"I've heard both...." Once again Mithrandir brings reason to this delicate topic. Keep up the great work Mellon! The world needs more Tolkien. Hope all is well.
@@kauetadaieski3131 if only elves were so egotistical and have given the dwarfs a payment for their hard work. They just wanted to be recognized for their skills as great miners and craftsmen.
That event might have ignited the feud, but Thingol's hateful words to those dwarves prior to his murder is proof that an innate dwarf-inferior-elf-superior idea was quite evident.
He certainly mellowed after Beren and Luthien but before that he really was an ass and should have left ruling Doriath to Amelia’s who’d obviously done a far better job
In the old MERP Rpg, they made something of the rivalry between dwarves and elves but said this was less so between dwarves and the Sindar Elves. I think they must have just based this on Legolas and Gimli at the end of the novel as it seems to me that the Noldor and the dwarves got on fine most of the time. The example of Celebrimbor and Narvi is given in the video and Elrond welcomes Thorin and company. Dwarves had come to the rescue of Elrond in the second age when his forces were under siege too. On the flip side, the Noldor are responsible for a lot of bad stuff which ultimately comes to the door of all elves and leads to Sindar being the language used by all elves in Middle Earth. It is also worth pointing out that the dwarves from Belegost did not join with those forces who went to do battle in the caves, being not wholly convinced it would seem by the telling of events as given. The history of dwarves and elves is complicated. To say they hated each other is to gloss over a lot of what they achieve when working together. By the time of the War of the Ring, the communities around Middle Earth had spent centuries receding into their own little worlds. The main recent interaction of dwarves and elves was when Thorin's company were held prisoner in King Thrandruil's Halls, the subsequent fighting at Erebor where they were at odds with each other only to bury the hatchet when the orcs turned up to the battlefield. Whilst the outcome was to the good, I imagine there were still some grudges held on both sides. It is against this backdrop that Legolas and Gimli come to be in each other's company and thus several thousand years of history is refracted poorly through a very narrow prism.
As an optimistic person (at least when it comes to Lord of the Rings) I would say elves and dwarves could have gotten along just fine. Sadly there was a lot of inteference. One being the 2 dwarves who lied and framed the elves for everything, resulting in their war, or at least a battle. And then Sauron and the 7 rings which if I understand it correctly affected the dwarves by making them greedy and otherwise corrupting them, even if not fully like the 9 did with the mortal men doomed to die. Still, if you look at Gimli and Legolas, Navi and Celebrimbor. Those are amazing examples of what happens when a dwarf and elf look past whatever stories and previous misconceptions and simply be themselves.
Hurin the cursed. I definately want to hear his Story from you, as you are amongst the best content creators covering Tolkiens work, of which I know of. Best wishes to you and for All your endeavours.
If the dwarves stubbornness was the same, and Elven pride the same, then regardless of the circumstances of their creation I’d say they would always have issues throughout history.
Tolkien was a genius not many can create a world as intricate as he did middle earth , the mythology , the different races , even the languages etc . To think he started writing in the trenches of war is even more crazy . R.I.P to Mr Tolkien and thank you for giving us such a great world to escape to .
I think the Dwarves and Menfolk get along so well because Human behavior is closer to Dwarves, and vice versa, then to Elves. Humans are the in-between, sharing traits from both but are largely more pragmatic in thought, and are given to the same some-what dour outlook then the more cerebral, cultured, and celebratory Elves.
Given that Yavanna prophesied it with her foreboding about the differing attitude of the two races towards her trees, the enmity was going to happen one way or another. The Nauglamir, or more specifically, Thingol’s foolish impulse to have the Silmaril added to it, thereby waking the Oath of Feanor, was simply the biggest of multiple clashes between the races.
Sindarin elves like, Thranduil & his farther as well as Celeborn(Galadriel's husband) lived in Doriath during the 1st age under King Thingol. Thats why Legolas/mirkwood elves only heard the elves' side of the story. Also when Galadriel wanted to go to Lorien via Moria, Celeborn refused to go, bc of his hatred of dwarves, Galadriel was a Noldor elf and had no reason to hate dwarves.
I'm surprised you didn't include the rings of power. the 7 given to the dwarves made them even more greedy which further split them from the elves. Hurin the Cursed. It's such a sad overlooked tale that needs to get told more.
Interesting 4 Clans of Dwarths are in palisor under control of most important morgoth servant Fankil ho was than ho corupted mens in first edge to go to help morgoth in beleriand and belegors and nagrod are distroed by nandors of osiriand than that bastards turned back after dostroing Artanor/Doriath and sauron was able to give only to Moria a ring but well tolkien writed entire legendarium with 0 logic plus like a quadripolar personality , sauron was in reality Thu ,Finwe haved 4 Sons not 3 Elwe was Tinvelint Celeborn was telerian from valinor not from Artanor , Beren was nandorian elf sauron in generali din not existed was Tevildo
One more of correction. The grey elves did not reject the call of the Valar, they accepted it but then turned away from the journey when thingol was lost. By definition it was the dark elves who rejected the call.
The answer depends on a certain point of view: I agree that the dwarves started it by their lust for the Silmaril (and their subsequent actions)… but then King Thingol didn’t handled the situation well and so exasperated the tensions by being haughty. Really, though, it was the curse of the Silmarils at work throughout-so from that perspective it was the fault of the Elves… more specifically, one elf: Fëanor.
@@TrainsFilmedByRussellBynum dwarfs are shit that never faight morgoth in majority of legendariums ithen the major armies of Fankil in Palisor was from dwarths ho faight avars ithen in 4th edge bicose fankil îs live
@@adrianciobanu5856 Dwarves helped a lot the elves against Morgoth. when Morgoth returned after destroying the Trees, The elves of Beleriand received the military help of the Dwarves and they also supply the Noldors with weapons and armors.
Thranduil is, to me at least, the only person with a mildly justified mistrust of them, given the whole Doriath getting sacked and dragged through the floor like it owned the dwarves money.
The third age of Middle Earth would have been so much quieter if everyone didn't keep saying, "Ohh! Shiny!" Guys (and that includes _you_ Isildur), nicking other people's baubles doesn't end well.
Hurin vs mim , was personal & likely would not engender the hate of a people , plus mim was a petty dwarf of no listed house or country except where he lay claim , the elves always looked at the dwarves after awakening as unlovely so had a certain contempt even though the Noldor saw their value , the attempted taking of the Silmarills did it , it even drew them into Feagnors curse … like the would be forgiven …
Good video. They were doomed to always have suspicion but through the first age missteps. They rivalary turned deadly. Dwarves elves showed they could flourish with one another. The creation of nogothrond, menegroth, thingols receiving aid through dwarven crafted weapons to fight morgoth and as you pointed out eregion / Moria. Thingol created this long and unresolved mistrust. “, Melian warned Thingol about sending Beren for a Silmaril, a quest which would eventually lead to Doriath's ruin.” His Mia wife warned him the silmaril would bring down Doriath and he didn’t listen. Chaos, war and one sided story telling kept the grudge long past the fall of doriath.
There must be more than just a quarrel about a piece of jewelry (however beautiful). That is just too far (several thousands of years) in the past, with much more pressing matters (i.e. Sauron, Orcs and whatnot) pushing them towards an alliance... even moreso considering they aren't rivals in terms of territory, quite the opposite (they complement each other in skills and resources).
They’re always going to clash, elves are proud, noble, and intelligent beings, they know they’re the best as well so some are almost a bit stuck up. Dwarves are the opposite, stubborn, won’t accept elves are the superior race. Then there’s their love of treasure. So much more complex than than that when you take the valar etc into consideration and all the groups of elves. Got to love the woodland elves the best though. Legolas and his father are beasts !
The elves were closely attuned to the music of the Ainur, they were masters of Illuvitar's creation. The Dwarves, being a step removed from the creator probably caused a bit of an Uncanny Valley response in the elves. I think there would likely continue to be tension to some degree regardless of the jewelry situation.
I wonder if there was a taint on that necklace since it had lain in a Dragon's horde for so long. We see the Dragon sickness affecting Thorin in the Hobbit and I wonder if both the Elves and Dwarfs both became covetous of it due to the effect?
I have felt that the necklace in The Hobbit movies was hinted at being this jewel. One minor detail - Eru allowed the dwarves to live, as when they were to be destroyed, they quailed, and Eru realised they were not toys but sentient and as such deserved life.
Id be very interested in any videos about the songs in the books, any info from the source on the topic and maybe what melodies or rhythms they were sung in from Tolkien's perspective.
How they get along with it to be depending on the behavioral choices as interior development groups. And how they choose to interact with one another, and he also have to factor in if they're looking at long-term quality of life for the zone or whether or not they are only interested in taking what they can and leaving quickly. Then you have to factor in what are the chores divided amongst the groups to actually give them a reason to actually socialize in a healthy environment and then figure out activities that are co-supported by both or all parties.
I know it's obviously Lord of the Rings art, but the images you use in your thumbnails remind me of the Dark Souls games, very cool. I just been playing them alot lately so their similarities stood out lol.
Hurin the cursed! It does seem plausible these two races could have gotten along better, but it makes a lot of sense that they didn't. The natural differences combined with the curse of the silmarils led them on a dark path, but in the end they did put their differences behind them.
I think the only event that would have changed, without the battle of the thousands caves, is that Thranduil may have not attacked Erebor, besides some details, e.g. that Celeborn would pass through Moria to follow Galadriel.
You have your timeline all out of whack. The back door from Moria to Eregion was created in the early part of the Second Age well after the events of the First Age. Moria and Eregion, later Hollin, had very good relations hence the need for the door and its simple password. Even after the fall of Moria and the relocation of the bulk of Durin's folk to Erebor they maintained good relations with the local elves, this time Thranduil's realm, until Smaug attacked and Thranduil refused to waste elven lives on an unwinnable war.
Elves & dwarves were so different that there was bound to be tension, but I think they would have politely tolerated each other's differences if it wasn't for the Nauglamir. The animosity is the fault of the dwarves (mainly the 2 that survived attacking Thingol) though Thingol could have given them fair pay for their work. Frankly, the killing, theft & lying is surprising from a generally honourable race like the dwarves. Having said that, I think the Silmarils cause corruption in people because they contain such pure power - the light they contain made the elves that visited Valinor in the early ages much harder than later elves. Though the Silmarils are not inherently evil, I believe they have a similar effect to The 1 Ring - just look how Feanor & his sons acted with the oath & Kinslaying & stuff. I don't know if you watch American Dad, but the Silmarils remind me of the golden gem-encrusted turd that appears in several episodes.
But the Silmarils burned the last two sons of Feanor when they tried to hold them because of the evil they had done. The Silmaril didn't burn Beren when he held it. So the Silmarils detested evil.
"I have not heard that it was the fault of the Elves." Really Legolas? You haven't heard of how Celebrimbor was hoodwinked by a guy calling himself the Lord of Gifts leading to the ruin of Eregion and the sealing off of Moria?
@@leonardofaber5823 This is why the doors of Durin were closed, separating the two. Legolas was speaking specifically of the friendship between the Elves of Hollin and the Dwarves of Khazad-dum.
@@TJDious the Dwarves of Moria shut their door foi protect themselves from the incoming War, but never blamed nor hated the Elves because of that. They did not even know about the Rings of Power prior to receiving them from Sauron.
Huron sounds interesting. All so, never a good idea to put out a "like limit" on a video. It really turns people off to a channel. Well it does for me. Anyway, thank you all and hope you all are well.
I don't know what type of job you guys do but most jobs try to upsell their stuff like if you go to fast food would you like that large size etc everybody's just trying to make as much money as they can the more likes it gets the better it helps with the algorithm
seems the Nauglamir had the same attractiveness as the One Ring. Of course in this case because of the curse surrounding the Noldor and the Silmarill. Then again Eru said that his first children and the children of Aule would never truly understand and love each other. Thats what he told Aule in the Silmarillion so I don't think its just an idea? even more highly should we regard the few friendships that actually happened between the two races.
Imagine if Gimili and Legolas were 1 character? You'd have a REALLY short Elf! or a REALLY tall Dwarf without a beard ! Not 2 mention he'd be skinny! B
Gimili and Legolas combined! 🤣😂😭 I was pulling your 🦵 dude! That would hilarious! A "midget-Elf" with a beard! Or the opposite, a "tall-dwarf" without that is clean-shaven!
nauglamir was a catalyst...it was going to happen either way. the dwarves as a race are frumpy, whilst the elves are to aloof. too much ammo to have nothing start.
About your last theory : The tree loving elves and the stone loving dwarves would not devellop a rivalry because they are so different because they are indeed so different. If you take real life as a comparison, the worst hatred between two groups are often people who are quite similar and live nearby. So the elves living in the forest and the dwarves living in the mountain wouldn't meet much and have too few point of comparison to grow a rivalry.
Don't get me wrong....I read The Hobbit Fellowship of The Ring The Two Towers Return of The King As a kid.... Also got all 3 extended versions of the movies....last one goes 4 over 5hrs! I did the same for Hobbit movies and on top of that I saw them on Boxing Day (all of em) So I was 🤪 about everything to do with Lord of The Rings once.... But the current series that they are making....nah
Aule created the dwarves in a secret underground. So when Iluvatar forgave Aule and let the dwarves live he said they would live in the underground but would have to wait until the elves awakened. Plus the 7 rings increased their greed and they mined too deeply and awoke the balrogs which the elves blamed them for.
Probably didn't help that some of the dwarves fought w sauron at the battle of the last alliance against the alliance of elves men and other good folk. Not durins folk but some of the eastern ones
