Fighters like Charles Oliveira, Brian Ortega, Diego Lopes, are all jiu jitsu based fighters yet fighters like Islam Makhachev, Arman Tsarukyan and others seem to out grapple them. Today, we discuss the pitfalls with BJJ
I remember after Khabib retired thinking the LW division was still a great division but there was no clear dominant fighter at the time. I thought the belt could have even changed hands a few times before seeing someone rise to the top. What do Bronx accomplished really was special. The champion had a name and his name was Charles Oliveira.
Problem with BJJ is that it accepts being on the back as a tolerable position. You can be good at Jiu Jitsu, but still prefer top control, like the Dagestani Brothas. Top control and pressure > being on your back.
So true, that’s why you see BJJ guys sit with closed guard, BJJ would dominate wrestlers once again if they trained sweeps/escapes from the back, k guard and or x guard
@@ChisholmLease ehh, one could say that dagestani not being able to fight from their back is also a weakness, that is why you only see the elite doing well with their style, cuz your top game needs to be so dominant that it’s ok for you to have no bottom. Many many fights were won before from bottom, specially those that were pretty much lost. Top control is definitely overpowered, but having no bottom is not good either. also, dont call the dagestani style jiu jitsu, outside of Islam, most of them have no subs, and even Islam had most of his subs off of people who were almost out already. (the one against porrier was legit tho)
To be fair, being on your back is pretty tolerable with no strikes, even inching butt-first toward a guy is now threatening donkey guard. It's hard to score something for "realism" when there's no similar danger in the sport to keep it realistic. For example, some grappling sports consider being on your back a loss condition, and competitors unrealistically expose their back to avoid it because they don't have to fear chokes. As much of a joke it sounds, combat jiujitsu actually logically penalizes being on the back. Still not really realistic, so MMA is still the place to develop ground striking, even from the back.
At high levels of MMA competition, it's easier to counter BJJ than to execute BJJ submissions. I don't think its a money issue but a offense vs defense issue
Yes that’s true, but BJJ will be taken to the next level once sweep escapes and sweep subs becomes more popular, even the infamous Dagestani wrestlers have been swept by x guard & k guard
I mean that's not true with modern bjj. MMA guys have no idea on how to defend the new systems of attack that New Wave, B Team, Atos and other bjj gyms use
Low levels too. I have a blue belt and went back to MT because I can stuff takedowns, defend most subs, employ some, and prefer striking. Also...it's boring af compared to MT.
In round 2, Arman looked at the clock, saw only a few seconds left and got up to get some big shots in before the end of the round. Without that, the armbar would've never even been there. What's more interesting was the end of round 3, Arman wasn't really getting choked, but I wonder if he could've actually gotten out if there were no timer
@@anasalami1561 Nope. I've rewatched that moment just because of your comment, because that's not how i remembered it. The triangle was tight. He would be able to finish the choke by underhooking the leg, AND the elbow was in perfect breaking position, very near his hip, granting a lot of space to thrust.
Top position is still a superior position in BJJ, especially with strikes. When you have wrestlers that have enough bjj knowledge to survive in the guard, the bottom man will lose.
@@jimhendericks khabib has been swept by the k guard before, I forgot the fighters name it started with a K his first or last name, he escaped khabib’s mount with a k guard swept, k guard & x guard works, it doesn’t matter who you’re up against, nobody is invincible, BJJ guys just on average use close guard because it’s the lazy man’s way
@@realtruth1448 I'm not trashing BJJ, I used to train to I'm a grappling fan, I watch ADCC, etc. You have to think about percentages though, in a fight with strikes from top, you most likely don't want to be on the bottom 90% of the time. See Ryan Hall. (I'm not saying BJJ is useless, Torpuria is a black belt himself. You just have a natural advantage cause you can do serious damage from the top. How often do you roll with strikes?
@@jimhendericks I don’t think you understand what I’m saying here... x guard & k guard are ways to escape from the bottom so you don’t grounded & pounded... and both lead to leglock submissions or an armbar
Top level BJJ guys don't often bother levelling up their offensive wrestling and they don't care about being taken down since they can fuck people up with their submissions But wrestlers who have decent bjj neutralize this and their offensive wrestling becomes a threat that was not expected Charles really should have accepted the invitation from Islam, he's at a weird spot rn in the division. Hope we have one last great push from him 🎉
Garry Tonon has been doing well at ONE submitting people by whatever he wants to. Granted...he's fighting cans and got hammer fist KO'd while trying to leg lock a dude one time but overall pretty effective.
That leglock attempt was forced and sloppy, when shooting for leglocks in mma if you cannot sink it in within a few seconds you won’t be capable of subbing him, because he’ll react and pound you, granted if you’re subbing his leg from behind you have a few more seconds to work with
@@realtruth1448the problem actually was that he entered to outside ashi, which is an entanglament with no kuzushi. Other leg entanglaments like 50/50 work fine in MMA
I mean, the new japanese fighters in MMA essentially do that for their gameplans. Both Tatsuro Taira and Rey Tsuruya for example are always looking for takedowns, dominant positions and submissions, using plenty of unorthodox moves in the MMA landscape, showing a large variety of techniques.
Saying this as someone who's been training BJJ for a few years (and also trains in boxing): jiu-jitsu can be too focused on groundfighting and the guard. I see the guard as a last-ditch stalling effort and it can present submission opportunities but it's too limited a position for a full fight and inherently dangerous in an actual self-defense position unless you lock it on super tight (which a lot of beginners won't know how to do). BJJ needs to incorporate takedowns and throws if it wants to evolve and not get left in the dust. I've started training wrestling and judo for this and notice some other people are starting to as well. Jiu-jitsu in general needs to recognize the importance of stand-up fighting in general, including striking. (I notice BJJ specialists have problems with striking sometimes.)
The fact that people (mostly americans from what I've seen) are trying to discredit bjj in 2024 is crazy. We had paddy pimblet absolutely humiliate bobby green without connecting a single strike, putting him to sleep and snapping his arm in round 1. We had many fighters show great bjj in high level contests, jandiroba against lemos, oliveira against all those guys, and much more. We have fighters on high levels training bjj consistently, Tom Aspinall for example is a black belt and his fahter has a bjj team. But still, people take the times were the fighters lose and proceed to say bjj "fails" in mma, or that it doesnt work when punching is allowed. Its almost as if they're rooting for bjj's downfall or something, lol. But the thing is, it will never happen. It's just getting more popular and will continue to be proven effective and trained by fighters
Jujitsu is good, but you also have to learn wrestling skills. It's 2 different things. Elite wrestlers train jujitsu and then wipe the flour with blackbelts
The thing is that modern jiujitsu is just that, wrestling with submissions. ADCC is actually a submission Wrestling championship. When more guys like the Ruotolos come to MMA they will do a great work
If BJJ was ineffective none of these guys would be training it in order to defend it so well. And if you think these guys aren’t training bjj you don’t know shit about fighting. Even if they are not training bjj officially they all bring submissions specialists in their camps to pick apart this fighting style. And it’s obviously effective. Even despite that we still saw Bobby Green get out to sleep in a triangle 2 cards ago.
The fact that people (mostly americans from what I've seen) are trying to discredit bjj in 2024 is crazy. We had paddy pimblet absolutely humiliate bobby green without connecting a single strike, putting him to sleep and snapping his arm in round 1. We had many fighters show great bjj in high level contests, jandiroba against lemos, oliveira against all those guys, and much more. We have fighters on high levels training bjj consistently, Tom Aspinall for example is a black belt and his fahter has a bjj team. But still, people take the times were the fighters lose and proceed to say bjj "fails" in mma, or that it doesnt work when punching is allowed. Its almost as if they're rooting for bjj's downfall or something, lol. But the thing is, it will never happen. It's just getting more popular and will continue to be proven effective and trained by fighters
The crazy thing is that's what modern nogi grappling looks like. Lots of scrambling and subs off of that be it leg entries, D'arces, back takes, etc. But we're not seeing modern BJJ in the UFC at the highest levels yet. Some of the Japanese guys coming in are more built like that and of course Kade joining ONE's MMA team will likely change that in the future, but for now the old guard is getting all the attention.
@@Reflectionmaterial lotta subs available from top position. Arm triangles, D’arces, mounted triangles, RNC and twister from rear mount, Kimura/keylock. You don’t have to give up dominant positions to get a submission.
@@CaPnBaLlBaG exactly, so the goal is to get on top. Aka wrestling. And when you do there time is limited before the round ends, so the fastest way to inflict damage and steal the round and perhaps even finish the fight is ground and pound.
@@Reflectionmaterial the two aren’t mutually exclusive. I think ground and pound’s best utility is to set up the submission. You aren’t any more stable doing GnP than you are throwing up subs. You lack tools to base with when they’re smashing face and are every bit as susceptible to reversal. Using ground and pound to advance the position and west out your opponent before slapping on a sub is the Dagestani blueprint.
8:30 Combat Sambo includes striking ground and pound, when Khabib said Sambo > BJJ, he clearly meant in MMA, not in no Gi jacket BJJ tournaments. In Sambo matches they use Gi jackets, and Uali is a Judo specialist with Gi jackets, not a Jiujitsu no jacket specialist, so obviously Ruotolo had advantage in no jackets BJJ tournament. Also Makhachev clearly become a Combat Sambo World champ in 2016 FIAS organization, same with Uali did in 2019 FIAS. Khabib won 2 Combat Sambo World Gold Medals in 2009 and 2010 in WCSF organizations as well.
Because us BJJ guys train without strikes! Strikes change EVERYTHING! Especially against a trained MMA guy. Against the average Joe, it rarely matters, so BJJ is still a super power in that sense.
What about for example NickyRyan? Wouldnt he be a BJJ guy with wrestling? If you contrast that to NickyRod or ,for better conparability because of weightclasses, JayRod (who was a better wrestler than his brother), than it looks different
There’s still plenty of bottom dominant jiu jitsu athletes to this day, actually if you’re speciality is leg locks than playing bottom is at your advantage. The problem with full guard in MMA is that you’re more open to get punched than other positions. But saying that oliveira’s style of jiu jitsu is 30 years behind is non sense. Full guard can be used for many strong subs that can also be traps to transition into sweeps, backtakes and such. Of course having a good takedown + dominant top game is still the strongest way to fight in mma, but bottom is not as weak as you make it seem imo.
A lot of the younger Japanese cats in the game now plus Kade are probably going to change the way the MMA community looks at BJJ within the next few years. Successful or not, their jiujitsu represents the more modern approach to the sport and I think it's going to take a lot of guys off guard (pun intended).
ADCC fighters can recover quickly and fight multiple times within a weekend as well. In MMA, if you win within 30 seconds, you are done for the month. Even twice in a month is considered too few fights in ADCC
It's very simple: Jiu Jitsu specialists don't know how to throw a professional punch or kick. When someone like me jacks you in the face with a 1000 pound punch or kicks you in the solar plexus with a 2800 pound kick, your ass is going to hit the deck and probably won't be getting up. BJJ specialists practice in a gym with no striking allowed, so they neither learn how to block an A+ strike nor do they ever learn how to throw a strike above C- level.
These reasons described are also why BJJ is both great but also really bad for self defense Ya submissions are great, & yoh get a lot of "pressure-testing" & real competition, but it habituates a slow pace & the closed guard as a default (which is what people fall back on -no pun intended- during an adrenaline dumb) Wrestling & Judo with some more submissions & boxing is best
BJJ is better for self-defense, always was. Wrestlers can't fight from their back, which is where you're more likely to be against a bigger attacker. BJJ isn't just about submissions.
@@tjl4688 Fighting off your back is better than fighting on your back 99% of the time The best part about BJJ is the sweeps & if you have 300 pound twins on top of 1 wrestler & 1 BJJ guy about the same size with roughly the same level of skill/experience relative to their art, the wrestler will do better against their big guy
The art of not getting to a bottom mounted full guarded position has been misconstrued by the sheer evolution of wrestling and striking , making everyone very confident in their ability to fight off the back , even tho it was never a position to look to be in . In the first place . Just a place to escape
Brian Ortega doesn’t intentionally put himself in bad spots and a lot of his submissions are gotcha’s and done very quickly, he’s set up triangles from Mount, guillotines in standing and an anaconda choke also from standing. I think that’s a much better modern way to use BJJ. He doesn’t purposefully play in full guard as much as Charles is willing to do
It’s mma. The highest level of mma trains lots of jiu jitsu. It’s easier to defend and destroy set ups and submission than create them. It’s simple. If a high level wrestler is able to avoid take downs and avoid jiu jitsu it works well if he gets taken down he usually trains lots of jiu jitsu defense and are able to survive because his understanding of jiu jitsu. If he falls on top and just avoid subs lay and prays it works well too. Remember it’s mma. It would nice to an mma no time limit with the top guys when when exhausted the most technical guys would most of the time take over over strength and power guys. Also let’s talk about not being able to kick someone in their face when they are down ( I mean kicking from doing guard on your back ) 😂 the most effective way of protecting yourself from the back while historically even soccer kicks to a down opponent was a possibility in pride FC times.
A lot of BJJ guys don’t know how to keep someone down. A lot of them do not accept the top position is objectively superiority. They underestimate the impact of physical conditioning and find themselves unable to set up anything when they are getting controlled. Also who cares about passing guard if the opponent can pummel you from half guard. Edit: to be fair it IS getting better. But a lot are not there yet imo.
Charles in Arman fight was kinda sharp. If you recall, in 3 round he had 3 deep submission attempts - extremely deep guillotine in first, last second deep armbar in second, last second Darce in third. Would you really call his style in Arman fight a mistake if he kinda succeed 3 times?
Yea half these guys take full minutes to set up submissions against other high level grapplers. It gets a whole lot harder when you’re allowed to ground and pound, then you’re not gonna be proficient on your back. Wrestling is the best grappling sport because it teaches you to gain top position and not be comfortable on your back where you can get your head bounced of the mat. Instead you can look for submissions and strikes, while from your back you might catch someone with a close range elbow. Wrestling is on top and always has been.
It’s SUPPOSED to simulate a fight with no shirt on and rules to prevent death. The reason the glove can’t be grabbed is because it’s not really supposed to be there, it’s to protect the hands. Same reason you can’t grab someone’s mouth guard or clothes
Yeah closed guard without collar grips just doesn't offer the control options to keep you safe from a skilled top guy. Half guard with its trilema pathway to the back, legs/butterfly, and wrestle up/hoisting reversals is where it's at guard wise, and honestly what craig jones is doing with that reverse Z thing is neat too. But legs, back, and power ride/leg ride stuff is where it's at in no gi. Along with standup grappling and standing up from bottom of course.
The rules the rules are disadvantageous. You cant kick your oponnent face when he is inside the guard. When the opponent is inside your closed guard you cant grab your and use your heels to hit the kidneys.
Its ridiculous people say, oh bjj isnt enough, you need to know how to wrestle. Stand up "wrestling" techniques have always been part of the bjj skill set. Don't make excuses when you go to a lame gym that teaches modern sport jiu jitsu. Go to a proper bjj gym that teaches stand up bjj techniques, they have always been part of bjj. People saying sitting and working off your back is "old school" is ridiculous. That's new school. Old school has a tonne of stand up. Saying otherwise is just ignorance of bjj history. Go watch original gracie challenges and you'll see. Take downs, kicks, punches are all part of traditional bjj fighting.
6:26 just a small nitpick but I doubt Gordon has the attributes to even hypothetically compete in a heavyweight division. I would see him more likely at a light heavy division
So if Dustin or Justin weren't scared they would be celebrating a Charles win in their record? Islam and Arman did not have fear because of their skillset
To summarize all of wrestling to takedowns and pins is a bit egregious if you solo did Folkstyle sure I’d maybe agree but Greco Roman is so much more than that. I learned countless throws in wrestling. As well as body manipulation. I can’t speak for the other sports but at least with wrestling there is more than takedowns and pins.
This literally isn’t true, leg locks yes. Wrestling heavy focus no. Most people spam half guard and guard retention for leg locks. Barley anyone actually wrestles even in new gen jiu jitsu
Wrestling, judo, bjj is more like rock-paper-scissors. In mma, bjj guy goat beaten by wrestler, wrestler get beaten by judoka, judoka got beaten by bjj guy.
Why do people give ao much praise to Nicky Rods wrestling? Dude did 1 year of D3 and lost to every D1 wrestler he went against and they all had losing records.
BJJ doesn't fail. People mistake a handful of people with an entire msrtial arts style. And btw what the top 5 fighters in UFC do or don't do has almost zero relevance to YOUR real life.
I wonder if that Kajan guy is onto something with his style of staying high. He got leglocked recently from not anticipating a loss of stability from the guy widening his legs, but still looks interesting to my uninformed brain.
Dagestan grappling is better for mma grappling than bjj cause bjj puts the feeling of bottom to not be to bad but high level bjj guys are dangerous in the ufc
