Good job presenting the evidence, digging into the records, explaining the situation and trying to make sense of this. Keep going until the truth is known!
Very persuasive. For anyone that sees this, it changes their view forever of what was possible at Carthage. Your podcast episodes are high quality and well thought out. I wonder if any Mormon apologists would accept an invitation to come on your channel and debate you at this point?
Totally agree with your thesis on this one, Justin. The science behind it needs a little work, but I believe the concept is correct. I always think in terms of how things would hold up in court. So, six or less people entered the jail. Not 11 (or more). A .69 caliber lead bullet erupted from a musket *at some point* during the conflict. How was Joseph able to enter that crowded hallway and fire off shots if there were 11 people there? Obviously, someone is lying or mistaken. Extremely unlikely that shot through the door actually hit Hyrum in the face. Saints already pivoted away from John Taylor and Willard Richards’ account. Not even the church believes their eye-witness account. Great work.
I’m so glad for what you do. You use their own lies to force truth out of them. They deny the truth of course, but if it brings just a few out of the dangers of hell it’s worth it. I’m sure they will give you a hard time over these videos if they ever get their heads away from their own asses. I’ve studied Mormonism for over 20 years and the more I learn the more sickening the leaders get. False gospel,false Christ. False stories and fake people
Looking at a blackened face, how could anyone tell that the face had been blackened with "mud and gunpowder" specifically? Why would anybody waste gunpowder blackening his face, when charcoal dust or ash was available everywhere and virtually free?
Sad that as LDS, we would rather believe the sensationalized versions of anything than the honest truth in everything. Doesn't make us sound very Christian.
It’s amazing to me the lengths some people will go to disparage the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! The primary facts about the events of that day are that the Prophet Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were martyred by a mob of cowards who shot thru a door at the Carthage jail. The Prophet Joseph could have saved his life by denying all that he had said about the church, up to that point. Instead, he sealed his testimony with his blood! That’s all I need to know about the Prophet Joseph Smith and the martyrdom that took place at the Carthage jail.
@gordontyree4308 Joseph didn't go to Carthage because of his testimony. He went to jail because, as mayor of Nauvoo, he illegally ordered the destruction of the printing press of the Nauvoo Expositor, which exposed his polygamy. People expose the church because as they learn the true history, they discover they were lied to by the very church they dedicated themselves to. If you close your mind to what really happened, then you set yourself up for being manipulated and believing in things that are not true.
Taking a painting and saints as. Reality is foolish. Good you went back to the original sources. I agree the mob would be small 5 to 10 men in the jail. The stairs are narrow, good presentation.
I wonder how much the size of the hole varies with humidity (wood expansion and contraction) at different times of the year. Also if door was finished and when might affect dimensions. Might account for large caliber pistols. Just doesn’t make sense to me to take muskets into close quarters.
What I still never hear people talk about is that mobs at that time considered themselves a quasi judicial body, they would have had a trial (without the defendant) where they determined the quilt of the party then they would capture the convicted party and execute them in a orderly matter. i.e. a hanging or firing squad. If you read other accounts J.S. survived the fall and was propped against the wall and a firing squad was assembled and executed him... The main point being that the shots into the room were not intended to kill J.S. as they would have wanted him captured so he could be executed... It is also unlikely that he or J.T. would have been shot at the window...again because the purpose was to capture them and execute them in an orderly fashion.
could the 1/2 inch walnut had slightly elastic properties prior to the musket ball penetrating it? This could be one explanation of why the final hole is 0.58 inches instead of 0.69 inches. Did you get any high speed video when you were doing your ballistic tests on the simulated door panels?
@@cameronsmith5786 Wood has slightly elastic properties. Justin did many ballistic tests shooting simulated door panels. All the holes in the panels were smaller than the projectiles that were shot at them. He has real evidence to back up his claims.
Justin, at 17 mins your guys are talking about Musket angle and how tall that guy would have been. For me it make more logical sense that instead of a musket it was a large caliber pistol at close range. Thoughts?
They did have .69 Cal Flintlock pistols back then. IE DUTCH/BELGIAN Sea Service .69 circa 1830 or the Horse Pistol which was made in Philadelphia Model 1799.
I agree about the numbers going into the jail, but Casey Childs used exact measurements to create the stairs and models to stand on them. So, I think you might be pushing back a little too hard on the facts.
He used the exact dimensions of the building but not the correct bullet hole angle. That angle he obviously took from the Lyon bros and Sam Weston. But I’m glad you agree on the mob numbers. That sets right a very old wrong.
Interesting. But 4 of the problems u mentioned seem easily explained away: 1/ "2-3 men could not fit on a narrow stair". Well, Two men easily could. Simply because they are in a heightened and frenzied state and it's my understanding that they may have had alcohol given to them prior. Their bodies are close, squeezed or contorted together, etc. Easy. It would NOT make sense that they would each go up one at a time orderly. 2/ the claim is that they couldn't have been such large Gage and multiple guns in close proximity because of the dangerous blast from the firing mechanisms, etc. The rebuttal to this is similar to the above. These people seem pretty enraged, possibly drunk, and very determined to kill… Almost at any expense so I think in this state of mind that they were in, they didn't really care of the close proximity of the gunfire, etc. . 3/ the claim is that only three or four were at the door. But the witness account says just that three or four broke in. And that doesn't negate the likelihood that multiple men followed them up. The other witness says, maybe half a dozen. But that could be the initial half doesn't before several followed them up, etc. Another couple witnesses say there was a mob hundred and that part of them were ones that entered the base of the jail. Yeah, that could be three or four or it could be 70 or 80 attempting. 4/ the problem with a musket being fired so high up in the air at head level , downward. I noticed that when you stood at the stairway, you were not standing at the top you're standing on a lower stair, and u put the butt at your head level. Of course I can't see the exact logistics and layout like you did there. Maybe it wasn't possible for you to stand at the very top of the stairway. I don't know. But if it is possible, I may could certainly stand at the top and actually could have shot the musket above his head… Because again he was in a frenzies state willing to do anything to get smith. If you have a minute, I'll be curious what your response would be. Thank you.
They just wanted to grab the Smiths to take outside for the mob to hang. That’s why young men were chosen, given some alcohol first to calm their nerves, sent in the jail, and why there were only 4 to a max of 6 of them. That’s also why they shot the door. They needed it open to grab and take the Smiths outside. Shooting the keyhole shows this. They didn’t expect the Smiths to have firearms and fight back. The problems mentioned are valid. It just didn’t happen how it was told by Willard and John.
Psychology Today wrote a nice article titled “Embellish the Details! Exaggerated stories can cultivate closeness.” “Listening to someone recount an unbelievable experience or sharing one’s own can draw people closer to one another. Does it matter whether the telling is completely accurate? Recent studies suggest that shared stories can warm listeners up to storytellers even when there is reason to think an account is somewhat embellished.” I doubt the historians understood this psychology, but it’s probably instinctual to embellish. Plus, I wouldn’t describe the church or its affiliates as truthful in general.
So nine men were indicted and three were injured when Joseph smith fired off three random shots. And Joseph and his brother were shot 5 times between them and John Taylor was wounded 4 times But only 4 -6 men with single shot muskets were involved in the mob? If there was only room for four men at the top of the stairs it still doesn’t explain how many men were behind them on the stairs or how many would have filled corridor on either side of the door. And remember that earlier that day the mob tried to get into the room but ran away when Joseph merely rebuked them verbally. These were not brave men. They were the typical cowards who get involved in lynch mobs because they are too scared to do anything on their own. Just 4-6 of them would never have had the guts to run up those stairs without knowing they were being backed up by as many others who could cram themselves in. The artists depiction seems more credible than your version, and that doesn’t even take into account artistic license.
remember that the only eyewitnesses there that day that said how many went into the jail gave the numbers of 4 and 6. also remember that the guys Joseph shot at ran out of the jail and and around to fire at him when he was coming out of the window. How could they have done that so quickly if the stairs where jam packed with other mob members?
@@justin-griffin Do they eye witnesses have any credibility though? They were part of a ;lynch mob. Not actually the most reliable of witnesses. And even if you are correct about the number, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE??? This whole video is like two men arguing about whether the sun is white or yellow while they burn their eyes out trying to figure it out.
Its good not to sensationalise anything. On another note: cheif midegah of the ojibwe nation and the birch bark scrolls. The nemenhah records. "New Zealand skeletons in the cupboard "
Taylor and Richards wouldn't know what was on the other side of the door. I think it's obvious that the mob also had hand guns. The hole has been compromised. The expert was not convincing about the size of the hole, but his demonstration with the dowel showed that the weapon could not have been a musket.
@@justin-griffin I think both yours and Dan's theory are both plausible. Personally I lean towards Dan's on this, having said that if you can get permission to get behind that wall and find shocked rock evidence that would be good to see.
@@celicalostandfound I would be interested to see evidence from the walls. Every piece is helpful and thanks to the Lyon brothers and Justin we have much more than anyone living at the time. I don't exactly have a theory yet. I find it hard to believe the hole hasn't changed size.
@@danvogel6802 I wonder if we can estimate how many people have been through and stuck their fingers in it? Do you think it is over 100,000 people that would do that over that period of time? We may only be talking about micrometers of wear. I would try and do an analog and do 1000 passes and then measure to see and do the math.
@@celicalostandfound You can see that the finish on the outside of the door is worn just in recent times. I wonder who would have subsequently lived in a room with a hole in the door? Who knows what this door has gone through?
It's not about forgiveness, it's about what historians can get away with. Right now, they're fairly corrupt. Recently there was a women's conference with historians who said we were the anti Christ if we believed certain things. One of them was believing the book of mormon took place in North America. Why does that even matter? Why would that make someone anti Christ? We have a great power struggle going on in the church. So, where forgiveness is most definitely crucial to our salvation.... allowing corrupt, power hungry people determine what we're allowed to say and believe is crossing the line ya know?
Your expert loses even more credibility with his statement about Richards and Taylor. He doesn't know what he would do in the same situation. I would delete that part it's so bad and irrelevant. He obviously isn't a good interpreter of his own evidence with the dowel, but it was an interesting test.
@@justin-griffin His statement at the end where he implies Richards was a coward if he hid behind the door and therefore didn't hide but was responsible for the murders.
@@danvogel6802 I think you may have misheard that. He was simply saying it didn’t make sense for Willard to be there as a body guard and then cower behind the door.
@@justin-griffin Not to belabor a small point, but he was unarmed and no one knows what they would do. It's easy to talk brave. It's not evidence that Richards was lying and therefore could have been involved in the murders.
@@danvogel6802if Richards is so trustworthy and believable, why is the account of the martyrdom in ‘Saints’ different than what Richards claimed? It’s because his version doesn’t add up. So the church had to go a different route. You can say he was confused rather than that he was lying- either way, his account has been cast aside by the church to a significant degree.
