Why is there so little MELODY in New Classical Music? || Q&A No.3 

"how do you stop your ego getting in the way of one's music?" ...writing music as your only means of income soon sorts that out.

Wow David, thanks so much for the shout out! I need to dig into some of your work as well.

For some reason many young composers think it's not hip to write a melody. It's actually really hard to come up with a great one.

My grandmother once told me that the problem she had with "plinky plonk" music (as she called it) was that "there's almost always no tune, something to whistle." Great video!

One reason some modern composition has little by way of melody: When I was studying composing in conservatory, my professors were constantly trying to push me to write music that was less melodic. I unlearned that again after graduation, but my impression was that less melodic music tended to win the prizes and the accolades and thus what the "market" wanted. That was true even among some of the relatively hip local contemporary classical music ensembles.

Keep on being nerdy! (Intellectual, interesting, scientific, informative).

My problem with many RU-vidrs is that they hold back information, and treat people like children. Bring on the intelligence (it's 2018 and moving fast) It's better to see a video where you understand nothing, than understanding everything. That way you know you've got work to do and have specific things to research until you understand the entire video dialogue.

In my experience, the best way to get the ego out of the music, is to keep making music so much, that it no longer becomes something you think too much about. You just do it. This applies to everything, by the way.

The introduction to Igor Stravinsky's Rite of Spring has a pretty interesting trick for its atonality. What happens is that the first part of the first bar of the opening bassoon solo lands on an A with a fermata marking, in which can subliminally imply that we're in A Minor. After the second try, it's interrupted by an F Horn playing a G# (G# in the F Horn is the same as a C# on an instrument in C). This creates a rather dissonant minor 6th interval. The bassoon continues its solo and the F Horn rises to an A (D for instrument in C). When the bassoon tries to land on A again, the F Horn drops once more (on the exact same beat, mind you) to that G#. That A doesn't feel like a resolution for the rest of the intro (except for some very small amounts of relief that are mostly cut short due to underlying tones that play against that A). Keeping this in mind, atonality can be accomplished through cleverly disrupting resolution.

as somebody who got into "nerdy" music just a few years ago, I immensely respect your videos. Great musical knowledge and interesting topics explained in a friendly, non-condescending way is the way to go. power to the nerds!

I'm grateful that Beethoven and Brahms weren't as concerned with "intellectual integrity" as contemporary composers are... (7:00)

I am beyond thrilled to discover that Maestro Bruce is a funk-head! I've always had a tough time trying to reconcile, or figure out the connections between, my love for classical and funky music, because they are just so different. I wrote a funk _fugue_ at one point, so help me. I started to accept that maybe I was just irreconcilably weird, but then I discovered Vulfpeck, and it was like finding kindred spirits in musical outlook I thought I was totally alone in entertaining. And now one of the music educators and contemporary composers I have the greatest respect for drops the ball, too. The funky, funky ball. Man, I am having the greatest day. Thanks David! Looking forward to new videos on any topic of your choosing.

yah, I agree nerdier = more interresting.. go with the metrics and let your inner geek run wild! seriously: I enjoy your videos, there's always new stuff to discover and stimulating thoughts toponder. (:

I'm glad you mentioned early Joni Mitchell. I think her melodic style is very unique and her guitar writing beautiful. I like her music from different periods too.

I really love music so much. I cried seeing this video. Thanks for reminding me of what's exciting, and sharing your thoughts with us in such a warm, intelligent way!

I found when I impatiently wrote some pre-classical music that I naturally went to by nature that I want to use chords and interesting phrases of singing or singing-like instrumentalism and I listen to contemporary classical music and its just sequences of effects, never a melody being rigorously explored. I find as a happy amateur that the act of writing that other kind of classical music is like doing the rhythm guitar part of a pop song out in front without melody. You should be equally good at both. Classical needs melody.

Some interesting ideas, especially regarding EGO. Being too nervous while playing a concert is a distraction. It makes you ask "If I'm scared of making mistakes, who am I trying to impress? Do they really care? What am I doing here ? (it's certainly NOT for the MONEY)." Why we play?...because it feels good. Don't worry, if they don't like you they won't book you & you won't have to do it again.

As usual people miss the point. We need all the colors of the rainbow to blend them in infinite ways. Thanks for this informative video.

I've always felt that regardless of the virtical environment melodicism can inhabit that place. Also that melody is an inspired thing that can in the moment at least transcend all. Maybe it's an improvisers reality. I like the idea of broad melodies in really diabolical scientificish environments.

Adhering to arbitrary rules/patterns when writing non-functional stuff is one of my favorite things to do when out of ideas. A lot of the time, it sounds organized but bad, but there's very often little sections, rearrangements and additions/ommisions that get me going to write more freely.

These videos are just gem after gem, I really appreciate your very clear dedication to curiosity. Amazing, David.

Thank you, Mr. Bruce; for bringing the ways of writing melodies and the foreground of how specific pieces relate to how we digest or take in our listening pleasure of classical music. It was a great video overall!

One of the most interesting discussions resulting to music that I have heard in quote a while. Thanks.

From 8:30 onwards.. I'm sold, genuine dude. Superb video to boot. Subscribed!

What an absolutely amazing video! I really appreciate your honestly and self awareness but like you said a great deal of the work one considers important had to be done with love and fancy in mind. Ie you really gotta like what you’re doing and do it for that reason... this has been the theme of my week lately

Thank you so much for making this video! Really interesting and well-articulated.

David! I must say your youtube channel is a saviour to traditional classical music! :)

Oh my gosh so many wonderful topics in this video! great job & keep doing super nerdy stuff :)

Great video. I love the broad range of classical music--from lush melody to David Lang. Music is a vast territory. Thanks for a great video.

Night Parade is really cool.

David, thanks for your videos; they are phenomenally instructional. Bring on the nerdy! Loving the funk influence.

Great video David. Love your piece Night Parade, too- extremely enjoyable to listen to!

Absolutely fascinating. I'm almost completely non-nerd in my approach to music (I write stuff for guitar and piano), but the nerdy stuff about it makes sense to me at some deeper level. I was gratified to see that David Lang quote about not wanting his emotional state being shifted all the time - that's why I struggle with Beethoven and a lot of romantic music. Give me a Bach sarabande any day...or a fugue if I'm in the mood. I love folk and fingerpicking too.

Thanks for sharing your insights and wisdom. Especially the Funk

David, you always inspire with serious thought out points and humorous silly quips. I want to grow up to be like youl

I enjoy hearing recommendations from such a highly trained musician. Plz continue recommending more. I love Arabic music : Natacha Atlas, Amr Diab, etc

It's interesting that you'd be self-conscious about your tastes and personality coming through on your channel as I feel you're one of the most honest and genuine youtuber out there. Less artificial, if that makes sense. Keep on being you, homie! I really enjoy your deep knowledge of your art; and the clear, entertaining form you present it.

Wonderful video. You explain complex concepts in a very approachable way. I also like Josh Turner Guitar - the finger pciking style of playing guitar is my favorite way of listening to guitar.

I'm loving your channel, and will have to find "Night Parade" for a proper listen!

You're a gift on you tube. A proper gift.

i find most of the 'new classical' music on radio q, nyc, mostly lyrical. alas, i come from an earlier period than most of you and still am enamored of straight ahead jazz, hard bop, hey, count basie, jimmy lunceford. and thanks for the folk references, as i grew through that period.and acoustic finger picking and songs remain pure beauty.

I enjoyed your nerdy video, keep on keeping on. I'm gonna subscribe and check out more of your video essays.

I find this very helpful. Thank you!

Great video! That Night Parade piece of yours is awesome

Thank you David for passing on your knowledge. I get a lot from it.

God, your mic setup is absolutely awesome

If you ever want a great adventure in complete atonality and an exercise in atemporality, I strongly suggest listening to Karlheinz Stockhausen's Gruppen fur Drei Orchestre. (Groups for 3 Orchestras) Not one iota of melody or cognitive rhythm. I have never been the same since I first listened to this work and realized that such a composition is different each time you listen to it.

Hi David. I’ve arrived late to your RU-vid channel but I’m really enjoying your presentation style. I’ve learnt a lot.

I've heard light moving! And I recognized it as played by Hilary Hahn, for whom the piece was composed for. It gave me a little thrill to encounter the piece here in your video.

However Indian classical music is full of melodies. The most defined one is called a bandish and can be hinted and heard in the beginning improvisational alap portion of the performance before the bandish and tabla portion come in. Even some alap phrases could be considered a melody.

Amazing video as always :)

Thank you, this was amazing!

Very cool to see someone else mention Josh Turner. He's not only a great guitar player but I think he's becoming a really good song writer over the last few years.

Hi David, greetings from South India. It's so nice to learn that you're interested and knowledgeable in Indian music. I'm curious if you've heard much about the composer Ilayaraja of South India. He's most popular for his film scores and film songs, but a couple of his "music for music" albums are an interesting blend of the western methods of harmony and counterpoint and the Indian method of raga. Their names are "Nothing but Wind" and "How to Name It". Please continue the great work with your videos!

Really dug the excerpt at the end. It gave me Moondog vibes and that's always welcome.

Excellent.

I'm so glad that you used La Fille aux Cheveux de Lin as an example when you mentioned Debussy.

omg "The Brand New Heavies" sounds amazing, ty for the suggestion :)

Shout out for Brand New Heavies!

I need to find the full version of Night Parade on youtube. I need it in my life

Your videos are excellent and beautifully accessible

Contemporary classical makes me think of Einaudi. Most of his music is based off of a couple of very simple sections and phrases that repeat. The song will play through once and then repeat with little articulation. I guess this is why his music is normally a first choice for beginners to learn. I myself compose similar music. Very simple and minimal and the main melody is repeated. Some people hate this but I dont know, I just love simple. I write music this way, not because I'm afraid (I dont get the meaning behind why people say this tbh) but because that's literally how I think. This doesn't mean I cant write a really great melody, I also love and make full and lush orchestral pieces. It's just that my piano and string pieces are minimal and contemporary because I like it that way.

I have asked myself the 'where's the melody?' question many times. Many absolutely spell-binding technical performances still have me wondering what exactly are they trying for us to visualize. One of the most obvious examples is the direction that film composing has gone in recent years. You are going to be hard pressed to remember a melodic approach that Barry, Goldsmith, Williams or Morricone gave us time after time. The pieces in films today are bass and noise dependent. There are great melodic approaches such as the score for A Quiet Place but they are the exception.

5:50 - Canadian composer Claude Vivier (1948-1983) might be an exception. He was a great melodist on his own way. Here some examples of his melodic output. Lonely Child - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-qrIA2KbJkaE.html Siddharta - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-wTQAOgtr1z8.html Et je reverrai cette ville étrange - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mSuKZXMrzaQ.html Zipangu - ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-f2cs0v20VWk.html Greetings from Bogotá, Colombia. P.S: David: your music sounds pretty awesome and inspiring. Night Parade is powerful.

This is a great video!

To the subject of who you are writing music for, it's very tough. Sometimes you want WANT to write music for virtuosic and academic qualities, but it may have little appeal outside of the academic circle. Which is why so many of us shy away from odd transpositions, intervals, modes, and shifting time signatures; and why pop music is so prevalent. Simply because it's easily palletable. This isn't a knock on modern popular music, rather it's a tip of the hat to the simplicity of it; that the minimalism of our current popular music culture can give way to some fairly diverse art. Staying in a single time signature, in a single key, and limiting to only a handful of intervals, some standout artists have made some beautiful art. (typing on my phone, forgive typos, and lack of references, but I'd be happy to discuss more at length) I'm going to listen to both of those artists you mentioned at the start of this video. I'm highly intrigued at... Non-human-made music

I was only interested in watching your videos but Night Parade seems cool.

Thanks for your thoughts, especially talking about being introverted. It’s something I’m fighting right now and striving to do more vlog style videos despite this. I’m an enormous synth nerd so I’ve got that going for me at least 😁

That is one of the reasons why I started writing my own classical music: I couldn't find anyone still alive making new classical music that has nice melodies and just sounds interesting overall. Reading from the comments it might actually be a good thing that I learned it from an internet course rather than a conservatory. Some composers like Ludovico Einaudi and Yiruma are okay... but their music is so simple and repetitive compared to Mozart and Beethoven and the like.

I want to hear David Bruce, Night Parade! I really liked what I could hear of it in this video. It looks like you made one with a rolling score. That would be perfect!

Nice vid David, once again!

I've been thinking about the melody component in the new classical music from a long time ago. I believe (maybe I'm wrong) that for most listener the problem is not that melodies are not longer anymore. Nobody will expect something expansive like the second theme of the Unfinished or the extreme beauty of the second theme of Pathetique. I believe that what people miss is a melody segment to whistle after the concert, because the melody forms of today are quite elusive. I have listen many works where the melody is very difficult to keep, to remember note by note, but what I retain is feeling created by that melody segment with the rest of the elements of the music that are sounding together, i.e: in the first movement of your "Gumboots", maybe I don´t remember every melodic gesture, I retain the climax created by the whole ensemble, the Violin Concerto by Maxwell Davies, it's so beautifull, but I don´t remember any specific melodic segment, the same at the very touching moment, close to the ending of Lutoslawski's Fourth Symphony, when the two violins plays a very sad and very nostalgic melodic lines, at that point, it doesn't matter if you can sing this moment later, the whole music moves you inside.

Hi David, thanks for your insightful and entertaining videos, I'm really enjoying them. I was wondering if you'd consider talking about how someone could learn composition without access to music school or university? Best wishes, Anthony

I remember Peter Greenaway referring to "the evil of the melody" slightly archly, but the video of his speech at Butler University (Indianapolis) is available, and he didn't say that, although it's possible I heard him say it before or after, because I did see him after and possibly before he went up, although I never spoke directly to him. He did say that melody is commercial and needs to fall away to create true art. He also calls for figuration to leave painting and narrative to leave film.

When Doves Cry is a banger eternal, you take that back.

I like your videos a lot, so don't change!

I like that city buzz pice of yours. I guess it would have perfectly fitted in a mid 50s - early 60s film, like an opening scene with traffic, busy city life. A Hitchcock film comes to mind.... Build a time machine and try your luck ;)

That piece "Nigh parade" of yours: Wow! Has some serious Prokofjev vibes. Love it! Where can I listen to the whole thing?

Your doing good, don't worry. Just keep at it. :)

I thoroughly enjoy your channel, and your music! Have you ever considered writing for wind band? I just returned from the Midwest Clinic (an international band and orchestra convention, specifically geared towards educators) in Chicago, Illinois, USA and after listening to your "Night Parade" thought that music like yours could have a place there, being played by a full wind band. I would love to see a piece for full wind band from you at some point!

Melody, traditionally speaking, is just a way to organize horizontally one of many sound parameters: pitch (among rhythm/duration, intensity, timbre and space). So in order to create music, you can express yourself even without pitch at all (or using it, but not change it), let alone without melody...! As Bruce said, composing with melody derives from a very specific tradition. And the reason most contemporary composers tend not to use it or avoid it at all, is to explore and express themselves through rhythm, intensity, timbre, space, and other pitch related tools like harmony, modalism, etc.

Thank you Bruce! I noticed that there are less melodies in modern compositions, but I like to write music with melodies.. I just like to write melodies.. I think that short music pieces by Tchaikovsky for Nutcracker may be an example of how to write symphonic music with melodies.. I write them following the form aba', when the third part may be a repetition or a variation of the first part. You may find a piece Longing for heaven on my channel on youtube. There may be a composition with a melody and its variations, but I think a further development of a melody with a different harmony and modulations is always a challenge.. for instance, I really love Beethhoven Fourth symphony, the second movement as an example of a beautiful melody and its development

I just discovered your channel, I love it :D.

insightful video, as a beginner composer and musician I must say that I find myself drawn to the more melodic phrasing. At the risk of being 'dated', my sensibilities are more drawn to melodic shapes and how harmonies interact with the imagined shape. Coming from a classical background, I have the thought that so many melodies have already been written or as the great songsmith Bob Dylan said "there's no new music". I'm not sure I agree.

Contemporary academic classical music often has become completely mathematical and atonal. It is for a very small audience. Arvo Pärt is an exception to this. His music is tonal and there is a commonly understood beauty to it. It is not a surprise that for several years Pärt has been the most performed living classical composer in the world.

Interesting, thank you.

Hey another Brazilian that appreciates music o/ cheers :D

I believe there’s a simple answer to why melody has been lost - snobbery. Beethoven set the stage for this: he knew his music was for a later age, and might not please the audience of his day. But Beethoven was Beethoven and most composers... aren’t him. So, he gets a pass; others, maybe not. The notion has grown to the point of absurdity: the less pleasing the music, the more profound it must be ( or so the fallacious logic would have us believe). The less you like it, the shallower you are. Melody is often the most pleasing and ingratiating (thus, “shallow”) aspects of music. Dispense with tunes, and you’ve taken a great first step to faux profundity. You also avoid the very difficult task of writing a melody, especially one that (gasp!) people might actually like. Also, if you make your music as technically difficult as possible - preferably impossible - you show everyone that your artistic imagination exceeds the surly bounds of the lowly instruments you call upon to execute your oh-so-deep creation. Having said all this, I still like experimental music; I just wish modern composers would, well, get over themselves a bit.

Thanks for another vlog!

The question “why is there so little melody in modern classical music?” has a bit of a semantic trap: The definition of “classical“ music. There’s a great deal of modern melodic “classical“ music, in fact it’s probably the most popular form and the most successful form. However, this music has been written for a specific audience and situation: the world of cinema. One reason I love the violinist Angèle Dubeau and the ensemble La Pietà is that they cheerfully ignore this distinction, and perform and record collections of beautiful, often-melodic “classical“ music from the worlds of cinema, gaming, and “serious“ composers. Would love to see you cover music for cinema, from Korngold to Richter!

Love the Hadestown shoutout! So good

Hi David, big fan of your videos and have a question for your next q&a. How could one go about studying classical music without going to school for it? I do plan on going to a university at some point but won’t be able to for at least a couple of years. I have a lot of music theory knowledge and can analyze pop songs and some jazz songs pretty well, but when it comes to classical music I feel like there are a lot of big holes in my knowledge. Should I just pick up full scores and start digging through them or are there any other resources you would recommend?

Awesome ❤❤❤

# We need more melody lines!!!

I see in this video behind you several instruments, oboe, recorders, french horn, trumbone, bass guitar, and ukulele. If you play them all, I'm impressed. The oboe and french horn are difficult instruments to learn.

It may interest you then to know that I grew up very near Prince's studio. For a couple of summers, I would drive past it every to and from my classes.

It seems that "modern music" has one guiding principle which is through out anything that smells of the past. Also, a pursuit that says "look at me!, look at me!". I am still waiting for the "Great Leap Forward" in music composition.

Great video!

I think melody disappeared from classical music slowly with the advent of new popular forms, often driven by newly created instruments. The public was fascinated with the electric guitar, for example, so they listened to music with the electric guitar. And if you're a composer who plays electric guitar, why not write stuff with memorable melodies so that people think back on your work with a smile? So people naturally moved away from classical music to newer forms of music, and those composers who had studied the classical forms saw themselves getting less and less attention, and retreated from a desire to please the public with wonderful melody to a desire to please themselves and the fellow composers who decided to stick with classical music in spite of it all. In this way, classical music became associated with snobbery and academicism. The public saw people who refused to try the new musical forms and the new musical instruments (despite how good they were) as being judgmental of it-and of them for liking it. Thereby did classical music evolve: Since it was no longer about pleasing the public, you could try any experiment, any intellectual premise for your composition. Serialism and many other wretched(-sounding) things were created out of it. The public hates it; it sounds like absolute garbage. But if you understand it in the only way you can, which is academically, then you can derive a different kind of enjoyment which is not based on an enjoyment of melody. The biggest classical music composers today usually use the "neo-" prefix. And why? Simply because they hearken back to a time when melody, and a desire to actually please people, was prominent. They are your soundtrack composers, John Williams being the tippy-top. He calls himself a neo-romantic because of his romantic-styled melody. I don't think there's anything wrong with experimenting with intellectual premises in composition. It all depends on what your goals are. But if you want to please the public, for god's sake put some melody in it.

It sounds like, from the video, that maybe, the melody we constantly get from Bach, Handel, Mozart through Chopin up to Rachmaninov is an exception rather than the rule.