Washing and screening the old ballast just takes too much time versus dumping new ballast, we don’t recycle old ballast as well, the only time old ballast gets screened and reused is when we get the LORAM shoulder ballast cleaner and that’s about it.
For those of you who are reading this pinned comment. Jason works for BNSF Railway. He is a very knowledgeable about RR track work, I highly respect his opinions and his expertise on the RR. A few other folks who work for other Class1's also have written in with the same thoughts, they don't clean ballast either, except like Jason said, when the Loram cleaners come in. Thank you Jason for sharing with us about what you guys do.
❤ This channel should have been around when I was a youngster. Back when there were only a half dozen or so terrestrial TV channels. 😉 Though I’m now a retired old journeyman electrician (& volunteer firefighter/paramedic) and haven’t even traveled by rail (more than just the occasional railway museum exhibition trips), I have always loved trains and railroads. Dave is amazing !! He actually gives us a view behind the scenes view!!
So many people only see what's an inch in front of them. You very politely told everyone that there is so much more to it than the layman knows. Another great video! Thank you!
Thank you for the kind words trainman. I've found education of the public seems to be a big part of the videos. And I like that. I'm constantly learning new things about the RR myself, plus with the tens of thousands of comments I get, there are a ton of questions and comments, so I'm doing research to find accurate answers for folks, so I'm learning from that stuff too. And it's fun, most folks don't really realize what all goes on behind the scenes on track and rolling stock maintenance to keep trains running. Thank you for taking the time to pay us a visit and check out the video. May you have a most blessed day my friend.
That was very well explained Dave. When there is a big track relaying job the old ballast we call dross gets loaded into spoil wagons using an excavator, it then gets dumped because of the same problems you have. There are some track machines that dig out and sift the ballast then return it onto the track but only where it is not too contaminated so even if you could get one of those in it would not help on your line. Your old ballast will probably be overgrown before long and the trackside look just as green it was before
Thank you very much cedarcam for the very nice comment, Always I enjoy hearing from you and your sharing how you guys do things. Sure wish we had a better way that was cost effective tho.
There is a mobile method for cleaning ballast but not cleaning in the way you describe. Plus after reading the wiki on it, I see that new ballast is ultimately needed because old ballast becomes rounded and other things happen to it necessitating the need for new fresh ballast. Once again, many of the hidden things we never think about in regard to the complexity of rail. Makes me respect your job that much more. (And BTW; How do we send you Christmas presents? I know I know, I'm Jewish and all that.. I don't celebrate Christmas, but I do get things for other people that do. You should get a P.O box because you're becoming important with all your youtube fame.) 😂🤣 Here is a copy and paste from wiki. "Over time, ballast becomes worn, and loses its angularity, becoming rounded. This hinders the tessellation of pieces of ballast with one another, and thus reduces its effectiveness. Fine pieces of granite, like sand, are also created by attrition, known simply as "fines". Combined with water in the ballast, these fines stick together, making the ballast like a lump of concrete. This hinders both track drainage and the flexibility of the ballast to constrain the track as it moves under traffic. Ballast cleaning removes this worn ballast, screens it and replaces the "dirty" worn ballast with fresh ballast. The advantage of ballast cleaning is that it can be done by an on-track machine without removing the rail and sleepers, and it is therefore cheaper than a total excavation."
Yes ballast does have a life. It needs to be sharp to hold the greatest resistance against the tie. Trains and tamping wear the sharp edges off. Think hitting a steel chisel against a stone and you'll get what happens every time I tamp. Then those chips and fines off the ballast contribute to more fines in the ballast and more plugging up action. Once stones get rounded, think putting a board on roller bearings, it's not very stable and track can slide easily. Also much and coal in the ballast when it gets wet acts like a lubricant causing sliding action to happen more easily. Thanks for the present offer David, just send me a lump of coal.... :-) Really appreciate your watching and writing in my friend.
As I understand it the irregular sharp edge shape of the original ballast stones is key to the integrity of the support they provide. The stones lock together and can take weight without shifting. Over time the edges become rounded and move more easily. Eventually you have rounded ballast that is more like ball bearings and offers little structural integrity. Add coal dust, oil and other contaminants and you have a very unstable base for rails. I am not a railway worker, I am IT in a University (Wollongong, NSW, Australia) that has a railroad research team and on my occasional visit to their workshop this is what I have picked up. Correct me if I am misinformed. Thank you for your channel Dave, you have taught me more about practical railroading than any University could. Yes, I am a railfan and am about 3/4 the way through my goal of travelling all the long distance passenger routes of AMTRAK in the US. Keep making the great videos.
You my friend are absolutely correct! Sharp edges on the ballast stones are key to providing much needed resistance to the ties in order to keep track from sliding or shifting. Edges on ballast can become rounded via train forces and most specially via tamping. Tamping rounds off the edges. Ballast has a life and on some basis needs replacing with new sharper edged stones. So accurate you have said about rounded ballast being unstable for track integrity. Coal fines when dry are not a bad ballast, however when they get wet from rain, that means they get mushy and want to act like lubrication with no resistance to ties which will want to slide ties and above rails. Just an awesome comment you have sent in. I certainly wish for you the very best in your future. I appreciate a thinking man like you are. your very kind words about me teaching you touched my heart. I'm always here if I can provide any future assistance to you my friend.
@@ccrx6700 Hi Dave, I was surprised to hear that tamping is a major rounding factor, I had assumed that (other than correcting track geometry) its purpose would be to expose fresh edges and reseat the stones. You live and you learn. That's why I like your channel. Practical is different from theory. Next trip (February) I am going to Japan and will check out how they do railroading. I only have The Empire Builder to go before I complete my AMTRAK tour and I hope to ride it in November 2023. NB: I knew it was serious when in March 2020 they said the Southwestern Chief would be on time into Chicago. An AMTRAK train on time?? Unheard of. But freight rail had died of by this time. Keep on railroading. Rodger (I am 62 yo)
I guess you don't wash the ballast because you don't want to spend ten dollars to save a dime! Many things were saved in the past when it was affordable to repair or rebuild, but costs no longer permit it. Thank you for sharing Dave!
You pretty much hit the nail on the head Raymond. If it was cost effective we would be doing it. Every business likes to save money. Always great to have you visit with me my friend.
Before I started watching this channel, I always thought of railroad tracks as being super low maintenance. I.e. once installed, they are good for 30-50 years before replacing the ties. I had no idea the level of work that it takes to keep a track properly ballasted and maintained.
All RR's have their own unique problems Jeff. Ours has a lot of maintenance issues due to leaky hopper car doors along with 16 miles of jointed track having 70 curves well over half of which are 5 or more degrees. And we only have 2 track people to try and keep up. Yes we have an insane amount of track maintenance, not all RR's are like this, but still some have worse problems to deal with. And we don't have the budget a big RR like BNSF has either. Thanks for watching the video today and writing in my friend.
The cost per gondola car with 115 tons would cost a little over 2k. Figuring that out, it is wise to keep doing what your company has been doing. Great video Mr. Dave!
Thanks Valerie for the nice comment. Yep if it was cost effective to clean this stuff we would be doing it. Always great to have you visit with me Mrs. Bassett.... :-)
I don't remember what they did with the water from the wash plant when I was a kid. But your right about all the permits of today and all the hoops you would have to jump thru just to wash some rock. So keep up the good work and stay safe out there.
Things are a lot different now than they were before with all the environmental regulations, at least in the coal industry they are. But that's not always a bad thing. Coal mines in the past around here got away with a lot of environmental contamination. Really appreciate your taking the time to watch and write in tonight my friend.
Thank you Kevin for saying that. You are right. We very much appreciate your taking the time to tune in and watch. May you have a most blessed day my friend.
Thank you MTH for the kind words. Been running this machine a time or two. Really appreciate your taking the time to watch and write in my friend. Running an excavator is fun!
That makes a lot of sense. It’s a lot of time, money and effort that you don’t have. And since your railroad is kind of a short line (not a heavily used line running a couple hundred or more trains a day like a main UP / BNSF / CSX line). For the amount of track that you guys have, it’s more time and cost effective to scoop and dump then throw down new ballast. We do the same (sort of) on our light rail system, we operate on a tight budget and a ballast cleaning system would definitely not make the vote on to the budget. Thank you for sharing, and we super appreciate you track guys!
Your certainly welcome Andy. Very much appreciate your nice comment and for watching today my friend. I understand full well tight budgets, we just have the money or man power or time like a big RR does.
Dave, you’re a rare bird! You love your job! I’ve been doing the same job for 33 years and I tell my kids don’t get stuck in a job that you hate, like I have.
I give you credit for sticking it out, I understand how it's like to go to a job that you don't like. Back when I was on the river here, I had much the same feeling. RR made all the difference when I got that job full time. Really appreciate your taking the time to watch and write in my friend.
I subbed to this channel a long time ago - because of Dave and his personality. I do not watch it because of a liking to coal. I understand why coal is still important in power generation. I get that. But when the mines shut down ~ the land is pretty much done, Ballast included. It's a video about Dave. That's why!
I love your videos,,,I'm a retired excavator operator over 40 years/low boy driver,,,just wondering instead throwing the old blast way off to the side,add to the shoulder your excavator is riding on to widen it??? to make it a little more room for you & other crews???,just wondering???,I really enjoy what you do!!!
Thanks for writing in Raymond, glad you enjoyed. Running excavator is fun, but I sure could use a bigger one! Yes it does widen the area I have to crawl over at times since some of our banks are fairly close to the track. Really appreciate your taking the time to tune in and watch the show my friend.
Thanks for the great video my friend. God bless and keep on truckin! Hope this comment finds you in good spirits and health bro. We love you. Keep up that positive attitude, it’s infectious and shows these young people how things in life can be if you keep a positive attitude about life.
Thank you very much Truth Seeking for the really nice comment. We certainly appreciate your taking the time to watch and write in my friend. I was taught, the energy you give off in life is the energy you get back. That has served me well.
Thank you so much Rick for the kind words. It's always a good night when you come to visit with me my friend. Really appreciate all your great support of the channel.
Hey Dave! First of all thxs for the nice compliment on my speed restrictions.. I sure enjoy your videos.. I learn alot from you and it seems like their is always sum problem that creeps up on you guys..Take care.. DD. 😜🤗
Thank you so much Dave for the very nice comment. I learn from you as well. your videos are way cool, wish I had more time to watch some of the older ones. All RR;s have their own unique set of problems, and we as railroaders deal with them as we go. I'm sure you can relate to that! your a good man and I'm so glad I found your channel. I love to learn the kind of things you go over. For anyone reading this who may like to view Dave's channel, he is a retired UP engineer and really shares some cool stuff you don't find out anywhere else: ru-vid.com/show-UCMMLu3eVd80U5xzNgtS5t7Q
I do remember that comment now, but you're not the only one, I've been getting that question for over 2 years now. Bout time I got it answered.... LOL Thanks my friend for visiting with me today.
That was a very nice skeletonizing of track in that area Dave. I got yelled at when I first started on the RR to make sure that absolutely no mud and dirt get thrown back into the track after surfacing a rail joint or section. Enjoyed watching and Have a nice upcoming weekend.
Thank you very much Steve. We try to keep as much old stuff out as we can. My former boss used to yell at me when I was loading new ballast when I dug down too deep and got fines in the loader bucket. So don't feel bad about being yelled at... Always great to have you show up and take in the show my good friend.
Thank you very much Russell. Really appreciate your watching today my friend. You may be interested to know that coal has been used as a fertilizer, it increases soil organic matter. Read this video description about coal as a fertilizer if you would like to find out more about it.
Appreciate the detailed and thoughtful discussion. Makes sense for a spur line to a limited-lifetime mine. Not convinced that re-use can't be done on mainlines, where there isn't coal mixed in with the ballast and the tracks will be kept into the far future and new ballast is needed into the far future, as well.
Thank you Kent for the nice comment and for watching the video today. I cannot speak for any other RR, every RR has it's own unique set of problems and solutions to them. We do have issues that other RR's don't and deal with them with what we have available, time, money, machines and man power. Really appreciate your dropping by and taking in the video today, hope you will continue to watch our shows in the future my friend.
@@ccrx6700 I'm always impressed by the quality and quantity of educational content on RU-vid. I can't even remember the last time I watched TV, since it's much more interesting to watch someone explain the cost-benefit analysis of railroad ballast replacement versus reuse.
It is useful to push the ballast down the side of the embankment as it would help to support the embankment. It is also useful for the drainage of the embankment also. There are certainly difficulties in removing it as you said. Thank you so much for helping the people get a greater understanding of what is involved in these things.
Thank you John for your very nice comment. It's always a pleasure to hear from you and we really appreciate all the great support you have given the channel my friend.
Thanks for this video! The old ballast with coal + mud contaminants spread out beside the track raises no hackles: so that's where it'll go, left to further disposition by natural processes.
Your welcome Robin, coal fines along the track actually are good for the soil increasing soil organic matter. If you would like to find out more about coal being used as a fertilizer, read this video's description. Really appreciate your tuning in and watching my friend.
I figured several would pick up on that pronunciation Maria. it's okay if you make fun of me... :-) I always made fun of my cousins from Baltimore who called water, wooter. Really thank you for paying me a visit tonight and watching my friend.
Well thank you very much Alyssa. What a nice thing to say. Really appreciate your having you with us and for your wonderful support of the channel my friend.
We have a railroad basically in our backyard, when they went through town replacing ballast, also added and reconfigured some rail, they let whoever had the means, take the old ballast for driveways, backfill, whatever the individual need was, it was free to come move it out of their way, win win for all
That does sound like a great way for that company to save money and eliminate a problem Cordell. Wish we had a better way to do things like that. With things as they are now, the company is not wanting anyone on the property that is not an employee because of liability issues. We live now in a different age. Really appreciate your sharing and for watching the video my friend.
They do have a track undercutting machine. It removes ballast from under the track, washes it and relays it all simultaneously. Down side to that is you need to be connected to the national rail network in order to get it on your track. In your case you're doing the most productive methods available for your situation. Great video and thanks for sharing Dave.
Your right Zach. Not much else we can do. Sure wish we could get one of those monster machines in here tho! That would make for a cool video too! Always great to have you visit with us my good friend.
Spot on, No matter how accurate you numbers are, It's just cost prohibited. Especially coal dust, makes it even worse. Lets not forget, DEQ. Forget it folks.
Well it is that guy name Dave.fantastic railroad man. This man has been doing this job for very long time. Like every thing else it takes the green stuff. Then build road, that will take dump truck or larger. If they train out where would they dump this junk. Not Worth the darn headache.
@@ccrx6700 you know it great to be able to tease a little. It. You most like have forgotten more than the new guys coming on board even know. Now that is railroading. Michael
Used ballast placed to the side is also beneficial for maintaining any service road along the tracks as if has fines and mud blended in keeping the road stable. Can scrape excess with a bucket and relocate where needed instead of bringing in new material. Old ballast reduces the brush growth near the tracks which can become a maintenance issue or fire hazard in the future. Great job explaining the many details and requirements for a wash plant. Filtration of the water for re-use or more so for discharge by permit would also be significant.
Thanks for writing in with the great comment NarnianRailway. We really appreciate your checking out the video today my friend. Interesting new development I just learned about today. Baily Mine that borders our mine has come up with a way to use the coal fines left in slurry ponds to fuel an electric power generating station. They are in the beginning stages of developing that plant. It will be a zero emissions plant as they have also come up with a way to have all the carbon dioxide emissions pumped back into abandoned areas of their mine where it will not be able to pollute the atmosphere. washingtonish.com/pennsylvania-mining-complex/
@@ccrx6700 Use of coal fines slurry has been a long in development and research. Back in the 90s Usibelli Coal Mine in central Alaska was working with the Healy Power Plant to develop using coal slurry. The coal was low grade and lots dust so a good candidate but experienced technical issues. Good to know industry has since developed better technology and with CO2 capture. Also Renova power plant in Cambria County has been using waste and dumped coal from PA's Abandoned Mine Site reclamation projects to generate power as well. My township in Blair County is constructing a trail and one property was an old firebox clean out dump for PRR locomotives. The surface coal and cinders were to be sent there for burning. Our rails to trail project partially follows an old service road. The old streetcar route is now owned by First Energy and is on the opposite side of the NS mainline as the proposed trail. LOL
When most railroads left our rural area and they tore up the tracks, much ballast was left behind. Somehow ( haha) it found its way into many private driveways.
Thanks Ron for the nice comment. Glad you enjoyed. End of life for a slurry pond means draining the water off and taking it to a very high priced treatment facility. Then they push clay over the left over coal and mud in the pond, then dirt on top, then seed it down. Always great to have you visit with me my friend.
Interesting stuff. I ordered a dump truck worth of new ballast as fill for the low spot in my property before pouring my shop slab. Great stuff for that of course as it drains beautifully. I topped some of the exposed ballast with milled asphalt, also good stuff. If ya need to fill in anywhere on your property it's tough to beat and doesn't wash away on any reasonable terrain. Ballast is inert so no harm leaving it about. Too bad it's not being dumped on my acreage because I'd be all over renting a dozer.
Well if you had a dump truck and could come get it, I'd much rather give it to someone who could use it CommOut. #3 stone makes an excellent base and they use the ballast around here for base in all the natural gas well access roads. Thanks so much for stopping by and checking out the video on why we don't reclaim ballast my friend.
Great video Dave! This is one of those questions I have had forever! I never even thought of removing the ballast to another location, I just wondered why you didn't run one of those Lorem ballast washers? I don't know how well they work or if you can even contract them out, but I've seen several videos of them and always wondered if they would work on that heavy coal dust you guys have there.
The plant and crew costs would be astronomical for a small-scale railroad like this. Forget about paying for a slurry pond to be lined, how about trying to find payment options for all of the manpower and equipment costs that would be required just to run the Loram ballast machine? It's not as simple as it looks on the videos, the reason the large railroads can afford it is because they have a lot of infrastructure to maintain, and a large-scale operation makes sense for them. For a tiny short line railroad like this one, it would like using an elephant to transport a mouse 30 miles.
Thanks Planet Mojo, glad you enjoyed the show. Would love to have one of those monster cleaners in here if we could only get it here, also a rail grinder, but being we don't interchange with anybody it's impossible to truck that huge stuff in. But sure would make for some really cool videos if we could get one! Always great to have you visit with me my friend.
Can't beat the price for new ballast. Dumping the old dirty ballast down the embankment helps to reinforce and stabilize the existing roadbed. You make your right of way look neat and clean.
Thanks Gary for the nice comment. Also which I did not explain in the video, after so many comments, sure wish I had. Coal is actually being used as a fertilizer. So in effect what I'm doing by spreading the coal fines out along the ROW is increasing the organic matter of the soil. You can read more about coal as a fertilizer in this video's description. What the EPA has conniption fits about is when those coal fines may have a chance of getting into a nearby stream. So I do not do this if there would be a possibility of coal fines leaching into streams. that would be a big fine for the company if EPA found out. Thanks for watching and writing in my good friend.
Yeah definitely seems like a night mare to even bother with. Heck just let the locals come fill up their pickups and use it in their driveways. Then you can say tour recycling.. Great talk session today Dave.
If it was cost effective to clean and reuse it we would Pappy. I hear you on the come and get it, but just like out used ties, now you got untrained people coming on the property and that creates a liability issue the company does not want to deal with. We used to have tons of people come and get whatever used ties they wanted, saved big bucks on dumpster fees, but things change. Lot's of people would love to have this used ballast and could put it to good use, but just can't do it. The liability issue is one of the big reasons major RR's have police and keep you off the property. Thanks so much my good friend for stopping by and watching.
Well thank you so very much Cecil for the kind words. Really glad you are having a good time with us. We do appreciate all your nice comments and the support you give to the channel my friend.
Hello Dave, Great video and explaination of what it would take to reclaim the used ballast! As a side note, having lived in the Boston area all my life, I really enjoyed hearing your pronuciation of the word "warsh"! We always get kidded for dropping the "r" in many words, so it was nice to see where all of our unused "r"s have gone! Haha! Stay safe!
LOL, yep I got yelled at a couple times already and not pronouncing wash instead of warsh. But it's okay. I always made fun of my Baltimore cousins who called water, wooter. Thanks so much for stopping by and taking in the video my friend.
Thanks Lewis. EPA is not that much concerned about coal fines laying on the ground as I am doing, they are really concerned about when those fines gets in streams. So I am very careful not to do this when there could be a possibility of the coal washing into a stream. Also coal is used as a fertilizer so what I am actually doing by spreading this out along the ROW is increasing the organic matter of the soil it lays on. More about coal as a fertilizer is in this videos description if you would like to read it sometime. Always great to have you come and visit with me my friend.
We used to have a manual dump car way back, this one is so much nicer now with air over hydraulics. No fun at all running alongside a moving car opening and closing doors with a lining bar. Really appreciate your dropping by and taking in the video my good friend.
Looking good Dave on the cribbing and great explanation of why the dirty ballest isn't reclaimed. But it does work good for shoulder side roads 😄. Picking out the bigger stones BY HAND ✋ from a pile by a group of people would answer alot of questions and get old real quick for the topic. It does boil down to time and material and costs $. BTW, track looks good for 70 even if it's just a few hundred feet 😉. Richard Bause
Your right Richard, perfect for a side road. Plus the coal fines actually help to increase soil organic matter. Coal is a decent fertilizer and if you'd like to find out more about that, read this video's description. Really appreciate your dropping by and checking things out my friend.
Thanks Dave for this video! I too have wondered why they don't clean and reuse railroad ballast! Too bad it's not economic and environmentally feasible to clean it !
Your very welcome Robert. Had gotten a lot of questions in the past on the subject so now instead of writing out so many answers can just point them to a link to watch. Always a pleasure to have you visit with us my friend.
Your welcome Rick I understand it is a shame, have long said wish there was an economic and feasible way to reclaim this old stuff. Really appreciate your taking the time to watch and write in tonight my friend.
Richard Austin: Exactly what I was thinking. And maybe having it on the upside would help prevent erosion in some way???? Prevent washing mud down to the track? Or not......... Know nothing about maintaining RR. Am a retired engineer, but not the RR kind!!
Thanks Richard. It does clean up the ROW but with those coal fines in there, that actually helps increase the soil organic matter. Coal is used as a fertilizer and if you would like to find out more about that, read this video's description. Really appreciate your visiting with us and watching my friend.
Hi Dave! Another reason they just dump the ballast is probably a tax write off...business expense. Just a thought... Have a great day, sir! And greetings from Southern Michigan.
Buying new ballast is certainly a tax write off John, never gave that a thought. Old ballast however is not a depreciable item. Certainly do appreciate your dropping by and checking out the video my good man.
From past episodes, the ballast is limestone which is softer than basalt typically used. Vibration can cause rounding of the crushed rock, reducing the ability to "lock" the ballast into a solid foundation. New ballast stacks into piles with steeper sides, this is due to the sharp edges. Called angle of repose, it is an easily measured quality. Yes, the ballast "wears out". Beach sand is often very round grains that flows like water when dry. Decomposed granite (grus) is mostly sharp quartz grains and has a high angle of repose. This quality is important to construct a stable foundation as it spreads point loads faster, requiring much less ballast.
Your absolutely right Keith. Ballast has a life and the trains along with tamping rounds off those sharp edges on the ballast. Sharp edges lock into the ties and create enough resistance to keep track from sliding. Rounded ballast is like having a track on roller bearings. Wet coal and mud also act like a lubricant and can cause track sliding/shifting. We priced granite many years ago which wears significantly less than the limestone we use, however the cost per ton was like 60 bucks 10 years ago,, can't imagine what it would be now. Our cost is 18 for limestone. NS uses granite here but they have their own unit trains to deliver it. Really appreciate your watching and writing in my friend.
It sure would be ocsrc. I've said that from the very beginning in1977 they needed a road along the track, but with some of the high fills it would have taken a lot more money to build. Really appreciate your visiting with me and watching my friend.
In some ways, the idea of washing ballast reminds me of dry cleaning. Dry cleaners used to be common in cities and towns and then the regulations and permitting came to bear and it became incredibly expensive to comply. It seems that this is also the case with used ballast - economic feasibility isn't going to happen :)
Indeed I remember quite a few dry cleaners and when it came time to close shop especially if the property was being sold for another purpose they were on the hook for digging out the contaminated soil around the building usually from the Benzene found in cleaning fluid
What we need is some giant Maytag washing machines Brian! LOL But then we'd have to hire a Maytag repairman who would be lonely all the time.... Really appreciate your tuning in and watching the video today my friend.
EPA OR pennsy department environment conservation, has so many regulations regarding settling ponds, just like N.Y. STATE , then the waste solids can be classed as regulated materials dependent upon the metals or other components. that come out in the TLCP test for leachable components . anything related to waste is always so very expensive! great video, the stone you pile up, the upper layer eventually gets clean just from the rain. but it is better to start with new ballast, at $18/ton you probably get a volume discount, and your Co. leverages suppliers the best they can to save on supplies. have a great one Dave and be safe out there! say hi to the misses !
Thanks Barry for taking the time to drop by and take in the video my good man. your so right about having all the regulations! it's unreal. When the Obama administration was in our company had to hire a couple of people just to keep up with all the regs they put out.
when ever a radical government is in power, they believe, “if it is feel good legislation, does not matter if it is feasible in the real world “ that is what kill’s businesses, high regulations, high taxes & fees etc. It was quite interesting that the replacement of the prime mover was better then rebuilding part of the engine. as always thank you for all your wonderful replies , and insight to actual railroading on a short line. be safe, stay healthy and have a great day!😀🐱
Right! A LORAM or other piece of equipment would, I think, be cost prohibitive. And, coal and ballast are naturally-occurring materials. The spread out may look ugly, but as long as the deposits don't interfere with the natural movement of water, nature back to nature seems like an efficient way of handling the issue. Keep 'em coming, Dave!
Would be nice if we had an interchange and could get some of that big stuff in here Paul. Your right coal is made from plants over millions of years time. Coal is actually used as a fertilizer. it increases soil organic matter. So by spreading coal along the ROW I'm actually fertilizing the soil. Read this video's description for more about coal as a fertilizer. What I don't do is spread the coal fines out anywhere it could have the possibility of getting into a stream. That is an EPA no no and would get the company fined. Thanks for watching the video today my good man
Thanks for watching the video today. Coal is used as an organic fertilizer so what I am actually doing is increasing the organic matter of the soil in the areas where I put the used ballast along the right of way. Read more about coal as a fertilizer in this video's description. Was tested by 3 major US universities including the ag department at Penn State. What I cannot do is put the coal fines anywhere it may leach into a nearby stream. The EPA has conniption fits about that but they don't care about what I'm doing.
How big of an easement does the railroad own off the side of the tracks? Or does it vary by location maybe. I suppose the other thing is the old ballast you’re disposing on the side there does help shore up the earth a bit, helping with drainage and runoff. Less washouts.
Typically we own 150 off both sides of the track Joshua, but as you say there are places where we own considerable more, depending on what deal they made back in the 1970's with each land owner. Coal fines are a fertilizer. They increase the organic matter of the soil. So I am actually improving the soil quality by spreading the coal along the right of way. There is more detail about coal as a fertilizer in this video description if you'd like to read it. EPA is not concerned about coal fines on the ground, except when it comes in contact with a stream. I am very careful not to do what I did here if it would mean fines washing into a stream. EPA would conniption fit out about that. Appreciate your watching and writing in today my good man.
You're in vast expanses of USA, but in England there can be multiple tracks with nowhere that spent ballast could be dumped; it has to be removed from site currently, so they take the ballast cleaner to the track. screened
Certainly understand that Uftonwood2. Multiple tracks are a challenge at times. From what I've heard, please correct me if I'm wrong, that in UK this kind of thing I'm doing would never occur whether it was single or multiple track? I certainly wish we had a better way of doing things, but we are also constrained by no interchange with any other RR and a lack of man power and equipment. Really appreciate your watching and writing in today my good man.
I watch the ore cars in the unit train hauling gravel from L G Everest pits north of Sioux Falls. The cars seem to go South mostly. Everest has seversl newer engines and the ore hopper cars are shiny new as well. They make a really cool sight when they roll across the trestle at Falls Park.
You are absolutely right Kenn. Over years of train traffic and tamping the sharp edged ballast which is perfect for holding track geometry becomes rounded and then it's like the track is sitting on roller bearings. Slides around. Most RR's have a comprehensive ballast renewal program because of this. Wet coal fines and mud in the ballast act like a lubricant and cause track shifting also. Good point my friend. Always great to have you visit with me.
Many companies recycle ballast (it's a 880 ft long ballast cleaning train): it's to expensive to waste all ballst and these cleaning trains are fast (1-2mph). It's most time only a temporary fix as there are often problems with foundations. For small companies it's cheper to sell the old ballast to ballast cleaners.
Being that we don't interchange with another RR here it's impossible to get those big ballast cleaners in here Stefan, they do work very well however. Thanks for taking the time to tune in and check out the video my friend.
Letting all the old ballast pile up next to the new seems like it might eventually get in the way, or fall outside the right of way for the track. Does it ever get hauled off?
Glad you found something new out James. A lot of folks have wondered. Also spreading the coal fines out along the ROW acts like a fertilizer which increases soil organic matter. Coal has been used as a fertilizer the world over. Read this video description to find out more about coal as a fertilizer. Appreciate your watching and writing in today my friend.
Dave, is the "contaminated" gravel and soil along the rail road going to become an legal or environmental liability? I work in the petroleum industry, and there are a lot of rules and environmental testing requirements for decommissioning sites. Aren't there similar rules in your industry?
First off fredy very good question and I do not know all the environmental rules on decommissioning. But something like a slurry pond to eliminate it: The water would be drained off and taken to get treated. Then the coal fines and mud left on bottom would be filled in with clay and dirt, then seeded over. A very big expense. I am not sure of the number of years allowed to keep a slurry pond as is after the mine would shut down, that may even be a thing that is state controlled, I just don't know that answer. The EPA is not that concerned about me putting coal fines along the right of way. In fact coal has been tested and used successfully as a fertilizer for some time now. It does not provide nutrients, but it does increase soil organic matter. So by spreading the coal fines out along the ROW I am actually enriching the soil. However with that said, I am careful not to do it where it may leach into a stream. That's what gets the EPA riled up, coal mixing with water. Read the video's description for a more detailed info on coal as a fertilizer.
@@ccrx6700 I didn't realize it was used as fertilizer! So then it's probably not a problem. I just know that gasoline and diesel are NOT used as fertilizer! :)
As long as the fines from your waste ballast isn’t washing into local streams stockpiling it within the right of way is basically benign. There are small rotary trammels for your excavator. The problem with that is you end up with a windrow of fines that need to be managed.
Coal is actually used as a fertilizer Kent. it increases soil organic matter. So by spreading coal along the ROW I'm actually fertilizing the soil. Read this video's description for more about coal as a fertilizer. What I don't do is spread the coal fines out anywhere it could have the possibility of getting into a stream. That is an EPA no no and would get the company fined. Thanks for watching the video today my good man
The conditions you gave for washing the ballast are understandable for your rail road. Have you heard of other rail roads that might do it? Maybe a class one?
Most class 1's from the guys who have written in do not wash their ballast either Dan, it's just not worth the expense. However several from the UK have written in and said they do. Thanks for taking the time to watch and write in today my good man.
We have 3 local quarries Mike, farthest one is 45 minutes away, and we have gotten ballast from all 3 over the years, it's all limestone as we cannot afford granite from NE area. Granite would be around 100 a ton and limestone here is 18. NS here uses granite, but they have unit trains to haul it here so transportation cost is minimal for them. Appreciate your taking the time to watch and may you have a most blessed day my friend.
WOW!, you come up with all kinds of ideas for M.O.W. scenes on scale model railroads, and with a variety of different colored scale ballast, it would be easy to create the same scene you're showing us! But it would best be done on a siding or spur, to allow model trains to run on the main. It will take time, but Mother Nature will eventually clean up that old ballast, but its questionable for reuse.
@@ccrx6700 my PC freight has been sitting for a couple of months, i acquired a new lady friend at the end of August, and have been giving her more attention than the HO trains. Her late father, and ex-husband both had train collections, so thats nothing new to her. But i have been doing some repairs in my house, and also a couple of small woodworking projects that she suggested. Will eventually get back to the trains, and she is willing to give me ideas for scenery, etc, plus those you have done excellent videos of.
Alco the Railroad Dog approves of this video, I thought I cool also. Yep, if it weren't for all the permits, costly regulations, inspections and fines associated with a wash plant nowadays I imagine you'd have one. Fentanyl crosses the border by the ton but heaven forbid a molecule of carbon escapes your wash plant.
Thanks Ken and Alco for dropping by and taking in the video. It's always a pleasure to have you guys visit with us. Love, love, love your last statement and how sadly true that is....
Your welcome Andy. Like Tim the Tool Man Taylor said, bigger is better. They actually have got an estimate for a big Volvo and Cat hi rail excavator, we shall see if it gets approved for next years budget. $650,000. Thanks for taking the time to watch today and write in my friend.
I think that a man with your capabilities and talents Colin could invent a system to do so. Please let me know when your prototype machine is ready and we will be your first guinea pig. Would love to try it out. Sure would love to find a better solution than what we are doing. Certainly appreciate your watching and writing in my friend.
Dave, Rance here. Since you laid out a good reason not to have a local ballast cleaning operation, does that mean there is a opportunity for a new business to form and recover old ballast and resell it!
That may be a good possibility Rance for someone with an entrepreneurial spirit. We sure got a lot of used ballast here! I would love to see this old stuff reclaimed. Are you interested? Thanks so much my friend for visiting with us and watching tonight.
Looks like that old stuff on the side will help a bit to keep that raised road bed from spreading out & tracks sinking down. I think that's some of the cause of what's being fixed now.
If you ever get a wash plant and legal safe slurry pond. Make sure you put in a Nugget trap for gold! For Retirement! We still have coal slag a few feet under from the steam engines. It is not fun to step on that as it isn't flat and it rolls!
I will do that Tuco and all the gold I get from that, will certainly divide it up amongst all my faithful subscribers! Throw a big party for everyone. Really appreciate your checking things out today and writing in my friend.
Hi Dave, great explanation on the ballast. I was one wondering why and thought it would be simple. Ha ha I was soooo wrong, I never even thought about the slury pond. And you're right at just 18 a ton it would just not be economical. Also wondering how far down the line you're planing on cribbing?
Thank you very much Gary for the kind words. Glad you enjoyed. In this section I have about 300 more feet to go before I move to another section. After that one gets done and it will be sometime next year, then we got plenty of other places to do. I'll be cribbing till I die here... LOL Appreciate your watching and writing in today my friend.
Thanks for the detailed explanation. The ballast you throw on the sides does not bother the drain? On the other hand it would seem that the soft ground would "swallow" the ballast anyway. Maybe the company don't have to make all that infrastructure investment. There are "ballast cleaners" (Matisa, Plasser & Theurer , Loram ). Maybe you could hire this machine to clean the ballast? Obviously I have no idea of the cost per mile of the service .
Your welcome aleu650. We would love to have one of those big cleaners in here, however we do not interchange with any other RR so getting them in here is impossible. They are so big I don't think they could even truck them in without dismantle and reassemble. Big, Big dollars doing that. Thanks for watching and writing in today my good man.
The best way to at least dry shake the dust out of the ballast would be one of those full under cut type machines but since this line has no connection to any mainline that makes getting that beast in there expensive and complicated too. Also, here's hoping in 30 years someone with means is willing to turn the tracks into Cumberland Scenic Railroad. Probably won't happen but we can always dream.
We have all joked here over the years that if the mine shuts down we can always open a scenic RR David. Actually it's a pretty cool idea I think and one that would make a profit. Man if we had a steam loco it would go over huge. Really appreciate your taking the time to watch and write in my friend.
One thing you didn't mention, how often a particular stretch of track needs to be redone. I've seen that it's a steady part of all your MOW work, but you aren't doing the same curve every month. Of course there are some oddball situations, like when that car decided to dump its load on the track, but just in general, how long does a good ballasting job last? Yeah, as soon as I saw the title I was like, "How do you dispose of the slurry? THAT's got to be an expensive thing to deal with."
Well Mike in this video, it is the first time it's ever been done since we started 43 years ago. Once I get it cribbed and tamped up good it will last for a long, long time, at least until, like you say, another car dumps it's load on the track.... SIGH So there is no set schedule for when a curve gets cribbed, we've got a lot more to do. Really appreciate your dropping by and taking in the video my friend.
I dont see this as not reusing your old ballast. It looks like you made a nice access road next to the rails either inadvertently or by design, this seems to be a nice benefit. Now you have a nice road way you can run a truck along or roll an excavator as needed. Looks to me like its serving a nice purpose without all the worry of regulations, transportation, fees permits etc.
Thank you Michael for your very nice comment. You are right. Also you may enjoy the follow up video to this one, link is below. Coal is proven to be used as a fertilizer, so I am also enhancing the organic matter of the soil along the right of way. You sound like a guy who has some common sense. Certainly appreciate your visiting with us tonight my good man. ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-PHqlN-ACVIY.html
Hey Dave, how about finding someone who will haul away the filthy Ballast and leave the cleaning up to them, sounds better than polluting the mountain side.
Understandably it will vary due to location confines such as road crossings but on average how much of the land on either side the track is mine/rail road property ?
We own a minimum of 150 feet on either side of the track from the center out. And in various places own more and sometimes a considerable amount more. It all depended on what deals US Steel could make back in the 1970's with each land owner. Back then they paid a flat rate of $1,000 per acre which then in this area was tremendously high for land. Now you couldn't but a used outhouse for a grand.... :-) Thanks for watching and writing in my friend.
If you were connected to the rail network you could bring in an under cutter ballast cleaner. But it’s likely too big a piece of equipment to bring in by truck and trailer. And it does look beneficial for the right of way to spread it out as you are doing.
Alas we are not George, that negates a lot of things that we could use and need here, specially transporting our locos and cars in. Coal is actually a fertilizer. it increases soil organic matter. So by spreading coal along the ROW I'm actually fertilizing the soil. Read this video's description for more about coal as a fertilizer. What I don't do is spread the coal fines out anywhere it could have the possibility of getting into a stream. That is an EPA no no and would get the company fined. Thanks for watching the video today my good man.
