Why I Love Joan 

Joan knows how to be a powerful woman on a man’s world. She has win power and doesn’t want that to change. It’s good. But Peggy want to change the world. And that’s admirable.

The stories of Peggy and Joan are parallel stories. It is two different ways of advancing. Before the modern feminist movement was started by the founding of NOW and the publishing of The Feminine Mystique in the 1960s, the only way for women to get ahead in the world was by verbal and emotional manipulation, and also by using their sexuality, their, "feminine wiles," so to speak. That is Joan. Then, you have a Peggy, obviously a modern feminist approach. She asks for things and forces her way on to things in a very aggressive way. She works hard to prove her worth, demanding to be recognized and compensated for that work. Yet, as the series goes on, both women move up in influence, pay, and prestige. Peggy goes from secretary to junior copywriter, to head copywriter, to copy chief. Joan moves from head secretary to office manager to partner to owning her own business. They just went about it a different way, and for that reason, they were seemingly at odds most of the series. The great thing was, by the end, they sort of met in the middle. They almost became business partners. Joan realized that using her body and manipulative abilities had a ceiling. So, she used those business contacts forged in that way to make something of her own. Peggy had gone through the whole show not needing anyone, living for her work and for her career, and realized that was an emotional dead end, and that her work would eventually suffer. So, finally realizing her love for someone and opening herself up, she will set herself up for happiness.

LOL that zoom-in ...

Neither character is wrong here and that's what makes this show so great.

Loved this moment- 2 strong smart women dealing with a situation very differently. Great moment to express the times this show represented.

Joan was correct and incorrect. Don coached Peggy to do something about the situation by herself. He said if she got HIM involved, the men would never respect her. On the other hand, Joan was accustomed to taking care of herself, usually by something like having "one dinner" with the client.

I love how the elevator dings at the exact moment Peggy blinks (1:13). As if to underline the notion, "made you blink".

To me, this is the most complex situation in the whole show. It still makes me think to this day.

I think a lot of people miss the point of this scene -- yes, Joan's right that Peggy fired those guys to throw her weight around. But ultimately, it's not about which of them was right, who handled it better. Either way, no matter how hard they work, how good they are at their jobs, how well they play the game, those little shits will always be handed the advantage, will never take them seriously, and will be able to tear them down and humiliate them on the basis of gender. "They can still just draw a cartoon."

never did I know a another character in the tv and movie genre who can cut someone with their words so swiftly and effectively like Joan Harris.

Peggy does what she wants when she wants. Joan plays by the men’s rules. Two totally different ladies, good on ya Peggy !

That zoom in editing has me dying!!! 🤣

Okay let us straighten out 1) the point that Joan makes and 2) which consequences can be drawn from it: 1) The guys made some degrading joke on her. The right reaction is to insult them back and thus regain respect, be on equal footing, so to speak. Going further than that by asking a more powerful man to fire Stan would have been beyond measure in her eyes. 2) Though Joan has lived an unusual lifestyle for a woman of her time, her point here is a conservative one, because she goes by the rules made by men and thus confirms the status quo. The guys say "it's funny" while it is humiliating to her. So neither before nor after are they ever on equal footing, despite her long career and experience. And there is more: She confuses influence with power. She does not have the power to get Stan fired, but the influence. This is an important difference, because in critical situations influence is a weak currency. You see that even Peggy tried Joans way at first: She snitches on the guys to Don like a little school girl. So Don definitely has the better point: "If you want some respect, go and get it on your own." What makes Joans behaviour even worse is the lack of solidarity she shows here. Peggy did what she did because she thought women should help each other in situations that can hit every woman. Joan instead only cares for her own pride - one could even allege she despises other women. ======= I still like Joan because despite of this elevator scene she later learns from Peggy as @forfeitthegame80 pointed out. She learns that getting everything (passively) by her looks will hit a ceiling and won't take her any further - just like the elevator both women are using in this scene :)

What's wonderful about how this is written and particularly what Christina Hendricks brings to it is the softening in tone for her goodbye

I don't really think either of them are doing wrong. Peggy did do this for herself, that is true to a certain degree, but not in the selfish way Joan kind of implies. Even without Don's prompting Peggy always wants to prove herself so she handles conflict through action. Therefore she assumed Joan would want the same done for her. But Joan prefers to rise above it; hence why she's always expected the same from Peggy. This isn't a right and wrong situation, it's just two strong women with contrasting opinions on how to handle things.

that zoom though...lol

Joan who tf cares about your pride?? She was only worried about herself and didn't stop to think that Joey being fired was helpful for ALL the women at the office.

You can learn SO much from this show.

The problem with Joan's point is that it relies on the assumption that they should give two shits about what some copywriters think.

I love Joan & Peggy, each for their own reasons. This is a great clip & an interesting discussion string. Mad Men was an amazing series. p.s. I still think Sally is my favorite character.

always loved Joan but she was a bit harsh on Peggy there!

I adore Joan, so powerful, beautiful , mindful woman.

I can think of two very large reasons as to why I love Joan.

that zoom in was pretty awesome. nice touch.

Joan was just pissed that Peggy had more power than her. If Joan could fire Joey, she would've done so instantly. Joan had a massive ego.

Dont understand the hate on these comments for joan and peg. I think this scene is great cuz behind the seemingly harsh words and tense stare down, there is a powerful learning experience for peg courtesy of joan. They are like feeding off of each other. And you can see at the end that peg has the face of someone who just realized some powerful truth. Almost looks as tho she's grateful for joans truth bombs. Great scene.

What's with zoom? Moss' performance was more than sufficient.

I think Joan raises an interesting question. We tend to judge people who raise in ranks by using attraction and sexuality. A woman sexuality is almost something that should be repressed, and confined to the bedroom alone, whereas men are not judged to the same degree. If you look at Don Draper, it almost made people take him more seriously, even when his affairs was much more public, and he had a wife and kids at home. Joan was (most of the time) single, and had discrete pseudo relationships with a few people she truly cared about. It seems like male sexuality can almost help you advance your career, while female sexuality is negative for your reputation. So I sometimes have to wonder, is it so bad to use your sexuality to help you advance? I am not talking about sleeping your way to the top, but why are females not allowed to be proud of their femininity, and still be takken seriously? I think Joan is my favourite character in the series. She is not perfect, and I really hate cheating/having affairs with married people, but most of the characters does that anyways. But she is not with Roger just because of her career; in many ways, they almost have a pseudo relationship. She is very discreet about it. She puts her femininity on full display, takes pride in it, but she also demonstrates that she is very capable, and have both beauty, brains and social skills. In many ways, I would love to bring that back into modern society, instead of feeling forced to repress it in everyday life.

Enh. I’ve read the reactions. Joan was being petty. She could’ve talked to Peggy instead of talking down to her - literally and figuratively.

This show was SOOOOO AWESOME!!!!

WHY WE LOVE JOAN

Wow the number of people missing the point here is amazing.

A humorless bitch who can fire you. Men only understand - and respect - direct results: Piss this person off = Get fired. We saw this same debate between Little Finger and Cersei in Game of Thrones: Little Finger approaches Cersei and tries to blackmail/threaten her with his influence and who and what he "knows." Cercei's response is to order her guards to slit his throat right there in the courtyard, which they are totally about to do before she calls them off. She then tells Little Finger that "POWER is power." In effect, that no matter how influential you are, you are never as powerful as the people who can kill (or Peggy's case fire) you. Manipulation, scheming, and string pulling will only get you so far when with one word, someone else can have you killed if you cross them. Peggy will take more heat for taking care of business in a brutal, open manner. But she'll also have more respect from the men. They'll call her a bitch and talk mad shit behind her back, but they also won't be drawing anymore cartoons. Meanwhile Joan can pull strings and get back at the cartoon-drawer, but she has to turn a trick to do it, and the rest of the men won't even know that she was behind it. They'll still openly treat her like crap and disrespect her. Joan's method means she has to fight her battles individually at great cost, while Peggy can drop the hammer publicly and set an example.

I think peggy did the right thing. if neither of them did anything the bullying would've just continued. joan didn't handle it.

I'd like to speak in defense of Peggy. She did what a professional would do- she was direct, she was honest and above-board about the fact that she fired that guy and why she did so. Peggy may have produced a similar result via backchannels, but ultimately it would be feeding into the relentless condescension that defined the relationship between the men who ran Sterling Cooper Price and the women who... didn't run it, nor have any realistic chance of doing so. Joan was the leader of the women within SCDP, and that was it until Peggy came along. It took Peggy and her true professionalism to open the door to women becoming leaders in the profession.

I love Christina Hendricks. I fluked finding out about her, just by flicking through the channels and came onto Mad Men. One look at her and I fell in love with her and I don't even watched this show. But it must be sexy watching Christina Hendricks playing a sexy classic lady.

I liked Joan for most of the series, this was the beginning of my contempt for her character however...

This scene embodies just about everything that is wrong with people's priorities in life...

I love Joan because I am a SIMPLE MAN

"Why I love Joan" Yeah I'm not seeing what you're seeing.

Cold and accurate. Joan is incredibly attractive..

now she is rocking on "Good Girls"

you want to be the boss? earn it

Oh, "you thought you were helping" - part 2 😐🤔😏

I think that Joan was also saying to Peggy "I don't need you to fight my battles, I was here way before you and a couple of years ago you were just some mousy typing pool secretary, I try to give you advice but you sabotaged it."

I can't believe how many of the comments here show how they don't understand the scene

Dude, Joan at her most raw form.

Best Joan Lines yet! One of the best moments in MM History!

I think Joan was jealous that Peggy had that power and she didn’t.

Hello, do you know where I can find this dialogue /script? there is no subtitles here... thanks !

😆🤣 oh, Joan!

The thing people didn't get about Joan is that she always was more clever than beautiful.

i love both of them

I loved this series, but I never liked the character Joan. I felt sorry for her at times. Particularly, at the end of the series where she is cheated out of the value of her ownership interest by McGann. However, it always struck me that no one could make her happy and no one was good enough for her. Peggy was obviously ambitious, but she did little to hurt Joan. Her firing of Joey was justified and was well intentioned on her part. Maybe I just don't give Joan enough credit, but the character was basically unlikeable.

Yeah !!!

I think Joan was right about Peggy's motivations. For Peggy to intercede at all, means she views Joan as a subordinate, incapable of handling her own situations. And that move would translate that way throughout the office. Both are smart, but Joan had the edge. If Peggy was on Joan's level, she would have known how Joan was going to view what she did. For her to be surprised, meant Peggy wasn't even close in her perception of the true hierarchy.

Joan betrayed Don

Wow.

*Apply cold water to the obliterated existence. *

Don't mess with Joan....She'll drop kick you into next week!

These two. It’s the classic “Ginger & Maryanne”, “Veronica & Betty” stereotypes…in a way.

Everybody loves Joan. ❤️

I’m sorry but that zoom in tho

I would've thought that Peggy, of all people, would wear the title "humorless bitch" like a badge of honor.

the first hing that came to my mind watching will smith at oscars 2022

_Why I love Joan:_ _Because she's a bad bitch_ ~FIN~

Serious sizzling-cymbal sounds here!!!

Jesus. Maybe I’ll watch a couple of episodes, this was interesting.

Peggy learns from the Mistress.

Peggy fired Joey because he disrespected her, not because he disrespected Joan. Peggy almost demanded Joan to be grateful, but Joan knew that Peggy didn’t do it for her, Peggy did it for herself. I found Peggy quite annoying, she wasn’t very nice to the girls in her office.

That is the fucking truth

Perhaps I'm being too analytical, but I've noticed on the show that those in her age group and especially the older men fancied Joan, but it seems that the super young ones (those born after 1940) weren't exactly drooling over her.

Daaaayum

Wonderful Deer GRİLS...

She also years ahead of her time in sacking that bloke for what did. He wouldn't get away with it today either!

Women need to be treated with respect. Period

I’m on Peggy’s side. That kid was asking for trouble. Don’t take no shit off nobody

DID SHE JUST CALL PEGGY "BECKY"??? /S

There’s at least a couple good reasons.

billionaire vs millionaire

Still trying to hash out how Joan could've gotten Joey fired or taken care of. If Joan's dinner partner likes Joey's work, then what?

Is the elevator even moving

She is the most beautiful and hottest woman ever

I mean not to be one of those guys but Joan kind of made it as high as she did making the other girls feel like peaces of shit. Peggy is just, much more smarter. I feel like peggy did the right thing and joan did NOT have to call her a bitch and the just say have a nice weekend like nothing happend...

In a way Joan was one of the best teachers Peggy could have had. She needed that tough love.

Boom Sadly it's true.

This sounds an awful lot like a Joan problem here.

Joan has a bad attitude with some women. Her comments to Peggy was wrong - Peggy was trying to help her not just herself but Joan can be a "bitch" when she wants to. Even during the time over the lipstick challenge - she couldn't stand that Peggy had a mind to speak hers when it came to the lipstick and if you noticed how she shuffle her out of the room when Fred was surprised by Peggy's comment? Joan I believe got jealous since she seeks all the attention for herself and God forbid if other women should get a small fraction of what she normally gets. I prefer Peggy because she is more stable in her thinking while Joan continues to delude herself with the concept of marriage that once you marry you don't have to work? Who in God's earth thought you don't have to work? You work at home to build a home and a safe haven for your family by taking care of your home and cook, clean and maintain a safe environment. After all, when one marries unless you marry well - you still have to maintain a house and cook and clean. I know because I did. It wasn't always so easy but I learned to manage to keep a good home for my own family.

I dunno this was petty on Joan's front and her paranoia at looking weak to the firm never came back to her.

It angers me how the dynamics for us women still havnt deviated much esp in the office environment. She is right men still talk down, make crude jokes and draw shameful comparisons with cartoons or anima to put women in their place. I once had a boss tell me , no one likes a smart mouth on a women who can carry her own luggage up the stairs all because I corrected him when he blamed me for not doing his favorite minions aka my colleagues work for him so he could meet "HIS" dead line. I realized I couldnt5 work around sexist people who didnt know that gender has no role in a work place no matter how good I was at my job I could never win around old powerful men playing favorites and looking down at us like we were just there for their amusement. Joan thanks for the reminder.

What the hell!? This is the worst Joan scene ever. Do you know the context of how this scene developed? This marks her as petty, insecure, and foolish. Not what she is. Bad, Mahana, Bad. Video should be titled "Why Joan is awful".

words cant describe how happy i was when Joan told her off here

Joan and Peggy should have started their own agency. Would have put most of the others out of business within 5 years...

Christina Hendricks as Joan is my ideal preference for a date. She's a tall, strong, sexy red head, who has a seductive voice, and a tough attitude. In this scene however, I thought she was a real bitch. I don't always approve of her cold attitude. Just because people act tough and/or cold, doesn't always mean they're being honest. Most of the time, they're just being an asshole. I really hate it when people say "Good for you" as a dick comment. When people say "Good for you" as a dick comment, they always misunderstand what the other person is saying. They're not asking you to praise them. They're just proud of their accomplishments.Nothing wrong with having a little pride. Besides, what does Joan have to be proud of. She's just a secretary during the 1960's. Christina Hendricks portrays nothing but a sex object w/ a bitchy attitude. Going back to preferences on women, I would still date someone like her in appearance and/or attitude. Even if she gets bitchy.

LOL Give me a single reason to dislike Joan. She's easily my second favourite character on the show behind Don. Just a great lady.

Joan is right, and Peggy knows it.

We have learned ...donT mess with Joan ....oh no!!

Why did she wear a pen around her neck then?

Peggy today, at least in that scene, would be a woke progressive snowflake activist in today's world

What’s to love she’s insecure