Hollyhock was the best thing that happend to bojack, he finally got to experience unconditional family love. Bojack was the worst thing that happend to hollyhock, she got a drug overdose and trauma
Yeah, that's the saddest thing for me. I never blamed Hollyhock, because from her perspective and experiences she had ample reason to leave SOONER, but she gave him so many chances. Bojack really tried, but Bojack was...well, Bojack and he was not a good, or safe, influence to Hollyhock. She was already going through enough and luckily she HAS a loving family, friends - a whole support system. Bojack was an estranged brother she knew for a year, maybe two, and she had no obligation to stay, especially when her family disapproved, her friends did, and all the red flags that occurred around or because of him being in her life.
Not saying Bojack isn’t a toxic person but is it really fair to blame him for her overdose? He was very clear with Hollyhock that he wanted nothing to do with his mother yet she pressured him into letting her back in his life anyways. And then Bojack was proven right when Beatrice drugged her.
@@spencergreen9415 That isn't specifically his fault entirely. But as the more experienced adult he could have prevented the contact if he really wanted. And at the very least, after the contact was started he should have been paying closer attention to what was going on and what Beatrice was doing. Hollyhock was warned, but at the same time she's young and was wanting connection with her bio family, and that can (and did) blind her. Bojack knew better, she didn't.
@@spencergreen9415 he is the adult, he knew beatrice. He shouldve put his foot down and put her in a nice retirement home nearby, so hollyhock still couldve visited. Thing im most confused about is who gave beatrice the pills, she couldnt have gotten it on her own and i think bojack gave then to her. Its unlikely the carebear gave her the pills as giving random pills to a patient seems unprofessional especially without informing bojack. Hollyhock wanted to borrow the car to get milk, which bojack refused to borrow that time, so it seems hollyhock cant get to the store and she seems responsible enough to question the pills and beatrice need for it. So that leaves bojack, irresponsible enough to get the pills, irresponsible enough not to check what beatrice is doing with the pills, irresponsible enough to not inform anyone about her having the pills and understand what beatrice meant with the pretty pills. If this theory is true its 100% on bojack, the fully mentally capable adult in the household.
@@Ihazfunkitty She could have bought them herself. Dementia patients do have moment of clarity from time to time and even if she was completely lost in delusion, she was still capable of doing alot of things. I dont doubt she could handle picking up a a bottle of the shelf, walking it to the counter, and paying for it or easier yet ordering it online. Or maybe she had a stash of the pills for herself since she grew up taking them all the time and was told she had to remain skinny
some people like to pull out the “but he’s FAAAAMILY” excuse which is never valid, and others get caught up in thinking bojack is supposed to be entirely sympathetic because he’s the protagonist
@@notgreatgale That seems like a strawman. Most just argue she forced her way into Bojack's life, drugged him multiple times, reignited his trauma with his mother, etc. Too many people act like she's 15 and not a legal adult. Or use tone armor and play her bad actions for laughs/meaning well. So while she technically was within her rights, it was shitty.
It took me rewatching the show a few times to realize how much red flags she saw from BJ, but still stayed around. I think the reason why fans were hurt she left is because she was such a likable character.
Totally! On a selfish level, I liked having her around because she was such a breath of fresh air on this depressing show. Which is probably how Bojack felt about her. So even though his pain is our pain, we can at least feel some relief that she set that boundary.
i don’t get it when this argument is made by the “but faaaamily 🥺🥺” crowd. like do they not see that hollyhock has EIGHT loving dads?? and she only knew bojack for a couple years at best?? she had literally zero obligation to ever give him the time of day, blood by itself does not make them family!!
I generaly find our concept of family so obligational (wich is stupid because there are so many more concepts of family in other cultures). I had to go my own way at some point and a part of my family couldn't see and understand that. I mainly parted ways and for me personaly lost this ungraspable connecting thing (what persumably makes you family) to them. And I often wander how shitty it is we are never taught to build such connections to other people whi we want on our way in life. It's either take it or leave it with the family yoi are boren in and its hard to find something after you left.
moreover, she was young and inexperienced (and we saw how he treated young girls in the past...), why should she waste her youth and her mental health on a toxic 50 something year old man? Even PC and Diane were exhausted
i honestly think the only people who thought Hollyhock’s actions weren’t justified were the VERY SPECIFIC type of fans who put Bojack on a bit too high of a pedestal. You know the ones. They also maybe are a little too aggressive on their opinions about Diane. Y’know. You know why. and you also know why we don’t listen to those fans. I will never get over that gut sinking feeling of “oh my god that’s Pete Repeat” and knowing that the relationship between Hollyhock and Bojack would have to change forever. What else was a young horse girl to do?
Agh the toxic Bojack defenders are the bane of my existence. Fortunately with the Philbert season, we learned exactly how the creators of the show feel about fans like that.
People fail to acknowledge how every relationship Bojack has hold with other women has failed bc he values mostly only about his needs and the comfort their provide rather than them as people (even if eventually he can grow to respect some of them) , he always looks for unconditional love and sex, if not one then the other and also he likes the idea of being needed but loathes the compromise of having to reciprocate those efforts, he fears failure and the bad things that could happen (bc he knows he could do worse), Hollyhock fell in some really lucky place in which he actually wanted to be a good brother, but it felt like eventually he would seek in her as he done before just for the idea of being needed and for comfort, maybe it would be just a bad end scenario but even then she has no obligation to stay just based on good intentions and little work to actually get better
This stuff blows my mind. I wanted to check out some Bojack Reacts and I had clicked on one reactor that kept talking about how the woke mob was trying to take Bojack down. Simply wild mentality.
I don't think she even needs this many reasons. She was moving past her being drugged by Beatrice. She offered to take time off from college if BoJack needed her (and in a rare moment of unselfishness he told her no, go to college). In season six she finds out more and more of the terrible things he's done and realises that they don't really *know* each other. She certainly doesn’t know *him*. They have the same biological father, that’s not enough for a sibling bond. She was excited to find out she had a brother... and then realised that he was a stranger, and a sketchy one at that.
She was right. Even when he was "nice" to her, he still makes little jabs or disrespected boundaries. Her brother is a famous actor and she never even benefitted. She never got a car or a shopping trip. Instead she got drugged by his abusive mom for months, while seeing her brother act like trash and try to sleep with all her possible moms again. Even when hes clean and doing better, he still doesnt listen to her, doesnt respect boundaries, etc. He is a 50 year old man who is placing like 80% of his mental health onto this girl thats known him a year. And then she finds out he is a sexual predator. How could she be wrong? She gave him more of her time than he ever deserved and she literally got nothing beneficial back at all.
@@cameronspalding9792 It happened in his home, so he is partially responsible. Also, Hollyhock doesn't have as much info about Bojack as the audience. She can't be sure if he really had nothing to do with her being drugged. Like said in the video, Bojack lied and kept things from her, so can she really trust him when he blames his mom ? Especially while taking into account what happened to Sara Lynn, a daughter figure for Bojack, who died because of drugs ?
@@cameronspalding9792 We, the audience, knows that. She doesn't. Plus it was obvious something was wrong, but Bojack was too selfish to notice until she collapsed.
Yeah, and they saw themselves in bojack. The idea someone can be justified in not helping them despite their pain is scary, because that means no one is obligated to save *them* from themselves
@@KiraNikk0sthis is why the philbert season has a special place in my heart. Makes me feel sane among a sea of toxic Bojack defenders but also reminds me not to become a Bojack. Not that I would engage in his more unsavory actions but more so to not become a self destructive asshole who needs someone to fix my problems.
It was within her right to do this but I don't really like how that was her first resort before talking to bojack about it, I mean she met a nice stranger at a party and he told her the truth about bojack but i don't think she had much reason to just take his word and decide to distance herself from him without even asking him about it, I don't think she would do that after all the time they spent together and specially at that time when bojack was sober and trying to turn over a new leaf. TL;DR: to me Hollyhock's choice wasn't wrong, but she should have talked to bojack properly before
@@pedrothiagosimoes5832 One, we never see the letter she wrote bojack, why? Because we can picture every shitty thing he’s done not only to her but other people leading up to it. Enough was said without even showing us, the story she heard was just the last straw in the long list of shitty things he had done. Two, where was that grace for Herb when Bojack never contacted him until he was DYING? Didn’t even have the goddamn respect to send Herb a letter of closure, the man who gave him his career! Bojack didn’t give Hollyhock a damn thing but she was still a better person than he ever was for even sending him a letter.
@@jazmyndebono4927 I'm not saying bojack didn't do anything wrong, he has hurt a lot of people and there's no excuse for that, but that doesn't necessarily mean he deserves to be hurt or treated like this specially at that point where bojack is showing signs he can be a better person, and how exactly is hollyhock a better person for sending a letter that caused a relapse to his addiction? To me this whole situation was out of character for hollyhock and the writers did this because the show was ending and they had to quickly wrap things up
Bojack tends to make women feel responsible for him. Princess Caroline and Diane, tried to help him. Hollyhock did what they couldn’t cut him off. Princess Caroline was with him helped him for 10 years!! What was she supposed to eat that BS forever? Diane cut Bojack off too. Why? He was toxic friend. It was only a matter of time that he’d hurt her more. Hollyhock is a child compared to everyone. Why is a child responsible for an adult? And this child, did the best thing for her self. Cutting someone off, which is a lesson EVERYONE in Bojacks life had to do. Does it suck? Yeah, but life’s a B and you go on living.
Bojack met sarah lynn when she was a child, and took advantage of her when she was 30, gave her heroin, and waited 17 minutes to call the paramedics that could have saved her life, but she ended up dying in the hospital because of how long he waited. And people blame Hollyhock for leaving bojack?!- If anything she should have. doesn't matter if he's her brother.
Right?! the only reason he called 911 immediately for Hollyhock is because he wasn’t the one who poisoned her. I’m pretty sure we all know damn well that if he had been the one giving her that amphetamine, he wouldn’t have called an ambulance. She could’ve just easily died due to his negligence like Sarah Lynn did.
@@alex_enbee That's a chilling thought. You're right, if he'd been the one doing that he'd have just watched her collapse. Even the way it happened, the first thing he did was dump all his pills down the drain so when the paramedics arrived, no one would be able to trace it back to him.
@alex_enbee not to defend Bojack but I always thought him calling the paramedics right away was more of a PTSD based reaction over him thinking someone else drugged her. Cosidering how he had just gone through the same thing with Sarah Lynn and despite how terrible it was what he did to Sarah Lynn, the show makes it clear that he feels guilt and has a conscience. I think the factor of that trauma and not being completely strung out from a 2 month bender are both major impacts on his decision there. That being said he still flushes whatever pills are in his cupboard down the toilet which is again him trying to get rid of evidence to save his own ass (despite him not being the cause of her od)
@@jaedenbaker4611It gets worse when you realize that Bojack didn't know what pills Hollyhock had taken. When someone is overdosing, you're supposed to save the pills so the doctors know what they're dealing with
@@rosesweetcharlotte I didn't actually know that, like literally today years old finding this out. Gonna tuck that little fun fact away in case of an emergency now. Thank you.
I hate the "but he's family 😭" crowd, they completely missed the point. My mom has a brother who's exactly like Bojack and decided to cut all ties with him, it's easy to justify Bojack's actions until you have your own Bojack in your life.
Exactly! My mom’s family is incredibly wishy-washy and they’re so rude to each other. I can’t say any of them are bojack level, but I’ve seen how they’ve hurt each other over and over. My mom’s said herself that she only gets along with two of her brothers out of the six siblings she has. But she refuses to cut them off, no matter how much they hurt her, and it’s terrible for her! Hollyhock was absolutely in the right for distancing herself from a sibling that wasn’t good for her mental health
I'm considering that for my biological family. Since they only care about their worthless drugs over their own flesh & blood. Plus lately they're acting crazy & being crappy people. I don't want them acting psycho and hurting me & my pets. I want them to have good lives and to be happy... free from addiction. Although, I'm sad that they choose drugs & jail over family.
And these same people will get mad at Hollyhock for wanting BoJack to reconnect with his mother because they were family. Like it's a big point of the show that being blood related doesn't mean you're going to have a good relationship or that you owe them anything
@@Silly1336 Because Beatrice lost her brother in WW2 and that had a terrible impact on her and her mother because they had a strong relationship with him. Combined with all the other terrible things in her childhood and the fact that she repeated the cycle makes it super depressing because Bojack probably could have been a better older brother if Beatrice had treated him better. And yes, Bojack is still responsible for his terrible actions regardless of how Beatrice treated him. But you can't help but wonder if Bojack and Hollyhock could have had that same awesome relationship like Beatrice had with her brother.
I think a lot of us wanted it to work out, for Bojack to have a healthy, supportive family member. But even if Hollyhock was that for him...he was not that for HER. Yes he was trying, but rhat doesnt excuse anything. From Hollyhock's perspective she was justified and sooo right cutting contact with him. No one should blame her for it imo.
Someone pointed out that Bojack didn't even do, like, basic nice things for her. He was rich and he didn't even buy her a car or give her a shopping spree or something. Relationships should be more than material goods, but at the same time, when Hollyhock is going through that much with him, she gets absolutely nothing out of it other than pain
@@rosesweetcharlotte I actually saw that comment and agreed with it to a degree. He kind of did the bare minimum and honestly? I don't even think he did that great at it to begin with.
As someone coming from a place of family abuse, there is NOTHING wrong with cutting out someone who does nothing but harm your well-being. It's not selfish. it's looking after yourself, and I dont think it's ever fair to criticize someone for choosing their mental health and well-being over someone who has a history of abuse. Even if said abuser is making changes and actively trying to do better, it's still up to the person that cut ties if they want to have a relationship again.
It was refreshing to have a show where the main character is deeply flawed and the writers are not even trying to make excuses for him. And to see the generational traumas depicted was very interesting too. And as someone that has had a long history with mental health I cried many many times watching because many moments are super relatable. But Bojack for sure is broken and has traumas, but I think his character is the perfect example of "don't blame your behavior on your past" cuz many times he could have made different choices but still chose to stick to his old patterns. Bojack many times act like an emotional vampire to people, he has a tendency of over-sharing because he doesn't want to deal with his own issues. And that problem also manifests as drug and alcohol abuse, he's running away from his feelings. Another thing is that he has the tendency of dragging other people into his self destruction. He is not a good friend at all. It's like "let's self destruct together, both of us can be miserable". Nah... A good friend would not want to drag their friends into destruction. For me anyway I came face to face with alot of my own issues, the dark side of having shitty mental health... The self sabotage behavior Bojack have was extremely relatable to me and some other things. But I will always think that everybody has a choise to be better, no matter how many traumas you have. You can choose to just sulk, self destruct and feel sorry for yourself or you can choose to fight your demons every day, and keep working on yourself.
My heart broke for Bojack when he read the letter. We, as the audience, witnessed him lose his last chance at a healthy familial connection and we could see so clearly how this shattered Bojack. However, my heart did not break for Hollyhock when Bojack read the letter. I was proud of her. I was sad that she wouldn’t get the relationship she hoped to have with Bojack, but I was relieved she would not be involved with his spiral going forward. I think what people who hate Hollyhock for this choice are forgetting is that just because Bojack is the protagonist of the show we’re watching, doesn’t mean he’s the protagonist of the everyone else in the show’s life. I feel like the final episode demonstrated that really well. In another part of this world, in a show we will never see, there was an entire episode of Hollyhock agonizing over what to do about Bojack. Even in a story about one (horse)man, everyone in his story considers themselves the protagonist of their own story. Hollyhock did not exist to save Bojack. She’s a teenage (horse)girl living her own story only distantly connected to the protagonist of the story we’re watching.
What's so amazing about this show is that it masterfully leads you to caring deeply about this troubled man and seeing events from his perspective, only to hold a mirror up to you and show how you have, in fact, internalized the justifications Bojack uses for his reprehensible behaviour. We often wonder "how can these people act that way and not realise how much damage they're doing?" Well, this show answers that by making us do it too.
One of my favorite tv moments. I LOVED that she left. Did it break me? Yeah, of course, but _she_ needed to do it to have a good life, to be safe mentally and emotionally. If she ever wanted to reach out later so be it, but Hollyhock deserves to just be happy and that doesn’t have to include BoJack. In the end, he’s a net negative on her life and she doesn’t need that. A great example for so many people to look to when they are in hard situations like this. Same with Diane at the end of the show. ❤
People who get mad at Hollyhock for leaving so badly want to pretend her and Bojack are on the same level. They aren't. Bojack is a grown man. He knows what drug use looks like. He knows what overdrinking looks like. He knows he shouldnt attempt to get with girls who are inappropriately aged to him. He knows all of this. Hollyhock is a teenager who was so excited about meeting her biofamily that she didnt realize all the red flags present. She wanted to give Beatrice a chance, and Bojack being sorta rude about her instead of actually explaining the risks didnt help. Him then getting mad at Holly and guilting her when she had a PTSD episode in regaurds to what Beatrice did to her- Didn't help. Him then taking her ON A DRUG DEAL, directly after that drug related PTSD episode. Did. Not. Help. And then, when she finally accepts the red flags, Bojack had suddenly started trying really really hard to be super close and friendly with her. Showing up at her school. Supporting her hobbies. Making himself constantly present- and then suddenly she finds out not only did he put Penny's friends in danger, but he tried to sleep with Penny. He let Sarah Lynn die. Hes had a multitude of inappropriate relationships and drug/alcohol fueled rampages. Yeah, Bojacks damaged. Okay. But Hollyhock isnt obligated to fix him. Bojack is a fully grown adult and Hollyhock is a teenager. They are not the same thing.
Seriously, Beatrice gave Hollyhock the chance to break whatever painful cycle the family was caught up in and Bojack risked Hollyhock becoming just another Horseman failure.
As someone who has tried to help self destructive relatives like Bojack (unfortunately, mine are not trying to better themselves) I really appreciated this arc for Hollyhock. She would have been dragged down, and sometimes separating yourself can be a huge wake up call for the person.
Reminds me of what Anna Spanakopita said about drowning, that sometimes when you’re truly to help someone drowning (“struggling”), that person will drag you down with them.
I still find it ironic that the best thing Bojack could teach the selfless people trying to help him in his life was basically: "Be more selfish F others dont try to fix them" and so they did when they cut him off their lives, yet he couldnt learn anything significant from their attempts to help him, he only realized he was another loser just one with more money once that woman he used to work with revealed she used him to get the creator of the IP fired.
I always kinda thought she put up the boundary of “let’s be pen pals that’s all I am comfortable with, don’t call me. If pen pals isn’t enough I’m done.” Because she didn’t block him immediately. She blocked him when she realized he’s never gonna read the letter. He’s never gonna respect her boundaries. And he realized once again even fully sober he screws up his relationship. So if he’s just as bad sober why not just drink. To be clear I think that was his take it isn’t mine.
She only blocked him once he stated in one of his voice mails that he received the letter. I think she just wanted confirmation that he got it. She just wanted to be she he got it before she cut him out completely.
Its honestly shocking that we need a video explaining why someone would be right to leave an unsalvageable mess of emotional horror (bojack) behind, I just wish Todd did that on the first season.
I've heard people say that "she didn't give him a chance" I think everything added up made her go "yeah, I don't need that". Because Bojack is the main character we expect others to cater to him, to make sure he is okay. It doesn't work like that. If you can't see them taking accountability it's a deal breaker for many.
The reaction to Hollyhock's decision is telling. People who have experienced toxic relationships and were harmed by them and acknowledged it are more likely to agree with her than those who are still dealing with a toxic relationship. We idealize the "love conquers all" mentality, both romantically and platonically, in our societies. Having a "ride or die" sounds great, until they are actively doing things that could actually kill you and/or themselves.
I think people need to understand that love is powerful, love is strong and beautiful. But so are hurricanes and tornadoes. Love can be a very destructive thing.
Love is a great thing, but Bojack showed it was wasted on him, through his actions he was more forthcoming into teaching the chicks trying to help him to be "more selfish and F others" in reality this mentality is precisely why he ends up alone at the end of the show.
Hollyhock was absolutely justified in cutting her brother off, and i believe those who disagree are projecting. Hollyhock represents hope for Bojack. He really turned himself around for her, even though it could never make up for all the crappy things he did. I believe this is why people are mad at Hollyhock, it's like she took his hope of change away from him. People are projecting this disappointment into her, they same way people blame the victim for "splitting up the family" when the abuser is the one causing problems. If i was Hollyhock, i absolutely would have done the same thing
Hollyhock saw her friends and probably herself too when hearing about what bojack did. Bojack only thinks of himself The show itself says why is a grown man at a prom Also if anyone genuinely believes its okay because of a technicality im concerned
He wasn't just at the prom. He helped teenagers get drunk, abandoned a girl who had severe alcohol poisoning, threatened a young boy into silence, and then tried to seduce his friend's daughter for revenge.
Honestly, the main reason why people are upset with this decision is because we as an audience don’t see her cut him off in person like the others did. We don’t even get to hear the letter Thera no breakup song no closure. Which I get I was bummed too but that’s the whole point Things aren’t always wrapped up in a neat little package
In fact, I think Hollyhock's decision to break up with Bojack was the right one purely out of luck. Because let's face it, Bojack had no justification, things were as they seemed, and she couldn't forgive him, but let's ask ourselves a question: would Hollyhock have acted differently if things weren't what they seemed and could Bojack have given her a valid explanation for what happened? After all, in episode 9 of the last season she was hostile towards Bojack because of what she discovered, but she didn't tell him. She changed her attitude towards him, but she didn't tell him the real reason, going around that, dening him the chance to tell her his version of the facts (of course, nothing he would said could have made things right, but she couldn't known that in advance). Bojack ultimately didn't deserve her forgiveness, but he certainly deserved her honesty. But she wasn't honest with him. She beat around the bush, and waited months to send him that letter, when she should have say him everything herself without waiting.
Honestly, when you view it from Hollyhock's perspective, I think one of the biggest roadblocks to her and Bojack's future relationship is the history between the two of them and Hollyhocks biggest trauma: overdosing. She overdosed because of his mom, who only lived with him because of Bojacks own fuckup. The first time she sees him after that, he triggers her PTSD and demonstrates that he is *also* irresponsible with drugs. Then she hears about Bojack indirectly giving young girl getting alcohol poisoning (and oh wow i wonder why Hollyhock would be deeply affected by a story about a young girl going to the hospital because an older person she shouldnt have trusted gave her something they shouldnt have), and then finally hears on the Biscuits interveiw that the time one of the Most Important People In His Life overdosed, he was too busy covering his own ass to save her life. Like, beyond his emotionally stunted personality or at times lack of regard for safety and his harshness towards others, and their complicated relationship as siblings, I can't imagine being a young girl whos overdosed once before in his presence, and hearing about somebody else who overdosed in front of him who died specifically because of the choices he made. Its not about whether Bojack is "cancelled" or has done problamatic things, or that he's got bad behaviour with women in specific, at least, how I see it. I think Hollyhock just realized that she *could have been Sarah Lynn* had circumstances been different and that's Absolutely terrifying. I think the reason she cuts Bojack off after the 2nd interview **specifically** because of learning how he handled someone else overdosing in front of him.
Yeah that had been exactly my takeaway too. If Bojack had known that Hollyhock was having an overdose, would he have been so quick to get her to the hospital? He didn't the first two times, leading to the death of someone he equated to a daughter figure. If he could do that to Sarah Lynn, why would Hollyhock (who he currently believes to be his daughter) be an exception?
@@teapartypenguin1353the saddest part is, _we_ don’t even know what he would have done. If they had been his pills that Beatrice was stealing instead of her own stash and Bojack found that out, would he still have called 911?
@@eileensnow6153Keep in mind, even when he does call 911 for Hollyhock he takes the time to flush a bunch of his pills, which is particularly cruel since he wasn't even sure what she had been taking. The hospital would have wanted to know what drugs she had access to.
@@rosesweetcharlotte oh god, that’s terrible, I had forgotten about that! Poor Hollyhock. I’m glad she has eight dads, so removing Bojack from her life didn’t deprive her of a positive male role model
I personally believe this is why I'm disappointed we didn't get another appearance from her., I would've loved some semblance of this observed from her during the shows run. If it was even just living her life, it would've been nice but her absence speaks volumes. I also think it comes from a personal place of wanting to learn how to continue to be better as a person and not become complacent. Empathy is not something we're born with, it's cultivated. And it's important to know when to hold it safely from others.
Toxic people have toxic views and justify other toxicity. I haven't seen a lot of people saying she didn't give him a chance or was wrong to leave but we all know there's people out there like that. Those are the same who demonize Diane.
@@rosesweetcharlotteI think it’s in the same vein as what he told Princess Caroline “I do love you, as much as I’m capable of loving anyone, which is never enough.” The difference being he never told Hollyhock how he really felt like that
What kills me is that he was finally trying to get better he went to rehab and tried to be a good teacher and everything he really was trying it just sucks that people had to bring up his past between that and losing her he relapsed and then ended up in jail. I get he did horrible shit but I feel like he was really trying to be a better person it sucks we didn't get to see that side of him once he got out😔
@@lexidemunhe had it coming. I loved that he paid for what he did to these women. He got what he deserved. Idc that he changed and deserved a chance. So did Sarah Lynn. And she died because of him.
Honestly. It sucks but she's literally a BRAND new "adult" and bojack has HEAVY, extensive, 40 year old+ baggage. She's just trying to not complicate her life when she's just learning to navigate it. I hope one day she's able to sit with him and discuss things when she's older and these things are so freakishly daunting. :( But we'll probably never know if that is meant to happen. Still. She's at a VERY busy time in her life--I never blamed her once for stepping away. We don't know what was in the letter so for all we know she may have said something to this effect: "I just can't have all this on me right now. You'll always be my brother, and I'm glad I met you--despite everything, thank you. But I need some distance." It could've been the SOFTEST drop in the world, but losing someone you love is never gonna feel good. :( no matter how gentle the crash was
It's interesting how the "Family is a sinkhole" comment he made in season 1 applies for this as well. Sometimes we can't afford to be around people because their toxic habits threaten to sink you down. This is specifically true with family.
I love Hollyhock, I relate to her a lot. Her story is so well written, and I'm actually glad we dont see exactly what she said in the note. It leaves it up to interpretation showing how there isn't a right or wrong way to distance yourself from someone.
Do people actually think she was in the wrong? She's totally valid for leaving Bojacks after all the shady shit he's done. I kinda like that about her character, she gets the fuck out when it starts to look down, so she never really gives him a chance to let her down. It just comes at a time when we feel a lot of sympathy for Bojack since his life is just starting to look up. But the whole point is that you can't just shove your mistakes under the rug
Honestly, i think the people who are mad at hollyhock for leaving are the people that only see bojacks' side of things and not the people he hurt. Since he was doing good at the somewhat end, most people would want hollyhock to forgive him and give him another shot when that's just not the case. just because your "good" now doesn't erase all the damage youve done and in bojacks case hollyhock can't just forget what he's done even if he turned over a new leaf.
I mean considering what happened to her, her friends and penny (i think thats her name, its been awhile since I seen the show), i dont blame her. Bojack is toxic and while im sure he did care about her, he still treated her like crap. She had every right to cut him off. Shes got her own issues and shes not responisble for his disfunction. I wish they couldve overcame their issues and become close siblings but lets be realistic, would ANY sane functioning person stick around if all they get in return is harm?
What gets me is how many people completely ignore that Hollyhock explicitly has PTSD from being drugged, and we see her suffer panic attacks and emotional flashbacks just from being in BoJack's house and being around alcohol. Hearing that BoJack abandoned not one, but TWO younger women who overdosed in his presence probably sent her into a major panic episode. And the worst part is that BoJack never even sympathized with this, he just guilt tripped her for throwing out his pills during his episode and then pulled the "well I have it worse" card. He gave up the chance to support her recovery, so why should she be obligated to support his when it's so heavily tied to triggering subject matter for her?
honestly she left and cut ties at the right time. she had every right to and could no longer ignore the red flags despite trying to keep a good relationship but the more she stayed around Bojack and heard about him the more she finds out about what kind of person he was and how it affected the people around him. it does not matter if they are family or that Bojack had changed what she saw (from her perspective) was still the distructive person she knew for a short time who did bad things and tried to cover them up as well as run away from all the problem, pain and damages he caused to other people .
Honestly, if people wanted to know how things would go for Hollyhock if she stayed, I would say to look at the other women in Bojack's life, especially Diane. Bojack pretty much put his life in her hands, and it's obvious by the end of the series that it took a huge mental toll on Diane. Like think about it, if Diane, a grown woman who has been part of Bojack's life for a few years now, couldn't handle dealing with him anymore to the point where she pretty much chooses to cut ties with him... how did people expect Hollyhock, a teenager whose had to hear the worst parts of her brother from complete strangers and victims, to stick around? It's unfair to expect her to be Bojack's lifeline when he's so toxic to be around. She tried to stay, but she saw his lack of accountability and that was just too much. Genuinely, I think some of the people that hate Hollyhock for this decision are projecting their own fears of being "so bad" that the people in their lives might walk away too.
I think even the singular reason of finding out about Penny was enough justification for Hollyhock to cut Bojack off. Penny back then was the same age Hollyhock was when she met Bojack. Of course it creeps her out that a man as old as her brother made a move on a girl her age and gave teens alcohol that led to a medical emergency. It is disgusting to think about. Even though I could sympathize with Bojack until the very end of the series, I completely understood every character who decided to cut Bojack out of their lives. They all had their reasons for it and I always appreciated that the series encourages setting boundaries with toxic people. Every character seems to learn what Bojack couldn't (at least with his mother): It's okay to walk away from another person if they hurt you, even if they are your friend, lover or family.
how is this even a question, bojack repeatedly tried to sleep with girls that were/he knew as little girls around the age of holly that he also viewed as daughter figures. not even to mention all the other abuse he puts upon other, he really was a threat to her safety. part of me wishes that bojack had just died or stayed in jail and we could witness the last episode with all the characters continuing there lives with hollyhock as the MC, showing how it is possible to break the cycle
I say she had understandable reasons to leave Bojack behind. Though...can we really call it breaking the cycle if the one who's stuck in said cycle dies or stays in jail? That's less "breaking the cycle" and more "reach rock bottom and remain stuck there"... ...unless you meant the cycle of downward spirals in the horseman family in general. Then yeah, Hollyhock basically avoided becoming like Bojack and Beatrice, not letting her problems result in her becoming a worse person...maybe.
@@TheDJman248I think they mean the cycle of people Bojack hurts. Yes we want him to get better, but he never actually got consequences for things he did other than his career ending. (which you could argue that it already kind of was? Since they refer to him as a 'has been' the whole show.) I mean he tried to/did groom, was partially responsible for a murder, etc. And all he got was early retirement
@kindwordsandgentlethoughts ah, then yeah, that's more or less what happened with Hollyhock cutting him off. In fact...Hollyhock rven went the extra mile by actually giving him a letter with an explanation. She didn't have to and could have ghosted him without a word, but she actually bothered to give him SOME explanation. That's...more than one could reasonably expect, to be frank. And true on Bojack not receiving legal consequences to the fullest extent...I suppose his personal consequences will have to do in the absence of that?
@@TheDJman248 I agree in that hollyhock didn't have to give an explanation. Actually I really loved her character and Bojack definitely traumatized her. Also yeah, I mean, here's this guy who is isolating himself from everyone because he's constantly looking for something from them and making terrible choices. And then he does receive consequences in his personal life, but it's just sad commentary on how the law doesn't apply to people with money and status. (To be honest I'm still working on developing my views on the justice system but) If you look at it objectively he should've went to court after the sarah lynn thing got revealed, AND you could argue even before that. Because there were SO MANY PEOPLE in his life who knew about his behavior and decided to protect him or not report him or because they felt they were involved or of his status
I genuinely thought that her choice to just send a letter to him was pretty reasonable. After all, after learning about what he did to Penny's friend l, she was pretty distant and it seemed (at least for me) that she wanted to believe he didn't do that but she still wanted to take time away from him to process things out for herself. But after Bojack's interview, which I'm pretty sure she saw it, it made things clear for her that she absolutely needed to distance herself from him and never talk to him so the best solution for her was a letter, not a text, not a phone call, just a letter so he wouldn't turn thing around in his favor, that he is a victim, that it wasn't what it seems, and that it was interviewer's fault to make him look bad. I would have done the same thing if it was revealed that a person who I, at least, trusted turned out to be such a horrible human being.
I remembered watching a video and got upset that he called Hollyhock "Coweredly" for leaving Bojack, but the thing is, Hollyhock did the right thing and separated herself from her brother whom she's heard horrible things about and still did those things while she was there, you have the right to separate yourself from a toxic or bad person even if they are you're family member
You make a lot of great points in this video, but I'm surprised you didn't mention what Hollyhock says herself: They barely know each other. Sure they may be siblings, but Bojack only showed up in her life what, a year ago? As much of a positive influence Hollyhock was on Bojack, at the end of the day she didn't owe him anything. As much as it hurt him and us the audience, she was 100% in the right to distance herself from him.
You know, everyone assumes that Hollyhock made that decision solely by herself, but let's look at the bigger picture. Imagine her dads watching that second interview with Biscuits & knowing that she also had a overdose on BoJack's watch. Can you imagine how horrified they were? Can't you imagine them reaching out to her immediately & actually taking action to make sure she doesn't communicate with BoJack in any way, shape, or form?
It was more important for Bojack to flex to his sis how his "F Others be Selfish" way of life was the greatest thing ever, over actually maintaining a healthy relationship with his last possible family member available, big fumble on his part
(My English is not very good, sorry for the grammatical errors) TW: mentions of death/overdose and spoilers for Bojack Horseman. I would really like to add another fact in point 2: bad memories... And it is the death of Sarah Lynn, stay with me, you will understand. Think about it this way: Remember that second interview with Braxby? Where he is finally exposed for his toxic pattern toward women, Sarah Lynn's death, and those 17 minutes? Imagine if Hollyhock saw that interview: she saw how her own half-brother was unable to defend himself against the accusation that he waited 17 MINUTES before calling an ambulance that could save her. I think Hollyhock probably immediately thought of her overdose incident... And yes, we all know it wasn't Bojack's fault and he called 911 immediately to save her, but Hollyhock doesn't know that. She is only aware that he let a girl die for the same reason. What would have happened in her head at that moment? Knowing that Bojack COULD let her die? And if not that... What if she had thought that he would want a more intimate approach? Gross, I know, but considering the situation with Sarah Lynn, maybe Hollyhock didn't want to take the risk. Sometimes I think a lot about this scenario... And that's why I justify hers distancing, for her own good. Even if they are simple "What would happen...?" Would she really wait for one to be truly fulfilled before walking away? A little bonus if you're still reading: Hollyhock holds a special place for me, not only because she was almost my age when she appeared in the series, but it was thanks to her that I took courage and distanced myself from my own toxic family member. Maybe not as bad as Bojack, but with that thought that "I'm not going to change." Now, I am happier and feel at peace with myself. Thanks Hollyhock
Look I understand why people would say she should have done it differently but… She didn’t owe Bojack shit. He actively hurt her and people around her and they literally don’t know each other. They might as well be strangers so why should she stay for someone who is as shitty as Bojack when Bojack doesn’t give her anything back?
The only thing Bojack gave her back was the whole "F Others be Selfish" mentality and looking where that got him Hollyhock was smart to cut him off her life.
I can never understand why people would think she's in the wrong. It might be because shes my favorite character and I see myself in her as I'm her age. I really relate to having to let someone toxic go for your own best, hence why I 100% get why she would leave him!
For those who think she done dirty to him just think for a moment, how you are so sure Hollyhock would be fine by keeping Bojack in her life? What if he does something worse than that time he tried to sleep with Charlotte's daughter?
That's the thing, I can see Bojack getting into an incestuous relationship with her. Oh, not a sexual one, but one where he is dependent on her. He would have ruined her
He definitely wouldnt do it, but her life would still suffer having him around, Bojack´s biggest lesson to the chicks trying to fix him is "Be Selfish F others" and they do it perfectly to him when they cut him off their lives.
Even if he was a good person who she could trust, nobody is obligated to stay in anyone's life and you don't need to justify distancing yourself from anyone
Every time the F bomb is dropped it means Bojack has lost a relationship beyond repair, Which means while we have NO idea what the letter says other than knowing what it was about (leaving Bojack) we DO know it says the F word in it.
@@kindwordsandgentlethoughts The first one is during Bojack's fight with Herb, then when he's caught with Penny by Charlotte (Charlotte drops it), next is Todd (and his relationship with Bojack changes significantly after that), and then there's Gina after he chokes her. The F bomb is saved for the moment when the relationship is truly destroyed.
I’m sure it will never never happen, but I would love to get a spin off about hollyhock. She has a lot of the same emotional baggage that Bojack does. Plus we could explore she feels being tangentially related to him, and watching him rise and fall and public opinion through her eyes. We could get to see if she ever gets a relationship with her birthmother. I feel like there’s so much left to explore the Bojack Horseman universe.
I would have done the same thing as Hollyhock if I was her. Bojack Horseman has hurt so many people & he never learns from his mistakes. He's too much of a narcissist to improve himself. He was gonna hurt her eventually. This is just self presercation on her part.
When I was younger watching the show, I really sympathized I lot for Bojack because my mother was a recovered addict. But after growing and learning about the world and narcissists, I now have a very specific loathing for the character and also my mother who was never recovering from her addiction at all 😑
ok let me tell you a thing if there are people thinking that she was wrong for cutting out bojack... don't make a video explaining that she wasn't people who need to be explained why objectively correct decision is right won't learn it ever
It could win some people over or at the very least get them to see our viewpoint. And if not it can help fans like us stay sane amongst all the Bojack apologists
Thank you!! Been saying this for years!! Hollyhock owes Bojack NOTHING. And that includes her presence in his life. People expect Hollyhock to be there for Bojack unconditionally, which is such an incredibly unfair expectation to put on a teenage girl that he not only traumatized, but nearly killed with his negligence. She has a right to her boundaries and limits. She is allowed to remove people who are negatively impacting her life. I will defend this young woman until the day I perish!!
Are there people who say she was wrong? I’ve never met any. Bojack recovery is not Hollyhock’s responsibility. I love Bojack as a character but he is toxic monster who more than once put Hollyhock in danger… and then she learns “that’s just the tip of the iceberg” It is sad for Bojack because Hollyhock is the only stable family he has but Hollyhock has a stable family without him, and he brings her down. It would be nice if in the future the two could reconnect but her walking away made perfect sense.
I'm surprised you didn't emphasize how she gave Bojack so many more chances than she should've. I also think that it was great writing for her to confront him in a letter instead of in person, since she is probably afraid of how he would react
It hurt to watch Bojack read Hollyhock's letter, and it sucked it was one of the things that sent him into a spiral. But those are the consequences of his actions that accumulated over time. The fact he left Pete and their drunk friend alone at the hospital when he, the adult, was there as a chaperone. Everyone has the right and choice on whether or not to cut off people from their lives. And as much as I felt bad for Bojack, I couldn't blame Hollyhock for cutting things off. She thought long and hard about this, and I'm sure it must've been a hard decision for her. I always wondered if season 7 wasn't cancelled, we would've seen things from her perspective. I feel like so much of the people who blame Hollyhock for Bojack's spiral are the same people who hate aggressively on Diane and don't see the incident with Penny is so bad since it was stopped "in time" (never mind it was her mother who stopped it, not Bojack).
You could make an animated show about DAN SCHNEIDER or even JEFFERY EPSTEIN and people would still end up sympathizing with them if they were the main character. Honest to god, most people don't have media literacy skills or their own grasp on morality/ethics. They hear something, believe it, then defend it because they heard it first. Bojack Horseman and, funnily enough, Starship Troopers are proof of this. Because we see it from their point of view and somehow only register their thoughts and feelings.
Bojack is one of those characters that you hope would do better but just never does. Hollyhock was right to leave his life. Yes, it's sad and I wished for both of them that there could have been a happier ending but he had shown too much bad to trust any of the good in him.
Im living with my older brother right now. I disagree with him on a lot of stuff, but i know he'd never harm me. But if i found out he had been involved in the abuse (and a death) of multiple innocent women and girls, i would not want him in my life anymore.
I like to think that Hollyhock would have eventually come back to BoJack’s life if had had read the letter sooner and stopped trying to call her. It because he could not respect her desire for distance that shut off any chance for her to want to come back to his life.
One reason why this relationship collapsed is because Bojack tends to confuse grand gestures for growth. Which makes sense for someone who’s understanding of love comes from TV shows. In those the characters always do one grand thing to show that they have changed and then the credits roll. This is what he always does. Instead of coming clean that he did terrible things and but still tries to be better, he does a big grand thing as if that makes it ok . He found Hollyhocks mother and didn’t even want her to know he found her. This is what someone in a TV show would do and then everything is fine. He got sober for Sarah Lyn and so on
I feel like any hate she would get (which idk how) comes from how she never gave bojack a chance to explain himself on all the things she heard… not that it wouldn’t really have mattered. I can’t remember if it showed her watching his interviews
I think that's why she had to go. Bojack would have lured her back in by explaining everything. She knows this, that's why she had to cut him off before he could.
My mom had family members like this. It's not my story so I can't get into details. All I can say was that she and her sister loved a certain family member...but they were not a good person. Even with all the love they had, that person had a lot of baggage that just spilled out onto everyone and everything around them either intentionally or unintentionally. Sometimes for your sanity and health you gotta step back. It's not easy no one said it would. But staying cannot only breed resentment but also hurt everyone in the long run
Family that teaches you constantly to "be Selfish F others" even to other family members deserves to end up alone, you can only build a family under respect and some selfless behavior, which unfortunately Bojack lacked big time.
I think back on the joke from futurama where the ship has 6,000 hulls, and when they get breached fry says "If only they had built it with 6,001 hulls". Socially speaking I think a lot of people have this mindset. When we start to feel down, when we eventually have to face the reality of loneliness, or when we just in general feel incomplete we create this narrative in our heads that a single good connection would have saved us. That our lives wouldn't be so sad and empty if we had only had one more person in them. I saw myself in bojack the most in this instance. When he was so desperate to have hollyhock in his life that he gave everything, only to realize she didn't need him nearly as badly as he needed her. An important thing to realize tho is that much like the 6,000 hulls, 1 more usually isn't as simple of an answer as you'd like to believe. The dozens of other friends you already have, the connections you already have built, you already understand that they won't fix you. Atleast not on their own. Instead of accepting your own responsibility, you search for that 6,001st hull. The last saving grace. The more distant this person is, the more energy you allow yourself to put into them. Because once you achieve their friendship, you start to expect the big change that never comes. Hollyhock would never have fixed bojack. No one person could have. But he wanted an easy solution, and she represented that.
I remember I used to watch Shady Doorag's videos about Bojack all the time. But as soon as I saw the video where he called Hollyhock "cowardly" for cutting off Bojack, I pretty much dropped his channel immediately. It just felt so gross to me. (not to mention all the other awful takes that were in that video) Seriously, I just can't understand why someone would even think that.
I find the people who think she's in the wrong are the same people who never had toxic parents/ family ties and never had to cut a relative out of their life for their own happiness and well being. So they don't get how good it was for her to cut off Bojack for her own happiness.
As much as this video might seem to be unsaid, As a young adult with a adult odler brother that acts similar to bojack. I really needed this. I listened to it when it premiered,and im now listening to it again while im basically escaping him right now. I absolutely hate that i can now fully relate to where shes coming from. I already loved her character in general. But watching again,seeing how she tries her best to cope, and empathize and excuse with his seedy and down-right dangerous situations he gets her in when all she wants is a Big Brother. Its 2 am and im literally packing up to leave in like-6 hours or so. I can't be around him. He put me through a traumatic event and basically left me alone to deal with it. Its like hes annoyed that i went through something he cant "one-up". Its like he just...left me to be hurt and he didn't even care enough to notice.Hell he's practically rageful that im not "normal" now. Ive literally worked my ass off to help HIM before MYSELF. ENDLESSLY. And he still has no idea why im cutting him off. We both have to make the safest decision for ourselves, even if it hurts like hell. You know what's kinda ironic? I begged him to watch this show with me because it helped me so much.He was so much like Bojack and thought he couldn't (more like shouldn't) change, he never gave me the time of day to watch it. I don't need to leave a letter. I need to just leave.
@@Mitzinomi A lot of characters in this show are not likable. But Hollyhock is not one of them. Best character I think is Charlotte the deer but that may just be me playing favorites because she reminds me a lot of myself. Princess Carylon isn't likeable at first (to me) beucase she's loud and bossy, but then once you get into her backstory and how the only thing she wants in life is to be a mother, you do kinda feel sorry for her. She got bonus points in my eyes for adopting a baby instead of going through fertility treatments. I was adopted and it always makes me happy when I see adoption in media not used as a joke. There needs to be a spinoff about Princess Carylon raising Ruthie and stepping in as a mentor to Dianne who's called it quits on her depressing autobiography, takes PC's advice and works on Ivy Tran which becomes a best seller and is one of Ruthie's favorite books.
I agree with this 100% I had my own Bojack and I had to cut them from my life. As somebody who was in Hollyhock's place, I can tell it wasn't easy and is a very painfull choice, because you still care for Bojack, but you know this Bojack not only doesn't care about you in the same way you do for them, they will harm you and drag you down with them. I can say I felt a lot better afterwards.
