Why I Don't Wear a Tie in Court

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Scott Holmes, a Quaker lawyer from Durham, North Carolina, felt led to stop wearing a tie in the courtroom. This is his story of exploring that leading and its implications.
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Read this more of Scott’s story in this essay: “Taking off My Tie: The Adventures in Fashion of a Quaker/Lawyer”
fdsj.nl/taking-off-my-tie
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Transcript:
I’m Scott Holmes. I’m a member of Durham Friends Meeting. When I describe who I am, I guess it’s parent, spouse, Quaker, lawyer. I don’t know in what order, but I am a trial lawyer and that’s a very peculiar group of people to be. It means in my work, I had to wear a suit, and for many years I had to wear a tie. That always felt uncomfortable in a sense of my yearning to connect with folks. Immediately I was shutting myself off to most of the people in the world.
Not Clear With the Tie
There came a point in my spiritual journey where I had been to North Carolina Yearly Meeting and I had hung out with some old-time Quakers who were doing plain-dress. It planted a seed in my mind that I was not clear with the tie.
The first few days at work I had this kind of nauseous feeling when I put on the tie, like, “this isn’t resting easy with me.” I thought maybe I should start thinking about asking for a clearness committee and talking to people who know more about this and making sure this is really a spiritual thing and not just some kind of a bug or a stubborn, bone-headed idea I’ve got.
So I put the tie on, wore it, but it was kind of heavy, and then the next day it came time to put on the tie and it was kind of heavier. By the third day, I was like, “You know what, I don’t have time for a clearness committee. I’m just not going to put on a tie today, I’ll just experiment with it and see how it goes.”
Leaving the Tie at Home
And it went great! It was awesome. I was in State Court. I was in some lower courts where I’ve been pretty much all my professional life. All the lawyers knew me, all the judges knew me. “Oh, he forgot his tie,” or I don’t know what they thought. But no one asked me any questions. I got a complete free pass, not having a tie in court. I was like, “this is good. This is great! Maybe I can pull this off and nobody will notice! That would be so cool!”
But then I had Federal Court the next day and that judge, he stopped court immediately and called me up and said, “Have you EVER been in Federal Court?”
Encountering Resistance
He took a recess to give me time to think about this and he said, “We’ll see what you really think and we’ll come back on the record here after lunch. We’ll take it up at that time.” And the impression was, “You need to go get a tie on.”
I had another encounter with a judge who made some kind of comment when we were arguing about it that, “Well if you were wearing a dress I wouldn’t let you appear in this court,” and I was like, “Well why not?” And he didn’t understand that. I said, “Well if I’m qualified and I’m licensed, if I’ve done everything I need to do to be a lawyer and my client wants me to, how can you not let me practice in a dress?”
And so what I started learning really quickly was that it wasn’t about simplicity, it was more about equality. That the tie is this symbol of male power and I started learning from my female attorney friends as they were laughing at my experiment-how women attorneys have to think about their dress everyday. There’s no standard costume that they can just put on and not have anyone question them about their appearance in court. Is the dress too low? Is it too high? Is it the right color? Is it this or that? Is it the right place for the right court?
And there’s this second guessing that happens with their dress that is oppressive, which is inherent in being a woman. They have to live up to this standard and the guys have the free pass because the guys make the rules. And so I started really learning more about oppression and what its like to be treated unfairly because of something completely arbitrary because of something like a tie.
For the rest of the transcript, click:
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Опубликовано:

20 авг 2014

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Комментарии : 78

@Quakerspeak 4 года назад

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@LorcanOtway 10 лет назад

I am a Quaker in New York City and a lawyer. For years I dressed very starkly plain. Before going into federal court I got a letter from the administrative judge explaining Quaker plain dress to other judges. I would be very interested in speaking with thee on being plain Quaker in court. Writing this by smartphone which is very difficult. I will PM thee later

@zachlosttrail9670 9 лет назад

Sounds like a lot of people in the comments are missing the point here. Not surprised. Social programming and conformity to play dress-up and act a certain part to please people and perform stupid and outdated customs to curry respect will do that. It isn't about giving the 'finger' to the status quo (how insulting and offensive to the Quaker faith to reduce it to that), it is a spiritual concern to this gentleman. He shouldn't have to find 'another profession' because you don't like his unwillingness to conform to something he doesn't believe in. Actually investigate the background of the Friends and their ideals. 'Costume' is an apropos word here. People are such sheep these days, aligned into their narrow little ideas of what's 'right' and 'wrong' as if a piece of cloth around your neck matters. Friends believe we're all equal, no one is better than anyone else, no one deserves vain servile fawning for their position. False elevation of status is vanity. Superior lording of power over others if they don't kowtow to your demands of behavior is vanity. Kudos to this man for blazing his own trail in this matter. I wish people would learn to be less afraid of going against the herd. It's 2014. Who's going to arrest you, the Tie Police? Homogenization is a dangerous thing, and leads to the death of individualism and culture. When we become an indistinguishable whole, obeying a set of obsolete rules by rote like trained circus elephants, then we have a serious integrity problem. The judge sounds like a condescending, patronizing tyrant who enjoys his patriarchal power. It's a shame there's so many of those in our judicial system, where they should be focused on myriad more crucial matters. Here's hoping more Friends and others stand up to them.

@ldlink3935 2 года назад

I completely agree with you. If he wants to show up wearing a dress, a skirt, or shorts, he should be able to!

@helenaville5939 Год назад

I agree with the spirit of what you're both saying. But I also feel you are extending his reason for doing it into a whole big realm of issues. For him it was just about equality. One step at a time.

@joffercalifornia 9 лет назад

I spent thirty years as a federal investigator. I was supposed to wear a tie, but it just didn't fit with who I am. I finally just didn't bother wearing a tie, and I found out that very few people even noticed. I'm in California, so that's a lot easier here than it would be in a lot of places - and it helped that my boss was a hundred miles away.

@jodibeatty 8 лет назад

I love this video. I think of it more often than I would have expected. Thank you for sharing your story!

@earthworkr2 7 лет назад

That old quote about "the clothes define the man", is totally rediculous. Some of the best people I have ever known, had nothing more than worn out overalls with patches on them, and old worn out work boots, (if they had shoes). So many churches alienate people because of their dress codes, also restaurants, courts, etc etc etc. Its very shallow to judge people or make them feel unwanted or uncomfortable according to the way they cover their body. I can totally see the point hes making. He sought to not elevate himself above anyone by the clothes he had on, so he toned it down. Why do people want to leave hateful comments about him for doing something with good intention?

@LyndOrion 10 лет назад

I think you're great. And its true what you say about women's clothes, there is no standard thing women can wear without it being scrutinized on many occasions, not many unisex things left either.

@psychshell4644 8 лет назад

What an interesting way to look at this issue.

@teresafinch7790 3 года назад

I am not a man or a Quaker, but I do not see the point of a tie, men have not always worn one, and can look perfectly smart without it. I remember going to see a GP (doctor) and he was not wearing a tie, I felt much more relaxed with him, than the doctor I had before, so it was easier to communicate with him.

@plainegrace5712 10 лет назад

I have had to go to court for jury duty, and man, it was HARD to not stand for the judge, and to tell them I would affirm, but not swear. I was raised to be in awe of (okay, scared of) authority figures, and I was really nervous. But I explained it to the people at the courtroom, and I was okay. But I don't have to work there for a living. There are so many small braveries that make up our lives.

@rogneid 10 лет назад

In Pennsylvania (at least where I am) they ask "Do you swear or affirm..." In one court, I was on a jury, the judge would come in, sit, say "Good Morning" (or whatever was appropriate) and "Let us begin." No one stood. I don't know if it was just that one judge (I do know he was Quaker) or whether it's a local custom because of the number of Quakers.

@plainegrace5712 10 лет назад

rogneid , it would be interesting to find out. I have to say, I liked that the two were not done together, simply because it made the point that there was a reason for me not swearing. That was the flip side of me being scared.

@psychshell4644 8 лет назад

+rogneid There is a Quaker judge in Doylestown, PA, I believe.

@ThomasNessman 8 лет назад

+Plain E As a Quaker myself, I do believe that it is okay to stand before the bailiff, hand on Bible, and when he asks, do you swear to tell the truth....... You just say, I affirm.

@plainegrace5712 8 лет назад

Thomas Nessman but what does the Bible have to do with anything? The whole point is to simply say "I will tell the truth because that is what I am charged with, and I don't need some hocus-pocus of an added book to make it so".

@bernarddrenzcampbell2757 Год назад

I got DUI court but don’t have a suit I have a long sleeve Dress shirt and Dress pants. Do I have to wear a tie?

@plusbonus1165 3 года назад

How did the case go ? Is your client still in gaol ?

@belindahann8072 6 лет назад

I really enjoyed this video. This guy speaks really well.

@orange70383 5 лет назад

They want you in a tie because they know what the tie represents and what you are freely agreeing to by the act of wearing the tie. Find out what you are binding yourself to legally when you wear a tie, it's a whole lot older and the meaning much much more significant than you would ever believe and if you knew you'd burn every tie you own.

@rosskeeling4459 Год назад

It seems to me that the dress code isn't about a judge's power over attorneys; it's a showing of respect for the justice system. That is, we don't wear a tie in court to show submission to the judge, but to show respect for one another. Some people are overly sensitive to status issues, and perhaps forget that judges are public servants. And in a courtroom both the judges and the attorneys are relegated to being servants of mankind. It's probably best not to have a personal contest over who has more status into that environment. That's really not the point of the proceeding, and is definitely not the point of the justice system.

@scrapeyhawkins5299 10 месяцев назад

Costume was the right choice of words....

@indivarmadhyan1357 8 лет назад

I loved this. Thank you. I dislike that I have to put a tie on my daughter for school. It's like a noose of sorts. Also that it's called a tie.... Tied to societal expectation. All love

@michaelkingsbury4305 6 лет назад

An easy solution if you have become tender to hat honor: Just don't wear a hat indoors, unless the furnace is broken and it's freezing inside. I like your testimony, but do you have a problem when they say "all rise," or by calling the judge "your honor"? Would I stand and doff my hat if the President came into the room? These old customs can still speak. I remember being beat up at recess when I wouldn't pledge the flag, and being kicked out of an Aikido class in college because I wouldn't bow to a photo of the founder of Aikido. I wonder if QEII has gotten used to being addressed by Quakers as Mrs. Mountbatten-Windsor?

@thomaslimon3351 3 года назад

I'm a lawyer, and I hold my ties in utter disdain. You, sir, are my hero. I'm not understanding the patriarchy aspect exactly. I think the opposite actually. The tie is a rope that the lawyer tradition has forced us to wrap around our neck as a sign of submission as if "the officer of the court MUST fall in line - or else." Like we can be told to heal or halt, and if we make a mistake our faces will be rubbed in our doo-doo like we are dogs on a leash.

@bladdnun3016 2 года назад

One crucial thing about the patriarchy: It hurts both men and women! I share your sentiment, but I also agree that that it is harder for women to earn respect since they're being judged on their choice of attire, while most men can just wear a suit and be 'save'. Most men don't have any problems with wearing a symbol of basically everything wrong with our culture.

@jenna2431 Год назад

Imagine holding up justice for a scrap of fabric.

@justachannel9379 9 лет назад

That ass does not belong on the bench. On the other hand, do you want to prejudice a client by having a judge hold your lack of tie against you and, by extension, the client--whether the judge mentions it or not? And, while I hope not, if I ever need a lawyer again, I will ask _him_ or her to appear in a dress.

@abaddon2148 Год назад

do judges hold muslim women wearing hijabs or sikhs wearing headscarfs to court? there's your answer.

@joseheitormadridfonseca4794 3 года назад

Traduzir para o Português

@cuarajhyrojayju4397 5 лет назад

I judge people for who they are as a person not for the way they dress or their bank account I treat all people with the same respect I would like to be treated as a human being

@EdMcF1 3 года назад

Why not cite the First Amendment and there being no religious test for any office (officer of the court) under the Constitution and that a tie is not in keeping (rather than incompatible) with your beliefs? Why not cite the First Amendment and that dress is akin to speech and a Federal Court established by the Congress, may not abridge your expression of your beliefs, in being 'smart' but averse to wearing a tie?

@RoyBruce007 2 года назад

I like my lawyer in a tie. Honor

@ElJibaroBravo 9 лет назад

So wearing a tie = bad because it acquiesces to authority and authoritative imagery but wearing an earring = ok because......? What? It shows your humility and ability to hang out with anyone? I've seen pics of royalty that show them wearing earrings. This seemed pretty arbitrary to me.

@benjaminschmeiser1259 9 лет назад

I agree. How is wearing a ring different than wearing a necktie? A necktie is used to cover unsightly buttons. Also, I noticed that a woman was wearing a necktie in another one of these videos. Arbitrary.

@benjaminschmeiser1259 9 лет назад

***** You bring up a great point about the earring....for all I know, he doesn't wear it in court either. I understand your explanation - I don't think it is weak at all. Thanks for chiming in.

@bladdnun3016 2 года назад

Didn't you watch the video? It's not about simplicity, it's about equality and power. In our culture, earrings have nothing to do with power, a tie does. If anything, wearing earrings as a man is outside the norm and therefore more akin to NOT wearing a tie

@MrApplewine 4 года назад

Do the women have to wear ties? Equal protection under the law.

@BobTheSchipperke Год назад

💥 This is why I stopped going to certain restaurants (esp after the blessing of Covid). If people give me a hard time for believing that they themselves turned their back on god a long time ago. Thank you. 💛 -Scattergood alumni

@roysmith7161 10 лет назад

I have a very mixed reaction. Two things he said brought it into focus. His discussions of women lawyers having to attend carefully to their dress everyday and of his client's reaction to his not wearing the tie. It sounds as if he is a defense attorney. His ethical responsibility is to represent his client effectively. From his description, his decision not to wear the tie threatened his effectiveness. At the very least, it caused a delay in the proceedings (a not insignificant thing given how crowded court dockets are) and focused the judge's attention on how he was dressed, rather than on the merits of his arguments for his client and the facts of the case. He does not appear to grasp the import of what he said about women lawyers, which is that they have to be very careful about how they dress because they know that, in order to be effective, they have to overcompensate because of sexism; they don't really have the option of following spiritual "leadings" that could very well endanger their effectiveness. I understand why the recognition of the suit and tie uniform as an expression of patriarchy is affirming. But I also think his analysis betrays an unconscious assumption of privilege. He can get away with violating a patriarchal norm and even being "clear" and "comfortable" about it because his being a white, male professional means that the consequences of his protest will likely be mild, at least FOR HIM; they may be much more serious for his client. The consequences of such protests or even for just dressing comfortably for, say, a black teenager, can be huge--witness Missouri. I don't think informing his clients of what he is doing gets him off the ethical hook. Even then, his action is not based on an an analysis of how he can best help his client; it ignores his client's reality; it is not compassionate; I don't think it is ethically justified.

@plainegrace5712 10 лет назад

We saw five minutes of what probably took him a long time to work out. I am fairly certain that he would not jeopardize his client's freedom, since that would be a pretty unfriendly thing to do.

@zachlosttrail9670 9 лет назад

people throughout history have faced abuse and consequences for daring to go against the herd. no one said it was easy. but no one said either that risks should never be taken. if people don't stand up to a stupid system out of fear of reprisal, the system continues unquestioned. And indeed, Mr. Smith, you're making some far-reaching character assumptions based on a five-minute video. I applaud his seeking out his own clearness.

@AlexSmith-ej7yy 4 года назад

I know this is over 2 years old, but I want to say I 100% agree with you. It wasted the court’s time. I’d also like to add that if women were prescribed a uniform in the way men are in suits, then that would likely be called oppressive as well. There’s no clear answer, but I know if I’m representing a client who’s paid me to preform a task, I should do that to the best of my ability. If that means complying with the customs of court, then so be it. Wasting the court’s time and causing grief for a client seems outright selfish.

@abaddon2148 Год назад

@@AlexSmith-ej7yy nah. it's the judge's fault for derailing the conversation to instead waste time dogging on someone for not wearing a piece of fabric to a courtroom, while still looking presentable and formal well within his spiritual/social limits. you'd think there's much more important things to focus on than the not wearing of a tie in a courtroom, don't you?

@abaddon2148 Год назад

what happened to this quaker is similar to a judge asking a sikh person or a muslim woman to remove their headscarf. i'm assuming hopefully that's not okay in your courtroom. he chooses to wear and not to wear based on his spiritual beliefs like every other outwardly religious person, no different than a muslim, so why is it okay when the muslim does it, and not the quaker?

@kurts4867 8 лет назад

But earrings are ok?? What about nipple piercings??

@patrickhair2808 10 лет назад

This is because whether pro or con or neutral, prosecutor or defense, no matter who your client is, you ultimately work for the corporate justice system which enforces Admiralty Law and not Common Law. The BAR association is run by the City of London and adherence to their rules comes first before anything that you do for a client. The City of London is a vestige and vassal of the Crown, who owe their allegiance to The Vatican. It can also be thought of as a remnant of the Holy Roman Empire. That's why Britain is no longer England.. America is a corporation and was officially proclaimed one in 1871.

@AmericanDream317 8 лет назад

So this is a religion that teaches ties aren't plain yet an earring on a man is?

@corvusmortuus2369 7 лет назад

Did you even watch the video?

@elizabethzenn2353 6 лет назад

you can take off your tie but you CAN not take off your color of skin ....hence OPPRESSION DOMINATION

@Okie8T9 5 лет назад

Won't wear a tie but has a gold ring in his ear LMAO

@IgorSalazar1 8 лет назад

I´m quaker attorney at law and I don´t have problem with tie.Since 5 years never with tie and never anything said me nothing. Men´s power WTF?

@jeff-freehoke8012 5 лет назад

I like this guy. I really do. I am from a very conservative religion as well. We wear ties basically every Sunday and it is very normal. YOU ARE WEARING AN EARRING? TROLLLOLOLOLOLOL

@redrobin1193 5 лет назад

"I am a trial lawyer. Um. And. Um." Looks like I won't be hiring this clown.

@thomaslimon3351 3 года назад

The fee and representation agreement is a bilateral contract; the door swings both ways. Perhaps he doesn't want to hire you.

@jacobwallace2158 2 года назад

@@thomaslimon3351 good, lol. A lawyer thats bad at public speaking and won't wear a tie. Lol no loss.

@sirena7116 Год назад

It's really interesting that you can go to jail in court because of how you dress.

@queunlimited4779 26 дней назад

??? Who cares?

@fjccommish 6 лет назад

He'd be in trouble if he appeared in my court room. When in Rome. You don't come to Rome telling the Romans to act like Germans. In a court room the judge is boss within legal boundaries. If there's a dress code, there's a dress code.

@laofox448 4 года назад

fjvideo So, should a Muslim woman be forced to remove her headscarf in your courtroom? Should an Amish man be forced to wear a tie, etc.? Should a Sikh be forced to remove his turban (dastār)? Or is it just Quakers’ religions principles & history that you disrespect? I’m not sure about Rome, but in America, we respect others’ religious traditions.

@convincedquaker 2 года назад

@@laofox448 Well said.

@dldl43b 9 лет назад

I call bullsh. All about him. Courts have local rules that prescribe expected dress by practitioners. There is a certain respect for the institution required by professionals. Law practice is a calling, too. Maybe not for this guy. Tie or no tie, so what? Proper dress is a show of respect. This lawyer has a duty to respect the Court. The disrespect, disregard, and denigration of the institution he harbors is wrong.

@a.j.mendoza8708 9 лет назад

God is no respecter of persons.

@proserepair 7 лет назад

Hey, A.J. Saw and liked your QuakerSpeak video. One view in legal tradition is that the judge's robes indicate that the law and justice matter, and that the judge as an individual is not what matters. (I really like the comment above, from the lawyer who got a letter to explain to others that his dress would differ from the norm for reasons of religion/conscience. Then others in the room were not left to hypothesize whether one lawyer was getting away with being disrespectful or simply didn't care.) Anyway, thanks for your comment. It made me stop and think.

@jackarwood9863 6 лет назад

David Loving the courts should serve the people and not the people serve the court.

@user-rj8oj7bl2n 4 года назад

Dress CODE IS NOT A SIGN OF RESPECT. It shows oppression that without wearing something, my legal knowledge in a court is invalid. Such shame to the elderly men who think like that. Most courts don't have a dress code.

@laofox448 4 года назад

David Loving So, should a Muslim woman be forced to remove her headscarf in court? Should an Amish man be forced to wear a tie, etc.? Should a Sikh be forced to remove his turban (dastār)? Or is it just Quakers’ religions principles & history that you disrespect?