people only have 12 hours between shifts when they used to have 16h. That interrupts their routine and their day/night routine, which we know they articicially create. Either way, Jellico totally disrupts life for everyone, and Riker does not think that makes sense.
@@countluke2334 starting with your second point, changing to 12 hour shifts wouldn’t be four sections, it would be two. Yes it sucks; I did it seven days a week for seven months straight... On the Enterprise, amusingly enough (CVN-65 was a PoS, BTW; at least while I was aboard her). Four shifts would be the 6-hour shifts, which means everyone would then 18 hours of rest between shifts, and would mean that a higher percentage of the crew would be fully rested in the event of an emergency. As for your first point, that’s just BS. Everyone in any military unit (or any organization, for that matter), should be able to work with anyone else in that organization; although it’s even more important for the military. While you should try to put those persons together who work best together, if you have a unit that _has_ to have all of its people to function, then they’ll be f*cked if they lose one or more, say due to _combat casualties_ Starfleet may not be primarily a military force, but they are all the Federation has in that regard, and they were going into a potential military conflict. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter what Riker, or any of the department heads thought; if anyone in the writers’ room had served in the military, then they would have known that the conversation should have gone something like this: Jellico: I want a four-shift rotation; start setting up a Gamma shift and see to the implementation. Riker: Sir, I don’t think that that’s a good idea, for (reasons A, B, & C). J: I understand your concerns; we had similar problems aboard (previous ship), but I prefer having a Gamma shift; so see to it. If you need help, you can contact my previous XO for advice. R: Aye, sir (makes it happen).
@@seannemo8076 Please read carefully. I wrote "You change from 8h shifts to 6h shifts, but then people only have 12 hours between shifts when they used to have 16h" The problem from the outset was that it is difficult to just create a fourth shift out of thin air, so you have to make do with the personnel you have. The idea was keeping the personnel in the shifts as before, but switch to 4 shifts. So they work shorter (6 hours as compared to 8), but more often (only 12h break between as compared to 16). By the way, the fourth shift would be Delta.
@@countluke2334 Yeah, I had to read carefully, multiple times, because that makes even less sense. We're assuming (with good reason) a 24-hour day cycle. That change would create an 18-hour cycle. That also would still be three shifts, and Jellico orders or a "four-shift rotation", so that theory is out of the window. The problem, as Riker stated, is that it would create "personnel problems"; in other words, Riker, and the department heads, don't want to work with smaller shifts. The problem with _that_ is that they are on a military vessel, especially given the circumstances, and in the military, you make do with what personnel you have. My infantry battalion went on deployment with approximately 75% of standard strength; we made do because that's what you do. And when your commanding officer gives you a lawful order, you obey it. *Period* And you're right about the naming scheme; I keep getting that wrong, dang it.
I think Riker just wanted to command the Enterprise. And he was willing to wait as long as necessary for Picard to retire or die. But he got tired of waiting and eventually moved on to the Titan.
I remember that being a stated reason at some point...stands out in my memory cause my mother who was former Navy pointed out how stupid it was. His passing up promotion really does get stupider the more you think about it.
@@toddnolastname4485 what do you mean it wasn't the the Enterprise the Enterprise d was destroyed so they built the Enterprise E and it became the flagship of the federation
Well originally the suits weren't sure Picard would go over well with the fans and they wanted a Kirk-like character ready to replace him. But yeah, part 1 of Best of Both Worlds was written with the outcome unknown because they didn't know if Patrick Stewart was going to return or if they'd have to kill him off and promote Riker to Captain.
@@lagg1e He really should have taken over the movies, Promote Picard to admiral and give Riker an Enterprise (which would be a bit silly, but ofcourse the movies are gonna be about an Enterprise), but the flagship is now the USS Sovereign because someone crashed the last Enterprise and they needed their best ship flag waving fast because there's a war brewing. Given the movies wanted to focus on Data anyways having Riker, the guy who's friends with him, as captain would make a lot more sense than Picard anyway.
The Riker character was pretty much meant to be kirk copy in the first season, in the case that picard as a character wouldn't work. Roddenberry himself wasn't the biggest promoter of the idea that a boring diplomat and cultured, wellspoken english man would be placed into the captain's chair, and not a more dashing kirk type.
I hate to say but in some respects this is what Discovery got right. The crew over the 3 seasons got promotions and they went through a series of Captains and ships even if the core cast did stay the same.
True, if it were not for section 31 the Federation would be extinct. That's why Sisko is my favorite, he was one of the only high ranking officers who understood that the morality of the federation was a dream that was impossible at that time. Picard was an exemplary Starfleet Captain, but I believe most of the fleet commanders like Picard would not be able to save the federation in a war. Perhaps that is why the federation being so powerful is almost always exterminated by forces not so formidable as the Dominion.
@@lukasvillar9328 the TV series, especially TNG, portray Starfleet as being fairly non-militaristic, and primarily focused on first-contact (though they're spectacularly inept at it, constantly ignoring or paying lip service to their own Prime Directive which forbids interference), exploration, and scientific discovery. The Enterprise is supposedly the flagship of the fleet, but it's poorly outfitted for battle with terrible shielding, and inexplicably explosive circuitry which likes to knock out the junior bridge crew when a totally unrelated area of the ship gets damaged. The Enterprise hasn't been retrofitted with cloaking technology despite being a flagship, and despite the Klingons having joined the Federation at the point of TNG. The bridge doesn't have proper pressure locks and airlocks and on account of not having them does not seal the bridge during combat actions, nor are their vacuum-rated space suits in easy reach. I'm sure there's much more that you could complain about, but it's hard to look back at much of Star Trek as being anything other than silly when you've been spoilt by the likes of The Expanse
@@Topperfalkon I agree with everything you said except for the part about not having a cloaking device. In the episode where we learn Riker used to serve on a ship where they were secretly making a cloaking device, we learn that part of the agreement with the Klingons was that we wouldn't attempt to create our own cloaking devices. Everything else is spot on, though ( especially about the bridge exploding when a completely different part of the ship is hit )
@@myah528 That's fine, but why didn't the Federation work out some kind of leasing or purchase and service program? The UK has a similar agreement with the US over the F35 program (which is a little contentious given we helped build the thing, but whatever...). In other words, we wouldn't create our own cloaking devices, we'd borrow theirs, and hire on Klingon staff to operate and maintain it. Besides, I've not watched much of DS9, but in that doesn't the Defiant get its own cloaking device at some point?
@@prinzyth7395 yeah, Kirk was actually kind of a sly and charming hardass. Even in the first episode where Bones meets his old flame, instead of being possessed by the demon's perception, because of it's natural ability as a predator to lure victims with telekinesis, he just saw some old broad that Bones used to bang and kind of just went along with it. Sure, he got around but he was still, at heart, a professional space cowboy.
I thought after the Dominion war there was talk about not having enough senior officers because so many crews were lost in combat? I mean I agree with you, especially in the context of TNGs TV run. Then again, that could have been something out of a novel or fan fiction I read, so take it with a grain of salt
The only starship that they should be able to fully replicate as a compete ship were the runabouts. Larger scare starships probably had issues arise from full scale replication.
Jellico did one thing VERY wrong, forcing the crew to go to a four shift rotation ON THE EVE OF BATTLE! Making a change like that is fine, but you do it during a quiet period of routine activity, when the crew has plenty of time to work out the kinks. If the Enterprise had actually had to FIGHT when the new and unseasoned Delta shift was on duty, she might have been blown out of space.
@MonolithEnforcer I agree, Jellico is maligned, to an extent unfairly. He was what you say he was. Also, he understood the greater good, and he wasn't prejudiced against androids, he was happy to have Data as his first officer. My only complaint about him is the change in shifts. As a military member, I expect you would understand that you don't make huge organizational changes right before combat. You make them in peacetime, when you can work out the bugs without people risking getting killed in the process.
Jellico's 4 shifts is 2-hours LESS work per officer than Picard had them do. The only one who had to do more work was Riker, being the one who runs the duty rister.
The ship is horribly under manned as it is it likely needs a crew over 4000 minimum, they don't even have the people to do the shifts they have as it is it might help if the civilians were 1,000 and the crew was 1,000 but it's not the crew is just a portion of the total of around 1200 at most and as such they must rely a lot on automation and task running with no supervision you can see how understaffed they are all over the place such as in the Medical bays or engineering. Troi doesn't even really have a second councillor so she has to deal with the personal issues of 1000+ other people and hand hold their borderline dysfunctional captain as well.
magicGfinger Grant What does that make Picard? Or Captain "If time and the Federation is my enemy then time and the Federation shall get fucked" Janeway?
Not only that he is the embodiment of everything that was wrong with the pseudo-military structure of the federation that turned their starships into cruise lines with civilians and families and put them in harms way.
He probably said it's exaggerated just so fanboys would be less offended, because God forbid feelings get hurt on the Internet of all places. I don't want to be an asshole but man, all these videos on RU-vid where they stress so much "It's JUST an opinion". Like, yeah, WE KNOW. Get on with it.
As a Navy veteran myself and son of a US Navy commander, my dad told me when he saw the first episode where Riker turned down his own command, that it would likely be a career ender and naval investigative service would quietly begin an investigation to determine if there was more going on. Also, he would br transferred without discussion at the official end of his tour, usually 3 year duration. But Hollywood is Hollywood. And Jellico is outstanding.
There are three things you need to keep in mind with your critique. 1)Starfleet, at this point in the show, did not perceive itself as a military organization. 2)There's no money. There's no personal benefit to advancement. There's no actual, direct, measurable reward other than self-improvement. 3) Humans are supposed to have evolved out of the power of overriding ambitions, so if Riker believes that Starfleet is better served by him remaining where he is, then that's something he'd have to act on. Especially when he doesn't get anything out of taking on greater responsibility. This isn't a career. These people are all crazy, egotistical hobbyists. Jellico is the obvious outsider because he takes this seriously, and it definitely makes him stand out.
@@kenetickups6146 well they keep claiming they are not military organizations but all evidence to the contrary though they have more duties than a typical military organizations their critical functions are military in nature.
@@Argonnosi well rank advancement has not just to do with money but experience in the job. The military you need to advance because your locking up someone who is trying to advance and gain experience from that position. If you can't move up then you need to rethink your position because career wise you just screwed over probably a dozen officer who want that because they could deserve it and also need that experience.
@@Argonnosi as far as career wise its not an individuals call its your superiors. You need to go where your ordered to if you don't make the decision the decision will be made for you. This type of environment is not fit for complacency and I definitely would not want to serve alongside someone like that because that is dangerous and very self centered attitude not befitting any uniform.
Within universe, it's telling that Riker did not get a command during the Dominion War, a time where Starfleet was probably scrambling for as many experienced and, crucially, combat tested officers as they could find. Either they had completely lost faith in him or he was so obstinate that he kept refusing captaincy even during wartime.
Picard plays a Ressikan flute. The last vestige of an alien culture, it has a smooth calming sound, reflecting Picard's own diplomatic skills and his fascination with other cultures. Data plays the violin, an instrument that is difficult to learn and even harder to master. It demands mathematical precision, but also heart, reflecting Data's quest to become more than the sun of his parts. Riker plays the trombone.
Harry Kim plays the clarinet Miles O'brien played a cello once in the episode where Data had a girlfriend with ....issues. Also i think Spock played a mandolin or a ukelele.
Apparently, Patrick Stewart had a 6-year contract when he signed up to do TNG, and in case Patrick didn't want to return for season 7, Ronny Cox/Jellico would have been the new Enterprise-D captain. The Chain Of Command was basically an intro to the character to see how fans would react to him.
I liked Jellico too. He turned that ship into a real weapon when it was needed. This is Starfleet after all.. Picard and Riker managed the ship like "The Love Boat". As if they were on some 5-year pleasure cruise..
I must say, I think advancing your carreer is overrated. What's wrong with being satisfied with where you're at? Aside from that, yeah, you're totally right.
The real military has an "up or out" policy. If an officer doesn't get promoted, they will be pushed out. Being First Officer is supposed to be a springboard to Command, not a lifetime job. Likewise, Picard should have been made an Admiral several times over.
@@raylampert1243 The backstory on Picard is ludicrous. He commanded the Stargazer for 20 years! Was benched for 5 years and then given two more ships for another 20 years or so. At that point he should be saluting former 1st officers that lapped him in rank.
@@MrJerks93 even worse is Picard's alternate fate in "Tapestry", where he is still only a Lieutenant Junior Grade. Essentially only one promotion his entire career.
@@MrJerks93 Oh, its more ridiculous than that... He was given command of the Stargazer 4 years after graduating the Academy, which means he made Captain faster than Kirk (the _real_ Kirk, not the one from the reboots), who took 10 years to get a command (Although Kirk apparently only need 2 years to graduate the Academy, according to Memory Alpha). Picard spent 22 years there, then seven years between the loss of the Stargazer and taking command of the Enterprise. He spent 20 years commanding the Enterprise D and E, and then he was an Admiral for two years before resigning. That's a career spanning 59 years, over 70% of which was commanding two starships. If we include the 7 years between the Stargazer and the Enterprise, that's about 83% of his career as a Captain... And if you assume he entered the Academy at 19 (he apparently was denied on his first application), that means he retired at the age of 78. It wouldn't surprise me if they used the Romulan evacuation to convince him to take Admiral just so they could clear the Captain's Chair for another officer.
I thought it was a strange episode to put the idea that... First Officers are supposed to be changed out and are just quick stepping stones to Captainships. I can understand Starfleet sees the potential for a good Captain in Riker and they want him to take a ship and their a little annoyed that they keep offering him ships that he passes up. But I don't think that is evidence of stagnation... at least not in the traditional sense... Starfleet has a lot of posts... do you want to be the ship that gets assigned to study fungis discovered by some ol fart admiral that turns out just to be moss... or the ship that engages the borg/Q while traveling back/forwards in time all the while playing cards with your friends?
@@jonathanccast This, it's not just an issue with it being the flagship but with the fact that there are only so many commander spots at any given time so your not just denying an up and coming officer a spot on the flagship but denying them the rank period because you refuse to be promoted. The fact he is doing so because he for some reason wants the Enterprise to be his first command as a Captain something that was NEVER going to go happen ever no matter how good his performance your not going to be handed the Federation Flagship as your first outside of a field promotion and the logic of sticking around for that reason is even worse then simply being obsessed with working on that ship.
A veteran ship like the Enterprise would be a solid place for inexperienced officers who the fleet wants to be trained up for leadership roles to gain experience. Picard is an effective diplomat whom they can learn from and the other officers can teach them and potentially cover for errors from inexperience (it's like puting a new Lt with an experienced sergeant so they can learn quickly). Navies tend to push officers who don't rise from XO positions along as they need to fill other roles (due to retirement or in times of war, death). While Ricker is effective as First officer, he'd be more effective bringing that command and experience to get another crew into such a level, while newer officers get trained on the Enterprise.
@Mike Sampat 7 years is an eternity in an organization like Starfleet. Three years is fine as an XO, but you can push it to 5, as in Classic Trek's "5 Year Mission" -- much beyond that, and there's a problem. The purpose of an executive officer is to carry out the orders of the Captain, but it is also to observe and learn from the Captain, for the express purpose of preparing to take command of another ship. On a "command" or "flagship", especially one as heavily involved in Fleet operations as the Enterprise, the post of Executive Officer is critically important to the development of junior officers of demonstrated potential...like Commander Shelby. In the real world, after five years any rational organization would have reassigned Riker to command some remote outpost if he had actually turned down command of an offered ship, as Riker does more than once...and that, assuming that they didn't move him out of command tracks - or Starfleet itself - entirely, because the psych evals clearly missed some critical character flaw. Riker may indeed be a good XO -- but there is no place for "professional executive officers" in an organization that may have to rapidly expand at any moment, as the Dominion demonstrated..... ...I realize that Riker is polt-armored to the max as a main character, but that's the only reason he ended up as an XO for nearly a decade, counting at least seven years during TNG's run, and probably another three years, counting movies. Riker is basically Picard's batman, and needed to be relegated to shining shoes by the end of TNG.
Riker is my favourite character precisely because he turned down commands in order to stay in his job that he loves. He thus demonstrates an understanding that contentment is preferable to a mindless ambition.
I love Riker mainly because he has the most consistently good episodes of any of the main cast. Except maybe Picard. But ones like Future Imperfect where he wakes up 20 years later and he's captain, or so he thinks. Or the one where he's put on trial for murder, A Matter of Perspective. Or the one where he thinks he's going crazy and can't work out if he's trapped in prison or is on the enterprise, Frame of Mind. Or the one where he is getting secretly taken off the ship every night and having stuff poked in his head, Schisms. There's loads more. But whenever I am doing another watch through and I realise it's a Riker episode, I'm like "awww yeah" cos you know it'll be good.
Minuet made a similar comment in "11001001," about Riker being exactly where he wanted to be and knowing it. That's a powerful combination in life--being where you belong and being able to realize it while you're there--and this is the closest we ever come in Star Trek to an explanation for why Riker would go on to remain first officer of the Enterprise for decades. Ironically, they told us right from the beginning. So in that sense I agree with what you're saying about Riker turning down commands because he knows he loves what he's already got. There's a tendency in modern society to ruthlessly promote people no matter what, even though many people really shine in a lower position. Realistically, though, Riker should have moved on, because it's not just about him and his desires: It's about his position: first officer of the flagship of the Federation. Starfleet isn't about letting people hang onto plum assignments. It's about a constant cycle of development and excellence. Riker was selfish to stay in his position for as long as he did, because Starfleet lost out on a lot of good first officers who never got the benefit of serving under Jean-Luc Picard. (And even Picard himself shouldn't have been in his position for so long.) Like Scotty said in "Relics," eventually you get too old for something, and it's time to stop doing it, even if you wish you could continue. He was talking about falling in love, but it applies to anything.
@Col. Commissar Ibram Gaunt - Spot on. It's not what you need from your job it's what your job needs from you. Had he wanted long term stability he could have picked art director instead of command chain officer.
You do not see the humor? Me neither. Sounded like a butt hurt Late Night Talk Show host attacking politicians they do not like under the guise of "comedy" so as to avoid criticism. Made worse by actually not being funny.
Hey I like Chakotay but yeah the showrunners gave up on him and Harry Kim some time in season 5. I can laugh at that. Everything he said about the Chain of Command episode is something I thought when it first aired. Riker is kind of a weiner and don't get me started on Thomas
I loved Captain Jellico, I was in the NAVY and he was the first commander of a Star Ship that actually behaved like a real Navy commander. I thought Riker's behavior was unforgivable for an officer of his standing.
dragonslair951167 i totally agree with you. Jellico acted like a true captain and his subordinates are a supposed to follow orders, but this is tv and they made jellico as an ogre.
@@CallinicusHu Benjamin Sisko and all the protagonists in Star Trek are poorly written. The only thing that saves them from one episode to the next is a lot of plot armor.
@@CallinicusHu Sisko, damaged goods due to Starfleet's insane family policy, John Sheridan was perfect and I'll hear nothing else on the matter. Helena Cain was a psycho and William Adama was a flawed god.
I understand were you're coming from, but Starfleet isn't a military forces. It's more akin to the Peacekorps. They got Uniforms and Ranks for Organisation and Structure, but their primary mission is diplomacy, disaster relief and exploration. Defence and Wartime Operations were always secondary, if not even an just afterthought. They don't even have dedicaded ground forces, which bit them quite heavily in the arse during the (second) Federation/Klingon & Dominion Wars.
The Jellico episodes epitomised for me all that was wrong with not only Riker, but THE NEXT GENERATION as a whole. They all act as though they’re in a never-ending “share your feelings with the group” therapy session on a never-ending pleasure cruise, when they are *SUPPOSED* to be Starfleet officers. Ridiculous.
Since it seems to be a huge life changing commitment to join a Starfleet id understand why leisure and maintaining some work life balance could be important to not go insane or something. You can't just go home to your place after work on a spaceship after all. But during a time of crisis where the stakes are high like this its neither the time or the place.
Well good for him, he could want that all he wants but was never really an option on the table and he was really immature to ever think it was. No one ever gets the fleet flagship as their first command, there's simply no way to they get put on the shortlist of candidates if they haven't captained a ship on an on going basis before. The only probable exception to that is if there's going to be an admiral aboard who's going to severely curtail any authority their very junior flag captain has and that's definitely not what Riker wants judging by how he acted with Captain Jellico.
Riker is as sanctimonious as they come. Expects almost blind obedience and adherence to regulations from subordinates, but bucks the system whenever he doesn't like HIS orders. I've had commanders like that myself, and agree that "Chain of Command Pts. 1 and 2" points this out well. Great video. Thanks for posting!
kirk didn't want to be promoted either and literally took command of the enterprise in the motion picture because he felt like it even though he'd been out of the game awhile and the father from seventh heaven had much more recent experience with the ship. i agree with you about riker being a dick in the chain of command eps, but people not wanting to move on is a common and necessary part of a long running series.
The difference between Kirk and Riker is that James T Kirk was literally the best starship captain in the fleet. He was far more valuable to the federation with his talents commanding a starship vs his talents at administration. Hence why they gave him such a slap on the wrist for stealing the Enterprise. Any other officer would have been thrown in the stocks but Kirk happened to steal the Enterprise and save Earth which he had a habit of doing it makes sense that the Federation would give the man a starship for the sake of national security.
@@melodysdanceoff i'm not talking about him stealing the enterprise in star trek III, i'm talking about him usurping command of the enterprise in star trek the motion picture. yes kirk is a legend, but as even the film admits, the current captain of the ship was better suited to be in charge while kirk's ego and vanity led him to think he knew better.
@@Nick_Hammer An admiral can always assume the command of a starship in a crysis situation. The plot in the motion picture was such a crysis. YES we learn indirectly that Kirk took the command out of ego and the desire to get back in action, but you gotta admit ; he had the vast experience of the "TOS" chain-of-events (and what times they were !) to pick up the command when such events occur, as the one presented in the motion picture. Decker was a very talented and committed school-boy, with no real experience to back him off. Kirk, asshole or not, he had every right (even entitled) to pick up the command of the Enterprise. And it was supposed to be for this mission alone, Decker was not removed from the Enterprise or anything, on the contrary ; he served as first officer for Kirk, which allowed him to retain his honor. Kirk could have simply just left him at Starbase to jerk off for the duration of the mission, if he really wanted to be that asshole. :)
@@manupainkiller Really, Decker would have been an ideal first officer had he lived...and that was the original intent of the character when they were considering a TV revival. He's pretty much a prototype Riker....same story arc and motivations when you think about it.
It was a mistake for the writers to ever bring up Riker and his turning down promotion. First, this is Star Trek, nobody gets promoted or transfers out of their position. It's just part of the show. Hell, exactly how long did it take Sulu to get his own ship? And Chekov never got promoted. Literally everyone from TOS should have been an Admiral, by the end of the movie run.
Chekov became the xo of the Reliant. Scotty became CE of the most advanced ship in the fleet. Bones retired until he was drafted back into the service. Spock took command of the Enterprise. Apparently so backstory had it that Sulu was actually applying for the Captaincy of the Excelsior before the WOK and he had just lost out to Captain Styles. The only crew member who hadn't moved on or up during the TMP and WOK era was Uhura.
@@johnmiller7682 I am well aware that xo is a position. Chekov was a lieutenant commander at the time and was the executive officer of the USS Reliant. I think that shows that he had in fact been rising up in the ranks considering that when we met him in the TOS he was an Ensign and held the position of navigator. What we did see was that all members of the TOS crew were rising in the ranks. Hell I could even point out that Janice Rand rose from an enlisted rank to the rank of commander by the time we reach TUC,
@@melodysdanceoff I guess you're missing the point. In the real world, not only would they all have risen higher in rank, they would also not have continued to serve on the same ship. That's just not how the military works. But, because you can't do that in a TV show/ movie series, you get what we see in Star Trek.
Yeah, pretty much all of the TOS cast had been promoted by the time the films started and it continued over time. Scotty eventually made the rank of Captain as well, although he appeared to have more of a desk job rather than being in command of a starship. Sulu went on to become Captain of the Excelsior. Spock was a Captain, but preferred his role as an Academy instructor. Bones eventually became an *admiral* with Starfleet Medical. Everyone else made it as far as Commander. Contrary to popular belief, there *is* a ceiling to advancement in the military and not everyone eventually reaches the highest ranks. But the TOS crew did very well all things considered.
7:04 - "[Chakotay] was A. literally a convicted terrorist, and B. possessing of all the charisma of your average potted plant." ...Not to mention C. so thoroughly immersed in his fictional ancestral religious New-Age mumbo-jumbo that he literally left important decision-making to a spirit animal and navigation to a medicine wheel. In fact, I actually think Chakotay would be a good candidate for another video like this one.
You have a very good point. I was in the US Navy for a few months. If anyone tried leaving an important decision up to a ghost lizard, they'd either be laughed out of the military or be actually punished for sheer stupidity.
@@Cpt_Dreyeks Not to mention Chakotay's alleged "native american" traditional religious heritage was randomly cobbled together from various different tribes all over the map, and even partially made up.
@@tarvoc746 Good point. I haven't come across any one native american tribe with anything even coming close to Chakotay's beliefs. Star Trek doesn't handle religion well, does it? Excepting DS9, of course.
@@Cpt_Dreyeks DS9 still handled religion less well than its great competitor, Babylon 5. But yeah, among all the Star Trek shows, it was arguably most mature about the topic.
@@tarvoc746 Yeah. As I have never watched B5, I can't say anything to that. But, honestly, I think DS9 was able to be what it was because Rick Berman wasn't as involved in its production as TNG or Voyager.
If I was a Starfleet captain with my pick of the litter for first officer, I would have picked Data, Shelby, Worf, or La Forge, over Riker. Because by the time TNG sets out, Riker was already a seasoned XO. He should have been at the Academy, teaching tactics and brinkmanship.
And given that I found Shelby utterly annoying, I don't really feel bad for her having to settle for a first officer post elsewhere. The one I feel for is Data, who SERIOUSLY deserved a third gold pip, a red uniform, and the seat at the captain's side.
Jelico wasn't a bad person, he was just one of those people like a hard ass boss, you hate him but really he is a good leader even if you disagree with his methods
Eh, pulling rank at every opportunity and refusing to listen to your officers except when they say “yes” isn’t the mark of a great leader. And somehow he was assigned to negotiate with the Cardassians because he’d negotiated with them before. If he had been a good negotiator then they wouldn’t need to call him back to enforce the treaty they already signed.
@@LowellMorgan well yes and no, Riker was being kind of a jerk in this episode, and the cardassians have shown more than once that they see treaties as pieces of paper they can ignore when it serves their purpose. Jelico did what he was brought it for without making the final outcome worse. I think one of the reason I dont like him is he is very much like a cardassian himself. Hard headed, thinks hes right, and will push anyone out of his way who disagrees. What we really needed was a couple more episodes where he was more of a side character to get to know him better, find out if hes like that all the time or just in this situation
@@827Blacksunshine he always knew he was there temporarily. He wasn’t there to make friends, he was there to do his job before going back to his actual ship. Where I like to think of him as just as chummy and personable as Picard or Sisko, if the way he talks about his kids is any indication.
@@kaitlyn__L He was pretty impatient and manipulative. He would pretend to be your best friend until something got him mad. He was somehow both a micro-manager but also didn't want to listen to details. He would present aspects of a no-nonsense competent leader but when faced with a challenge he acted like an entitled child. Do any of us really believe Riker deserved the treatment he got at the ceremony? I know it's been hip of late to reevaluate him as good alternative to the trusting and relatively laid-back Picard, but a lot of the times it seemed like he was waving his dick around to see how much he could make people do for him since he was the captain. First thing he does is tell Riker to move to a delta shift starting that very night then moves on to other issues. Then he bites Riker's head off when Riker reports that moving to the shift wouldn't be as simple as they thought. It's almost as if it wasn't about Delta shift. In the corporate world there's a tactic of making a ridiculous demand and not explaining it, just as a way of drawing a line in the sand and seeing what you can get away with.
@@LowellMorgan that’s a valid interpretation. Whether or not he had a good reason for his demands or whether it was classic “I’m in charge so screw you” syndrome is certainly arguable.
You know why Riker stayed on the Enterprise? Because he was spending a decade building up the courage to ask Troi out again. So, you can look at it like he didn't have any ambition to reach captain, but I see it as him playing a very long game to get the girl of his dreams. Now if that isn't an ambitious plan, I don't know what is. And Chakotay has more charisma than the house plant, I'd say as much as a tree.
Riker was just picky he wanted a ship he considered equivalent to the Enterprise. All other ships were below him, that explanation fights his ego pretty well.
Or maybe he just valued the enterprise crew and had an emotional attachment to the ship? You see ego because that's what you want to see, it could easily be sentimentality
@@RKNGL Riker wanting to stay with his friends and people he considered practically family doesn't mean he didn't have an ego. They aren't mutually exclusive.
Riker would be the worst if Frakes wasn't such a characteristic actor. He does a great job at making you like the character who (as the video makes clear why) we shouldn't like. Hell even Riker doesn't like Riker, remember the ep with his transporter clone?
Frakes is a good actor but I hate the character of Riker. The con gets blasted all to hell and won't work and Riker gets mad at whoever is sitting there like it was their fault.
i said to a freind, "Voyager is great" and he said back to me, "half the ship are space terrorists" , i know they where Maquis but its the way he put it, and i burst my self laughing
I was 14 at the time this episode aired and even then when I watched it I thought Riker was being a jerk asking Jellico to grovel to get him to fly the shuttle. Jellico should have just told him to f*** off and walked out. I'm sure Riker would have been super popular around the ship after everyone heard he wouldn't fly the shuttle to save Picard because Jellico hurt his feelings.
sorry riker was correct i was in the navy when this aired no temporary co would come on make these changes aking trained engineers be tacticals officiers, changing shift rotation on a wim that is just asking to break the good order disicple of a ship
@@TheSuperhomosapien Jelico already relieved Riker of duty. What's he going to do, relieve him again? Send him to the brig? Riker would have responded "Go ahead. It's better accommodations than Picard's torture-Hilton."
@@DrownedInExile And then what's Riker going to say to Troy the next time they sit down for a drink at 10 forward when she knew Riker could have chosen to fly the mission to save Picard, Worf and Dr. Crusher and opted not to out of pride.
@@TheSuperhomosapien After the way Jelico treated the crew, including his own command staff? I very much doubt they would be sympathetic to him. I will say this. Riker should have known better than to aggressively question his c/o in front of another officer. Jelico was right to relieve him for that. Much as I enjoyed Riker telling off Jelico, I also wish he had apologized for his own poor conduct.
From what I understand in a non fiction fleet, someone who refuses that many promotions would either be forcibly retired or transferred to some backwater assignment so an officer with more ambition can get some experience in a plum slot like the Enterprise XO.
He turns down promotions for one reason: because he otherwise wouldn't be on the show. The story telling takes a lot of time to show us just how exceptional most of the main characters are at what they do; the all-star crew of the USS Enterprise led by the greatest and most complete leader of all-time. It seems they use the background story about Riker turning down promotions as a means to say to the viewer 'hey, this guy is pretty exceptional as a leader' but clearly he has some things holding him back which will be explored... Typically a reluctant leader type is humble but Riker isn't humble at all. He is brave though and he tends to gets things done. I think the fact that he's flawed is important for interesting story telling. All the characters have their flaws but together they're unstoppable. One of the many things that makes this show so successful is how effective they were at exploring each character and then leveraging that time investment later... Just my two cents.
"He turns down promotions for one reason: because he otherwise wouldn't be on the show. " Very valid point. As a matter of fact George Takei is a good example of an actor who wanted his character to take a promotion and he wound up promoting himself right out of the Star Trek movies but for the occasional appearance of the USS Excelsior which his character, Sulu, became the captain of. Besides turning down promotions is not a negative point. Often times people, even in the real world, whether its in a corporation or in the military prefer to pass on promotions because their personal skills or likes are better suited where they currently are rather than where their superiors want them to be.
In Chain of Command Riker came off like a teenager that wouldn't accept his new stepfather rather than an experienced military officer with a new captain. I found it unrealistic to have Riker offered command so few years after being promoted to commander just to create dramatic tension between him and Shelby. Same way it was unrealistic to have someone as young as Kirk in command of flagship. At the rate they go, everyone should hit admiral before they have 20 years in.
Jellico was deliberately flawed. He's the kind of boss that we have all had to deal with: Walks onto the ship like the new sheriff in town and changes a system that was working just fine. Instead of adapting to his new (temporary!) command, he demands that everyone else adapt to HIM in the middle of a crisis, because he's the boss. It's pretty unreasonable if you ask me. BUT, he also turns out to be exactly the kind of hardass that the Federation needed to negotiate with a warlike species who only respect pig-headed aggression. He reminds me of the character of Captain Sobel in _Band of Brothers,_ who was a tyrant and a bully but ABSOLUTELY helped get them through the war alive because of all the brutal PT he made them do in training. Sometimes you know your boss is not the best boss, but still "good enough" to get the job done. That's Jellico. Riker and Troi's relationship was always so weird to me. It's like a Double Friendzone where they would rather see other people but are also committed to each other as a safety net.
In order to do what he had to do, he had to take Guinans advice to throw away the book of Captain Picard. If he followed what they did before, then he would be redundant. By forcing everyone on a different schedule and path, they are forced to go to Jellico for answers and direction. Keeps them on their toes.
@@boydmerriman exactly and clearly the Federation 1) wanted Picard back and 2) didnt want a shooting war with Cardassia. Not only would it had been redundant but also demoralizing to very officer trying to fix the mess.
Jellico wasnt a nice guy, no one said so, but he did what had to be done, that was what he was there for. In an emergency situation sometimes you have to be a bit ass and get things done, what is unreasonable with that? I mean, it was clear that it was a temporary situation and everyone had to work trough a few hard weeks and than anything could be fine, but instead Riker risked to make a dangerous situation to a full fledged crisis, just because he is like a 5 year old... :D
System DOESN'T work just fine..... That's entire point, reason jellico knows this and was brought there to make just these types of changes only he would understand as necessary for this mission.
I'm sure this is tongue-in-cheek. But in Chain of Command, Jellico had already relieved Riker of duty and replaced him as first officer before asking him to pilot the shuttle. What's Jellico going to do, relieve him of duty again? Right before asking to pilot the shuttle, Jellico told Riker exactly how little he thought of him first. Yeah, great people skills there. Riker fired back in kind, and the look on Jellico's face? Plus the way he scampered out like a little jackrabbit as soon as Riker agreed? Jellico struck me as a man who can dish it out, but can't take it. Someone used to being surrounded by yes-men and yes-women. Can anyone imagine him facing off with the Q, having to swallow his pride to stop a war or save his crew? I couldn't!
Jellico swallowed his pride the moment he steped into Rikers rooms. He knew, that it was more important to get the best men do the job, then to be stubborn and not ask Riker. Right there Jellico does the right think, and is swallowing his pride.
@@Toremneon Jellico was easily the second best captain in star fleet, behind only Picard. Riker was a jackhole in Chain of Command because the plot required him to be. Jellico's orders all make sense, delta shift so that the crew are more well rested, working 6 hours instead of 8, to minimize mistakes in a volatile situation. Promoting the supercomputer to first officer to do any crazy calculations or game theories, so, again, decisions can be made instantly instead of after hours of study. Recognizing that Riker was one of the best pilots and doing what he had to in order to get the leverage he needed to complete the mission. I wish he had his own series...
Jellico only asked Riker to do it because his little ego (having it out with riker) was willing to endure a beating in exchange for his big ego (not failing the mission and either looking like an idiot to the admiralty or dying with the enterprise destroyed) to win. I don't think he ever would have done it just to save picard's life.
If the captain was always like Jellico, Q would have gave up on humanity immediately. There is nothing interesting about him at all. It is rather weird how the video narrative is totally derailed be the fact that Jellico had already fired him, a fact that was left out of that entire segment to further smear Riker's character. There is plenty wrong with Riker, but that's just silly saying that he's acting entitled when he was fucking fired..
A small correction here: Riker had been relieved of his duty at the point where Jellico wanted him to fly the shuttle. Therefore, he was not obligated to follow Jellico's orders and could very well ask to be asked. It was still a little douchy from him that he savored the moment so much.
Relieved of duty, not decommissioned. At that moment, he was no longer the Enterprise first officer, but he was still a Starfleet employee and assigned to the Enterprise crew, therefore under the orders of Jellico.
Doesn't that just mean he was relieved of his responsibilities on the Enterprise, and was awaiting reassignment from Starfleet? Basically, he was 'on leave'. So, he doesn't have to listen to Jellico, but he also can't go anywhere restricted to 'on duty' personnel, also. But, he was still being childish and stubborn. Further proving that he was right that he wasn't ready for command. My question has always been 'what changed/happened that made him feel he was ready to be a captain'??
@@freakctc It could perhaps vary by the military or military-like organization, but you can easily be recalled for anything. Even if you're on leave, you can be recalled when required. You're supposed to be compensated ideally after the fact, but in the case of averting a war, yes that counts as emergency enough for a CO to invoke a recall to duty in the manner they see it.
@@goranmihajlovic6179 Not just recalled from leave, but since commissions in Star Fleet is similar to those in the US, then you can be recalled from retirement. Commission is for life, as evidenced by Dr McCoy being as he called it, "drafted."
My problem with Riker is as follows. Data: we're under attack Riker: Raise shields and power weapons. Picard: It's my job to say that, Mr three-pips. It's like they had two captains on the bridge.
Actually no. It's the first officer's job to give out the more detailed orders to the crew while the Captain handles the overall strategy and makes the big decisions. The Captain could say "Red Alert" which prompts the first officer to order shields, phasers, torpedoes, power settings etc.
Starfleet of the TNG era is not a military in the strictest definition of the term. After the treaty with the Klingons at the end of Undiscovered Country the implication is that there is a significant amount of de-armament and re-purposing of Starfleet into an exploratory, scientific, and diplomatic institution first and foremost. They have the capacity to act as a military as a last resort, and you could say they suffered for their idealism in the Dominion War, but that same idealism is what makes Starfleet the model of a progressive, individualistic organization. Military organization involves a great deal of dehumanization, both of enemies without and of individuals within. Starfleet is nothing so primitive and regressive as a "Space Military."
Starfleet is nothing so primitive and regressive as a "Space Military."? And they the federation paid that price for their arrogance and shortsightedness in the Dominion war in spades. The dehumanization, both of enemies without and of individuals within is a necessary evil of a proper and effective national security. If Star Fleet actually took their job seriously, and the Federation was not so damn soft, the losses of WOLF 359 would not of been as server, the Dominion wouldn't get a much of a foot hold in the Alpha quadrant as it did, and Sisko wouldn't have to perform war crimes to save the Federation. Every Galaxy class ship had to go though extensive retrofits to be combat capable for the Dominion War, and while the galaxy class vesicles where in space Dock, older Miranda, Excelsior and Ambassador had to take the brunt of the fighting till then which place too many ships and lives at risk. There had to be even Constitution class vesicles brought back into service during the dominion war.
@@lukasperuzovic1429 Did they? Because I seem to recall that all of the militarized civilizations took it on the chin and it was only the federation's technical and scientific knowhow that won the day. Hell, section 31 effectively ensured the war would be won no matter what happened by preemptively poisoning the founders. And made a peaceful settlement possible by providing a cure.
@@lukasperuzovic1429 I am so sick of people stupidly bringing up Wolf 359. At the time, no one was a match for a Borg cube. They could adapt to theoretically anything. Brute force did not stop them. Only unorthodox strategy and technological ingenuity eventually beat them. I dare say even if the Romulans, Klingons, and Cardassians all threw their entire navies at the cube, they would've lost just as badly. 1000 ships shooting a cube may as well be 1 ship if that cube has adapted to their weapons. Like birds trying to peck a tank. Even the upgraded combat ships at the battle of sector 001 were eventually going to get crushed if not for Picard having a link to the collective's thoughts.
@@lukasperuzovic1429 And yet, at Wolf 359, the Whale Space Probe's incident, V'Ger and many, many more examples the militaristic solutions failed miserably or stood no chance of succeeding, and it was up to scientists and engineers and diplomats to solve these crisis with brains and words. In fact, if the more militaristic elements of Starfleet had succeeded in Undiscovered Country, the Federation might still be embroiled in a bitter war they very well could lose to the Klingons. (Yesterday's Enterprise) No, Star Trek's Federation is better off by being scientific and diplomatic foremost and a military as the last resort. Both in-universe and as a Sci-Fi franchise. Discovery is such a miserable slog because it is generic Sci-Fi action war show with militaristic drones as its main cast.
6:31 Actually... The always excellent SFDebris in his Second Chances review proposed an alternative that would have shaken up the crew dynamic for season 7 without outside-universe interference. He proposed that after meeting the ambition Thomas Riker, Riker realized how much of a waste his career has been, leaves the Enterprise to command another ship (to maybe intermittently return in future episodes). Thomas Riker would be reassigned to the Enterprise (thus enabling that Frakes would still be a regular) at some bridge station. Though it wouldn't change the problem with a lingering First Officer, considering the immortal android would become first officer, presumably for the next 30 years until Picard dies of natural causes.
I do not disagree with your assessment, except for 1 point Picard was in his 50s, the average earth human life span was 120, so Data could have been Picard's first officer for 60+ years. but yes, there would have been nothing to stop them have Riker get his own ship, maybe even take a few other charactors with him and have Riker's ship assigned to the same sector as Enterprise so you frequently get episodes based on Riker's ship or joint missions
+Terry Forsdyke Forgot that humans live till their '20s in the Federation. Whoops. The slight problem with have William Riker as a recurring character in this new system would be that Frakes would need to regulary pull double duty. Will could return for an episode every now and then, but probably shouldn't be over used, else what's the point of the shakeup.
@@terryforsdyke306 The problem with that is that, persumably, Starfleet works along similar lines as a real life military and they have a timeline for when they expect every officer to be promotable or just serve at a given duty station/unit/ship. In the US military active duty personnel are reassigned every 2 - 4 years, regardless of whether they're promoted or not. So this would mean that Data wouldn't likely serve as XO of the Enterprise until Picard retires, only until Starfleet Command decides that it's time that Data moves as XO to another ship or be given a command of his own.
He was wrong about Chakotay. Chakotay was not a convicted terrorist, he was a SUSPECTED terrorist. Until he is caught, tried, found guilty, fitted with cozy anklewear, and sent to a penal colony on Earth's most gorgeous piece of real estate... just suspected.
I think the jellico episode showed what star fleet thought of him, riker was peeved he was not given command and he pouted and gave jellico trouble instead of doing his job.
Riker's job performance on that episode, is proof of the mantra: how good you are at a job, depends on how good your boss THINKS that you are at the job. Riker might have had experience on the Enterprise-D as it's XO and briefly as a Captain for 7 years, but a new Captain comes around and calls Riker out, for not getting the job done..and even relieving Riker of duty. My biggest "beef" about the whole deal about the plot of adjusting to a new Captain, is that there was never any type of discussion, saying "there's a new Captain on the ship. Your a senior officer on the ship. You need to set an example and adjust to the new Captain's agenda, without complaining to the junior officers or crew. Talk to me about any concerns, complaints, etc...in private. " Jellico could have told this to Riker and Riker could have told this to Geordi. (Riker did tell Geordi that the Captain won't listen to him, but still...venting to Riker, is better than venting to a 22 year old Ensign, fresh out of the academy. ) Picard from "Yesterday's Enterprise" didn't have an open discussion about a battle plan, he had a briefing. The fans were upset, because it was Dick Jones, from Robocop, calling out Riker, on the four-shift rotation.
In his review of the TNG episode Second Chances, SFDebris discussed how the show would have improved if commander Riker had indeed moved on and off the Enterprise. By giving Will Riker his own ship, that would have left TNG with lieutenant Thomas Riker, a whole new character for Jonathan Frakes to play and an entirely new, fresh dynamic to play off of. Who would succeed Will? Would Thomas fit in, perhaps rekindle his romance with Troi? Plenty of story opportunities never explored.
The stagnant nature of starfleet crews is something that always has bothered me about trek. You complain about this one guy but nearly the entire crew of the “original” Enterprise maintained their positions and functions more or less over several decades! Spock never gets a command, Scotty never moves on to teach his genius to students at the academy, Uhura... poor poor Uhura!
Spock was captain of the Enterprise in Star Trek 2. It's never made clear why, after Star Trek 4, there is more than 1 captain on the Enterprise. Plot, I guess. Scotty is made Captain of Engineering of the Excelsior, and I believe retains that rank for the rest of the films. Chekov is first officer of the Reliant. Sulu is made captain of the Excelsor. Uhura.... err... yeah.
WRONG!!! Scotty became cpt. Scott His methods & discoveries were standard reading for Starfleet engineering cadets. Uhura was head of Starfleet communications. Sulu got his own command. As did Chockov. Nurse Chappel became an MD Mckoy head of Starfleet medical. On & off again "Admiral Kirk!" as Kahn put it. Granted this happend in the films & after decades. Which makes. Since it's stupid to just to get coumfirtable withe the cast & promote them all away when you're show only got a 3 yr. run. M.A.S.H. lasted more the twice the actual war it depicted & some of them never left or were promoted. If you didn't leave out of shear boredom or actually die.
James Weems Largely within the narrative run of their own franchise the crew were remarkably stagnant. Yes they often moved on, like Admiral Kirk in TMP, but they still without fail always returned to their respective roles when it was time for another on screen adventure. Kirk dropped in rank twice to return to the captaincy, Uhura didn’t think twice about her teaching position when the plot decided she needed to come along. Hell, I think they even make a funny stab at the issue in the whale movie! When Pavel whistfully reports his rank as admiral, a position easily attainable for a skilled and experienced officer with decades of service! We don’t know why Kirk kept command of the Enterprise after Deckers ascendency, he was still an admiral on temporary assignment and there were no doubt many young officers bucking for command. Scotty is easily one of the most skilled and experienced engineers in starfleet and was given positions that demonstrated that, yet always shortly after the starting credits he was returned to the engine room of the Enterprise, funnily enough even during his appearance on the D. I think that episode was not only a great tribute to TOS Scotty as a character and the original crew as a whole but it also shines a light on that trope by forcing the character and the audience to admit that at some point it’s just not plausible for it to keep happening. The whole setup if you go by established events seems to suggest that he’s just going to show up and start running engineering lol.
There's a modicum of justification in the original series for the static organization, in that they're on a "five year mission" of deep exploration, implying that they're not in regular contact with central command for transferring crew. Unfortunately, in practice the show puts them in regular enough contact with HQ to blow this justification out of the water.
You did pretty much nail the _real_ reason why Riker never budged an inch in seven seasons- writers' hands were tied, he was a permanent cast member. They'd tried making a significant change to the main cast in season 2 when Dr. Pulaski replaced Dr. Crusher and that was, pun intended, a crushing failure (although that was largely due to bad writing of her character similar to what had sabotaged Tasha Yar more than anything else). Jonathan Frakes was there for the whole show, and really the only opportunity they ever had to do something significant with him was if they had gone ahead with the shocking swerve of killing Picard off in The Best of Both Worlds pt. 2 and made Riker the captain of the Enterprise for the rest of the series (which, let's be honest, would have been a disaster, because TNG without Picard just wouldn't have worked).
The only way to make that work would be to capitalize on the task force ideas they went with in Redemption and Descent. They could have assigned Riker his own command within it. Hell, make him squirm by giving Shelby a ship so they're equals, or keeping her as his first officer in a new command.
@ True, but he did surface restrained and calm with emotional undertone phenomenally. It always felt over the top when he showed anger, but the moments where he did the command or diplomacy equivalent of a dad saying "I'm not angry, just disappointed" were generally pure gold.
Exactly. That is precisely one of the things wrong with the real word. This silly notion that people absolutely __must__ be promoted upward over time, or else they're bad at their job. Some people are ideally suited for the position they're holding, and promoting them any higher would turn them from an excellent to a mediocre or even poor .
There's a lot to be said for knowing your limits and working effectively within them, rather than pushing the envelope and getting someone else killed. As a society we make fun of beta-males, but they are immensely useful to any hierarchical organization.
Yeah he was, I think the main problem was that he was acting like he was the captain of the Enterprise or something... Oh wait. but really I think they all knew it was temporary and personally I can see how changing from a three to a four shift rotation in a short time might cause more problems in the short-term, but they ARE military officers after all.
If your ship is suddenly switching roles from exploration to military intervention, I'd say a change in shift rotation is getting off easy as far as potential consequences go.
@@herbderbler1585 Ya got a good point there actually. Perhaps it's partly because they didn't like being in the dark in terms of why Picard left, but they ARE military so...fo be expected at times. yeah. Maybe he (Jelicho) was right captain for the time, as we're what he did. I mean, he DID get Picard back.. Dang this is hard to swallow I have to think on this, haha.
It was probably written by someone who didn't actually understand the bigger picture. Else it would be more sympathetic to the Captain or scolding of Riker. Like in many other series where both learn something, one learns you can't be strict to the rules well above rational practicality, and the other learning that you need structure for things to run reliably. I suspect andromeda, stargate, and babylon 5 all had episodes doing just that (I don't recall off the top of my head).
Agreed. Riker keeps doing the sucking in the chest thing to look macho, but it ends up being lame and cringy. Besides, his chronological snobbery and self-righteous preachy bearing to ppl from the past/Q continuum insufferable. “We no longer invest in things, we invest in ourselves.” Shut up, Roddenberry. Yes, I see you.
he certainly was. though it's kind of nice that he (and the other characters) aren't perfect goody little two-shoes, that would be boring. A good character needs flaws.
There is one reason that Riker never became a captain. Because the producers and writers were too stupid to realize that you can't just make the first officer that talented and then keep him as first officer. In the real world, Riker would have either remained captain of the Enterprise after the incident with the Borg or would have been given command of the first galaxy-class starship that completed construction. It is highly unlikely that Starfleet would have given command back to Picard, not after he had been assimilated. He would have either been promoted or reassigned, he would not have remained in command of the Federation flagship. Actually, you can easily say that Picard had the same supposed character flaw as Riker. He was offered promotion in the first season to admiral, and offered the chance to run Starfleet Academy. Was he selfish for not allowing others the chance to be captain of the Federation flagship? He undoubtedly had other chances for promotion as well. Personally, when TNG was first shown I hoped that Picard would be killed in "Best of Both Worlds" and that Riker would become captain and Shelby would be his first officer. If the writers and producers had any sense, they would have given Riker his own ship and promoted Data to either first officer on the Enterprise or first officer of Riker's ship. The show could have followed two different crews. It would have been difficult, but it could have been done. As for your comments about Jellico, I'm going to ignore those. There is a difference between being a jackass and being a good captain.
Honestly, I would have liked to see Riker become captain, and learn that commanding the Federation flagship is not as glorious as he thought it would be.
Something that they never seem to quite get in Star Trek that happens in the real world and even (gasp) the Star Wars Universe, is that fleet's have admirals and that admirals don't just sit behind desks and that ships that admirals use as flagships have to have captains (flag captains they were called in the Royal Navy at one point). The idea is that the Admiral runs the fleet and the captain runs the ship he is using as his flagship. This is taken to absurd levels in DS9 when Sisko is charged with running huge fleets of ships while still being a mere captain. In reality he would have be promoted to admiral and someone else would have been in direct command of the Defiant under his orders. Star Trek can't even seem to differentiate between the various ranks of admirals that would be required to run task groups, task forces, and fleets. There seems to be a C in C but little in the way of organized structure between him and the other admirals or captains of the fleet. The smart move to fix this problem in TNG as well as other Star Trek series, would have been to promote Picard to admiral leave the Enterprise as flagship and promote Riker to captain of the Enterprise. I mean even that would be a stretch in real life but it's better than nothing. The original cast was even worse. By the end of the movies with the original cast, Spock was a captain serving as a first officer, Scotty held the rank of captain serving as first officer, Chekov was a commander serving as either helmsman or at ops (not quite sure) and Uhuru was a Commander serving as a communications's officers, on what was by that point most definitely NOT the flagship of the fleet. Only Sulu was promoted in a remotely proper way and that only happened because Takai and Shatner couldn't stand each other by that point. In the real world Spock would have be promoted to run his own ship and both Uhuru and Chekhov would have been promoted to first officer at the least on either the Enterprise or another ship.
@@ashleighelizabeth5916 Truthfully the Trek approach to officers was always a lot more laissez faire. The model is relatively egalitarian, and your current assignment seems a lot more important than your current rank. The simple reality is that Starfleet places very little emphasis on the latter
Jellico was not a good captain, his attitude genuinely was draconian purely for the fact that he did run the ship like a contemporary military vessel. Starfleet, however, is not a contemporary military. It's not even strictly a military, it follows an entire ethos of individual thinking and questioning authority. More than that, life aboard starships is less strict for a reason. Philosophy aside, when you're spending years of your life on a vessel without any ability to maintain a real life outside of it, a more relaxed approach is necessary for mental wellbeing. Troi, for instance, doesn't wear a uniform because it helps her do her job better, something a good captain would appreciate. And you're right, being an ass is not the same as being a good leader, a line I feel Jellico crosses
I think the biggest mistake the writers made was not forcing Riker into the Captain’s chair after Best of Both Worlds. His arc was completed, he’d proved he could be the captain. Not to mention that like half the Starfleet had been destroyed along with most of the good captains so Starfleet Command likely would have forced him to be Captain of some rebuilt/new ship despite his protest. He’d literally already been promoted, there’s no going back.
I actually like Chakotay. People are too hard on him. He's wise, learned, cool under pressure and isn't afraid to stand up to Janeway when she's about to make a mistake. Scorpion and Equinox are two good examples. He also never wrecked the ship which is more than can be said for Riker. All Riker has going for him is a beard and a weird way of sitting down.
There's a couple points you're glossing over in your condemnation of Riker. So I'll try to cover the for and against sides as evenly as I can. Yes, Riker and crew should have followed his orders to a T once he gave them. He was the captain (if an assumed acting capacity as it was expected to be a short term stint) his orders were the rule of the land. Yes, that was a jarring reaction to see them moaning and complaining and constantly second questioning Jellico's decision. THAT SAID. Coming into a Flash Point situation as you stated and pouring gas all over the fire and cackling maniacly while doing so is just poor command form. Generally command change overs are a long and intimate process. Anytime someone tries to come in and swing their dick around like they're the biggest super star on the block simply because is over compensating for a lack of quality. Breaking the crew up into four shift teams meant that there would be an acclimitazation process as the crew adjusts to their new schedules and work mates. Making policy changes on the fly during tense negotiations and getting into pissing contests with cardassians just because you happen to be behind the wheel of the biggest stick Star Fleet can give you again, is poor command choice. And let's not even get started on how inanely stupid Admiral Nacheyev was for sending Captain Picard the aforementioned CO and arguably best of the fleet at this point both diplomatically as well as tactically, and sending him and two members of his command staff off on a suicide mission. Not only did you just send what could be debated as probably the most poorly conceived spec ops team set up, but you also knee capped your fleet flagship's command staff, and THEN compound that poor scenario by tossing Jellico in on top of it? Nah. Riker wasn't being a baby, he was trying to articulate that Jellico didn't need to front as hard as he was. That if you want the crew of the best ship to perform like the best crew, that you have to earn that respect, and build that relationship. Not just come in cod swinging around like the biggest pendulum and expect every one to toe the line to your stupid whims.
While I think he was a bit too hard on Riker at some points, such as you mention here, I think we are likely in agreement that Riker overall treated the crew more as a club than a work environment. His main benefit was that his confidence left him able to take control of the ship with pretty much no problematic anxiety. But he was extremely selfish and shortsighted, and these two things would have made him a terrible captain anyway, as he looked more to the immediate crew than the needs of the Federation as a whole. He simply did not care about the big picture, only the situation of himself and those immediately close to him. In this way he contrasted sharply with Piccard. I tend to think some of the criticisms in the video were unfair, but agree that he was not a good commander.
Exactly, who does he think he is, captain of the ship or something? As if they are facing a war, acting like a military commander instead of on a cruise ship making sure the drinks are all served on time? You Millennials really have no clue about reality.
@@ralphgoodman4670 lol, That's adorable ^_^ "reality" regarding a ficticious tv show set 400 years into the future. Setting aside the contrived set up of the show, with sending three of the flagship of the fleets command staff on a sooper sekrit mishun, there were elements about Jellico that did work, but his insistence on trying to ramrod sweeping changes that did make sense on top of a hillariously stupid 4 shift structure on a work day, along with not keeping his command staff in the loop when he changes things up on the fly during tense negotiations (Because lets be real a moment. This wasn't war. This was a negotiation. Jellico was there to deal with them, not shoot them.) On top of all this, the super contrived plot to remove Picard from the ship was just a ploy. There was no base. No bio weapon. It was all just a hilariously stupid ploy to draw the CO of the fleets flagship off vessel to milk him for intel, and the Federation (looking at you Nacheyev) were all too happy to fall face first into the trap.
The real question is, why does everyone have to "advance their careers??" Perhaps someone is just happy with what they are doing, and want to keep doing it.
blizzy1978 Particularly in this time period. Advancing one's military career in modern times is generally incentivized by glory, money, and better benefits on retirement. In their day, literally the only reason to advance is for personal fulfillment and the glory of being "X rank in starfleet." Riker is the first officer on THE FLAGSHIP of STARFLEET. He was for over 7 YEARS, under, arguably, the greatest captain to ever hold the mantle of "captain of the flagship." I mean, what could possibly give Riker greater fulfillment or glory than that? His own ship would not be the flagship, at least, not until Picard retires.
Part of the jobs of First officer is to be a replacement for the Captain if they are incapacitated. This is a war ship, people die. If Riker doesn't think he would make a good Captain then he shouldn't be First Officer. Send him to a training school, or some in charge of a Logistics unit.
@@GraysonGranda Being the skipper of his own ship and training the next generation of commanders like Picard did. Also, Picard was a great captain and Riker clogged him up and prevented other officers, like Shelby, from being groomed by him. Each year of Riker jamming the flow was another officer missing a chance to be trained by, and learn from, Picard and that is a horrible waste. Also, Riker was a decent captain when he was in command so he missed his chance to train and groom junior officers too. I get this this was a TV show and that you keep a good cast together, but this is also a military organization and passing experience is part of the job.
@@randallcase1009 you make the best point. Serving as Exo under Picard is, in its own way, a continuation of training. Learning doesn't stop after graduating Starfleet academy. While others argue lack of ambition, lack of power lust, seeking glory: Self betterment, not greed, lust, etc are all qualities extolled in this utopian Startrek future.I believe that while these attributes may be true and visible to many civilians living on Earth, those accepted into Starfleet pass psych evals. 1 would think specific qualities are looked for in command track recruits such as leadership qualities. And, a desire to better the Federation. Riker remains where he is on the Enterprise simply because *he's in his comfort zone* and not because his stagnancy helps Starfleet. Its a selfish reason and I find it interesting he wasnt rotated (under orders) into another assignment after X period of time. Even in real life modern day Navies, sailors are rotated during their tour of duty. You hamper their growth and learning if they only do 1 task for their entire 4/6 years tour.
@@TimT69 Sisko was the right captain at the right time. This doesn't make him the best captain of Starfleet, just the best captain for a wartime footing.
Ooh we are creating quite pantheon here. What about god Emperores Janeway mother of longing and loss, destroyer of worlds, ender of timelines, tormentor of species, assimilator of the assimilators, the cause of the stranded, mother of genocide.
IIRC a 4 shift rotation means less work for the crew. As it is a 6 hour shift instead of an 8 hour shift. (Though it can also be 12 hour shifts with 2 shifts per day meaning the person has 36 hours between shifts that is rare and more an industrial thing.)
