I have read that the Balrogs only took orders from Melkor/Morgoth in person, and that a Balrog probably being a former maia of Aulë, would see itself as Saurons equal, since Sauron also was a former maia of Aulë. Also the Balrog must know that Glorfindel who slew Gothmog lord of the balrogs still lived in Rivendell.The Balrog of Moria/Durins bane knew he was powerful, but he also knew that he could be killed.
I believe Balrogs did not originate as being maiars belonging to any of the Valar of valinor, rather they originated as Maiar who existed outside of the "world" during the music of creation, who like the Valar partook in the music. When Melkor sowed his own discord in Eru's music, those Maiar joined with Melkor. Meaning, they were Melkor's very own Maiar. Balrogs did not fear any elf, they would throw themselves at the spider of the void herself, a being greater than even Melkor himself. if you think they would shy away from some elf you're severely underestimating them. As an added note, being Melkors own personal maiar, they had no allegiances to any being other than Melkor himself. Durins bane were awaiting his masters return, it was only stirred into action because a powerful foe had invaded its resting place. Sauron did not have the authority to command the Balrogs if Melkor were not around. They would not be disposed to follow Saurons plans if those plans did not originate with their master. Durins bane would not bother to interfere with Sauron either way, it would be content to remain hidden at the roots of the world until the end times, it was not a rival, ally, subject or adversery to Sauron, but a neutral party.
Actually, that's a common misconception. The Balrog is indeed a formidable foe, but it's not a Maia. It's a type of ancient spirit known as a Maiar. Sauron, on the other hand, is a Maia. And while the Balrog is powerful, it's generally considered that Sauron, especially with the One Ring, holds a higher level of power and influence in Middle-earth.
When I first read the part, I loved that the evil world is also multifaceted and dynamic. I felt that added so much depth and reality to the world Tolkien created.
I am struck by the fact that the Watcher in the Water slammed the gates of Moria, caused a cave-in and ripped out the trees to lock the Company inside. Water is also opposite of fire, the nature of the Balrog. Maybe the Watcher was originally placed to keep the Balrog inside Moria. Galadriel is not far away on the other side. It looks like the Balrog was pretty well contained.
It’s a nameless thing that like climbed up the tunnels made by the dwarves from like super deep dark in u defraud pools, creatures like it also have lived down there since the creation of middle earth
Would Galadriel fair well against the Balrog? Besides her ring she is an above average elf who is most likely a lot less powerful than Gandalf who is known to be as powerful as Sauron without the ring.
It probably says something that Gandalf felt Smaug needed to be taken out before the War of the Ring started, but with Durin's Bane he was content to just get the Fellowship away from it (before he also fell and had to commit to finishing the fight, anyway). There was a very real concern that Sauron could have recruited Smaug, but Gandalf doesn't seem to feel the same about the balrog stalking Moria's ruins. I suspect it's a case of Sauron likely being unable to control a balrog, a fellow Maia, especially in his current weakened state. And even without it Sauron had this war in the bag, so no need to take a risk by working with a being with the power to potentially usurp him.
The reason for this was because the Balrogs were, and arguably rightfully so, afraid that the Valar would show back up to finish what they started when they marched on Morgoth and sunk Beleriand beneath the ocean in so doing. The Silmarillion makes it pretty clear this was the reason they hid in the deepest, most hidden and inhospitable places in the world. If you are willing to go that far to survive, then it makes sense that the Balrog would prioritize drawing as little attention as possible. It's likely that Sauron could have and even might have offered an alliance and was just flat out refused, as the Balrog were still fearful of the Valar. If it wasn't, it didn't really have a reason to remain in Moria, and the others wouldn't have a reason to remain hidden either. That is, of course, if Sauron even knew the Balrog was in Moria, which is never truly confirmed or not.
It's not clear to me what Gandalf knew about Durin's Bane. He knew something was there, but did he know that it was a Balrog? The text in LOTR suggests that it was a nasty surprise to him.
The likeliest reason that Sauron didn't ally with or recruit the Balrog was probably that he just wasn't aware of it lurking in Moria until it stirred, and by the time it did he had far too much going on to devote any thought to it. Had he the time and energy, (and especially if he had the Ring) he would likely have approached Durin's Bane personally and appealed to it as a fellow servant of Morgoth. As Sauron was the mightiest of all of Morgoth's servants, this meant that Sauron was at the very least equal in rank to Gothmog and therefore of superior rank to Durin's Bane. Ring-Sauron was also heavily implied to be stronger than War-of-Wrath!Morgoth (due to the One Ring enhancing Sauron's power while Morgoth had wasted the vast majority of his own through his corruption of the world), so the Balrog would likely respect his power and authority.
i agree with a reason some others already told: a Balrog and Sauron are on the same level. for sure Sauron has more power overall. but it is known that Sauron is a "weak" fighter in direct confrontations. a Balrog would just kick his ass in a fight... a Balrog has no reason to serve the Dark Lord.
Balrogs are ancient spirits of hatred from the Sith Island of Midichlorian. The great ancient historian Giorgio of Tsoukalos wrote in his 100% fully sourced and accurate annals, “I’m not saying they were aliens, but they were aliens.”
I remember reading that Gandalf's actions in "The Hobbit" were intended to prevent Sauron from using Smaug as a weapon in the upcoming war. I also remember reading a timeline that stated Sauron "stocked" Moria with orcs. This strongly implied that Sauron knew about the Balrog and gave him minions as a gift or bribe. Remember, guile, charm and persuasion were also among Sauron's talents. This video only briefly mentions that Sauron's powers were greatly diminished without the One Ring. This bears more emphasis. Sauron was clever and patient and fixated on recovering the One Ring. AFTER the ring was on his finger again, Sauron might have the power to easily enslave the Balrog, Smaug and Shelob at his leisure. Such unstated powers of the Ring, would provide clearer motivations for ALL those who were tempted to possess it throughout the Lord of the Rings. Imagine what they could do, if Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond or Saruman could bend powerful monsters like the Balrog to their will. This was why Sauron obsessed over getting the Ring first.
_"Such unstated powers of the Ring..."_ Perhaps not expressly stated, but heavily implied. Galadriel's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo because of how she would become an object of worship among the people of Middle Earth if she had. Gandalf's and, perhaps more subtly, Aragorn's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo out of fear of what would happen if they did; that fear extending to how they would likely descend into despotism despite having good intentions. A despotism that would see them rule over others. Sam's fantasizing about turning Mordor into an agricultural paradise (obviously in need of tending by thousands of devoted gardeners) during his brief stint of bearing the Ring. I think there's sufficient evidence in the text to support the idea that, among the Ring's many powers, influence - if not outright control of others - could be counted among them. Quite possibly scaling in proportion to the will of the wielder.
He may not have wanted smog as a Allie because Smog may have made a move to take the ring for for his self.Dragons love gold and smog would have more than likely loved the power it had also.
Sauron probably understood he had tactical advantage anyway. He almost won on Pelinor field without even gathering his full force, and lost only because several factors all turned against him. If he managed to get Ring he would have succeeded on second try leaving only scattered and disorganized opposition. And without Ring his disembodied spirit could not control neither Smaug nor Balrog.
I don't think Sauron would have known about the Balrog, it wasn't common knowledge, even to the Dwarves who still thought their kin were in the halls. Between the watcher in the water, and the fact that the orcs in the mine most likely wouldn't have risked travel outside of the mine, especially the considerable distance to Mordor. Not to mention, I doubt any of the orcs would have been smart enough to think to tell Sauron, they would have been extremely cut off from the outside world. Only Gandalf, out of all of his worldly companions with him, seemed to have any inkling that something was amiss. Sauron's knowledge of the outside world was also quite limited after his defeat. When you think about it, there was so much evidence that the ring was in possession of Gollum and the Hobbits, yet he was clueless.
To me, the key is the ring. If a Balrog claimed His ring, it would be no different than Gandolf or Sauron claiming it. They are Competition. Simple as that.
In Peter Jacksons film you basically see a King Kong on fire. When reading the books you are never in doubt. Something wise, intelligent and magical powerfull is coming at you. During bane is not someone you negotiate with. You are either above or below👹
I'm not an expert but if Gandalf could kill the Balrog (although it also cost him) surely Sauron could have confronted it at least to test out its allegiance? Everyone says Sauron was weakened but he seems to me to be more powerful than Saruman and Gandalf? Maybe like most people suggest it was perhaps too close of a battle potentially and if the Balrog just sat in Moria that was also serving a purpose for him.
Great vid! I think Smaug certainly- Gandalf definitely thought so, and saw it as imperative that Smaug was defeated before the free peoples fought against Sauron... I'd argue that Durin's Bane was not beyond his infulence either. Yes the balrog is also a maiar, but Sauron, along with Gothmog (the leader of the balrogs) were the greatest among these to fall along with Morgoth. Sauron however was a master strategist, and patient. While Sauron was likely powerful enough to command the balrog, certainly so while in possesion of the Ring, it did not awaken before his battle against the last alliance (when he was outmatched by the free peoples), and it's awakening was still around 400 years after his victory over the kingdom of Arnor. The real question to ask is "Did Sauron need too?" before the Last Alliance, the dwarves of Khazad dum (Durin's kin) were allied with Men and elves. During the fall of Eregion the Dwarves of Moria attacked and wailaid Sauron, allowing the escape of Elrond and Celebrimbor (who Sauron intended to wrest the locations of the other rings of power from) denying him total victory. Afterwards Sauron led a massive assault on Moria but was unssuccessful. After his defeat at The last alliance and his successful Northern campaign against the Witch King, the dwarves awoke the balrog and Moria was lost. The goal of his projection of power northward in the 3rd age was made with the intent of weakening and dividing Arnor and the scattered remnants of Durin's kin after the fall of Moria. The dwarves, while able to kill orcs, possessed no means to defeat the balrog. Despite multiple valiant efforts they were unnable to reastablish their stronghold until Durin's Bane was vanquished... So if Sauron could command the Balrog, why would he move it? Akin to Shelob, he only needed to leave Durin's Bane be and both parties benefited. Sauron had no need of increasing his direct power to defeat the free peoples (but for our heroes incredibly unlikely success; which Sauron deemed impossible he would win easily) and the dwarves regaining some of their former strength and numbers, (as well as control of the Misty Mountains) would leave a loose end that had bit him before, and could cause serious problems logistically. I'd argue that Durin's Bane was right where Sauron wanted him, or he otherwise may have moved the balrog somewhere else to gain an advantage. One of his most bitter enemies was crippled by simply leaving the balrog where it was.
Because they weren't his to use. You could equally ask why the Moria Balrog didn't use Sauron, as they were both Maia, and were both servants and weapons of Morgoth. You could argue that Gothmog, Morgoth's Lord of the Balrogs, although not more powerful than Sauron, was actually closer to Morgoth.
Yes. Gothmog in the Lord Of The Rings would have usurped Sauron from his throne if he was the Balrog hiding in Moria. As it is, the orcs in Moria were clearly under its command.
Absolutely, this question can be asked. In fact, answering it could be very intriguing. The only problem is that we know much more about Sauron compared to the Balrog
The main difference, is that we know a few things, and one is that Sauron served as Morgoth's Lieutenant. Durin's Bane served as a Captain of Morgoth's, while Gothmog Lord Of Balrogs was Morgoth's General. All of this is mentioned in the Silmarillion about Morgoth's military command structure. How Sauron fitted in is shown in the Lay of Beren and Luthien. All of his actions in that are all pretty much Black Ops stuff. Especially how he took out Beren's father. It means, Durin's Bane would be a War Chief in a Shadow of Mordor type game that focuses on the First Age, and would be the equivalent of Saruon's Ringwraiths. Gothmog would easily be the First Age equivalent of the Witch King of Angmar. @@middleearthtales
I don't think Balrog would've made a difference unlike Smaug. Elves had Glorfindel, also Gandalf was out there and as we know he was enough to defeat Durin's bane. Sauron also had seen Balrogs' demise and their failure. I think it was better to keep low rather letting everybody know he returned once he allied with balrog
Well the simple answer is the balrogs were beings of comparable might and willpower to Sauron. Sauron was just more cunning and ambitious, and was a little stronger. Trying to force a balrog to obey would have been nigh impossible, and would have exhausted Sauron's resources, and finally he would have eventually had to do it himself. That's not a fight with a clear cut result, and Sauron didn't like fighting himself unless he knew he'd win. The only reason he joined the battle on the slopes of Mt Doom was because he was backed into a corner.
I'm sure the Balrog would have noticed Sauron was missing his ring too. Imagine a Balrog with The One Ring. It was a scenario I don't think Sauron could risk.
Sauron couldn't even control Shelob. He calls her his pet, but she owns him not. Even with the confusing syntax I'm pretty sure that's a direct quote from the book. Some creatures were beyond Sauron, making him closer in stature to the wizards.
Sauron feared the wizard's finding the Ring and their power was greatly hindered. Why would he risk a being that was his equal before he made the ring to be near him and possibly find his lost ring before him? If he found the ring then sure. His focused will as granted by reclaiming the ring would make it possible to convince the balrog to join him. But before reclaiming the ring? It would be perhaps a bigger threat to him then all the armies of men and elves marching on him in their ancient glory. Better to not poke that bear in the eye until he had to. Might as well ask why the nameless things were not recruited. You know, because they have so much in common with a self-important tyrant.
Honestly, I believe it's a mix of 1) Balrogs won't serve Sauron as loyally as they did with Morgoth and 2) Durin's Bane was also in Moria, right between Elrond (who has Vilya) and Galadriel, wielder of Nenya. Recovering the Balrog could have been too much of a risk.
Because both souron and the balrogs are of the Miar. The balrogs were miar than cloaked them selves in shadow and flame after following melcor. Souron was on the miar and the strongest. He became something different
There were many balrogs. They were valors that followed Malkors evil song right? They were celestial beings that were corrupted and cloaked themselves with shadow and fire, according to the silmarillion. I think there was like 6.
The reason is likely because the Balrog would recognize Sauron for whom he truly was. For all of Sauron's power, the truth is Sauron was an opportunist whom quietly rose to power after his masters were slain. Sauron and the Balrog served the same masters. At best the Balrog would see Sauron as a contemporary to them, an equal. Most than likely they would seem him as a coward that claimed power through trickery, instead of on the battlefield, thus the Balrog would go to war with Sauron. Should Sauron and his army fall in such a war, the Balrog would turn on the rest of the world, turning everything into ash.
i assume the AI voice reads from a script you produce. so i should mention that Valinor is the name of the land, in which The Valar reside. So "The Valinor" did not capture Melkor. The Valar did. And Melkor appealed to Manwe, the leader of the Valar. Eonwe is a Maia that serves under Manwe.
I like to think until he achieves his goals he would adapt the Balrog like Shelob and use them where they alreayd are to block shortcuts or backdoors or paths of escape. And maybe if sauron does win then he brings the balrog into the fold once he has the one ring and only if he feels he is powerful enough to dominate the balrog!
No. Melkor was gone. The balrogs (including, "Durin's Bane," hid in the deepest, darkest depths of the earth. Melkor could command them, and did, with various measures of success. Sauron... was *not* Melkor. So, long story short, Balrogs and Sauron, on the, "Hey, where do I fall in the angelic hierarchy," thing, they were equals. Melkor was higher on the angelic order than Sauron. Sauron, honestly, was the same sort of angelic being that Balrogs were. He couldn't command shit. If Sauron said to a Balrog, "Hey, I command you," a Balrog would simply say, "no, we are the same, now piss off." A Balrog had it's own motivations, it's own desires. *Now*, if Sauron *had* the, "One Ring," that would change things.
Right off the bat, I would say that the Balrog would see serving Sauron beneath him, as both the Balrog and Sauron were Maiar in the service of Melkor. Sauron would be an equal at the very most, and no greater, to the Balrog.
Why didn't the Elves of Rivendell and/or Lothlorien rid Moria of the Balrog, if its presence thwarted travel routes between those two lands (Galadriel's kin had killed several Balrogs in the First Age so another would have been no match for them or her, especially if assisted by her son-in-law)? And why wasn't the Balrog awoken during the tumultuous events at the end of the Second Age when Elrond's Elves would have had to cross either the High Pass or Moria to reach the battlefield where they supported Isildur?
Even during Morgoth's time, Balrogs were not common? Also is there someone born a Balrog instead of a generation that was corrupted? A golden-white or holy Balrog Paladin is woke or beyond heresy?
The balrogs probably werent huge fans of Sauron. They followed Melkor even before the ainulindale, but Sauron only defected at the end of the years of the lamps, which lasted 50% of the entire history of Arda. He immediately took rank over them becoming Morgoths Lieutenant.
@@RavenHart-sx8xs They were trees of light until Ungoliant consumed them with the help of Melkor, then what remained of them was fashioned into the "Lamps". Also, at least according to the encyclopedia of arda, the poster is incorrect in the duration of Sauron's allegiance, he was working for Melkor in one form or another even before the darkening of the Valar and the start of the first age, which predates the creation of the Balrogs and dragons IIRC.
What conversation between the Balrog and Sauron would boil down to… Sauron: “Hey buddy, remember me?” Balrog: *confused* Mairon, is that you?” Sauron: “Yep. Long time no see. Ya look great, how are you?” Balrog: “I’m fine old friend. I should be the one asking that. Sauron: *confused* “Come again?” Balrog: “What, are you not use it mirrors anymore? You look terrible, your aura is smaller and you feel weak in power.” *genuine concern* “What happened to you? Your face, your hair, your hand?” Sauron: “It’s a long story, but to summarize; I made ring to enhance my power and even bound my soul to it but lost it and “died” about 3,000 years ago but I’m better now.” Balrog: “You bound yourself to a ring? Gothmog and Boldog were right, you truly *are* an idiot.” Sauron: *desperately trying to get to the point out of impatience* “Whatever, I stayed up the old empire in Mordor. You in or out?” Balrog: “Are Lord Melkor, Cpt. Gothmog, Kosmot, or even the pale Balrog around?” Sauron:”…N…no.” Balrog: “Then get lost ya ember haired pretty boy. And leave me in peace.” Sauron: *utterly done* “You dare speak to me in such a manner? Dare disobey me!? Listen well, you oversized…” Balrog ascends to true high, form and power:*cuts him off* “No *YOU* listen to *ME,* you deformed usurping weasel!” “I DON’T take orders from YOU! I only obey Melkor, Gothmog, or my Balrog kin! And *they* are all gone. Get off my lawn, and don’t come back. Sauron powering up: *stern yet raspy voice* “You DON’T want to do this.” Balrog: “Don’t bother, Mairon. We both know what happened the last time you fought a Balrog in single combat. And you were *much* stronger back then. Go home and leave me be In my home.”
It seems clear that Sauron wanted to RULE Middle Earth not destroy it, while its very likely that the Balrog would want to DESTROY the very lands and people that Sauron seeks to rule. And the Balrog being of immense, if not equal power, may not have been something that Sauron was willing to challange. Same holds true with Smaug and Shlob, those to lesser extent.
Agreed. Sauron wants to conquer and rule everything, but the Balrog comes across as the sort of creature that a) Would just want to destroy everything in sight indiscriminately, and b) Is almost completely uncontrollable. It's not an attack dog that can be tamed, it's more like a rabid bear.
@@Adamguy2003The balrogs could be tamed by Morgoth, the one who corrupted them. But not by Sauron, especially not without the One Ring. I don't believe that he fully controlled Saruman either. Saruman simply saw no victory against Sauron. But he would have rebelled (and failed) if he ever got ahold of the Ring himself. He was in it for himself, Durin's Bane even more so. But none of them would have dared to rebel against Morgoth.
Sauron was already terrified that Saruman might claim the ring for his own. And Saruman even in his treachery, was limited as an Istari. The Balrog was a fully-powered Maia though. And had given itself to darkness for even more power. So it's natural that the last thing Sauron wanted was the Balrog getting any ideas of claiming the ring for its own.
@@Dunkelelf3 A Barlog that managed to kill Gandalf is still pretty powerful though. A shadowflame powered Maia that was not morally or physically limited in any way. It could still harness and use the full power of the ring on top of its own. Perhaps even in ways that even Sauron could not. It might be less powerful than a ring-bearing Gandalf or ring-bearing Saruman. But it probably still would overpower a half-powered ringless Sauron. Or at least directly challenge him
@@Dunkelelf3isn’t Gandalf more powerful than both Saruman and Sauron but a lot more humble in his abilities etc. Also Maiar and Istari are one and the same.
I can see what you’re saying, but this isn’t Dungeons and Dragons or some other typical fantasy. In Tolkien’s world, I believe good and evil are much more black and white and don’t fall so much into the lawful, neutral, chaotic, etc tropes. Identifying characters as lawful evil or chaotic evil is a fine way to classify things from a reader’s point of view, but I don’t think it applies so much to Tolkien’s world from an in-universe perspective.
Indeed both dark lords has different objectives Melkor wanted the complete destruction of Arda and perhaps all of creation Sauron just wanted to bend middle earth to his will even with the one ring he knew he was outclassed ans outmatched by the Valar residing in Valinor even if he had the whole of middle earth as his army.
The ultimate doomsday scenario for late Third Age Middle Earth would have been if Durin's Bane had overcome Gandalf, slain the whole Fellowship, and taken the One Ring. At that point, I think the situation for all factions in the War of the Ring would have been so dire that the Free Peoples and Sauron would have had to form a VERY uneasy and temporary alliance just to stop the Ring-enhanced Balrog...
But would a balrog even desire the ring? 6:55 they seem to me as well to just be pure evil and mindless brawlers. Seeng Durin's Bane slaughter everyone frodo panicked and puts the ring on only to still be seen and struck down all the while Sauron instantly finds him. After killing everyone the balrog goes back to take a nap and Sauron sends his smallest and fastest orc to retrieve the ring.
Nope Balrog were of lesser God/Angel status and same form of being as Gandalf and Sauron. And it was the Balrog's counter spell the broke Gandalf's door bar. So it very smart. And certainly would want to use the Ring to make it self the ruler of Middle Earth not Sauron. @@NexusGameEnt
@@milferdjones2573 magic in Tolkien's universe doesn't require a high cognition as it's emanated through strength of words and spirit. The only balrog I can imagine to have the ambition of a darklord would've been Gothmog since he was their leader and held a high position similar to Sauron. Durin's Bane didn't establish a seat of power in Moria when he fled there he just killed everyone when he woke up this is why I believe the ring would be ignored the guy only had a desire to sleep and not be disturbed by Eru's children. He only left the goblins in khazadum be because they too descend from his master Morgoth
If we look at the source material we can see that Tolkien went on and about how the Maia are powerful spirits with different amount of power and how their power changes with their form. Tarindor (Sarumans old moniker) for example was so strong that he was chosen - together with Melian and the other guardians - to keep the elves save from Melkor (the strongest of all the Ainur). Later on he had not as much power because he was clothed in a specific disguise. Sauron lost his form many times - once due to Huán and Luthien, then later due to Numenór and then due to Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur. The Balrog in Moria was one of the few who survived all the battles that killed most of its kind in Beleriand and hid himself. Not from Sauron though, who also was thinking about going back to the Valar. Remember that he went to Eonwe and asked him to be forgiven and be taken back into Aules service, but Eonwe told him he couldnt accept him and that only the Valar could do that. Sauron was also disgraced by his defeat at Tol Sirion and we never hear from him again in the wars in Beleriand thereafter, so its save to assume that he lost his high position at Morgoths court, while the Balrogs always stayed the "bodyguards" and "shock-troops" of the dark tower and - as such - high in favor. Also Sauron has no leverage for the Balrog. It has no loyalty to him or his plans. The balog was just a neutral party that waited until Morgoth came back or he would hear the call of Morgoth again. Sauron was able to dominate other Maia as we see with Saruman, who - although weakened and not able to use his full power - fell partly under his spell. The Balrog is fully empowered and i reckon Sauron knew that the Balrog was in Moria. He also knew of Smaug in the Lonely Mountain and kept him there without any contact. So why wouldnt Sauron take the chance to unleash the Balrog? He sure would love to see him coming down on Rivendell or Lothlorien and weaken the elvish domains there, but he wasnt able to control him properly. And Sauron - in essence - always was a being of what? Order. Control. Like most of Aules creatures he loved to create, control and order things and that is what he did. He was not Morgoth with his idea to destroy what he could not have. He wanted to control and order it so that it all went orderly under his tutelage and eyes. The Balrog in essence was a lap dog for Morgoth but not for Sauron. So i think Sauron was happy that the Balrog sat inside Moria and kept to himself.
The biggest problem for Sauron IMHO is also from the source material. Sauron, the balrogs, and the dragons were all roughly equals under morgoth and came from the same status before they were corrupted,. They're equally powerful in different ways (besides smaug, he's the youngest, smallest, and weakest of the dragons) and owe no allegiance to each other. Sauron can't control or coerce either of them when he can barely even manifest himself as a floating fireball on a stick without the ring, the best move he could make was leaving them where they sat. They kept two dwarven nations from rebuilding, and their presence attracted plenty of orks, wargs, trolls, and other beasts that would cause problems for the neighbouring elves and humans. tldr: he could kill two sticks with one bird by leaving them alone
The absolute power of the armies that Morgoth could field was just immense. He leisurely sent balrogs and dragons to accompany armies of hundreds of thousands of orcs. Once, he even sent Balrogs on top of dragons... Sauron never had even a fraction of that power. Then again, he didn't have to fight against the still powerful dwarven empires, the still prominent elves of middle earth, the noldor and even the Valar themselves.
I am convinced that Tolkien never entertained the idea that the Balrog or Smaug would ever bother to align themselves with Sauron. It is similar to Tom Bombadil or the many other characters or powers in Middle Earth. It was probably Tolkien’s intention that these characters or figures be nothing more than additional powers that would remain unaligned, and be more caught up with their own self-interest. In Sauron’s weakness, without the One Ring, it’s likely the Balrog could have possibly surpassed Sauron, if it struck the Balrog’s fancy. When reading TLOTR and watching the movies I had always thought of the Balrog as a sort of entity of darkness who lacked agency, like a sort of berserker. Like I never got the idea that the Orcs and fowl creates of Moria _served_ the Balrog but sort of held the Balrog in a fearful reverence, like the Balrog was just as likely to kill them as command them to do anything. It seems like the Orcs of Moria sort of drove the Fellowship toward the Balrog then ran off, like the orcs were leaving an offering to their vengeful god.
We don't know much about the nature of balrogs. They were once Maiar, yes, but it seems that Melkor changed them into these fire demons to serve his purposes. It's possible that they were more like animals than sentients, as seen in the way the balrog that eventually came to Moria and hid for such long ages after it was logically necessary. We get little sense that it has much of what we would call consciousness or awareness, let alone further territorial ambition. The Dwarves forced it into action, but once it had Moria under its sway, it just sat there. Without Melkor driving it, it had only an animal-like satisfaction in staying put in its den. It doesn't plan, it doesn't speak, it shows few signs of being a thinking as opposed to instinctual creature. So it's possible that Sauron couldn't make an alliance with a balrog. At best, as you suggest, it was like Shelob, useful to him where it was (assuming he was even aware of it).
Always thought they subsumed themselves into the world, so to speak, became part of the physical world. Like elves choosing to stay and adopting mortality, it's a big choice. Their nature changed.
gothmog was morgoth's general, the other balrogs morgoth's captains, sauron morgoth's lieutenant. either might have been able to dominate smaug, a considerably lesser dragon than glaurung or ancalagon the black were, or maybe not. dragons were morgoth's pet weapons project, after all.
I think your interpretation is completely wrong. I don't know Tolkien's lore deeply but from what I know, Balrogs are sentient and intelligent. In the books, it's said that they can talk, negotiate terms, lead armies etc. Also in the book, Durins Bane not only fought with Gandalf physically, but also using magic. He casted counter spells which nearly broke Gandalf.
@@anshadedavana You may be right, but I can't think of an occasion where they spoke, at least in anything canonical (i.e. published in Tolkien's lifetime). So much of what we think we know with Tolkien is just provisional, what he's thinking at the moment, and he could always change his mind. For instance, in the Book of Lost Tales there are many Balrogs attacking Gondolin, but in later writing he said there were probably no more than three Balrogs ever. Even the "fact" that they are Maiar, though widely accepted, isn't in any of the canonical books.
Sauron couldn't control the Balrog, not reliably, and couldn't risk losing control of his minions during dfforts to dominate the Balrog. Since he couldn't guarantee dominating it, a creature nearly at an equal level of raw power, he left the Balrog to sow it's own chaos. There's no way Sauron would trust a voluntary alliance with the Balrog, and I believe he feared lest the Balrog usurp his Ring before he could find it and secure possession.
@@gojewla Except that it's apples and oranges. One could make the argument the Balrog is a more powerful martial threat than Sauron. But Sauron isn't playing by those rules. He never takes to the field of battle except as a last resort. Sauron's way is the way of water rather than of fire, of slow erosion, of corruption. Gandalf knows this. It's why the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth rather than a host from Arda as was done with Morgoth; because Sauron can't be defeated by force of arms. Any such "defeat" is temporary as Sauron's spirit lives on through his Ring to eventually reform itself. Gandalf knows that to fight Sauron is to lose; even if he was capable of "defeating" him in a duel based on his success against the Balrog. Sauron can only be defeated through misdirection, subterfuge, and his own overbearing arrogance leveraged against him (i.e. refusing to accept that anyone could ever bring themselves to destroy the Ring in an effort to destroy him). The Balrog is powerful within its domain; direct martial combat. Quite possibly more powerful than Sauron. But Sauron is more powerful within his domain - corruption, manipulation, patience, and long-term strategy - than the Balrog. And, given that time is on Sauron's side along with the fact he can't be destroyed while the Ring exists, Sauron always wins in the end; even in the face of a superior martial foe. So it _could_ be argued the Balrog is equal or even more "powerful" than Sauron; but only if one is using a very primitive definition of power as _"one who can hit harder with a flaming sword"_ versus _"an immortal who can manipulate the fortunes of entire civilizations across millennia to achieve long-term goals."_
"the AI stubbornly mispronounces some names" I was actually gonna thumbs down this video because the odd pronunciations despite having examples of how they were pronounced in the films were annoying me. I thought you were mipronouncing them on purpose to be different, but that explains it a bit more. I withdraw the thumbs down and gave the video a thumbs up instead, funny how humans are such frivolous creatures isn't it?
I wouldn't mind if you used A.I. Do we corner producers and directors for using writers and actors. OH you didn't do that yourself, you hired people to do it! ;) Congrats and don't let anyone put you down, ignore or just block...block is wonderful...use it like salt, if you were a saltaholic. Cheers
Why would the Balrog work under a Maia that abandoned Melkor and hide during the latter years of the First Age and didn't help during the War of Wrath. Sauron likely didn't want the Balrog know that he instilled a portion of his power in a ring that he lost and was afraid the Barlog would try to seize the ring for himself. I would also surmise that some of the goblins of Moria were watching for the ring bearer but kept the Barlog uninformed about it since the goblins waited until the Fellowship had spent days moving through Moria and were only a few hours from the East Gate before attacking. No way they didnt keep watch throughout Moria. Once the Balrog might have been alerted by the noise in the Throne room they attacked early to try to capture the ring and flee to the East Gate with it. Highly speculative but it explains the goblins being seemingly oblivious that they were there for days.
where are you getting this tale of sauron's betrayal and desertion of morgoth from? and did not the balrog also flee to hide at the roots of a mountain?
@@thehellyousay Silmarillion. Sauron was Morgoth's 2nd in command. Sauron captured and tortured Beren. Galadriel's brother, Finrod sacrificed himself to save Beren in the dungeon. When Lúthien came with Huan the hound to saved Beren, Huan defeated Sauron's minions and then shapeshifting Sauron himself. Sauron fled and hid until the 2nd Age. He did not return to his master, Morgoth to assist him and the Balrogs nor did he help during the War of Wrath. The Balrog fled presumably during the War of Wrath when he knew that Morgoth lost hiding in the mountains. The Balrog likely would not help someone who he worked under who then fled and hid from the boss, Morgoth, and didn't help when the Valar's forces arrived for the War of Wrath. The Balrog would be very interested in combining his power with the part of Sauron's power instilled in the One Ring.
Are most AI voiced videos created by a chatGP type program, or is a transcript just read by someone that doesn’t want to be on camera? Genuinely asking because I tend to avoid AI voices videos but this seems well written with accurate content and insight.
Durin's Bane and Sauron would have known each other right? They both served Morgoth during his time. So these two probably shared a beer at the bar after torturing and murdering elves every friday night when they were serving.
Its pretty obvious to me. Balrogs don't likely make real good employees. My guess is they are prone to being insubordinate. The Balrog would probably think Sauron need to be its employee. And had the Balrog been able to get the one ring, then Sauron WOULD have been its employee, not the other way round.
So many wrong comments 😂 According to HoM-E Balrogs were much lesser spirits than Sauron. They also fallowed Morgoth in the start which makes them weaker Gandalf slays Balrog but he is scared af of Sauron who doesn't have Ring and he admita it
Wrong, Sauron puts the goblins and black uruks under the control of the Balrog in Moria. Currently, in the book, Sauron uses the Balrog, but before he can reach his final goal, the balrog is killed by Gandalf the Gray, it is explained in the book...
I see that both Sauron and Durin's Bane were both Maiar and probably saw each other as equals more than Sauron seeing him as someone to dominate. Plus, in order for Sauron to influence Durin's Bane, he needed the one ring to do so since he wasn't at his full power and Durin's Bane was.
First off Great Video...and love YOU'RE WORK and it doesn't bother me one bit that you use AI Voice and if anyone has a problem with it then they can go watch someone else's channel I mean it's very Petty for people to be that way. I think your assessments in the video are excellent and very reasonable based upon tolkien's work.... I would add that the balrog being a fire Spirit from the very beginning in heaven before Arda was a chosen servant that means he chose willingly and openly to serve the dark lord melkor... Where as Sauron was deceived and manipulated and swayed into the service of Melkor... And their direct Commander was Gothmog who was a lieutenant also like Sauron so they would not have fallen under sauron's control or power so there would not have been any subservience on the part of durins bane.... At best there could have been a Alliance but considering that sauron was in a lesser State than before I seriously doubt there would have even been an Alliance... Like you said in the video they have their own realms to be masters of and by Durinsbane occupying moria was extremely significant....I think Durinsbane would probably have laughed if Sauron came for an alliance especially not having the ring of power... Smaug was not likely either to be moving from the lonely mountain however he might have been open to an Alliance but not a servitude of Sauron because he knew Sauron was in an weakened state.... But between the two in my opinion would have been more open to an Alliance but I don't think it really would have benefited him much because he had what he wanted.... Sauron would have had a better chance of getting other dragons in the North to come to his Aid And for some reason people keep misrepresenting the Balrogs in the Comments song saying they were servants of Aule which is 100% not true...the Balrogs chose in heaven to Rebel so they were partners in crime with Melkor and served him directly under Gothmog... Anyway Great video you get five stars ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Simple answer If someone with the same rank and security clearance gives u orders… would u do it? U dont have to … so u just dont They are literally equals both servants of Morgoth
Wasn't the Balrog a "Balrog of Morgoth" and Sauron was also a servant of Morgoth. So there is no reason to assume these two servants would team up. Once Morgoth was banished to the Abyss, they pursued their own particular agenda's.
It's so upsetting that you have to clarify that you do your own work on your videos. This new age of AI has really brought creatives down :( Wonderful video though! I subscribed :)
