Why couldn't the SEPARATISTS legally leave the REPUBLIC? | Star Wars Lore 

The clone wars was more of a galactic civil war than the actual galactic civil war.

I think the Separatist worlds were able to legally leave the Republic; however, the process to do so would have taken an unreasonably long time. It's been mentioned many times that the Republic by the time of the Prequel trilogy was in an almost gridlock state when it came to getting things done concerning the Senate and even worse when it came to the courts. The Separatist worlds would likely have been able to legally succeed from the Republic, but such a process would have likely taken many years, if not decades for them to be 100% free. And of course most Separatist worlds wanted to leave almost immediately and didn't care about the formal process which would have taken far too long in their eyes, which is why they just straight up left in a manner that was illegitimate legally in the Republic's perspective.

There’s an easier answer: they were legally allowed to leave ONLY if the Chancellor wasn’t there within 15 minutes

So Star Wars prequels were basically about space Brexit

It was a complicated issue, neither side was wholly good. As for the Jedi, they really shouldn't have involved themselves beyond rooting out Sith

Canadian Government compared to the Republic Senate... Did not see that coming.

I really like videos like these where you delve into the background stuff, it just helps show how extensive and in depth the Star Wars universe actually is and it’s so pleasing that there’s people out there who are willjng to delve into all of this just so other people can learn. All in all, thank you so much for another great video, I love watching them

First video I’ve watched from you for the new year.

So refreshing to have a Star Wars RU-vidr who isn't uploading negative video after negative video about Star Wars (and its current state in their minds), but rather putting out quality content discussing Star Wars

"Openly attacked the jedi and a senator" kenobi,anakin and padme did try to break into a CIS military instalation.

Nothing better than start a new year with an eck's new video

*Is that legal my lord?*

We already discussed this a little in the comments, so I feel like I am at least partly responsible for bringing up this issue. I think the points presented by you are, although pretty reasonable, not sufficient to justify why the Separatists weren't allowed to leave legally. A rambly rant addressing your points is incoming. First: Sunk ressources. Second: Bureaucratic difficulties. Third: CIS as potential threat. (Fourth): Republic as institution. (Fifth): Economic impact. All of these arguments would undoubtedly have been made and are not inherently wrong. But I grouped all of them together because they ultimately are questions of convenience. Convenience on a galactic scale, I admit. But even that is no compelling justification for war. Revoking the people's right to choose independence at least in my mind cannot be justified with logistical problems. I'd even go so far and say that all of these issues could be managable. Of course, negotiating a deal disentangling the CIS from the Republic politically and economically would not be an easy task, but in the real world Brexit has become a quite similiar situation. (Brexit is insane, but a war between the EU and Britain would be even more so.) (Sixth): CIS controlled by corporations. Starting here, the arguments address matters of legitimacy, which serves as the basis for legality (or at least it should). The CIS had the Separatist Council and an independent Parliament. This Parliament at least on paper had the legislative power within the confederacy, whereas the Separatist Council was the executive branch of government. Effectively the Council (together with Sheev and Dooku) undermined a lot of crucial decisions made by the Parliament, like sabotaging the very real efforts for peace by staging an attack on Coruscant. Nonetheless, the representatives in the Parliament were legitimately voted into office by their people, just like Republic senators. Like you mentioned, the Republic was plagued by a lot of the same problems. But that just means that these two forms of government are very similiar in their legitimacy. Furthermore the Republic did not wage war to free the Separatists from the oppression by the Council but to revoke their independence as a whole. (Seventh): Republic spreading society. The Republic "spreading society" by force (and certainly not to secure their tax income from trade routes) sound a lot like the USA "spreading democracy" by force (and certainly not to secure those sweet barrels of oil). You cannot force people to accept a system they specifically seceded from because in their opinion (and in the Republic's case arguably objectively) it has become too immoral. (Eightth): The anti unilateral secession provision I think the Galactic Republic is more akin to the EU than to Canada because the members of the Republic are not just states but whole systems. So it makes sense they would be more independent and keeping large parts of their souvereignty, instead of submitting to a more centalized government. This exact issue is brought up multiple times in cannon, for example when the Pantorans declared their conflict with the Talz as internal and thereby excluded the senate and Jedi from intervening. As I already brought up: Brexit is happening and it is legal (and still stupid). It was decided democratically. The democratically elected representatives in the Separatist Parliament clearly are in favor of secession as well. So denying them this possibility is arguably illegitimate and probably not legally justifiable (although that can be debated since we do not have the Republic's constitution). (Ninth): CIS leaving by force. Now this is I think your strongest argument. The Republic does not need a justification for war, if the CIS started it. Building up an army alone is threatening but preemptive strikes cannot possibly be just. The Republic could justifiably have entered a Cold War with the CIS but not outright attack because it "felt threatened". This point can also be reversed and the argument could be made that the CIS had any reason to "feel threatened", which lead them to building up their Droid Army. Since we do not know what legal actions for secession were taken by the CIS before the war escalated, we could just as easily assume that they only wanted the option to use force as a last resort. And since it can arguably be said that the Republic had no materialistic interest (see points one to five) for letting them leave the CIS was somewhat justified in this fear. (We all know that secretely Sheev was behind the Clones and the Droids and war was inevitable but the galaxy didn't.) In the end though, the CIS was guilty of the first act of aggression, by trying to execute two Jedi and a senator on Geonosis. However the Jedi and Senator had no legal right to be on Geonosis. The CIS could legally view them as foreign agents invading on their souvereignty and judge them by (arguably ridiculous) Geonosian law. Still the Republic rescue attempt escalated into the First Battle of Geonosis, which escalated into galactic war (just as Sheev had planned). But the question remains: Was the Republic justified with not letting the CIS leave legally? It is hard to tell, since both sides were controlled by an evil Sith Lord ,but I still think the answer is no.

Ayyeee 5 minutes old and I voted for this

I always wondered about this. My assumption was that palpatine and Dooku orchestrated war crimes whenever a diplomacy started back up.

What if Thrawn led the CIS Forces?

I personally like the discussion about the different policies they had. It makes the SW universe a bit easier to understand and enjoy more.

If the republic doesn't show up in 15 minutes we are legally allowed to leave

Covenant CAS Assault Carrier vs First Order Resurgent Class Star Destroyer (21st try, like so eck can see)

Separatists couldn't leave, most of them didn't even had seat in Galactic Senate.

I just wanna thank you for that thumbnail

Galactic Republic: come get in, but once inside don't ever think to leave

Hey dude just wanted to say you weren't rambley at all. You were very on point and everything you said was relative to the topic. Love these types of videos

Dude I know this has nothing to do with the main video but thanks for mentioning Canada we never get talked about it just feels good to hear it

thank you for explaining the genesis of the Clarity Act 2:45-3:15

Replicators vs a Unified Star Wars universe (416th try now, *_I._** WILL NEEEEVER EEEVER GIVE UP!!!)*

Sooo... both sides we like "I'm bored, let's fight!".

Republic: We are a fair and just system of Government and care about all of our members CIS: We're leaving because you don't care about us Republic: Am I a joke to you?

Short answer: Palpatine. Long answer: The republic takes too long to do anything.

Doomsday from the comics vs the Flood

I love your outro so much

I think the begins of the Clone War is pretty much the Star Wars verison of Bexit gone horribly wrong!

The Republic reaction to the Separatist is a lot like the EU reaction to Brexit... Even the talk about the need for a EU army shortly after the apparition of a separatist treat feel hella similar. Are we sure Germany isn't producing a clone army as we speak?

I remember that Corellia had a right to secede, which they exercised at the beginning of the Clone War and withdrew from the Republic.

Please do more Faction versus videos. Please do the Forerunners vs The Imperium of Man. (Halo vs Warhammer 40k)

If you have to have trade routes in your fantasy franchise, do it like Perseus the Invincible where they're blocked off by Medusa and a dragon.

MASS EFFECT! Modern day Earth vs 1 Sovereign class (Mass Effect) Reaper

Should do a video on the top 5 Ships to go down like the resolute in the battle of sullust

It’s because neither of the two factions were the senate.

This was great.. Some of these topics should be explored and thoroughly explained.. Great job

Seperatists: if the chancellor is not here in 15 minutes we're legally allowed to leave

COULD CYBERTRON SURVIVE AN ALL OUT REAPER INVASION ?. Respect dude.

You should do a video and which sci fi / game government was the best at doing its job

Hey thanks for the Québec reference. :D The secession of Québec is a very interesting piece of history. But, unlike Star Wars, there was only one province who wanted to leave, as opposed to a large number.

#ASKECK - can you do more videos about law & policy in the Star Wars universe? Whether canon, the EU, or otherwise. Empire, New Republic, Old Republic, First Order, etc. This is super fascinating.

I wish you a happy new year Eck :)

I didn't think that you would talk about Quebec in this hahahaha

Happy new year and may the force be with us through 2019

I think absent Palpatine there would be easily found way to do things legally even if messy. Though it is not sure if the separatist movement not led by charismatic Dooku would gain traction in the first place... Palpatine basically constructed the opposing forces, on one side ordering the clone army and naval forces to transport them and support with space superiority and orbital strikes, on the other formenting secesssionist movement by proxy of his apprentice, Dooku. So, instead of Brexit we got into something akin to WW1 on galactic scalew, a tragic, devastating and yet avoidable conflict.

It's kinda like the EU. Almost anyone can join, but no one is allowed to leave. ( even though they are legally allowed to.) Because even if leaving would be beneficial to the constituents trying to leave, a country (or planet) leaving would be hugely detrimental for larger political organization, and since the larger political organizations law trumps the smaller governments law, the larger political organization will do everything in it's power to prevent a smaller faction from breaking off.

My boy Shiiv was just too clever.😎

Because they didn't wait 15 minutes I'll see myself out...

Interesting topic to hear more about.

Other factor in this was the Sith Grand Plan. All the factors discussed where engineered by the Sith line

This is an open question, but what Star Wars era would be able to put up the best fight against the Emperium of Man from 40k? (This is including legends and new cannon eras)

Glad they did because the clone wars is cool as fuck and so is this channel

I love these sorts of discussions. So often in science fiction, it just seems like they say "there was a great war because (insert vague random reason here)". They do the same thing with the phrase "rising tensions". That's not to say they need to come up with a very comprehensive reason with huge levels of detail, but I never really did like it when writers just insert a vague reason. It always feels artificial, when reality usually doesn't follow that path.

Best ending of the new year

Republic: Oh you dont have to join, only if you want! CIS: cool see you later Republic: hey wanna see this new army i just got

Super cool!!! I love politics in Star Wars that I didn't pick up on originally. These are some of the best videos you can do imo lol

Stuff like this is why the original Expanded Universe mattered.... In the movies, it is never explained fully why the Republic didn't just have a standing army. The Ruusan Reformation (along with the events leading up to it) explain it entirely, but now that Disney swept that under the rug we are back to that question of why the Republic didn't just have a standing army, and I doubt Disney will bother explaining why since they only care about there sequels and milking the nostalgia of fans. Legends > Discanon

I think a strong motivator for the CIS seceding violently was the fact that Republic worlds only maintained a standing army of about 0.1% of total population. In the real world, most countries maintain armies of 10% of the population and have historically mobilized over 20% of the population. Earth _today_ fields an equal number of soldiers as Coruscant. It's easy to imagne the CIS promising "limitless armies" to member worlds.

I would like to know about the politics behind the republic's transformation into the empire. I never really thought about it, so if there's some video you've done please point me to it. Or if you haven't talked about it yet, I'd like to see your thoughts on it.

The Republic is like the US in the cold war era. US: We want allies and good relationships all over the world. *A country in Asia* : We want to have a good relationship with Russia because they are not that far away from us and we accept communism. US: *triggered*

0:31 If you are fast enough you can spot me

Hey Eck, would you consider doing versus with the Starship Troopers series? You have great content, keep it up 👍

The closest example i can think of is correllia wanting to leave the new republic in legends. In this example the member states get certain benefits, although these are not explained in detail, where the issue arose is that correllia wants to keep all the advantages of being a member but not have to pay taxes or be under republic law. Of course this cannot happen and creates a war around the centerpoint station.

What happened to Separatist worlds after the Clone Wars? Were they put under occupation by the Empire and subjected to harsh treatment?

Well the Clone Wars were inspired in part by the American Civil War. Leaving the issue of slavery aside (which in the Clone Wars' case was arguably more applicable to the Republic with its Clone Army), the American Civil War was between the Unionists who fought for territorial integrity and the Confederates who fought for states' rights. The Galactic Republic likewise fought the Confederacy of Independent Systems to protect its territorial integrity.

Methew is still easy confused

Give me a movie or tv series on the Old Republic. Groups of Sith and Jedi fighting ect would be awesome imo. So much lore there if they follow the games and such. The politics and possible subplots would make for good drama too even if they make it an animated show.

So basically Space Brexit?

Interesting to hear about Quebec. One little note. Quebec didn’t willingly join the Canadian federation, it was conquered by the British empire. And it never could sign the Canadian constitution. But the rest is a very long story.🙂 Thx for the greats videos! Happy new year!

On one hand, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense that hundreds of space-faring civilizations with little in common would band together in one government like the Republic. On the other, perhaps it is because they have nothing in common with each other that they were able to all band together. Once you form one alliance with a completely alien culture, what's to stop you from allying with them all, for the sake of prosperity?

Here I am, at 3am watching a star wars lore video...

From what I have heard from you, from what I think and also from what I have read from people like The Lore Master... I have a point of view very similar to the one from The Lore Master: 1. Like the Lore Guy said, is possible that the Galactic Constitution allowed planets to secede from the GR, after all, as you said, this is a Republic, not an Empire. But, the problems comes in what time concerns, the legal and formal process could have taken a lot of time to even be initiated, this could be explained by corruption, the Republic had endured not only by years, not only for decades or even centuries, but ALSO FROM MILLENIUMS, and it would not be crazy to think that, as you said against, if corporations obtained more power and influence after the Ruusan Reformation, the politics too in some way. As we knoe up to this date, in both Canon and Legends the main reason (leaving Sidious apart from the ecuation) to start the Clone Wars (22 BBY - 19 BBY) was to obligate the Republic to ''pay'' attention to the interest and demands of the CIS worlds, who have been apparently ignored in the Galactic Senate, so in that case you have 2 ways to try to solve your situation: 1. Try to seek a peaceful one like seceding from the government legally. That could leave to 2 outcomes in my opinion: 1. The seceded worlds would take their own paths and would create different and independent factions (at the start, at least). 2. The seceded worlds would try to create in conjunction their own government which will cover the neccesities of those members. But, here is the other way, and is the way that the CIS (again, taking Sidious away from the ecuation) opted in the timeline of both Canon and Legends: 2. Go into a more violent way like warning the RG with an possible war, if the Clone Army weren't in the ecuation, the CIS would have taken total control of the GR if they weren't disposed to accept their political, economical, military and social agreements, remember that after the Ruusan Reformation, the RG is almost completely descentralized in what military terms concerns and if a world had an army or military forces or not was in charge of themselves, not from the Republic, most worlds just had mere security forces and not actually military forces, although some like Naboo had security forces that look similar to a military low scale. So, my conclusion is that the CIS, persuaded by Count Dooku , ''socially'' would have opted for engaging the RG in war, because it was the ''fast way'' to fulfill their demands. But, ''economically'', is possible that the megacorporations that supported the CIS wanted the second option to be selected because they benefit directly from war, some like the Trade Federation or the Techno Union have the creation and manufacturing of battle droids as one of their main aspects in their economies and others would have benefit directly by just selling conventional military equipment like weapons, vehicles and etc. Is possible too that the Republic had excessive and injust taxes (or any type of economical payment) with those worlds because the people who mainly controlled it were corrupted and just wanted to benefit from the concept of the GR, so I think that a peaceful and more political oriented solution could have been possible, but seeing the Republic's behavior in those times, it could take a long, very long time to even just being started, so the worlds considered that they didn't have time in their shoulders as an ally and decided that war was the only way to be listened.

I liked for the Canadian comparison :D

"The republic also spread civilization" Cough*Cough*Imperialism*Cough*Cough

I know the stark-hyperspace war and the early conflicts other than Naboo are no longer cannon but have you ever thought as a what if scenario about a militarist faction successfully creating a republic military force prior to the clone wars. Even with conservative ship numbers, weapon choices, and numbers a mobile force would have been well than enough to cripple secessionist movements. Just an idea, as I know of the Antarian rangers and other pseudo military factions from legends that would have made perfect republic military forces without Jedi.

Those visuals you used when talking about Canada, what're they from

Loved this.

Your intro song Sounds like Home for my by now

Since you mentioned Canada and Quebec, here's the US CONSTITUTION, ARTICLE IV, SECTION 3 New States may be admitted by the Congress into this Union; but no new State shall be formed or erected within the Jurisdiction of any other State; nor any State be formed by the Junction of two or more States, or Parts of States, without the Consent of the Legislatures of the States concerned as well as of the Congress. Basically, West Virginia got to become a state because the Congress of the federalized US government allowed them to exist. Otherwise, no state. If you cecede, then there was the Civil War to enforce the law. So yeah, the Republic would have needed to recognize the CIS under US constitutional law

Yo eck update your fookin music playlist

CIS was powder keg just waiting to be ignited.

I like to compare the CIS to the Confederate States of America of American Civil War infamy. Were they allowed to leave? Most certainly (don't @ me, secession is not covered in the U.S. Constitution, meaning that the Tenth Amendment would grant that prerogative to the states). The question is why they were leaving. Like the CSA, the CIS had very real concerns about the state of the Republic, but they only broke away at the urging of certain megacorporate interests who controlled the war effort as a government within a government. The CIS Senate held the _de jure_ power, but the army and industry had true control over how the war was conducted and even held sway on matters of national policy-exactly the situation the CIS was formed to escape. Tl;dr: The CIS had valid reasons to leave, but compromised them from moment one.

There could also easily have been a debt clause to prevent abuse of the system by joining and leaving with arbitrary timing for profit. Maybe the Trade Federation stopped paying taxes, or refused to acknowledge a tax or tariff imposed by the senate, years before trying to declare themselves independent.

The republic had no jurisdiction on Geonosis because it wasn't part of the republic. Therefore the Geonosians were well within their rights to execute Obi Wan, Padme and Anakin.

If the chancellor doesn’t arrive in 15 minutes the Separatists are legally allowed to leave, but the chancellor arrived on time, so they couldn’t leave.

Can you do a video on Mass Driver/"Slugthrower" weapons in Star Wars?

have a good 2019 Eck

Man the Canadian constitution looks so awesome, just look at that footage

Comparing the CIS to Quebec Separatists... that’s a great example lol.

You wanna here a joke... A non-corrupt galactic government in Star Wars

I think it was the threat that their ideologies posed. First, like he said, the planets in the Republic could only do things that didn't conflict with Republic law. The Separatists seemed fine with violating basic sapients rights and allowing corporate domination, etc. They went too far. Second, I think the idea of SO MUCH power and autonomy being given to artificial intelligences (droid armies and droid commanders) really unnerved the Republic. As evidence, just see how C3PO reacted to machines building other machines. He said "how perverse." A Republic-built Droid didn't seem to like the idea of Von Neumann machines too much. Totally different worldviews.

What was the plan for the clone armies after the war though? I know many remained part of the Imperial Army but if it had all been on the level, no deception, what did the public think the Republic was going to do with the clones after they had won the war? Would they be free to retire, would the Republic just dispose of them all?

Tattooine was a part of the Hutt Cartel. Reason slavery was still practiced there.

Have you ever heard the tragedy of Darth plaegus the wise.

Let's not forget the economic background of this where the core worlds are pursuing a mercantilist trading policy towards the outer rim Where they levied taxes on the previously free hyperspace lanes and exploiting the resources of the outer rim. The economic damage alone would have been about as damaging as the American revolution was for Great Britain.

The Separatist: Why can't we leave? We have sent senators to negotiate a peaceful resolution. Palpatine: Because, I am the Senate!!!