Why I Don't Like Helixes 

Anyone else unsure of how they’ve landed here?

Really appreciate your honest assessment of helixes, and making this video.

Thanks for all the great thoughts on Helix's! I am looking at building a room for my trains and would like to go from the table to above the doors for a boarder track. This video gave me some good things to think about!

I love the way model trains make this older gentleman's face light up. You can practically see his 12 year old self shining through.

This is a serious hobby. Wow. This guy nails it and is passionate for sure to go to such lengths for his hobby. Great job sir.

I have never owned a model train. I have never had any interest in model trains. I have never watched a video about trains, models, or model trains. But somehow RU-vid's magic algorithm decided your channel is just what I needed. So I just sat through a video about your passionate and burning hatred of helices. I can now add a checkmark to a mental list of "things what I done." Just thought you'd like to know.

Excellent training. Cheers!

RU-vid just gave me your channel as a suggestion and I enjoyed your humor and your content. You have a nice layout. I used to run HO 35 years ago so I subscribed. Cheers!

I don't model railroad, nor will I ever - it's just not for me. That said, I love the craftsmanship of the hobby, and will occasionally watch a RU-vid video, just to enjoy the great work that people do. An extra bonus is learning that this hobby, like so many others, has its own set of opinions and fights. The homebrew boat building community fights over bow thrusters, software people fight over indenting style and language choice...and railroaders have strong opinions on helixes. I love it!

Hi from New Zealand. until moving cities last year, I was part of an active US HO modelling group operating ever two weeks across six (and occasionally a seventh) layouts six of which had helices. These layouts simply would not function without them so despite all the issues you have "correctly" identified, unless there is the space for gradients, the moral of the story is they are an essential necessity... I do enjoy your YT clips, thanks for taking the time to put them together.

Nice video, interesting and I understood the humour in suggesting that "the trains running the eastern helix take an incredible time". Thanks for showing your hobby.

Very interesting video. Thanks for posting this.

I didn't know this was a thing. Glad i stopped by, very interesting hobby.

I have no idea why this was recommended, but i am glad it was.

I am always impressed with people who have the creativity and stamina to design and construct such a complicated layout. The best I could do was use a 4x8 sheet of plywood when I was a kid to design mine.

Thanks so much for pointing out the issues, when utilizing a helex. (I've been strongly tempted to utilize a helex, but I think I'm going to live with two Separate levels, or use a regular long incline, with just one or two helex loops). Thank you so much for your feedback on this topic!

It took me a moment to realize that this was about model trains (which Im rather clueless about) because I just came from about a dozen or so roller coaster videos and clicked on this because I couldnt imagine someone not liking the helix element on a coaster ;)

Are these trains really small or are you really big?

Hi Roy. I for one appreciate your video. I have started my own N scale collection years ago but have not been able to start any kind of layout. I like to listen to advise of model railroaders so that some day I may have at least a modest layout of my own. Thank you.

when i was a kid my dad would take me to our towns model railroad club. I still remember all the great guys like yourself who made it all possible. thanks to all model railroad guys everywhere!

Man, this was a weird recommendation, but I gotta say, I'm glad I stayed and watched it all, as it turned out to be quite the niche yet fascinating subject!

Could you have a steeper gradient if the trains only ever go downhill on it?

Thank you for your views on helixes. Back in the 80s I had a long, obscured tunnel section which had a small open section for track cleaning. I was a nightmare. Derailments and damage to consists was always a possibility. OUT IT WENT. Simplicity is best, don't stress.

Lovely video, thank you for making it!

What a cool little video, this makes me miss the big HO system I had with my Father way, way, way back in the day.

Just caught your channel for the first time this morning and I like it. I presume that you take the time to script your presentations because I don't observe the stammering, ums, and long pauses mid-sentence that drive me to distraction on other channels. So, if you do this unscripted, my hat's off to you for your natural talent. Anyway: I appreciate your work and am learning from you.

I built two 1% grade connection tracks off the north end of the junction . Both are off the Butler subdivision main within the Butler junction limits to access the Rocky Run subdivision for either northbound or southbound moves to or from the 2nd level which work well and are nicely integrated into the layout . Just tried to keep it simple....

nice work on the track, great video.

I'm not even mad the algorithm is wonky and this showed up in recommended.

"Uncouplings and derailments tend to occur on the hardest to reach places of the layout." Oh, how I WISH you had known my father back in the 1950s!!! Daddy bought OS model trains before the birth of his first two children, obviously expecting boys. He got daughters instead (and, for the third baby, he chose NOT to buy a model train to break the jinx, but got a daughter when she was born, too). Those two trains formed the basis of our Christmas tree display each year. Every single uncoupling/derailment occurred at the back corner behind the tree which was just about impossible to reach. I'm laughing now at the memory of his swearing and my mother--a bit more agile and less upset--coming into the lay-out covered living room to assist him in getting the derailed/uncoupled cars out of that corner and onto the long straightaway at the front of the display. Thanks for your vlog and for reviving a childhood memory. (By the way, I bough my son an HO model train for his childhood--but I waited until after he was born to buy it for him--no jinx).

I love your videos! I am a freelance HO scale modeler and my highest inventory of roadnames is CSX, behind that is UP, and third is Amtrak

What I loved is the portal at the top of Soldiers Summit, between Price and Spanish Fork, UT, I built a representation of that Portal using n-Gauge track etc. back in 1980, I gave it to my Son for Christmas. He didn't appreciate it and my work went by the wayside. I was a pretty fair modeler, but since he was never interested, it stopped. Keep it up.

This was actually funnier than I though it would be! As a helix builder, I can relate to some of those six reasons (mainly, nos. 4 and 5). Some of the other reasons (mainly, nos. 3 and 6) are actually the reasons why I like helices, whereas the remainder of the lot are no issues with me - not yet, anyway. A helix is a great challenge and it can occasion great moments of joy when it has been build and trains are finally running on it. P.S. But where are three of the trains going into the helix? Four went in, only one cam out!

The Helix is also a track eater. How many feet of flex track did you use on it?

Thank you for pointing out the issues with helixs as you set lift out mountain, maybe removable plexiglass windows to be able to reach in.

Great camerawork at 10:11... smooth and immersive, Roy!

Remove fascia,install removable sliding doors,or flip up covering in wood or glass. You need access from outside for trouble shooting.

By the way, a train lift is a tough thing to build as the trains get longer. A 20-car HO (steam era) freight train is at least 10 feet long, and 20 cars is the approximate minimum to give that "mile-long freight train" impression we North American railroaders love. A 12 foot train-lift, with counterweights, is going to weigh a lot if you make it from aluminium! Incidentally, it is easy to put in physical gates attached to the bridge as it lifts and lowers so none of your trains take a fatal scale 600 foot plunge to the floor. I have never built either type, but apparently it is possible to just hinge one end, and rotate the bridge. However, that also requires well-planned vertical curve so the trains can negotiate the passage on and off the bridge. I recommend studying UK model techniques closely, because they model a prototype that historically ran relatively short trains, compared to North America, Europe, etc. That's why UK modelers can use fiddle yards, train lifts, all kinds of tricks to enjoy model railroading in their smaller homes. UK steam-era railroads also used a lot of tender locomotives so the steamers can be run in both directions without being turned. The Great Western Ry. even developed a fleet of steam-powered bi-directional passenger trains ("Autotrains")), where the "driver" could run the train from the front coach as the steam engine pushed the train from the "rear"; i.e., GWR did with steam power what we now call "push-pull" in today's diesel-powered trains. The steamer could also be run in the middle of the train with controls on both ends. So anyway, their prototype is model-genic, as the late John Armstrong (1920-2004) pointed out. * * * BTW, my theory about why a 10-15 foot freight train (8 car passenger train) looks "right" on a model railroad is that this is enough length for us to not be able to see the engine and last car at the same time. The experience of watching a train is seeing the engine, then watching all the cars go by, until the caboose, pusher engine, last car comes into view. Then we usually turn our heads and watch the tail end disappear. That 30 car "drag freight" looks great because we get to experience the joy of train-watching in model form. Another problem is that no matter how much space (and money) is available, model railroaders compress space to give the impression the train is going somewhere. It is one thing to see the locomotive pop out of Tunnel 4 while the caboose is crossing Bear Creek trestle. It is quite another when the head end power is threading the alpine splendor of Threadneedle Canyon while the caboose is still out in the Tabletop Desert. Having just said that, a 10 car O Scale train (or 4 car passenger train) looks too short on a model railroad, even though it is the length of a 20 car HO Scale train. I think it is because our brain counts up to 10 (or 4) too easily. I think that one of many reasons why pre-1960 modeling is popular is that a train of 20 boxcar red and black freight cars tends to lull the brain as it unconsciously counts cars, compared to a 15 car string of brightly-colored modern cars. Have you ever noticed how a model unit coal train or unit COFC/TOFC train seems longer than a train of unique cars, i.e., the local way-freight? Ironically, if you see a "full-scale" train on a club railroad--say 80 cars or more--it seems to go on forever and a day. Not only is that kind of boring to watch, but all kinds of real-world "train dynamics" issues appear like broken couplers, slack that runs in at the wrong time, or just the whole train tips itself over on a sharp curve. We want our trains to operate like the prototype, but that does not include trains that snap in two or pull themselves over while circling a minimum radius curve. No doubt the real railroads wish they could keep their trains 20-30 cars long and still be competitive. LOL Hope that helps you enjoy your model railroad.

Roy, you're awesome. Love the layout!

I've always been amazed with scale train sets like these but unfortunately never seem to have the time, space, or capital to get into it. This is the first video I've seen and I'm sure I'll subscribe

You can install a video camera inside the helix or even several to monitor the trains. If you use several, maybe cheap webcams and led strips?

I like the helix because it does make the train disappear for a while. One knows not where it will emerge if one is a new viewer of the layout. Part of the fun is taken away on completely open layouts.

I've been planning and have thought about this very thing. You were right about UN prototypical look of this arrangements. It looks too mechanical for a model which we know for aesthetically pleasing eyes. However I think that the amount of time that you've taken with your layout and the fact that the engineering is sound leads for a sort of mysterious time gap, like where did it go. It obviously works. It looks great and like I said has that mystique about it. Like my grandpa always chanted while I was trashing a working bicycle. " if it works don't mess with". I looks very good to me and I only hope that if I finally am able to start mine after 35 years of collecting all grades of train, track, models, scenics that it turns out as good as yours did! Good luck!

I liked the detail of the hopper car at the end of the tanker train. That shows a serious familiarity with railroad operations.

You guys realize that the RU-vid Recommendation Algorithm is more intelligent than you by several orders of magnitude? Just accept it's decisions and watch the video.

I like the bridge idea. Maybe even a draw bridge if it impedes foot traffic

Very interesting. Have a nice day now.

Thanks for the video. Nice layout.

Make some cutouts in the helix fascia and cover them with curtains when you don't need to access the track. This way they are more accessible than they are when you have to crawl under the table, and they are still concealed when you don't need to see the unsightly helix (which should be most of the time). And the curtains can be as plain or as fancy as you want to blend in (or not blend in) with your scenery.

Why am I watching this video? I don't even own miniature trains

I’m planning to build some small helixes into my small layout. I have very little space and I want to incorporate a helix inspired by the bernina express spiral element so I can add a viaduct bridge inspired by the Landwasser. This is very informative so Thankyou!

thats a really nice track there buddy love the video !

You mentioned the difficulty of cleaning the track in your helix. I suggest that you design and construct a special rail car for that purpose, and then patent and sell it and become rich and build yourself a BIGGER layout that needs no helix.

According to the southern transportation documentary Dukes Of Hazard, you just have the trains _jump_ to upper and lower decks... preferably while a horn toots Dixie

Was looking for a video that explained what a helix is. This was perfect! :)

Excellent. All great points. My solution would be to have a hinged bridge that acts like a bascule bridge allowing access to the center of the layout without any "duck unders". Simple is good.

I can't wait until I retire.

A well presented video and editorial. Further, your track, trains, and scenery look quite nice. I don't truly get your beef with helixes, however. 1) At the speed your trains are traveling I would imagine they would reach the staging level within 40 seconds. If that's too long for you we might conclude you're a little impatient! Helixes can make us feel as if we are train chasing if we use our imagination: out in the field we sometimes cannot access trackage and must push on to the next site where we can see our chase once again. In these instances sometimes we can hear the train (at distance) but still can't get close to it. Our model railroad helixes perform exactly the same duty. Sip your beverage of choice for 30 seconds. 2) Running trains often keeps track (yes, even helix trackage) quite clean. I haven't cleaned track in years. 3) If your track in your helix is bulletproof as you advise, you should be experiencing zero derailments. The only time I see the inside of any of my helixes is when I'm curious to study a spider or two. 4) Yes, cutting access windows in the fascia to view a helix can be an improvement, as you have done on your western helix. This is an opportunity to make a portion of one revolution a shadowbox scene of sorts: deepen the inside radius portion to make a deeper, fully scenicked scene. Ask me how I know! Use your imagination. 5) Throw out most "rules" about building a helix. I am an HO modeler. I have four helixes on my layout. Each utilizes 22" radius sectional track (easy laying within the confines of the helix superstructure - it's pre-curved, not unwieldy like flextrack), and my grade is 3.5%, thus 3.25" of elevation change per revolution. Therefore my footprint is a 4' circle. Most would tell you this is insanity. I will tell you trains operate flawlessly at any speed (even lightning fast, when required to stage trains) in either direction. Forget about how goofy your locos look on this radius, and that your long cars will overhang unrealistically - who's going to see it? The spiders, that's all. I'm not knocking your opinion, I'm merely offering a counter argument. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. Keep railroading!

Im glad this was in my recommend videos. I feel like this is what I'll be like in about 50-60 years. Great content 👌 👌 👌 👌

Thank you for a candid review of your own creation based on firsthand experience! We were discussing helixes in a FB model railroad group and most comments clearly showed lack of experience, promoting the poster to go for it. Did I mention he wants to connect two floors. I stopped posting my concerns when another poster basically said...anyone could do it! I love trains and my layout is big, including a planned hole in the wall for my two-room layout; however, I have enough space to have two levels, 4 inches apart, one track going thru the other as part of the scene or inconspicuously as possible, with a very moderate incline. I cannot imagine the engineering challenge to go to thru the floor above. I also could not imagine trying to sell my home in the future, explaining why one bedroom has a hole in the floor. Thanks again. I am glad someone has their feet on the ground. BTW, let me add, I fully agree, the negatives far outweigh the positive.

Nice presentation! Thank you. Even though a helix might have the dilemmas you mentioned, yet it can also still be unavoidable for layouts with multiple operating levels and not enough room for gradual straight-line descents and ascents. I see no difficulty with leaving the helix open and visible: kids won't care that it might not be normal in real-life operations and adults will understand why it's being used on a layout. Plus helixes are indeed found in the real world - the Swiss have (at least) one that I'm aware of (although it's not a perfect circle), and who knows where else they might be found. So leave it open and maybe even dress it up with scenery, etc. (or not) - have fun with it! Either that or make sure the helix is accessible for cleaning, repairs, and derailments. You might even consider adding a third (and fourth?) operating level to your layout! Enjoy!

I am actually building a helix due to the small amount of space I have and I actually WANT the train to be gone for some amount of time. I have a 3.5’ x 6’ layout and I am planning to add two helix’s to each side. This will allow me to run multiple trains on my small layout and have some disappear for some time allowing other to use the layout and still run and have many trains on the track at one time. Below the table where the helix connects I am going to add on a large yard to house different trains to dispatch and head up the helix to the layout.

I tend to like bridges - but I don't have to build or maintain it. Excellent video. -. I notice in your final scene that the lost trains finally arrived at the staging yard. Your humor is appreciated.

Nice layout! I want to build that type of mountains, like mid-western, desert-like landscape.

Informative

Great googley moogley. This video blew up! Congrats.

That is a very informative and understandable video, thank you sir!

Just liked and subscribed to your channel. You make some good, hard, and informative points. And it would take me some time of constant think tanking to figure out the algorithm for the problem.

Why is this is my recommended

When the trains enter the helix, they are temporarily transported to a magical world, where trains are the most intelligent species. They go there to mate. Once their mating is complete, they return to your home at a speed that suits them.

Really amazing thumbs up

Seems like the same thing happens on my layout, I model in HO, and still use my childhood AHM diesels and some new Bachman and Athearn power also. Nick

Have you considered putting a FPV (first person view) camera system on your trains? You could watch from the inside of the trains and enjoy/monitor your trains.

I’m just glad the trains finally made it. I was getting concerned.

Always loved this scale of model trains!

I’m not a model railroader ,but I do enjoy watching them,so....... I would definitely make the mountain removable, and the side panels (all panels) as well. Looks like a nice set up you’ve got. 🙂👍

I would put something like 2 hinged doors into the grey wall, so you can expose the trains for any visitors and keep them closed when you're alone and don't want to see the helix. And if you still like to build a bridge, why not that too? Just make it so that a train has the option to drive straight onto the bridge, or turn left into the helix tunnel. I really wouldn't want to waste the work that went into the helix. With the addition of a bridge, you can avoid using it (less maintenance needed?) and alternate between using it and using the bridge, in case of guests.

Wholesome content

I have never even considered watching a video on this topic because it has never occured to me to find it interesting. It is an enigma to me why it was in my recommended, although this im not sure why but i found this to be quite interesting and i found this to be a really good video

Good videos with excellent points. It'll be additional work, but there should be a clever way to have a part of the helix swing out so you can enter it where needed. It'll be tricky to ensure all tracks are aligned when closing the helix, but it doesn't hurt to dream about it.

Probably controversial, but I actually like the look of helixes. Then again, I'm not necessarily a model railroader, more of a train enthusiast that likes model trains. I found plans for a small n-gauge track that has 2 prominant helixes incorporated to allow for more running room in a small space, and I absolutely love it!

One thing: Always have the track going up be on the outer side of the helix, there the gradient is smaller. Here in Switzerland even the real railroads do that. As they drive on the left side, most curves are going right. A almost helix in real life can be found here (46.4250745 8.9079617)

I saw your video about the time I started my new layout (HO, sorry)! It scared me, but I proceeded anyway. Built two! The anchor each end of my horseshoe, two level layout. I have the least problem with them than any other area of the layout. Maybe because I took so much care in building, laying track and testing as I went. The biggest problem I had initially was uncoupling at the top and bottom when rigid engine couplers rode above or below car couplers at the change in rise. Once solved, no further problems. I agree with all of your arguments, but still keep my helixes!

I wandered around in the yard several times during the years we lived in Evanston, brought back the years before.

Why is this in my recommended videos, and why am I watching it

I really like the Amtrak train. Very nice.

I hadn't considered cleaning as a hindrance to using helix. Food for thought, thank you.

What’s the radius on your helix? I’m looking into options, but I run 60s-1990. I have 89’ tofc trains and dd40x’s so I’m trying to make sure it’s something that will be sufficient.

I feel like the helix could be replaced with a long grade, which can add lots of scenery space along the tracks for hills, trees, backdrop buildings, etc.

Ugh, it's a little spooky that the trains just disappear like that, time slip stuff

Oh and.... An interesting video btw. And I note, after my lenghty addressing of the helix issue and my solutions, that *Laurence Perkins* has pretty much the same idea. Which is nice to see. An elevator, or 'Engine Shed Lift' would solve a lot of grief, backache, head/knee injuries and clock watchingt....

Roy, I have considered the issues you presented and come up with a solution for my multi level layout. I am using loops at the ends of long inclines against the back of different levels of my layout, this allows single loops at each end that can have landscape modeled. Though the ceiling is a bit low to the next loop for me, that all depends on the length of the yard level back wall and how much slope one can fit. So the basic idea is a 270 turn and running along the back of the layout in front or behind the scenery. These long gradients can have flat scenery behind the track and a short area of scenery in front, and one can see the trains progress. Reverses at each end, and with enough slope in between each end turn can be a modeled horseshoe layout area. Either a normal horseshoe or an over/under tehachapi style loop. The turns at the end drop the grade enough it can proceed under itself keeping it all flat along the back wall. So instead of a helix a narrow shelf layout inside the main layout. You can use the sections of a preexisting helix to build it, nice start since the curves are perfect you just need like 270 degrees of a turn. Most of the track is just straight all along the back of the yard, just 2-3 inches wide. If its 2% to drop 8 inches, it will be the same length of track and time you just will be able to play with it and model it instead of the helix issues of being so darn unrealistic and difficult. Some areas could be wider and more modeled, like 4-6 inches and a little station or something. That is what I plan on doing to have more stops for my passenger trains, since a single siding and platform and flat image of the station will fit nicely in a narrow space. In the process of building this style multi level layout, sawdust everywhere and tools and lumber spread about, and will have an update on it soon.

My advice... make access to the helix 100% all around by not having any permanently fixed fascia and instead use 'magnetically' mounted/removable panels where the fascia would be 👌

I'm not a train model enthusiast, but I love technical problems and making solutions for them.. First.. Derailments and simplicity. I'm not sure how your power distribution looks, but i'd assume you have multiple power supplies for different sections or runs of track? If this is the case, you can simply place an ammeter inline with the power supply for the helix. This will tell you several things.. It will tell you if the cars derailed (current drops to 0A), it can tell you if the trains crashed in the helix (current increases substantially as an engine tries motoring through the wreckage. And last.. It can possibly indicate a dirty track and even WHERE you have dirty track (Current draw is inconsistent and has a bunch of spikes from engines connecting and disconnecting from the track.) Furthermore.. Not a legitimate model car, but, it is possible that you can clean track by abrasive or chemical means using a car to do it for you within the helix. It doesn't have to be manual labor. ESPECIALLY because you have a motive force (The engine) and you have an electric track. For chemical cleaning, you can make a tank car an actual tank car where you put some cleaner in the tank which can feed a piece of felt, which is dragged along the track in front of the tank car and you can even add some drying/scrubbing pads to the rear of the car for a multiple pass cleaning. You also have an electrified track. this means you can fit a soda ash car with metal wheels and electric pads that you can connect to a drive motor. You can use this motor to drive a pair of buffing wheels that ride atop the tracks with minimal force, be sand paper, scotch brite, or even a pair of small buffing wheels. attach this car to the back of an engine and drag it through the helix. if it is setup properly, it would be a very low effort maintenance cleaning of the helix, or the rest of the track for that matter.. or, you just buy a track cleaning car for $40.. LOL

very nice layout!!!!

Roy I have a question I want to use kato track which switches did you use on your yard and how did you determine your radius in kato track without purchasing a bunch of track

I plan on having multiple custom helixes under my layout so I can have the train disappear for long periods of time. I don’t like the idea of having my train constantly being viewable on the layout and having it loop around every 60 seconds. I think making the trains disappear in the hidden helix is more prototypical since I have a small layout.

Wow. How did I find this? RU-vid changed its algorithms I think. Wonderful. Since you asked, I'd probably go with the bridge.

I am fixing to build a n scale layout that operates almost like the Paducah & Louisville line in Kentucky. I have about 60ft of wall to build on, I was thinking about a helix to make a loop, so I dont have to run from one yard to the other yard back and forth. I am really stuck on what to do.

Roy, I certainly agree with some of your comments and when I designed my layout I purposely put my helix in my staging area for the reason that I would be able to access it and not have to frame it in with fascia. I guess a helix is a modelers choice but overall I am happy with mine on my Corn Country Rails. -Tony