The explanation of the thumbnail is that Qixian Cao uses zoomer ZBLS/EOLS algs which has proven to be better than just inserting the pair into OLL-PLL or EO-ZB. Also, a side note is that if you want to use EO to ZB to PRACTICE your ZBLLs, sure, just remember that you’re not saving time most of the time.
This is why your channel is probably in the top 3 cubing channels In my opinion, 2 medium quality videos in one day! I just love the consistency, keep it up!
I mean this does apply to everyone. If your OLL exec is slow, your zblls are gonna be proportionally just as slow too, and OLL->PLL would be faster for you too. In fact if you can't sub 1 every OLL yet learning full ZB you are definitely wasting your time imo. Like, learning 400+ difficult to learn and recognize cases, when you can't even sub 1 OLL is just crazy to me lol. Getting anywhere close to his TPS here is still easier than actually mastering ZBLL. He's not gatekeeping ZBLL he's just telling pure facts that will apply no matter what. OLL is underrated and everyone who actually learned ZBLL seem to come around to it after a while. Doesn't mean its useless far from it but like he said doing EO to ZB is just not optimal most of the time. Btw like yeah, 0.6s for every OLL is definitely not for everyone but even just 1-1,2s is entirely realistic for most. Just like sub 1-2s PLL is entirely in the realm of achievability for most. And if you can do both of these you're fine, really
@@simonthibodeau7082 The point is that it's not proportional. For people with worse TPS (almost everyone) bad cases cost a lot more time, even *relative* to the total solve. It's typically more worthwhile for them to prioritize efficiency than it is for people with cracked TPS like Brina, since it's harder to just TPS spam your way through longer algs. It's also not proportional because recog time is pretty much independent of TPS (and much more trainable), so for most people it can be more worthwhile to trade recog for efficiency than it is for Brina. I agree with the overall take that EO>ZB is overrated, but not to the extent suggested here, and certainly not with the *way* it's shown here.
i really do agree with everything you said in the video (and i'll definitely try and optimize my olls more) except regarding eo to 2gll to avoid diag cp. i've been taking advantage of specific cases like these for like a year now and they are not only easy to recognize but also consistent by doing a short eo into a 2gll instead of getting a diag pll. although you are right that people who are not sub8 should definitely not go as far as this, but if you're not world class yet but reasonably fast then you should consider learning these cases thanks for the amazing video!
I'm glad I stayed to the end, that was really entertaining hearing you call out other top cubers for being slow on OLL, who previously said they benefited from EO to ZB
@@BrinaSun I mean it makes sense, even though I'm slow as Christmas around 17-18 sec average on a good day, and I only know something like 30 ZB algs, but I can sorta get your point, because even at my level, the little bit of ZB I do know doesn't always save a solve. I'd say about 10-15% of the time, if I get a ZB I know, it'll be one of the hard ones, and I'll sit there for eternity trying to remember how to do the alg instead of just doing OLL → PLL haha!
You explained the topic really well and I agree with most of it except the LUF oll as it's inconsistent and easy to lock up on (at least for me). I also do think its worth it for people who have mastered ZB recognition + execution and for some of the awkward shapes as you can predict the zbll beforehand but yeah in general for 95% of cubers, it's not worth it for sure. Great video!!
BTW what do you think about dylan's solving style. He tries to avoid doing F moves and focuses more on EO during f2l instead of doing "fancy" rotationless solutions
Well, Dylan isn’t world class or least not yet (he’s not close to sub5) so it’s not too important what’s he’s doing. But my opinion is that I doubt he will get sub5 with his current style. People like Yiheng, Qixian, Xuanyi, and other Chinese prodigies have more advanced solving styles, and the same can be said for Tymon. Max park is the only world class solver with a simpler solving style but even he has already adopted more advanced techniques for a few years, including doing E moves during cross, pseudoslotting, and S moves during LL
@@BrinaSun ok, that’s ur opinion and I respect it. But he has a 5.3 avg. my def is having a realistic capability of winning or placing high at a big comp so ig its diff.
To be clear this isnt an argument to the point of this video, your probably right abt a lot of what you said, but i think that using the time it takes FOR YOU to do the alg doesnt really make sense to use for making a point like this. Naturally theres going to be a big gap between the slowest turner whose trying to use eo to zb and the fastest turner, so while it makes sense to use that logic when you are trying to figure out whats faster for YOURSELF, it doesnt for anyone watching the video. So if you could tell people to time the algs themsleves, the concept will be way more usefull to them asuming they actually listen to you bc it seems like most ppl dont actually do this
As Brina mentioned, most ZBLL algs will have more difficult fingertricks than OLL. So if you aren’t as advanced/fast with your fingertricks, it will be even worse to do EO+ZBLL compared to OLL.
All that you said is redundant because of what Miles mentioned above me. If your OLLs and PLLs are slow then your ZBLLs aren’t going to be slower by the same amount, they will be even more slow because ZBLLs are naturally much harder At this point why are people still arguing for EO to ZB
Because of that, you don’t actually have to time these algs for yourself to know that your ZBLL is going to be slower than you’d want it People who suck at OLL and PLL yet can benefit from doing EO to ZB do not exist, mark my words. And even if these people existed, it just means they turn super slowly and use some super fancy ZBLL algs to make up for it. This means they wont be able to progress to a competitive level. My video is made for people who want to and can progress to a competitive level. In addition, everything I stated in this video is facts, not opinions. I just have opinions surrounding those facts. EO to ZB is objectively worse than OLL to PLL 99% of the time, and for 99% of people. It is entirely pointless to argue here.
@@BrinaSun "to be clear this isnt an argument to the point of this video" (that almost every eo to zb isn't worth it) I'm just saying that I would be nice if you would say for ppl to time the algs themselves in the video for ANY instance comparing any algs or combination of algs
As someone that uses ZBLL for a decent long time and use a lot EO + ZB, I agree with most of what you said. I will defnetly think about some cases that might not be very optimized. However I still think that it is worth it in some other cases for a few reasons. I will take the L' U' L U' L' U L U L F' L' F for an example (Don't know the number, lol). That one is one that doesn't matter what alg u use, it will be slow oficially. Locking up in L U moves oficially, specially in big finals or in a general high pressure situations is very likely (specially when u use the long RUF alg like me). Yet if you do the 7 mover or left fat sune, that are both a bit more consistent to execute under pressure, you will get to a ZB, that even tho are in theory longer and slower than the PLL, are usually quite consistent to execute. Specially because most of the algs are just taking a pair and inseting in an easy way, or a RUD thing. Also RUS is very hard to perform well in comps, that's why the RUS U perm even tho is faster, is not better than doing the RU alg, at least in comps. Consistency is very important in that sense, specially on the very high level. But I agree that it is defnetly not worth it for most of the cases people do it, and even for most people in general. Very good points and good video bro!
Ok. So your comment applies to a very specific set of people that have somehow mastered ZBLL but fail to do simple OLLs. I disagree on an objective level that LUF OLLs are risky in comps. I also disagree about RUS because people like me and Tommy Cherry can do RUS in comp without problem. You still have a point but just notice that what you said doesn’t apply to a lot of people Thanks for your comment!
Look who's here! As for this specific OLL, I've tried the back version with a back sledge, then the fatsune to zb, then the a little bit longer RUF alg, but came back to the LUF version KKKKKKKKKK A OLL I like to do EO to ZB is OLL 30, with the ELL alg (Tymon used in some of his 3s). But I actually tried every single one of the 1LLL for this OLL to see which CPs are worth it or not to do the trick. Anyways, doesn't really matter if I lockup and blow the solve up KKKKKKKKKKKK
@@rodadordedadinho yeah so for the LUF OLL (OLL 36) you are correct for switching back to LUF. It remains the fastest alg. I will say that R’ F’ U’ F2 U R U’ R’ F’ R exists tho As for OLL 30, I show it in this video. S’ R’ U’ R f R’ U R U’ F’ is so fast for OLL that I will dismiss EO to ZB for it unless you can somehow force a good case
@@BrinaSun Well not trying to start a very long argument, but just to show my points. First of all I agree 100%. No one that averages like 10 should be doing it. Maybe not even learning ZB at that point is worth it. But about alg consistency, I have to disagree. Lefty moves in LL are usually very risky cuz of the both hands regrip. Yes, you can practice to optimize the execution, but I would still guess that most of the people on the top 100 would rather choose a RUF or RUD alg over a LU or SU alg (exept some specific cases like the S R U R' U'... OLL. But even that one doesn't have a S after or followed by an U, which is something in my experience tend to lockup more). And keepeing on that subject, yes, it makes sense that you could do it well. You seem to like those algs a lot, and that's very respectable, it's an interesting solving style. But about Tommy... Not only he is a Blinder, but 3x3 is not his main event, even tho he still is very good. As for those people not having good OLL's, at least in my experience (there are ofc people way faster), I tried many different algs for a lot of OLLs, including RUS ones. If I do an alg 100 times, get a .3 on it, but it's very inconsistent, I will always choose the one I can do it 100 times and always get .6, cuz in comp the one that I got faster a few times, but inconsistent, will be very likely to lockup with comp nerves, and even more in big finals. I know it might not be the same for everyone, but that's what happens to me usually at lest. I do agree with most of what you said tho, that's not a hate message or something. Just trying to explain my point better
I’m not surprised that it’s the fast cubers that are going to argue about this topic. Well you didn’t watch the video, and I explained that for fast solvers that have mastered ZBLL, it can be useful for a limited number of cases most people won’t benefit from EO to ZB. There’s also a lot of other points I made but the video is more than the first sentence (Also I did say “pretty much”, not absolutely, for a reason”)
"Just do the double fat sune" Why not just learn full ZBLL, and get good recognition, because then your saving 7 moves on an OLL case. Anyone would say saving 7 moves for OLL is really good
saving 7 moves for an OLL and then slowing down your solve by needing to do ZBLL isn’t saving time. you only save like 0.1 from doing EO instead of double fat sune. double fat sune is easily 0.5
I don’t use EO to ZB, (don’t know many ZBLL’s) but I do agree with this. Having good turning, especially LUF turning, is far more important and will help more in the long run than EO to ZB will. Only worth it for those 2 atrocious OLLs. Having better turning and better algs is better than doing EO into ZB for the vast majority of people who have not mastered ZBLL
The generalisation of "you already have to be sub-8" is very subjective. Some people are just so much naturally faster or slower than you that it is all relative. Some people cannot even get sub-10 with perfect basics and and training. Their visuospatial and dexterity skills are just not as good. So maybe they want to do interesting things because they can never get sub-8. It's a very myopic view making generalisations like this.
I learned U and T cases 5 months ago they benefit preety much every solves for me because i drilled them more than 8000 times i currently average low 8(almost sub 8) I don't do eo to zb except those 2 cases i think i should currently focus on improving my oll algs than learning more zbs ( currently learned L zb few weeks ago ) and improving my cross+1 from your videos Thanks 👍
Yes, that is a valid reason that I mentioned in the pinned comment. I will say that youre wasting time in solves though. You can practice ZBLLs using ZBLL trainers. I find that more effective
Brina is correct , i appreciate the fact that you are discouraging eo to zb For the fast people Like tymon and patrick . Juju For the rest of us its bad .
I almost always do EO from LS into coll/s/as into epll or WV if its one of the good cases. Im not claiming its very good but damn if i learned the algs im using them lol
I know you mentioned awkward shapes but what about EO with an edge comm on OLLs 30 and 34 and then predicting the zb? that eliminates the longer zb recognition you mentioned so by your math it's faster
Possibly faster however people forget that ROLL and JOLL is used by top cubers like Yiheng and Ruihang to do OLL to PLL without pausing. They basically one look last layer with OLL and PLL which is faster
@@BrinaSun You can't use Ruihang/Yiheng as an example of what's possible with OLL>PLL while deliberately ignoring Tymon for what's possible with EO>ZB lmao
@@BrinaSun what cookierobber said ^ but also even Yiheng pauses for PLL the majority of the time, while predicting ZB means you can have an instant transition 100% of the time and even cancel into it sometimes like Tymon does
Too many bad scrambles, also, on 99% of solves, pros can predict 2 pairs or more in inspection, which is much better and faster than just having eocross. Maybe just maybe if you are very experienced with it, you could go for easy eocross if you spot them and if they're easy, sometimes. However for sure, cross+1,2 or more is overall better than going for eocross.
As a 2x2er the recog for sune CP doesn’t suck. When I used CLL, recognition was bad at first, but got better through a lot of practice. I can predict what the corners will be for the sune OLL everytime. (And honestly I should for all my OLL’s, I just haven’t bothered to learn such)
@@Anthony_Jiangjust some good alg suggestions and why you believe those are better then the rest. This channel does that a lot but trying to use them in OH solves isn't easy
You have to know full sets of ZBLL with 2 sided recognition (with a few exceptions I’d say), and be able to 0.8 99% of them. Not all of them because there are bad cases
@@BrinaSun0.8 is absolutely bullshit lol. Most of the best ZBLL users average around 2-2.2 seconds for execution + recognition (according to Tymon himself and Juju) and their recognition times are about one second or even slightly less. This leaves you with around 1-1.2 second execution times for most ZBLLs. Rmemeber these are the absolute top ZBLL users. I’m not sure where you got 0.8 from. A lot of your takes seem extremely cynical and over exaggerated.
@@psyarts8687 well isn’t that great. That just means that ZBLL is even harder and slower than I said in the video, further proving my point I’m getting 0.8 from Daniel Edgal lol. Remember that by 0.8 I only mean execution time
@@BrinaSun I wasn’t disagreeing with your point at all. I was saying the specific benchmark you set, and what Daniel Edgal says, is unrealistic in actual solves
guys im am avergeing 25 i am dual color neutral full oll and pll i know f2l from almost milion sides i can plan full cross and im not that bad at look ahead what did i do?
You can do whatever you want with your time but you should prioritize doing cross+1 practice at your level. Also, I already have an OLL video, PLL, video, F2L, and CFOP video so there’s no point in making a video for awkward shapes other than for getting views
@BrinaSun I meant the awkward shape ollcp algs Cross+1 is something that I try to do on every scramble but I sometimes just get to plan one pair and I'm getting better with it by time
if you have a cp that is a zbll set you know and all you need to do is R U R’ U’ M’ U R U’ R’ or the inverse of that to get to zb, then it’s completely worth it cause it’s so easy to predict. Eo to zb is also less moves so doing the OLL and pll is just worse, especially cause you can’t one look oll and pll the same way you can with doing eo to zb. Not every eo to zb case you need to do F sexy F’, it’s actually more common to do the Oll I said because it’s so easy to predict and it’s basically a 1LLL
Also your entire video is just explaining that oll is fast. Obviously it’s fast, but not everyone turns as fast as you do especially in solves. If you do less moves, and one look the case, it’s gonna be faster no matter what. People who get good with zb can get it on par with their pll recognition time, so why would you do a worse oll into a pll that’s equally as good as just doing zb?
Good points however ROLL and JOLL exist and are used by Ruihang and Yiheng to predict PLL from OLL. They do it flawlessly and transition from OLL to PLL without pause
@@BrinaSun ok yea but they learn that by doing thousands of solves and it’s purely based on what they know from doing those solves. doing a commentator to solve eo makes it intuitive to predict zb cause there’s only 3 peices moving. If you give yiheng a LL case he’s never seen, he wouldn’t be able to predict the pll. If you gave someone who knows zb a LL case they have never seen, they would be able to one look it.
Honestly if people are so dedicated to using ZBLL they're doing EO just to use it they should just learn ZBLS and actually use the full method lmao (or learn ZZ or another orientation method)
@@BrinaSun I made this comment before watching the video, I thought it was going to be about zz, and not orienting the edges after f2l, which I thought was never seriously implemented because of ZBLS.
I’m just here to argue about nothing. No im not. But I will say considering the recognition times and everything else I still can’t be 1 second with oll or pll. I sit at 2+. On most of them. But I turn at 6tps at max. Old man fingers don’t move like a young bucks.
