Very interesting and complete. I was really wondering why the TC was so broken on some cars. The torque/throttle problem is now clearly understandable. Kunos must do something here. It's probably great to have fun. But not realistic at all. As for the tires, we all agree that there is too much grip in the slicks in the wet. Even if the behavior on the wet tires is quite good in my opinion, there is also a little too much grip.
Thank you Mr. Nils!! Now i can gain the 10 seconds i lose pro lap at Spa, i just turn tc off and i will be able to do 2.18s!! Really positively impressed how deep your analysis go.
Oh Finally I found someone as bad as me. I've never met someone who was 10s slower. Or the guy can't keep on track, or he is at least 5s slower. But the 10s 15s pace slower is rare.
I really admire these videos Nils. Well thought out explanations, with possible cause and effects explained. I see these as guides for the player base, but also a nudge to Kunos. For me this is how you give constructive criticism based on data and knowledge. Thank you.
Again, great video, up until now most ACC simracers kept just saying "Oh, I drive 0 TC because... it works!"... now there's a proper explanation for why and how this works... and now I know why I enjoy other sims so much more - sorry to say that, but for me it's unfortunately true. I still like ACC, it's very affordable, in an overall great state, stunning visuals yet you don't need a super beefy PC to run it smoothly. I don't wanna say "ACC is a well polished mass product", that's not true, it's still a hardcore sim not suited for everyone out there who wants to race in a virtual environment. But honestly I think there are better options... that's just me. I would love to see/hear comparisons to other simulation games (yeah, I wrote GAME!!! ) just to see how such mechanics are handled on other sims... although I assume this would require a tremendous effort in terms of time. Great stuff, Nils!👍
I dont see it as negative. iRacing tires are overly temperature sensitive which the pirellis are not. everything about GT3 in real life is designed around rich people with a lack of talent to drive them and spend money. These cars are heavy, sluggish (compared to prototypes and formulas), and thus also lenient to some degree. You dont see a lot of spins despite a lot of gold/bronce drivers, you dont see a lot of tire lockups during braking. we certainly see lap time differences as there's more to extract, but overall they seem pretty fault proof. and again: that is particularly GT3/4 with that pirelli tire. a michelin, dunlop or whatever would behave differently. things dont always have to be exceptionally difficult to be correct. again, these cars are designed with tolerating bad inputs in mind.
@@SimracingPopometer Yes, that's true of course. I'm just often stunned by the fact, that GT3s on other sims are often easier to drive than on ACC... at least for me. Even though: rFactor 2 is more difficult on the limits, can be very punishing when you attack your tyres too aggressively or even if you just have a few lockups... but it feels - in my opinion! - more relatable. AMS2 on the other side is a very slidy sim, at least in terms of GT-cars, Formula cars are different beasts on that... So each sim is different. iRacing in my opinion is too lazy on tyre physics, only if you spin or lockup it matters... yeah well, all sims are different. Thanks for your thoughts, Nils!
I've tested this in automobilista2 after this video and found some interesting behavior and implications. TC is absolutely needed with that kind of accelerator profiles. And the fun part starts here. With the bad/slow TC you lose so much that in some corners once the grip is restored you need to drop from 5th to 3rd end if you don't the engine turns off. And it's not like you lose speed so you gear down. Not at all. You go through the corner you know it's kinda flat but not always you catch a small slide and the engine fucking dies mid corner. Barcelona is my go to if you want to experience the horror. Try amg tc 6-7. That got me thinking what if TC was great and was engaging after the peak grip and turn off fast enough. That would mean you just want to ride the TC all the time to be sure you max the grip all the time. So the pedal to the metal all time and you're micro sliding all the time. Exactly the way ams2 drives on lower tc. So the end result is the opposite less skill and accelerator modulation. And when I say less skill I mean I am 2 sec faster in ams compared to acc. On the updated Spa which has less track and tighter limits in ams. I know it's apples and oranges but the difference is like it's watermelons and potatoes instead. Either way bad tc settings are catastrophic engine cutoffs. Good tc it's a no skill micro slide fest to go fast. Both are way worse outcomes for the average driver. Oh yeah shifting gets very important you now lose way more time every ms you delay the shift. Getting faster exit then usual changes the shift timing out of the corner you miss it a bit and actually lose time which is hilarious :D Overall I'm sure ams didn't help to make a great judgment here but there are downsides to this. Maybe devs are not wrong keeping it the old way.
yeah really nice vid and analysis and all but can we all just appreciate him putting a full on falken drift show! man got moves :D In all actuality, amazing video, thank you!
in the BMW M2 I got more than a second slower after the update using TC2, now I have to use TC1 or 0 to get some good time. TC was being enabled in Curva Grande in Monza, ridiculous.
I think the reason the steering is more vague on center in 1.9 has more to do with side wall flex increasing a lot for 1.9. The grip vs slip ratio example graph gives an idea of how peak grip is achieved once the tires reach their steady state. But the tire sidewalls flex a lot in 1.9, so it takes a lot of time during turn in for the tires to reach that steady state. EDIT: Apparently side wall flex is not higher now, although I believe sidewall flex behavior has changed from 1.8 to 1.9. I believe if you make a graph displaying steering angle / lateral acceleration, you will find that graph to be more steady in 1.8 than 1.9. you may need to do (steering angle)^2/lateral acceleration to avoid noise when steering is nearly straight. Might also be worth gating to a minimum steer angle. The purpose is not the output values but to see the relationship from 1.8 to 1.9.
the latest pirelli tire we have in 1.9 has stiffer sidewalls and thus LESS FLEX. Thats why we also drive lower pressure now as the tire construction itself offers more support.
Id be curious to see that graph still. It definitely feels way more vague on center to me. If we had no sidewall flex we would get near instant turn in response regardless of how much slip angle peak grip is achieved at. I suppose if we are quickly steering into the peak grip region where the grip reaches a peak, then small adjustments wont give as much feedback. But we actually have good feedback at the limit and low feedback on center.
After thinking a bit more about the effect of sidewall flex on steering, it shouldn't be the magnitude of flex that matters, but the lateral response. If the side wall flexes linearly with lateral load and there are no mass or damping effects in the tire it will just feel like you have a slower steering ratio. But if 50% of peak lateral grip resulted in 80% of peak sidewall flex, then the steering is going to be more vague on center. I don't know if this is what's happening, but I do not think peak grip being achieved at higher slip ratios would make the steering much different.
@@jeremymercer5655 I would add that I feel the peak isn't as pronounced as in 1.8. there it was crystal clear where the limit was and now the peak is a bit flatter making differences in grip less clear - maybe that makes sense
A bit sad, that it seems there is less oversight with the compliance to deliver a realistic expierence for ACC. TC 0 is never happening in any GT3 car in real life. Thanks a lot for your in-depth analystics.
I think you can say that about every non professional sim on the market. Is there slowdowns in real-life for instance like in Iracing. Don't know if still the case when comes to fuel saving in iracing lift and coast doesn't work as in real life..rF2 driving quickest by sliding if I remember right, the list goes on for each sim. So yes these oversights are not realistic.
it's always more complicated than good and bad. I know of drivers using a lot of TC override, but also that irl TC is calibrated for each session, due to changing grip levels. modeling endless situations with 10 TC settings is kinda hard. I think the main issue here is that each car is so different (something iracing lacks huge in imo) that each TC needs different values to operate in line with the tire, which means each car needs individual values and testing and work and going through various situations from optimum to thunderstorm wet.
Jumped into ACC recently and just went with my normal AC settings 0TC 0-1ABS. ACC's rating system claimed I was losing control when driving on slip angle and I had to turn on both TC and ABS, to conform to the seemingly subdued driving style ACC has wanted from me.
Combine the throttle map with the weird steer ratio and you have the reason it is so easy to control those exit high slip angle and gain laptime this way. If Kunos was to either change the grip fall off past peak torque, the torque maps or the steer ratio, meta would most likely be very different again.
yeah the steer ratio plays a role in very drastic slides, but for the zone where you want to be when you go fast without TC solely the speed of steering, not the maximum angle is decisive I think - so changing the throttle torque relationship would be a good first step, however it could be overcome with pedal calibrations (i.e. non linearity). Ideally we'd have the TC adjusted to suit the current slip, and maybe have a think about the speed of grip loss post peak.
@@SimracingPopometerwould you recommend to make the throttle curve more aggressively if your pedals/sim have that feature? I find the TC in 1.9 cuts too early too much but at the end of the exit, it doesn't cut enough. It's really bad in the M4. I'm not a really fast driver so I do need TC to help me, but the M4 became super annoying for me in 1.9. I'd need TC 1 at the Apex and then TC 8+ for the last 3rd of the Exit. With the 296, I'm mostly driving TC1=4-5 ; TC2=2. Feels way more balanced than the M4. For corners like the big hairpin at Donington, I switch to 1/2.
dont make yourself worse than you are :) theres also always a learning to make. If you have a lot of trouble especially in late exit situations, it's most likely cause you are stuck in understeer prior to that and that you apex placement and place of first throttle application is much too early in a turn. Aim for late apexes instead, which leads to straighter exits which leads to much less issues with traction and therefor TC. TC8 really is BRUTAL and takes all power out of the car, you shouldnt normally need that at all. not a shameless plug, but comparing to some good drivers data surely tells a big story! on the pedal part: It's not sensitive enough i'd say. the lower part of the pedal does nothing, you have to start at 60% almost to get anything from the engine. so adjust pedal could make sense, but to make it more sensitive initially and spread out the curve over a bigger part of the pedal, whereas now everything is in the last 20-30%
@@SimracingPopometer thanks for the long reply! I'm actually not too bad, but I'm missing the last second to the top drivers and you're definitely onto something with your advice! The differences in Motec became very tiny over the last year compared to GO and CDA. It's mostly micro control of the slip close to the limit, which induces some little instability. And I'm lacking this "Stomp the throttle first, then back off a little before going back to 100% smoothly". And I feel that this is what's causing the rear slip. I don't get that initial rotation from the full throttle stomp, which is the understeer you're talking about. And while I'm smoother on the throttle, I'm at 90-100%, while the faster drivers back off a little bit. And I'm starting to drift in exactly that moment. However in 1.8, I could just set the TC in the M4 to 5-6 and have a nice & smooth exit with little, constant slip. Now I have zero slip at first, then too much slip. Feels like you have to counter the changes from 1.8 to 1.9 via "weird" throttle pushes. Anyway, not so with the 296, which drives very balanced. Lower TC1 just needs better line and micro steering control but it's not un-intuitive (yeah, denglish word here hehe). TC2=2 doesn't make me slower, it's just a safety net to catch the slides, when I already went beyond the fastest slip.
Hello Nils, do you actually have access to the betas of AMS2. There was in the meantime yes diligently further developed and there is on end month another big tire update out. How do you like this new development?
They update so much I can't check every patch. I'll wait for the long development post and then see if something worth checking will be in the game. As of now, dunno :D
I remember thinking to myself "how can they get so many complex things right and this one simple thing (throttle model) so wrong, when I started driving IRL cars. And it took millions of years for someone to mention it in Heusinkveld. I also thought that the torque curve is too peak-y/not linear enough in many games, for road cars, but maybe it's just perception. Anyway, if I see you playing that WRC Whatever I'm walking to Germany and applying torque to your neck
Every time i move from the standard setup even slightly, including just turning down TC1/2 i am instantly SO ass.. even with practice when i get to where i feel close to limit im slower than with standard. Im pretty new to sim racing but still its discouraging and frustrating 😂 need one of those coaching sessions or somethin i guess
it's completely puzzling at the very beginning. in CS:go everyone can kill a guy every now and then. simracing has 0 positive moments at the start. dial it back. stop taking turns as a hero, make sure you're fast on the straight by getting good exits
Amazing video. So, if we had a realistic throttle model, TC2 would be actually useful, no? Also, are you planning to do a video on ABS and if its realistic or not? Some real drivers say that it isnt because of the lack of trailbraking or brake modulation at all. Could it be because of how much grip the tires have, wich means you dont need to trailbrake a lot to rotate the car? Or could it be, that the suspension model it has right now is almost the same as before (1.8), wich gave a lot of mechanical grip to compensate for the lack of slip angle. And because it wasnt changed, it gives more grip to the tires..
if we knew for certain what tc2 does and if it's equal on all cars. maybe! about the other stuff: thats throwing a lot of variables into a single sentence. I simply cant tell what suspension model does to slip. suspension was certainly changed between 1.8 and 1.9 - there's no doubt about that. it might still be that the same or similar setups become fastest, but thats not due to suspension being unchanged. there's always more to it and we can't quite look under the hood to judge. trail braking is as important as ever. whoever doesn't do it, will be slower
Could I experiment with this concept by simply lowering TC a couple steps down, or must I turn TC completely OFF to enable this effect?....I enjoyed today's class! thanks!
sadly for most cars except ferrari 296 (potentially also 488 evo), the TC generally engages too early, so putting it on off will truly let you start playing with the slip. Aston is a positive here where the TC starts engaging quite late and you still get a lively rear without it interfering. But its also aided by the massive turbo lag.
Regarding the torque output and throttle application. Using Map 1 or 2 in the Lambo EVO2 increases the torque output drastically with small throttle inputs. So in this case you could use those maps to counter that issue or for other cars use the pedal software to adjust the output of a specific throttle pressure.
the engine map in the lambo controls the engine brake, the throttle pedal is barely change. you're correct though that in theory a different throttle shape in the software could help create more response, but for that you'd a) need to know what the game exactly does and b) different shape per gear. ideally the game would do it like Niels describes from the start
@@SimracingPopometer good point. But isn‘t the effect very similar? When you sit in the Lambo without gear and hold the throttle at 20%, then switch through the different engine maps and the RPM will change with the same throttle application.
yes, but in neutral the effect will be much more noticable. try it on monza straight maybe with fixed pedal position? would be interesting. I think we're talking 10% shift at max
We already have the FOV police who berate people who don't abide by their less than accurate FOV regulations and the "no-TC" police who look down on anyone who has TC switched on in the F1 games. Of course, we all know that F1 cars do not have TC, so driving with it switched on is not an authentic experience.. But GT3 cars have TC, so turning it off is also not an authentic experience. In fact, turning it off, the going out and setting a alien-like lap time is the very definition of an "exploit". So now we need a new police force to insult guys who are taking advantage of the exploit and setting crazy-fast lap times.
apart from the Audi, which gains a bit more without TC, were talking 1-2 tenths in some cars. Real cars have tc override. and it's used. maybe not by 50 year old bronze drivers. keep in mind that irl GT3 is not a talent sport. it's a rich people sport. I wouldn't be as black and white with TC being off equalling lack of realism. there might be something to investigate, but I wouldn't just say right or wrong
Could we please have a one off payment option for Popometer? I really hate subscriptions, it makes looking after banking details so bloomin time consuming!
I'm sure they are aware. but development schedule won't always allow to address more fundamental things. any tiny change would have huge side effects that all need testing too. so rather live with known side effects than creating new unknowns
Mr. Nils, as a smart guy i would like to ask your opinion this spreading 0 compression max rebound damper thing. Is this again about reaching minimum ride height? Is it only me who find it ridiculous as a stupid engineer trying to stand on earth with both legs, or it is actually ridiculous?
its just the end of the available range of the damper. I ultimately dont know mate :D I'd like it to matter more, but seems like theres a flaw in the supension currently that just favors the softest bump and hardest rebound. im sure its not to kunos' liking too :) lets wait and see!
Thank you for the response, much appreciated! We'll see then, they suspiciously show aggressive "sausage" driving in the GT2 trailers, so i have the feeling they are cooking something in that area.
I don't think the complaint about Niels' model applies. Sure, this model isn't correct for classic cars with physical throttle linkages. But modern cars with electronic throttle bodies use a very similar mapping to the one that is used in sims.
Mh, not unreasonable. I remember though that this was certainly not the case for the Lambo ST EVO I drove 3 years ago :D I'll ask around if I can get someone to confirm this - thanks!
@@SimracingPopometer It would be nice to have a little more insight in how this is done exactly in racecars. My experience with automatic throttle bodies is with the cheapest VAG products, not one of the most expensive of course. And it would be nice to see if there are any specific solutions to Bosch Motorsports systems in particular.
I have not seen data for modern racing cars for this. Have you? Could be right, but I doubt it is a 'fast' setup because instead of having a full pedal to use, you only have 25% of pedal in most cases, so for optimizing laptime, I don't think anyone would program their racing ECU this way. Road cars can be very different I would imagine.
i always felt more comfortable with driving with TC on even if its just TC2 or 3 instead of TC off, ACC threw me off in patch 1.9 so much that i didnt enjoy it anymore so i stopped playing it, even though i still think its a good sim IF Kunos would do something good for their game, i did have lots of fun in 1.7 and at start of 1.9 but not anymore sadly
currently all cares are driven without TC to be fastest (apart from the ferraris potentially). as i said, its not an isolated issue with the audi - it might be easiest there due to low torque output and very slow engine response, but also bmw, aston, merc, lambo, porsche - are all quickest without TC over a single lap, so im pretty certain the bentley will be too
It's always a bit more complicated than good or bad most certainly. In a sim you likely have only have one model for several cars while in reality they're a bit different. again wouldn't be so black and white. there might be drivers, teams, tracks or situations where no TC might be better too. ACC is just a snapshot of a potential real situation while irl the potential situations are vast. Sims develop, developers learn and models improve, available information changes and things evolve over time
Hallo Nils leider etwas verspätet dein Video genossen. Bedeutet es das ein lineares Gaspedal schlechter ist als ein Progressives Gaspedal wenn man TC Off fährt. Gruss Micha
Moin! Das ist ein Ein Zusammenspiel mehrerer Faktoren: - Grip - Slip Toleranz des Reifens - Nervosität des Setups/Autos - ... Das Ziel ist aber immer das gleiche: Immer Kontrolle zu haben. Man braucht kein progressives Pedal wenn es sehr viel grip gibt und das Auto bei wenig Gas sowieso nicht anspricht. Dann ist es sogar eher nachteilig, weil sich das komplette Drehmoment nur innerhalb der oberen 20% des Pedals steuern lässt und damit Präzision schwierig ist. Bei anderen Autos, die unten rum sehr sensibel sind, weil wenig Grip oder scharfes Setup und z.B sofort viel Drehmoment anliegt, da könnte man es mit einem progressiven Pedal etwas weniger sensibel machen. Für den Fahrer ist es denke ich wichtig ein lineares Gefühl zu haben, das heißt aber nicht, dass ein lineares Pedalprofil auch einen linearen Output vom Motor bedeutet. Es kommt also immer darauf an ;)
I consider tc a band aid for poor setup, and the less tc the better the setup is. And proper brake bias is a better form of abs, and I think using good brake bias, and as little abs as possible helps. Regular ac used to benefit from no tc in some of the gt cars for me, years ago
It is so annoying since 1.9 i have no fun and no Feeling/Trust in the GT3s Cars since then. I dont and wont understand the weird Drift Angle. The Car always has weird feeling of Grip like it drives on Ice. I go on the Power and the Car is like ''YEAH LETS MAKE THIS RACE CAR TO A DRIFT CAR AND SCORE SOME COMBO POINTS DRIFITING THE NEXT FEW CORNERS LIKE I DONT HAVE TONS OF DOWNFORCE AND SLICK TIRES'' It is just fckn annoying. I pretty much dont touch the GT3 Cars since 1.9 -The Grip is weird/ not there in Situations where it should be -The Car always rotates way too much and starts to drift and loses even more Grip -Downforce and Slick Tires and basically non existent in 1.9 For me and A LOT of other Guys (i read a lot of Comments aswell in the Nordschleife Trailer from ACC, where a lot of People complain about the Game and about the same Issues) the 1.9 Update especially on GT3s feel completely wrong. Like there are huge Mistakes made. And i still wonder why you Aliens dont adress this more. Because would it fix those Problems if they make the TC usable/mandatory again? Or the Throttel Inputs with its Torque correctly and such? I had until 1.9 like i guess 3000h of driving with the AMG GT3 (old and new one combined) And i do had Problems to adapt to the Evo, but i got pretty confident and fast with it over Time and at the End i had no Problems. Now, after 3000h of Driving Time with the Car it feels not like an AMG anymore. It feels completely wrong and foreign. The Steering got way more sensitive. Almost like the Porsche where you just needed to steer like 1 Degree and the Car immediately was steering like a Maniac in that Direction. But the Cars Balance and the Things i said above are now a big Problem. I really dont get why People actually find this 1.9 Update (apart from those Problems you mentioned) enjoyable AND acceptable. For me it is not! I would rather have 1.8 back. There i knew what the Cars were doing even with the buggy Dampers and no Chance to go over specific Bumps/ Curbs without dying. In 1.8 the Drift Mode wasnt enabled and you actually could drive around a Track and Corner without losing Grip or start to Drift every fckn time...Because Grip, Slick Tires and Downforce actually existed there.. In my humble non Alien Opinion the Slip-/ DRIFTangle is way too much or at least something else is wrong like the Tires cannot make it feel like you actually have a grippy Car. I drove Waktins Glen yesterday on LFM Practice Server and i was laughing so hard because i just tested the Audi Evo2 and the Aston and just wanted to have a chill little ''Track Day'' so just driving around and enjoying the Track/ Car.... I lost both Cars in weird Situations where i never lost them. You go through a Corner and either have no Grip at all or you do but when you touch the Throttle the Car is in Tokyo Drift Mode and for that Moment they magically changed the Slicks to Ice Tires and quickly dismount the Wing.... so the Car was drifting like a Maniac out of the Corners and into the Wall. One Thing i noticed is that when this happens and i want to counter steer and take back control of the Car i dont need to do it on my own. When i have my Hands on my Wheel and wanted to catch the Car in those Situations it gets most of the Times worse. BUT when i take away my Hands and let the Car do its Thing it calms down after some ADHD Attack and it actually drives straight again... Well but that i can only do when i am on my own :D Because in a Race i wouldnt take my Hands off my Wheel just to make sure the Car gets stable again because i am not able to control where the Car is going .... Another Problem is with my Fanatec Wheel Base... since 1.9 the Game seems to have more FFB.. which is fine ... but to not Clip the entire Time i have to reduce my FFB of the Wheel so much i have even less FFB than 1.8 and pretty much no FFB anymore because it became so light ... For Example going through Eau Rouge .. with GT3 Car and with GT4 Cars my FFB is clipping the entire Time ... going up the Hill (Turn 2) in Watkins Glen aswell... The FFB Bar is red all the Time and i have no Feeling over the Car... Yet the FFB is set lighter than ever before... when i go down even more i can drive with a Game Pad ;) WTF!? All in all 1.9 is a shame for GT3s in the Game
so in short, I think we want to change your wheel settings, and you need to stop driving esports setups. the cars have tons of grip, so much that we need to make the setups very aggressive to reach the limit and now we're faster than in 1.8. what you're complaining about is how grip is lost, gained and indicated (Ffb, probably settings issue).
Im not even driving e sports Setups ^^ I just go with Stanadard Setups and just tweak them a tiny bit. Thats how i did it always and never had a Problem. @@SimracingPopometer
Seeing all these videos and how the dlc feels unfinished makes me think that they are in the process of dropping support and simply focusing on AC2 to avoid having to deal with all those little and small problems in and with ACC
don't think so. the key is not having to rotate as much on power, which is when TC intervention is also the biggest. so when you have huge tc interaction, then you know you're driving wrong currently. You need straighter exits, late apexes and youll have less TC engagement, whcih means you would get away with less or no TC
