Why Controllers Don't Suck in Team Fortress 2 

Tide video when? 😡

demoknight tf2

Troll the haters with flick stick

Carmen Winstead

I'm enjoying the recent resurgence in interest for controllers in tf2, but something surprisingly absent in all of this is a mention of koymu. He's a spy main who uses stick controls to play spy, and he definitely hasn't gotten the attention he deserves.

Yes

Solar light moment

Gyro controls are legit 100 times better than a regular mouse. It takes some time getting used to but the fidelity of control is absolutely unmatched.

@@helium-379 No. I use gyro aiming ever since I got my Steam Controller in 2017, I absolutely love gyro and a couple months ago I completely switched from mouse to gyro, training my gyro aim, despite me playing so much better with a mouse that it'll take some time to get back to my level on gyro. And still, I will confidently say, gyro is NOT better than mouse... but it's up there! Literally, I think we can confidently say that gyro is just as good as a mouse, not worse! Now, there are indeed things that gyro has an advantage over mice, but it still doesn't make it actually better: flick stick's ability to flick in any direction instantly is pretty much infinitely better than what mouse can do - flick stick has infinite velocity, it's instant, while mouse is unfortunately restricted by laws of physics not letting you teleport it; some people swear by movement on controller, saying that it's much better on mnk; extensive gamepad configuration sometimes can achieve something you could never on mnk; and most importantly - gyro is easier to get better at, the same exact person with no previous mouse or gyro experience will play better with gyro in the same time, it feels more natural and is easier to master (on higher levels of aiming - no difference, both equally really hard to get better at, so much so that the difference evens out).

@@kurushimee gyro and MnK are the closest thing to each other to finally bridge the gap and MAYBE convince ppl aim assist is bullshit

nice pfp

funny enough, controllers were used by demoknights before gyro was a thing - since the turning restrictions of the demo charge didn't apply to analog sticks, you had demoknighs using controllers to trimp back in 2012.

@@thecorruptedbit5585 Interesting

Yeah But How About S : PS3 And XBOX360 Team Fortress 2 ? They Still Alives Presents Todays ! +1

Love that album nice pfp

I mean imagine if orange box was on the Wii that will be something

Bet

I play on a calculator

@@welikedominos6583 that would be cool tho ngl

Demoknight wii f2

It gives the option to have very slow and precise movement and fast and wide movement at the same time, just like a mouse does.

I remember when a side order promo came out where the person playing had motion controls turned off and the community started crying

As someone who only saw the beginning of gyro with the PS3 Controller. Yeah. I legit only saw it was a gimmick that was stupid, poorly implemented, and would never really be worth putting time into remembering the existence of.

man you didn't just say guimicky

@@DarthSears was there any ps3 game that allowed you to aim with the six axis? Of the top of my head the only two uses that I can remember were aiming grenades in Uncharted and moving the hurricane weapon in Ratchet and Clank. Definitely gimmicky in this case, but that hardly compares to the capacities of the controllers shown here.

Splatoon 1 and 2 convinced me gyro aiming can work. It takes some used to, but I mean is it really any less or more naturl than pressing keys and flinging a mouse around?

@@berni1011 it's definitely more natural than using a stick, given that developers literally have to cheat on your behalf (aim assist) for it to be bearable

THANK YOU

But then how does Gmod do it? You can walk slowly and aim. It's either other command made especially for Gmod, or just Strafe but remade for Gmod Purposes.

How do I add a controller

@@shotgunfarmersfan22 If you don't have new technology (XBox 360 controller) then you sadly have to get a remote controller (shown in a video), unless you have wired version of controller. PS3 or other, I don't really know, but probably Bluetooth or USB cable is enough.

@@nyancatec I have a wired ps4 tho

i vaguely remember Metroid Prime doing this.

yeah i remember Far Cry on the Wii using it

some of the ones I remember are GoldenEye 007 and System Shock

@@snek9320 perfect dark too.

There is one that actually exists. The Asus ROG Chakram indeed has a stick, and Steam actually released an update that adds config support for it, so you could probably use Flick Stick on it. However, it's quite expensive.

I''ve seen controller and keyboard (mostly for flight sims), but certainly never joystick and mouse Sounds like a logical setup tho, since the main downside of mouse is the lack of precision movement

so like a gaming trackball?

@@SolarLight The “A Sus”

@@rompevuevitos222 Because Mouse+keyboard users are renowned for their use of Aim Assist and general inability to aim- no, that's the joystick's issue. Joysticks act much faster than a mouse, but a mouse is far more precise than a joystick. Most if not all shooters for consoles have aim assist to some degree, whereas most if not all PC shooters don't. Precision in a shooter is a must have and it makes sense that systems would be put in place to fix a hardware issue. For the Controller you need aim assist as you cannot move just a pixel over, whereas for the mouse you need to turn up the sensitivity in order to spin faster.

I looked this up and holy shit, that’s amazing honestly. Still very cursed, but I had a good laugh over this. Definitely looks like the type of controller you’d get at a friends house when you play co-op games.

@@starryari2389 That was the only good thing about the wii u, the pro controller was an obvious purchase so with the monitor controller alongside it meant everyone had a good controller!

@@starryari2389 what search term did u use?

@@alex.g7317 "Steam controller prototype"

@@alex.g7317 I know this is a year old but I honestly just searched "steam controller prototype", went to images, and scrolled a little, but it also seems like there's a whole list of steam controller prototypes so you could probably look through anything that looks like those as well hehe

ehhhhhhhh I mean it’s more flexible but it’s harder than controller but for a bit more reward and it’s harder than pc for less reward.

Why is gyro controls so underated? They make small and big adjustments all the like so much easier

@@hudsonator7259 Outrageously hard to master, far more than mouse or sticks on top of being actively unfun to learn. Plenty of devs that want to make it the standard control scheme, but it's not happening any time soon, if ever.

@@Hubbleshubbles Is it really that hard? I find I got better results with gyro than with sticks after not that much practicing in a bunch of fps

That's the last time I hear my brother talk about how Xbox controllers are better than Switch Pro Cons...

now i legit want flick stick in splatoon since the right stick can't do vertical aim anyways

Yeah I agree.

I think fortnite also has built-in flick stick controls aswell, and boomerang x but that's all of the games I'm familiar with that has those natively and on the switch

@@kdsm6424 fn motion controls suck in comparison to splatoon

@@resyntax camera recenter isn't flick stick, while it can do similar things it isn't as fast

Z targetting was in ocarina of time long before botw but I see you point

@@PorkSnorkle I actually haven’t played OoT (but I’ve played other Zelda games w/z-targeting). Does z-targeting in that game turn the camera even if there isn’t actually anything to target?

How is this different from camera resetting in games since, probably even the N64? (The thing that happens when you press the camera stick)

@@z.m.6053 yes, in fact it's your only form of camera control in that game.

You mean slowly turning the camera with the right stick doesn’t make you feel in control?

B E N D

Honestly, I don't get why Wii has such a negative stigma. It's biggest flaw is that sunlight could mess with your controller input, because of it using infrared for your pointer on screen, but bluetooth for the rest of the gyro. The gyro itself works just fine, a lot of developers were pretty bad at using it, but I played Call of Duty Modern Warfare 3 recently with it (and tried without), and Wiimote is the equivalent to gyro aiming that the Wii has, and it worked really well when my blinds were down.

Nintendo actually was able to see through the stigma and used gyro controls for splatoon! And man, the community _loves it_

@@gamecavalier3230 That's true but I blame the developers, not the Wii for that.

Also not to mention a certain game that's quite famous for allowing a certain handheld console to be hacked to allow the user to run unauthorized custom software.

@@commscan314 Cubic Ninja?

The light come with his sword, shield, and his infamous scream

Yay

@@DA28007 there can be ONLY one.

An 8 month eclipse. That’s about how long I haven’t seen the sun in.

Funny enough the solar eclipse was this year

Hey dude, look up Asus ROG Chakram. It's a mouse with a built in stick like on a controller. I don't know how it'd work exactly but you could walk with the stick and aim with the mouse, from just one hand. Depending on how capable your other hand is, you could use it for basic stuff like jumping, switching weapons, calling for medic,... Anyway, I'm sure that with how the technology is going, you can figure something out. Hell you can even get foot pedals for certain binds. Good luck dude.

@@emrebaskocak thanks man, I'll certainly look into it, and the idea of foot petals do sound like a good idea, though I might have to pad my room just to make sure I'm not making a crazy amount of sound🤣😂

bruh how do you jerk it

Dang, that sounds Bad, hope You are doing well and found the way to play with your Friends again

@@user-cm9kx9nf8p ÑñÑñÑ que haces aqui

microsoft just wants cheap controllers. ..and whatever that elite controller bulls*** is, like come on that isn't going to give you an advantage in a shooter.

Fortnite actually has flick stick naively, so you can try mastering it there.

if Microsoft would give it any thought they could've made gyro aim a default feature for over a decade. They own both Xbox and WIndows, so if they would've added the feature as part of the XInput standard, we would've had gyro aim in both platforms since at least 2005. That still doesn't mean that games have to support it, but at least it would be part of the hardware and thus an option.

You can just switch mouse/keyboard hands. Or turn your screen upside down. Or drastically change your settings. Don't need more hardware for that

Shame sometimes developers just make the gyro input a glorified stick (with shit like acceleration and dead zones), killing the entire purpose of gyro. For it to perform better, you always need to set it to raw mouse input

Splatoon has really opened peoples eyes to gyro aiming

Yeah But How About S : PS3 And XBOX360 Team Fortress 2 ? They Still Alives Presents Todays ! +1

I wish splatoon's was more tunable

It's an odd place to have learned about gyro aim, but I tried PUBG Mobile when it was still new and it had a gyro aim feature that introduced me to it and it felt so smooth (even though it was just a mobile game lol)

DEWILL DA WAY

Alright

he just wants a hug

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100+ degree fov moment cry about it

Can’t go back to 3 after this

As I gyro user, I will counter by saying gyro aiming is very bad. it is more addictive that meth and will result in people all around you in shooter games dying very quickly.

Splatoon gyro is not nearly as good as this. It allows for the basics but you’re still at the whims of “stick pushing” the camera horizontally.

@@hb-robo It can still be really fast

Easy to use, hard to master.

i reckon itll be a preferential choice between that and the flick stick stuff

The flick stick is far better, I can tell you that much. You can't beat that level of fine control and the ability to instantly turn to any direction you want with traditional analog movement.

There is no contest high sens and flickStick FS is better in about every way

@@Thornskade You can instantly turn to any direction you want without flick stick. Flick stick is a preference, it is not superior to normal motion aim. You can turn around in one frame with properly calibrated motion sensitivity.

@@tiggerbiggo lolno

that's why your mind needs to be opened like this,controller aim is not just about aim assist,it can be far more skill based while also being more viable if devs just gave controllers a chance.

May sound stupid, especially since I’m a complete casual, but if any scene has a dedicated competitive player-base, writing them completely off is kinda spitting in the face of any effort that gets put in,, especially if the reason is due to the input method that gets used.

@@-cactus.raven- problem with console games designed for controllers is that they rely heavily on VERY generous aim assist. As soon as you give people a game that doesn't have ANY assist they deem it unplayable (MAG on PS3 was great example of that, it was one of better multiplayer FPS on that generation of consoles and it died because people just couldn't stomach the raw inputs showing them how much they actually suck). This is why Halo multiplayer was such acclaimed console success and barely anybody gave the shit about the franchise on PC because while for us it was a dumbed down, slower take on Unreal Tournament, console players for the first time were able to play FPS game and not utterly suck at it. In competitive setting you can't really accept these kind of assists and unfortunately, they're not optional but an integrated part of the experience. Hence why each and every console Call of Duty tournament was a pure meme, entirely ignoring here how bad of a competitive experience CoD as a game is.

@@Micromation You reminded me of my thoughts on Quake and arena shooters in general. Always thought the reason the genre died was because of consoles, aim assist doesn't do a whole lot of those games and making predictive shots. Also the movement required on older console controllers was just not possible. Hence the scripting of movement which most fps games have now. With this they seem playable, honestly gives me hope. That being said this controller setup seems very difficult for the majority of people to use and would require such a learning curve it won't catch on.

@@user-ee6ng4bb9l it's a new control scheme and people have no muscle memory associated. If you don't put any effort into it, you will never become proficient. If you've never played with mouse, your first time (and probably several dozen hours later) would suck too until you got accustomed and built some muscle memory.

Is that true? I’ve always just used sticks on a singular controller to aim, but I might have to try that, sounds fun!

Split controllers need to become more of a thing. It's sad outside of VR that Joycons are the only ones.

@@CorrosiveCitrus It's nice not being handcuffed while you play. I wish the joycons were bigger though.

That's how I've been playing Doom Eternal on Switch.

@@ThomasDailey What about this idea: Have a left joycon-like design and a mouse (and some how sync them up). This will give the benefits of a controller (precise stick movement compared to WASD), while you get the benefits of the mouse (camera control in basically all games are enhanced) The only issue I can see is the lack of buttons. But I think this could be worked through by adding more mouse/controller buttons whether that's on the side of the mouse or on the back of the joycon. Ergonomics might be uncomfortable, but not sure until it's tested tbh. plus the controller would be designed better than a joycon which is constrained to the switch's shape.

can i get an unban c:

@@Pikachara what the fuck are you talking about

Fatherless pfp

degenerate

Wohoolad R34

mimic the speed of classes manually?

That would be a nice little buff for spy

Problem is that would force everyone who takes spy seriously to buy a controller to have disguises that actually fool players. That, or script awkward key inputs at preset speeds for movement.

the shift key does exist

Fun fact: a spy on a controller with the cloak and dagger, crouching and moving as slow as possible will not drain any cloak

For a shooter game, i mean, it's good to know they made a way to aim better

Was just about to post something about Splatoon but people beat me to it lol. I use the Classic because it reminds me of how chargers in Splatoon play; I just miss the leniency that flick shots have in Splatoon

@@CBaller The Sydney and Classic are currently fighting each other for the title of "favorite Rifle" because they both remind me of Splatoon's Chargers.

Yeah But How About S : PS3 And XBOX360 Team Fortress 2 ? They Still Alives Presents Todays ! +1

Hello fellow splatoon enjoyers

🤦‍♂🤦‍♀🤦🤦🏽‍♀🤦🏽‍♂🤦🏽🤦🏻‍♀🤦🏻‍♂🤦🏿‍♀🤦🏿‍♂🤦🏻

@@frog382he’s right.

@@poker8086 Looking forward seeing professional counterstrike players using controllers. Aim is very important in cs, i hope they learn this secret... 🤨

@@frog382 nobody is arguing its as good as mouse for high level professional cs lmfao. but for the vast majority of players its absolutely viable once you learn it

@@1venusflytrap You should not compare it to the mouse, since its inevitable people will organise busting of that myth. If you approach it as a upgrade to the existing controller instead, you will not receive the shit. The reality is it is closer to the controller than to a mouse, so just call it for what it is. I actually believe mouse will become obsolete at some point, but its hard to imagine how.

Absolutely!! Going from gyro to stick in a game that doesn't support gyro feels almost unplayable

long as they make it better than OW2's. tried playing that on switch and it feels hellish. then again, I didn't try to tweak settings if there were any.

Thank god the steam deck lets you just enable gyro externally for every game

I loved using gyro for warface

Splatoon walked so other shooters could run

the only problem is that people find it hard to convert from one method to the other. Most players aren't willing to dedicate the time to learning it

absolutely

@@parknplay8328 I did since I play games on my TV sometimes, and I started playing fps games with gyro once I got ahold of a Steam Controller. I'm not using gyro aim for the heck of it as I maintain that a mouse is still better. My aim on gyro controller has small imprecisions due to the slight jitter of your hands. This jitter is alleviated with a mouse since it rests on a desk, giving it stability, kinda like a gun stock. In that sense, gyro controller aim is a bit like aiming a gun without a gun stock. It's similar to aiming with a stock, but there is definitely less stability to your aim.

The issue here is that while Wii and PS3 had some sort of Gyro option Xbox, which a big part of online console shooters are played on never had any sort of Gyro option.

@@diegomedina9637 I think the problem the OP alluded to, is that no developer even conceived the gyro could be used for aiming. I'm not even sure what the first gyro-aim game was or when it came out.

@@Creshex8 literally no one uwed gyro on ps3 ever. lbp used it to tilt your character around but that was the most useful feature attached to the sixaxis (which isnt even a full 3d sensor as it has just pitch and yaw so no roll), AND IT WAS MAKING FUNNY COTTON MAN TURN HIS HEAD AROUND. some usermade levels in lbp2 also used it but ehhhhhhhhhhhh

@@kellymountain Besides LBP only games I recall using PS3's gyro were Uncharted games & Mirror's Edge when balancing on thin objects. Such an underutilized mechanic. EDIT: I mean games that I own. There's probably more games that use the gyro but I haven't played them.

​@@WEndro333 you could drive in gta 4 via sixaxis 😂

Yeah But How About S : PS3 And XBOX360 Team Fortress 2 ? They Still Alives Presents Todays ! +1

Having played modern warfare reflex on Wii back in the day, it was a weird nostalgia trip.

I can't even imagine how a spectator feels seeing THIS

It's pretty much nintendo's fault

@@Sir_GrimReaper How? Their implementation in Splatoon and BotW is better than majority of companies have done.

@@ScoutOW2 i'm talking about the wii

yeah, some of the first motion controls were bad at best, utter crap at worst at that left a bad impression

I'm just a stubborn prick so I will never attempt to learn how to use it and will never, ever want to.

Amen

comp splatoon lol

@@yamo511 shhhhh. we like to keep it a secret

@@yamo511It’s a very real thing and you’d likely be shit at it if you don’t use gyro

​@@yamo511 Splatoon is extremely mechanically intensive I don't know why you guys always react like this lol

hey man hope this worked out well for you, its been ~9 months

@@pemo2676 hey man hope this worked out well for you, its been ~1 year

Facts. Controller players need to stop using legacy controls

​@CommandoBlack123 I've begun practicing playing fps games with motion controls with the sensitivity for motion turned way up. It is so precise that I don't need aim assist. Haven't tried flick stick yet.

Splatoon is honestly the reason I even consider motion control good in fps games

"the recognition it deserves" That could mean anything!

@@Pickelrye i did mean something

oh shit@@corneliuscornwallis I did NOT expect you to reply to that. Yea I'm glad that gyro's getting into more places as an option, but there's still the reputation of Wii-waggle-itis. I kinda figured that with a year-old comment I could swoop on by and mention that the recognition is multi-sided, but I guess this is what I get for being shocked in a reply section: lengthy reasons with beeg text.

Nerrel

Yeah But How About S : PS3 And XBOX360 Team Fortress 2 ? They Still Alives Presents Todays ! +1

And because of that it can get you votekicked for "cheating"

@@MaximG. I mean it definitely FEELS like cheating to me. If a keyboard player rebound their arrow keys to face them in fixed directions people would call that cheating

@@notcarbuncle1493 no

@@notcarbuncle1493 If you can set those settings in game, then it's not cheating, pretty simple. My mouse supports buttons that emulate it spinning in 90 degrees for certain games, that's not cheating either considering it's simply build in by the company, it's just how some devices work.

the switch controller config was made for the steam controller,which has paddles for stuff like jumping

Yeah But How About S : PS3 And XBOX360 Team Fortress 2 ? They Still Alives Presents Todays ! +1

@@C.A._Old They can't use gyro on the 360 and PS3, they have to live with what they got or switch to PC.

@@Thornskade Oh Yeah ? Thing About ! People Still Alives İn PS3 And XBOX360 ! +1

@@C.A._Old Are you suffering from a perpetual stroke or something?

Splatoon really pioneered gyro aiming in competitive shooting games.

The epic man himself. Thanks for bringing Flick Stick to the community!

I've been wondering what it would be like for dual controllers (like the Hydra or dual joycons) to have one gyro set to normal gyro aim and the second set to free cursor, so you can use both gyros at the same time.

How shish its the flick stick guy

the only issue is binding the keys right. What you get is analog movement input. That's it. So instead of a modifier for sprinting and one for walking slowly, you cou have the whole range of speeds available. But then many games don't use the analog input that way and just have a couple different speed steps. Plus you are basically limited to movement + 2 buttons at a time, which isn't more than on mkb. A mouse has less buttons than half a controller and half a controller has less buttons than a keyboard. You'll end up with something like jumping on L1 and reload on L2, the dpad for weapon switch. And camera movement, ads, and shoot on the mouse. And you're out of keys. Unless you have hardware with extra buttons, like controller back paddles or 5+ key mice.

@@HappyBeezerStudios Yea, there are limits but in the few games where it works properly for me it's quite fun... then you get stuff like NewHalo forcing you to swap between them. Also, holy necropost, batman!

@@blunderingfool 2 months is nothing considering the video is a year old ;)

@@HappyBeezerStudios Touché. XD

i saw flick stick when it was first created and seeing it get as far as it has over the last 2 years has been so awesome, even some console games have official support for it!

Seeing that this is the first time I’ve heard people really praising gyro controls or them being talked about at all in recent memory and that most can get on perfectly fine without them it seems obvious why Microsoft doesn’t invest in them. It’s not really required, they already have tons of people on PC using them and they’re in a good position. Maybe next series x version release they might consider implementing them.

You might be right about were the stigma comes from, but honestly, you'd think that most of the people who feel this way have only ever watched a 2009 xbox kinect commercial and are under the impression that waggling your arms about like a noodly cartoon character is, or even ever was, the state of the art. While the Wii often failed to provide a compelling use for its unique controller, I would argue that it succeeded more often than not, at least within the 1st-party library of games. A lot of games on the Wii play... really really well, especially first person shooters. IR pointer aiming is, in my opinion, better than gyro aiming, and possibly even better than mouse aiming. it never looses calibration and gives you a very wide range of movement which maps 1:1 on to your character's movements. Metroid prime 3, one of the first big examples of this type of aiming, came out in august 2007, less than a year after the Wii was released. Other notable early examples of IR pointer aim include resident evil 4 "wii edition" (2007) and sin and punishment 2 (2009). Sega's "The Conduit" (2009) also has great aiming, although I must add the caveat that it is a bad game, and you should definitely play the superior "the Conduit 2" (2011) instead. Regardless, all of these games are well over a decade old at this point. In fact, metroid prime 3 and resident evil 4 "wii edition" are both older than TF2 itself. I get the feeling that if many gamers had actually bothered to play any of these games, they might not have such a negative impression of motion controls as a whole. But they didn't. They never played the games at all. They saw the Wii sports commercials, saw people standing up, and decided that they were right out of there. Or, even worse, they did give the games a chance, but happened to play zelda or mario-- both of which use controller waggling for no good reason, where a button press would have been better-- and abandoned motion controls right then and there. It's tragic, because some of the best motion experiences are, in fact, first person shooters. the IR aiming of the Wii was great, and current-gen gyro aim, while less precise and impressive than the IR pointer, is far better than dual analogue. The Wii is a sword that cut both ways. it offered the best pointing/aiming experience that has ever been available on consoles, and in that has not been equalled or surpassed** by any subsequent mass-market machine. But people also deride it for retarding the acceptance of motion controls by the wider gaming community. I must disagree. The Wii was a machine, nothing more, nothing less. the experiences it provided varied greatly, just like any other games console-- but, in a more pronounced way, because of the new axis of input available for developers. Some devs used them to create novel experiences that were meaningful improvements on older control schemes. Others didn't. Either way, claiming that the Wii is responsible for how people view motion controls gives too much credit to Nintendo's marketing department, and doesn't put enough impetus on gamers themselves, who by-and-large appear to have eschewed thinking critically about the issue and forming their own, nuanced opinions-- instead opting in to a ready-made take, served to them piping hot from the presses of gaming news media outlets everywhere.

@@DallinBackstrom NGL, not mentioning Red Steel 2 is almost a crime. It's the best Wii shooter imo. It nails the FPS mechanics while also oozing with style.

Programmable macro keys aren't really a new thing.

Ive always put down gyro controllers because my hands dont really stay still so my aim would just shake everywhere compared to a stick where its just. Yeah

@@Genjink you might be able to fix that issue with steam input, i believe there's a setting where you can set a minimum movement threshold so that your shaking won't actually move the crosshair. if you have to put it too high then it may mess with aiming but it'd be worth messing around with if you're interested

It hurt brain I dont like

@@Genjink Just put your arms on legs , that's the main position for gyro aiming

honestly it's disappointing how Sony put work to add gyro to their controllers only for it to barely be used, atleast not for aiming. maybe there's been progress with ps5 games, but idk I don't own one. if only we could all get the bad stigma surrounding gyro from the console community (not Nintendo) to go away..