Despite "freedom" being a Chaos word, I'd like to see more Law routes mention the freedoms of surviving without having to look over your shoulder constantly for danger (given the apocalyptic settings). Describing Law with phrases like "being freed from having to think" just sound bad flat-out, but "not having to think about when my next meal might be" or "not worrying about being alone, since I know there are others who care about my well-being" actually feel like proper benefits. Taking that line of thinking and make it a gradual slow-burn into dire consequences makes more sense than "Kill the infidels" straight off the bat.
Well law will come off as saying, "you will be bound to your station but you shall find peace and fulfillment within it" Translation: you will be a slave, but will be a happy slave"
I think it’d be cool if there were a better spread of alignments. Like you said with mastema and satan, why not have characters that represent endings like law-neutral and chaotic-neutral?
Law is written in the most unlikable way possible. It lacks any of the cool qualities of lawful behavior like discipline, getting over your own weakness, asceticism, stoicism, holding strong beliefs or opposition to subjectivity. It goes full "you're a bitch" and that's it.
The way they wrote the law route in SMTV was HORRIBLE. They’re like “Give up your individuality” and “There’s no way to avoid your doom and save your country”. Abdiel was especially annoying about that. Idk if that’s how it’s supposed to be but...
I have to wonder if that's Law's infamous spectre of Japanese values creeping in... For context, Law route is supposed to just be inherently likable to a Japanese audience because the unspoked subtext is things Japanese people like. Self-sacrifice. Stoicism. Tradition. Respect for seniority. This contrasts with the Chaos route that instinctively should be the evil faction representing anarchy and selfishness, but when you actually listen to them they have a point and a cause they believe in and actual pragmatism. This makes me wonder if the Japanese writers DID put "discipline, getting over your own weakness, asceticism, stoicism, holding strong beliefs or opposition to subjectivity" in the game, but on a subtler level. A level that Japanese fans will pick up as part of the background noise, but Western fans won't notice. Conversely if this theory is true, the reason chaos appeals to Western fans immediately is because it's filled with Westerners love like rebel leaders, guile and cunning, and appeal to individuality -- while a Japanese person would consider these a risky trade-off, but a Western fan would consider the downsides as a natural cost of business
@@TARINunit9 Law is above all how the japanese see the abrahamic faiths, maybe there are confucian aspects to it like you said but confucianism seems to be all over the place in the games rather than being a law-aligned religion like the abrahamic ones are. In general eastern religions seem to be either neutral (such as taoism, see SMT1) or chaos-aligned (buddhism, most shinto demons, etc.).
@Kroketa You might like _Strange Journey Redux's_ True Law ending, then. The Law rep from that game goes against the other angels when it becomes clear they just want to enslave humanity.
I definitely feel like emphasizing altruistic desires like "being nice/helpful to those in need" or "genuinely giving a shit about making people's lives better" would give Law a better fighting chance. Maybe some form of hedonistic utilitarianism position (maximizing happiness for the most amount of individuals) would have enough pros and cons to argue over to make it interesting? Or even highlighting how mundane laws/regulations (seatbelts, banned toxic materials, workers' rights, natural disaster aid, et cetera) are often borne from a desire to not let fellow humans get screwed over by outside forces.
Rock How about DeSu: Overclocked 8th Day Amane route? It focuses on that as the player character is witnessing some Angel incinerating a thug while stealing a purse because he was given so many chances to change his ways previously but has squandered them. The player then tries to prove to the Angels that he can change those are “irredeemable” for their past actions. The day goes on to when you do achieve this, and the Angels are impressed by this saying that they thought it was impossible. You continue to do this throughout the day, but there is one occasion where you have to sick either Demons or Angels on a Psycho Cop who is about to blow a woman’s head off. But not the entire 8th Day is that, only a good chunk of it.
@Kroketa It would be better If instead of killing people with the gods knowledge the angels send them to a Bethel HQ afther explaning the situation for them and afther everything was solved they would be free
Yea im just not fond of the idea of "dont think for yourself just let God guide you". Like i prefer the Strange Journey Redux law route cuz it actually does something good for humanity without making them mindless devotees of Big G
In real life, law is the code you choose to follow. It isn’t a denial of self but a refining force. Yes, you restrain yourself. Yes, you occasionally have to choose something you don’t want to do because it is the the right thing. When I tried playing Strange Journey because I found the presentation of Law to be so offputting and Chaos as unacceptable. But because Law options are so out of sorts and chaos is what it is, I tend to find the character getting pushed down the chaos route more than neutral or Law and I’m definitely not down for that because I see where their chaos road ends and I’m not about it. Law cannot be forced on others. It is a contract within your own heart. Anything that goes beyond this is evil.
I don't really have a problem with either, but the issue is that Law either goes way too far or not far enough. while I personally think SMT IV's Law ending is humanity's best chance at survival, let alone happiness, I'm not about to ignore the massive foundation of blood and corpses it is built upon.
I feel like part of the issue is that the Chaos route has that obvious "freedom" ideal they people can immediately latch on to, with the "survival of the fittest" mindset being a natural side effect, but Law routes usually push the "No free will" aspect as the primary point of the philosophy, with the "protecting humanity" being secondary. The actual appeal of the philosophy is portrayed as secondary to the negative parts, which is probably part of why Chaos is naturally more appealing. But then, even as you try to dig deeper into it, most Law characters seem to see the appeal as "order." The issue there is that order, as a concept, needs to have a clear purpose you agree with to be appealing. And in SMT, that purpose tends to boil down to "order is easier to control." And unless you're going to be the one in control, that purpose probably isn't compelling enough to commit to. Tl;dr: Law route isn't usually appealing because the writing fundamentally misunderstands the actual appeal of "Law" and "Order."
They have to work to make law unappealing since "you get to life a good long life as long as you pray to god" really isn't a bad thing, and since the franchise is usually against extremes mainline games twist it into "you live a long life but you're lobotomized" in later games. Meanwhile for Chaos they just have to repeat what Lucifer does in the bible, trick people with "freedom and pleasures" even though in the end only demons will be free and humans will be dead anyway, and no one will think beyond "ooh, freedom!".
I like more the neutral route Ideally speaking, it does take the most effort out of the player, as it should considering that finding a balance between freedom and order irl is a balancing act
True Tbh when I had a disdain towards the law alignment in each game it was mostly cuz I had a knee jerk reaction of "freedom = good", without fully realizing that Chaos is just as hierarchical if not moreso than law, because at least law has the excuse of "we do terrible things but in service of benefitting some people" Sure in SMT IV's law route you have to genocide tokyo but it's shown to be the only way to preserve the paradise of equality for humans above the firmament. Chaos allows slavery, genocide, pillaging, all of the worst crimes of humanity simply because some random mf decided he wanted to do so and was strong enough to kill anyone in his way. Chaos wants to get rid of the old power structure and reinstate a new one that is just as if not moreso tyrannical than the prior one. I'm not a law fan per say more just anti-chaos
The real answer really comes from the fact that the franchises continues repeating SMT I and II all over and over, with the Angels being always as part of a antagonistic force until the very late game and a seeming disconnect with Law actions and Law Characters. Plus, Law routes usually tend to have LESS content that other routes. Doesn't help that Lucifer is one of the franchise's mascots while Law characters switch game per game.
Is it though! I mean the Three Reason Representatives of Nocturne that represent Law (no matter which one, they all feel like "Law" representatives to each of the three main Alignments! Law-Law, Law-Neutral, Law-Chaos) and both are extreme....like say "three certain Archangels who usually go too far! SMT 4 was again "The Archangels" and Five would be the only one where their not even in it if I remember straight! (I did see their statues along with Gabby early on!). But yeah, Five is MAJOR SPOILERS Like the only time Luci ISN'T the main representative of Chaos, despite leading Chaos (in that you can side with him) SPOILERS Reduced to a Disc One Boss LOL But even then he kind of got what he wanted in the end "AS ALWAYS" Found it funny in 4A where Law and Chaos had to work together to fight Neutral (as always), and now you had Law and Neutral having to fight Chaos!
@@paulman34340 yeah, if there's one thing I hate more than Law's portrayal, it's the fact that modern Megami Tensei always ends with the Devil getting EXACTLY what he wants.
@@paulman34340 The Archangels do exist, but only as optional bosses in a seide quest where Melchizedek wants you to subdue them because they once again are serving Baal (yet another Nocturne reference)
As someone whose actions align with law, and despite the fact that the law themes are easily my favorite, it's easily my least favorite route. Going against my morals to commit genocide in the name of the lord just absolutely disgusts me.
I feel the same way. I have only played SMT4 in regards of mainline Smt, and choosing the options I liked at that time(usually the ones about being nice to others) I got locked into law. As it was my second SMT game (my first was Devil Summoner, and I had only gotten two endings) I tough law would make me do good things for the people and killing demons. I wouldn't say I hated it, but having to kill everyone in Tokyo didn't felt right with my choices.
Haven’t played SMT yet but from what I understand about Japan and western religions that don’t really like them that much and most depictions are negative. A better route end would be everyone is saved but no one has a choice. Morally questionable but creates order. Better than just straight up genocide in my opinion
I really don't get why they have to tack on a bunch of morally questionable things, like genocide or mass brainwashing. A lawful world already has a balanced set of benefits and downsides, so what gives?
YHVH is heavy old testament. Flood the world becasue to many people have sin, burn down this town that has sin, he has ordered quite the body count in the old testament so that's why it seems off to modern people, since Jesus and new testament is almost a complete 180, practically someone different.
I mean devil survivor is unanimously agreed to have the best alignment system, where all the alignments are appealing and not edgy radical "bad" endings.
I think the real issue is the way yhvh is portrayed. Him being an ruthless tryant is unappealing if they showed potential positives in his portrayal and not just the idea of law itself I imagine more people would like the law route considering even if you join him you have to kill him in some games which i dont you do for lucifer ever on chaos routes
That's the distinction between _Law_ and _Compassion._ The God of SMT is a lawful one, but he is not compassionate. I didn't know about it until I read this comment section, but the Law ending in SMT Nine understands this and has you dethrone YHVH and instate Maria, who is far more humane by comparison.
YHVH is a higher being, a complete multiversal entity that rules over everything with absolute tyranny and dominance. You don't expect humans to be symphatetic to ants, so as you shouldnt expect Gods to be symphatetic to humans. SMT follows the biblical role, in perspective of Law, they are giving humankind a second chance, because humankind already wasted it when they got tainted by Lucifer on Eden when Adam ate the Apple of Knowledge. By their eyes, humankind is no longer children of God, but entirely different. Law is not compassionate. Law is a dictation, a decree. It is molded to be unbreakable and emotionless with only a goal to destroy those who wreck Order.
@@gluttony8986 you can also considerate that Humans in Smt literally do worse things than the human in real life(from a God point of view) like summoning demons or trying to kill God in order to accomplish their sellfish desires To quote Nuwa in Smt V "People who rebel against God aren't any better they are just cretins trying to achieve their own sellfish desires"(something among these lines) Btw this don't justify some actions of YHVH(in defense of Him, his worst action was in Smt IV law ending, right? But If i could tell that Law in IV din't had anything related to YHVH, in the DLC's it's revealed that the Angels were acting for themselves)
Bruh they want me to side with a god that is dead and an angel that openly wants to kill me. I genuinely thought about destroying the throne because Shokei Yakumo was so cool. And in law we got happy Ryuju 😭
Just finished my first playground and I went with yakumo and nuwa, they just make the most sense, atsuta's route would cause chaos and war between the myriad gods but also YHVH is dead in smtv meaning its best for humanity to rule themselves
I felt like Abdiel was a kind angel tbh, she was just conflicted and in denial, by looking at Nahobino he directly confronted her faith and loyality to God so she act in that way towards you, but she was really kind for most humans and Ichiro
@@redrix1787 i will go with Yakumo and Nuwa because they make more sense at that point Lucifer will only cause trouble, God is dead, Law became a bunch of angels in denial, the other gods are just hungry for power and the demons would kill humans Humans rulling among all that shit is the right path (dunno If every Demon dies in that ending, but in the true path Aogami and Amanozako dies and hey you can kill everyone but killing them, Iddun and every Jack Frost is unforgivable lol)
When it comes to Law characters, I can usually see their point of view and why they would go that route. Such as Jonathan from SMTIV and Zelenin from SMT Strange Journey. Yet the path itself in some of the games never really made me wanna go to their side as much as the chaos or neutral route where it speaks to me more or makes sense to go in that game’s world. I guess it’s cause they present the Law side too ‘devious’ or something like that? I’m still currently playing SMTV so I wonder if that’ll change or at least have a different take.
Hard agree on this, I love Jonathan and Zelenin, but I feel like the path and the results of the choice always feels so…wrong? Spoilers for SMTIV: - - - - But like SMTIV having God decide that Tokyo should be stuck underground in apocalyptic town, and then deciding that it shouldn’t exist and we should die with it all cause of demon exposure always seems so fucked. The only reason people had to deal and work with demons is because they had no other choice, cause God forced them away. I understand Jonathan’s reasoning for siding with God from a personal level, but it’s hard to side with the being that caused Tokyo to be like that. And that kind of feeling kinda extends to my thoughts to other law endings as well.
@@lukezane7952 actually god wanted tokyo gone like the rest of humanity. It was a neutral demon, the japanese one, that protected Tokyo from the nukes.
Its easy to default to fear as a reason to go into law people by nature tend to like things to be orderly and SMT games tend to take place in lawless cruel wastelands and it can be tempting to side with law when someone like Jonathan saves a kid from getting eaten by a demon. Thats why you join law but then like 5 mins later an angel says "MAN it sure is great to be brainwashed by god, am i right guys?" and then you ask clarifying questions and its clear this is a cult. So its like Law is telling you why you shouldnt join, but Chaos tries to sweep it under the rug untill its too late
@@lukezane7952 in IV (without Apocalypse), God isn't even there, it's mostly the Four Archangels doing things with their own hand and "stole" God's authority, Lucifer style. That's why Mastema believes that he's in the right. And the reason why they want to nuke Tokyo is because they lack cocoons that could purify the people of Tokyo to become more like the people of Mikado, who are unable to commit evil, and is able to create a peaceful society into eternity
@@lukezane7952 my god, smt 4 law route pissed me off. Like you spend the entire game being a good person and helping people and you're rewarded with commiting genocide
I agree that the characters are a part of why I dont like law. In smt II Zayin literally throws you off a tower if you dont choose law while Louis Cyphre just warns you that you will be enemies the next time you meet.
@@onewingedren2228 SMT Series' Cosmology is falling down to one of various Gnostic Schools and Sects of Christianity with their separate Apocryphal Gospels from Canonical Gospels, which relegates YHVH figure into a Demiurge/Chief Archon with imperfection all while fulfilling the role of OT deity, whereas Axiom being the True God and Stephen being a rebranded Enoch after ascending and transfigured into Axiom's version of Metatron as Apocryphal Book of Enoch's lore portrayed
Zelenin is also a fantastic Law pick. Let's be real, she's not a trained soldier. She just witnessed her comrades get tortured, slaughtered and had their corpses picked apart by demons while trapped in an eldritch extradimensional space full of those demons. I wouldn't blame her for wanting to be saved by angels.
I cant like Zelenin that much because, like you said she isnt a soldier. So why does she keep going out into the field unprotected while refusing to use the one thing keeping everyone safe? Yeah she gets 1 angel but thats it, thats nothing in terms of real protection later on, especially since she isnt fighting so it isnt getting stronger nor fusing with anything. If you dont want to use demons either have a couple escorts with you at all times or stop going into the field of demons. Thats not even getting into all the brainwashing that happens later. Jiminez was a way more compelling character to me
@@Pikachuington tbf, I only remember her having issues before we (Mastema) rescue her. After that, her combat (in)effectiveness... Does it ever play a role in the story? It's mostly going for Mastema for advice.
@@Pikachuington Jiminez also brainwash the crew with the parasite if you side with him so he isn't better there plus he is a hypocrite on the original chaos ending due to Bugaboo saving his life
@@denkerbosu3551 You mean in sector bootes with the cells? I know theres a part in sector d where she radios for you to rescue her because she, alone, got surrounded by demons and got stuck in a hiding spot. And aside from one scene in sector e its never shown her having escorts guarding her, so it bothered me seeing her out in the field knowing she doesnt have any real protection around in an area literally filled with demons out for blood, capable of taking down actual soldiers
I’ve been playing Strange Journey Redux recently, and I totally forgot about the part about how Zelenin spared Ryan from Jimenez. And it totally comes back to bite them since Ryan killed the Red Sprite Soldiers that were supervising the Lightning, so that they were cooperating. And after it’s clear Ryan and some of the Lightning Crew plan to eliminate the Red Sprite, Zelenin still insists that violence won’t fix the problem trying to rebuttal every the crew has against having to solve the conflict with violence, even though they pretty much have guns pointed at them and no amount of negotiating will turn them around. If Zelenin didn’t have Jimenez consider spare Ryan, they wouldn’t be in that situation, and none of their crew would have to die so needlessly. Zelenin also has a bad habit on relying on other people for help, not even power sometimes just ideas. Jonathan definitely doesn’t seek others because he is weak, neither does Ronaldo.
I feel like if a Law route took a more of a New Testament approach, where both angels and prophets decide to act more compassionate towards humanity and specially those who consider "sinners", it would make it more appealing. If the law route offered you a highest position as say God's "Ultimate Shephard" that will go around the world trying to save as much humans as possible and convincing them to join you on the Law side. You would still appeal to the humanity's need of free will by giving them a choice while also doing good and protecting them, sorta like "Our side's grass is greener" kind of deal. Imagine Finn's whole deal as a Messiah but with a Law focus and the reason why you're fighting Chaos is because in the mid/long run will be bad for all people, regressing them to something that's not human anymore. The reason why christianity is way more appealing than say othrodox catholicism is because joining and following the teaching is because YOU want to, and you felt inspired by the teachings of Jesus or his disciples. It recognizes you're human, and thus prone to make mistakes, but it encourages virtues to help you as a better person, helping you through tough times as a comfort and respite and sees sinners as not heretics, but people that need a light to change for the better.
I think a big reason why they don't do it like that is to give a reason to choose other routes. If SMT law was like actually Christianity then there would never be a reason to NOT choose it.
Orthodox Catholicism? What kind of crack pot theology do you follow? Catholicism is Christianity, possibly the oldest known branch of it. I assume what you refer to as "Christianity" is Protestantism which has a long history of shit talking Catholics as "not real Christians".
@@reiappreciator957 no, they are a hijacking, an usurpation of Jesus's original teachings for the sake of earthly power. Definitely a tool of satan. Atleast at this point, but the early catholic church showed signs of great corruptions, as evidenced by Paul's books of the bible.
Ironically Law kind of feels like the "evil" choice in most games with alignment systems. Not so much because the alignment itself is "evil", but it veers so far into a specific mentality that doesn't feel rational for anyone to really choose as a way of life. Evil choices in other games are kind of like that, where they are so overwhelmingly evil that you basically just become a psychopath if choose them over the good or neutral options. Not that I think Chaos is the "good" option either, since there's plenty to dislike about that path, but at least their concept of "freedom" can be interpreted any number of ways, and you don't necessarily have to believe in the "might makes right" mentality that some Chaos characters also follow. But if you go Law you have no choice to follow God's will to the letter, whether or not you disagree with parts of their ideals. It's usually why I go neutral first, since I don't like extremism. Sometimes that falls flat too though, like Nocturne's neutral ending.
I think the reason why they make almost overtop evil, is that law has stuff that people like; safety,order, helping others that are weak, etc. also if your Christian, Jewish, or Muslims you will have a bias to go to god’s side. so they wanted to show the trade off and downside if it, but smt goes over board with it
@@Condor2481 When done right I don't consider neutral "generic JRPG hero behavior". It's the "both/all your idealogies are extremist bullshit so I'm going my own path that I think is right." Like the SMT1 neutral path, where you still use your influence and power to create a new world, it's just not the Law or Chaos one. The boring way to do it is Nocturne, where you just end up resetting the world as it was and nothing changes. I disliked all the Reason paths in Nocturne, and I didn't particularly like the idea of being Lucifer's pawn either, but I was so disappointed in the neutral ending I was willing to settle for being a pawn on my next playthrough.
@@starmaker75 yeah. You pretty much summed up my thoughts on it. It's kinda like the genocide route in Undertale. In theory, it's a cool idea. "What if we took something that most people think is the correct choice, and challenge their thinking?" But the obvious arrows are telling you to go the "not normal" side. You have to actively ignore every single red flag, every "are you Suuurreee?" And the reward for going against the obvious path? Screw you bad ending. It feels railroad-y and makes me question why they give you an option in the first place.
I have to wonder if that's Law's infamous spectre of Japanese values creeping in... For context, Law route is supposed to just be inherently likable to a Japanese audience because the unspoked subtext is things Japanese people like. Self-sacrifice. Stoicism. Tradition. Respect for seniority. This contrasts with the Chaos route that instinctively should be the evil faction representing anarchy and selfishness, but when you actually listen to them they have a point and a cause they believe in and actual pragmatism. This makes me wonder if the Japanese writers DID put likable law characters in the game, but on a subtler level. A level that Japanese fans will pick up as part of the background noise, but Western fans won't notice. Conversely if this theory is true, the reason chaos appeals to Western fans immediately is because it's filled with Westerners love like rebel leaders, guile and cunning, and appeal to individuality -- while a Japanese person would consider these a risky trade-off, but a Western fan would consider the downsides as a natural cost of business
You're absolutely right, which is kind of ironic considering in SMT1 the Law route was a comment on american interventionism and hardcore church fanatics. Pair that with the fact that most western players are kinda sick of religion stuff and they're bound to go straight to Chaos just because of that.
I thought this as well. Especially with Shijima from nocturne. Buddhism is popular in Japan IIRC, so I think the idea of a "world of stillness" would be more appealing by default to a Japanese audience to a western one, hence why the assembly of nihilo were the bad guys for like 2/3 of the game.
This is how I thought of it too and it makes sense to me. Still. I feel for each route you have to look skeptically to fully understand each side completely and pay attention which puts law at a major disadvantage for all the reasons you said.
@@arowace498 I agree with your point in any game except SMTV (which I had not played when I wrote that comment, but have since beaten). Listening to the Chaos and Neutral factions just made them sound _really stupid_ (Chaos) and _freaking evil_ (Neutral, Yakumo especially). The Law ending was probably supposed to be risky because it would lead to Tokyo vanishing forever, but then in the Law ending the protagonist saves Tokyo anyway and even brings all the people killed by demons back to life. Law represents the status quo as usual, but the game fails to give any reasons why we might not want that; whereas Chaos and Neutral endings will (and do) lead to MASSIVE wars all over planet earth in the name of idealism. Heck, the Secret Fourth Ending is basically just Law 2.0, making me think the devs might have gotten sick of Law being the bad guy
@@TARINunit9 i didn't get the same impression at all but I think that's part of why I like this game so much. I'd like to hear what you think if you have time. I especially dissagree with you concerning neutral. Even though I don't agree with Yakumo and his callousness. I haven't finished all the routes yet though so maybe I'd end up agreeing in the end but so far neutral actually seemed most sympathetic. How can a system which started this conflict over and over again ever hope to end the conflict? The system is fundamentally broken, so it would be best to try something new, even if it lead to new problems. I don't see Yakumo as a perfect representative to the ideal but just someone who happens to align with your goals but is driven by something fundamentally flawed. I'm not sure what's exactly stupid about chaos but maybe its just my own perspective on life that says chaos is inevitable and not necessarily bad. Its like fighting death, there's no point. Law proved over and over again that trying to eliminate chaos leads to more of it. So embracing chaos without fighting it could actually be a more stable reality than one that tries and fails to achieve rigid order. This was the first ending I got and I liked it, they actually made it sound better than I thought they would. Of course, the survival of the fittest thing is only alluded to in that ending but is built as a core theme for chaos which makes it a lot less desirable to me. Order is actually the one that struck me as the least sympathetic. While order was good for those whom the God of law decided to favor it also abandoned and persecuted anyone who fell outside it. So the status quo that is being pursued is bad for most any other lifeform except for humans. I ended up liking the demons and wanted a future they could prosper in too so I didn't want to restore that order. Moreover angels are the group which constantly go about talking about eradicating demons with extreme prejudice to the ends of a genocide and that struck me as much more evil.
Yeah on one hand you get stuff like sandalphon, metatron, samael... but on the other humanity has to go through a 1000 year opressive regime and nobody gets to have free will 😐
The worst short-term consequences. The price paid in Law routes is usually something that very difficult but over in a matter of moments. In terms of long-term consequences, neutral and chaos got that shit bad
@@qumxlinger1081 in neutral and chaos you at least have a chance to make a change if the world sucks. If you go law then the changes come off as more permanent as you cant change the way things are with no will of your own.
Debatable if it's the worst consequences. Most people don't seem to realize how absolutely awful Chaos would be for the average person. Law is often nightmarish dystopia, but at least if you do what you're told you're usually not completely screwed.
Kaneko said himself that he didn’t originally intend YHVH to be the series’ ultimate evil in the Nocturne artbook. I honestly think that if not for 4A trying to string together all the mainline games into one big narrative, 2’s portrayal of him wouldn’t be so overwhelmingly dominant in terms of how people talk about Law.
well it actually doesnt cause the games try to be disconnected ( mostly so possiblilty for writing are there) and just drop fan service for fun cause otherwise not really all that together
Smt routes in general dont appeal to me. Its not like in fallout NV where you can legitimately debate and argue the pros and cons of each faction because in smt both options are as objectively fucked as the other so whats even the point.
To be fair, it is always disclosed early that god and the angels are just another set of demons in that universe. I mean you can recruit them, demon summoner. Shouldn't that make you a tiny bit cautious? Yeah, they all want to take over humanity, the Chaos and the Law demons alike. Hence neutral route usually being the best (and hardest). Exception being Nocturne, but only because Lucifer felt like giving you a few extra tasks (and it was seemingly worth the while, seeing how the Tokyo of SMT5 is ruled by him).
@@Mayhzon okay, so your first reaction to seeing someone say "all routes are bad" is to try and indoctrinate him into thinking "No, Neutral Good"? Neutral is just as bad as the rest, and angels being "summonable" doesn't really mean anything, since "demon" essentially applies to any sort of spiritual entity rather than just actual demons.
@@christopherbravo1813 Neutral is the only route where humanity usually retains it's free will, if you've noticed the SMT games. Law route = YVHW and the bois control the world after purging the old Chaos route = Lucifer and the bois control the world after plunging it into total Chaos That's how most SMT games go. Of course if you go in thinking that humanity isn't capable (*cough* modern politics), you'd have a point.
@@Mayhzon I'm not contesting that. for better or for worse, Neutral *is* usually the only route where humans retain freedom as we understand it. while I could go into detail regarding the "freedom" offered by both Law and Chaos respectively, I've started way too many alignment debates here and I don't wanna start another one if I can help it.
So far the Only Law Routes I've liked / played in SMT have been. Devil Survivor Overclocked Strange Journey Redux (Cause the Brainwashing is gone lol) SMTV (Cause I really like the reps and their mentality)
@@canaldecasta what 180? He on numerous occasions, finds solace on depending on someone. It's easy to see where it takes its logical extreme with the setting the game is set. Infinitely more interesting than dude who only have two personalities, "save Tokyo" and "my sister"
I feel like nahobino journey in SMT V makes more sense to be on law. For numerous reasons, tho I cannot explain because of spoiler. Also dazai's conviction and development makes more sense, compared to whatever yuzuru role is.
@@danieldossantos6092 I think Yuzuru would fit better as Law and Dazai would fit better as either Chaos or whatever flavor of Lawful Neutral Tsukuyomi is.
In general I like more the idea of order and security over the full freedom stuff from chaos. But for the games I have played until now, it seems that the order wants laws or rules that instead of serving the people, it is a way to commit genocide in the name of lord. It always feels that they focus more on killing the "bad" persons than protecting people.
"It always feels that they focus more on killing the "bad" persons than protecting people." That sounds pretty true to life though. Witch hunting the "bad" persons is all I ever hear about irl
@@vanilla8956 ok, that sounds fair tbh. The way they present it in the games is still pretty exaggerated for me tho, like God and angels seem to have a different way to punish and way too heavy. But I see what you're talking about
@@elcomp2178 well I feel that it’s because it needs to escalate. Just like how some real governments might start with saying stuff like Jonathan says and then end up like how the denizens of Mikado act like in the Law route. But yeah, it did go too far in a really silly way. Like that scene where all the angels are repeating the same line like drones, I would have thought it would be cool if one responded and said “You are not worth an original response” or something that kinda shows this is how these beings truly feel and that they have their reasons and beliefs instead of just blindly following
@@vanilla8956 I understand that in a law environment Atlus want to emphasize that there's not really individualism and yeah it sounds silly when they seem like drones. But my main problem is that if there's no sense freedom at least I could agree in their order or justice, but the fucking Law ending in SMT IV and their role in DeSu is way too fucked up. If I want them to work as the justice and order of humanity at least I should agree with them in that or they should simply get used to our way to do things.
In reality, I think I'd be slightly more law aligned but... law characters are nerds and never present a good case for their alignments. Always go neutral or chaos in SMT.
I feel like most people lean towards law or neutral just because of the society we live in. The problem is there's always a big jump between "yes I do believe we should be decent to each other" to "kill the nonbelievers".
Chaos usually isnt better its either demons or characters talking like Zaheer. I think we can assume by the devs want you to say fuck you to both sides more often than not
I wonder if the reason why there are less people who associate with law is because many of the people who would align with it are turned off from the iconography of the series i.e. the pentagram and demons. In turn I wonder if said iconography and the supposed "edgy" aesthetics of SMT draw people who would be more inclined into siding with chaos because of that. That's not to say that people who support chaos are edgelords, but that people who support chaos are more likely to be fine with said iconography and ideals compared to law aligned people.
I guess you are right, I'm an absolute follower of Law and only summon Angels, in fact even in real life I am into spiritual studies, etc and I love the Angels as figures, I agree with the ideals of Law and I think they are the only viable ones, but I guess you are right about people loving SMT to being mostly inclined to like devils and darkness than holiness and light...
This is basically me. I'm conservative Christian who likes jrpgs and japanese media. I follow the commands laid down in the OT as much as possible since not following them is sin (ie: no pork/shellfish, no pagan holidays like Christmas or Easter or Halloween but YHWH' Holy days like Yom Kippur, Sukkot, Shavuot, Rosh Hashanan, Pentecost etc.). I picked up SMTV as my first megaten game due to how much I like the Persona series. However I am having trouble actually enjoying it due to how many foreign deities appear in the game. Similarly seeing SMTIVA has an ending where you fight YHWH (the fighting Him isn't a problem because even Jacob fought Yah in the OT but the fact that they gave Him a sprite (blatant violation for the 2nd commandment) just sours me on the series. I know I'll finish it but I'll never see the true ending since I simply don't think I can do a chaos route. To add on to this the demons and pentagrams themselves don't bother me. Images only have as much power as you give them (it's just an upside down star) and demons/monsters/spirits/yokai whatever term you wish to use are all interchangeable to me. Hebraism/Judaism is literally where all other mythos derive from (seriously everything pagan is just a law that YHWH commanded done in the wrong way, at the wrong time, to the wrong deity) and the Jewish Talmud is where things like succubi and inccubi come from. It's the making allies of the foreign deities and that they have any sort of dominion is what really bothers me. It's the same reason why when I embarked on this path as a Christian I stopped watching the Danmachi series or playing FGO.
@@sackpersoncool I admire you, I also strictly follow the Law path in every SMT to the point of letting myself only summon the Angel classes of Demons (regular hierarchy + Heralds) and fight for God (the true essence, the Great Will, the one in Christianity is considered The Holy Spirit, YHWH is only a manifestation of Him and the fact that he can be fought physically is not in opposition to the Bible, not only Jacob fought Him physically to the point of injuring his own leg but Abrham invited him and two Angels to have lunch inside his tent and YHWH has eaten and had a physical body that could be seen and touched. What can't be seen without facing death, that is His Glory, the manifestation of His power that He was used to move onto)... Anyway, back to SMT (Megaten is an umbrella name including Persona too), I love to follow Law and fight side by side with the Angels to defeat all the Demons that want to bring corruption and chaos, to found the millenary kingdom of God where the few chosen ones can be happily live forever... Whatever manifestation God assumes... Even in Persona 5 there is God and the name He uses is another name given to YHWH in gnosticism (I don't spoil much) and I choose the ending of agreeing with His plan even though it's considered a bad ending, but I think it's obvious that in a world suffering the apocalypse consequences like our own, even in SMT many would consider serving the Demons and living by chaos odeals, a good thing, Law is hated and rejected because a few can undrestand that living by the Word of God is the only possible salvation for a collapsing humanity, SMT shows exactly this that is a reality...
@@stem.2934 Well said at the end there. Even lots of Christians like to think that YHWH's laws can be parsed into moral, civil, and ceremonial laws but they are all His statutes, commands, and right rulings. They let us know what is right and wrong. So all I can think when playing games like these is to pick the lawful side. I can only side with YAH on things. Also I'm might possibly blow your mind with this. What if I told you those two beings with YHWH that visited Abraham were Jesus and the Holy Spirit? In Genesis YHWH says let Us make man in Our image. Why Us? That's because YHWH is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit Deuteronomy 6:4 hear Israel YHWH your Elohim is one. Here things get even cooler. Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega (first and last in the Greek alphabet). In Hebrew the aleph and the tav are the first and last letters. This two letter combination shows up everywhere in the OT in Hebrew but is essentially untranslatable. It represents Jesus. He is in the OT ten times more frequently than the NT. So when he says I am and I was there, he means it!
@@sackpersoncool Christ and the Apostles declared all foods to be clean, also neither Christmas nor Easter are pagan, unless you consider celebrating Christs rise from the Dead pagan btw
As you pointed out, Law really suffers from only really having one head honcho in the form of YHVH and his avatars in 95% of the games. Not only does Chaos have Lucifer who is a more nuanced and variable character who obviously has some respect for humanity's power to defy God, but the Chaos alignment has had other representatives too like the mother goddesses from Strange Journey or just the human Gaea cult and the people surrounding it. Honestly, I wouldn't mind a game where some other big Law demon from outside the Abrahamic faith steps up in the absence of YHVH and tries to push their own interpretation of Law.
@@christopherbravo1813 too bad that not even the mythology they came from themselves, depict them as omnipotent which is probably why they're just like any other demons you can encounter and recruit unlike YHVH
@@Satantron1 no, but they are depicted as being heavyweights in their respective pantheons. Zeus has declared himself to be more powerful than the rest of Olympus put together, and Odin literally fought with his brothers against a giant the size of the universe.
I feel like other people have said this but they always present the Law route's upfront motives as explicitly antagonistic, whereas the other routes are always benevolent but have huge consequences. Like in the Chaos routes, it's usually presented as like "you're offering true freedom to everyone" or "you're freeing the world from evil dictatorships and lack of control" or "you're allowing the world to exist as it wishes according to the natural order without some God imposing rules onto you!". The neutral route is usually presented as like "why should we let other things dictate your fate? Why not make a world free of endless debate between which side is right?" or "both sides are awful, let's nuke both of em so we can do good with the world!" But the Law route is always presented as like "we're using God's order to KILL ALL MISCREANTS and if you oppose god you will face his wrath!" Granted, I'm 35 hours into SMT V, I just got to the 3rd area of Da'at (the winter one), so I don't really know how it ends, but yeah. Honestly, even though this might sound weird at first, I feel like in Persona 5 Royal, Maruki's way of being the "Law representative" is better than the mainline SMT games. Because he's presented as offering you a benevolently intended path that comes with huge consequences. This honestly puts the Law route in line with the others. Because it's Persona you can't not pick chaos because freedom is good or whatever but if he were the law representative in a mainline SMT game, I'd be far more inclined to pick law. Because right now picking Law is knowingly committing genocide intentionally because you want people who disagree with you to die. If it was instead accidentally committing genocide as a byproduct of genuinely wanting as many people as possible to subscribe to what you truly believe is the best path for humanity to walk, that would put it far more in line with Chaos and make it a valid option.
Oh absolutely, Royal's Ideal ending offers something with enough pros and cons that people can actually debate over it. "Kill all infidels" doesn't tempt me nearly as much as "hey you know how Shiho felt so abused and powerless she tried to commit suicide? Why not make reality a brighter, happier, kinder place so she's never trapped in that hopeless position to begin with?" I felt like a bastard since condemning everyone in Tokyo to their own problems (regardless of whether they can actually handle them or not) didn't sit right with me, no matter how many flaws Maruki had in executing his dream. And in SMT's apocalyptic settings, Law desires like wanting safe havens for the weak and downtrodden should at least have *some* better build-up before ending in dire consequences.
@@CelestiaLily Yeah, definitely. I agree with everything you said. Like, I get that you're supposed to immediately see gigantic flaws in both ideologies, that's sort of what makes the choice interesting, and I get that Law is sort of required to have a lot of immediate cons moreso than maybe Chaos is (because if Law seems too good, many people might say "I mean... God is objectively benevolent, right? That's just the mathematical best option."), but Law is usually presented to you not as a "missionary" type "I genuinely believe that following God's order will make life happier for most people and want to see people happy", but instead as a "YOU SPECIFICALLY MUST FOLLOW GOD'S ORDER, OR I MUST SMITE YOU WHERE YOU STAND. AND YOU MUST TELL EVERYONE YOU COME ACROSS THE SAME THING."
The only Law route that I liked is the New Law route in Strange Journey Redux since every single Law route is "Turn humanity into mindless drones and only show devotion to God," while Zelenin is aware that for a world that is truly lawful to actually exist, it's the removal of emotions that causes strife and conflict and bring that ever so desired unified utopia. Yeah the progression of humanity will be slowed down by a bit, but at least no one is driven by negative emotions to do something that will bring horrible consequences.
When her first disciple Ryan would make for a better choice for Sheikinah's law interpretation because unlike Zelenin who could at least use science and logic to debate the necessities of toning down certain aspects of God's song to unite the people. Ryan's ideals about law and order wouldn't be just singing a hymn, it would be marching banners of zealots to help the Angels subjugate demonkind of Sheikinah Hell Jack's crew was the perfect candidates for the visions of Mem Aleph and Sheikinah's goal of controlling humanity since they only had negative traits.
What about DeSu: Overclocked 8th Day Amane (Law)? The Angels believe that there are people who are irredeemable, and must be punished with death. However Abel says that he can make irredeemable people change their ways. The Angels don’t believe Abel at first, but are willing to accept that if he can do so, then they will encourage irredeemable people to change their ways as well and be more patient. Abel, as the protagonist of a JRPG does, works his magic and proves to the Angels he can, more stuff happens, relevant plot stuff happens, final boss, cut to credits, and Abel is doing his work throughout the world making sure normal people can just live normal lives without fear of being murdered or beaten by these “irredeemable” people.
@@theomnigamer9177 yeah DeSu law is easily the best one, even more when Abel ends up being the New judge and the Angels being actually understandable I even agree a with this thing of certain people being irredeemable
That isn't true at all though and is unique to SJ which is a flaw Chaos ALSO suffers from. Law's actual drawback is the sheer amount of people killed to achieve their actual utopia in order to get rid of the demons.
Law Routes usually force you to be subservient to other powers. I love the angels and whatnot over the chaos demons but... well... I ain’t down for that Heaven shit. I’m a strong independent demon summoner who don’t need no god. Also, a lot of the Law guys are really way too anal about their shit.
I honestly like Jonathan as a law route. He never seemed over the edge, just a guy who genuinely believed that God’s Will was for the best considered how Tokyo turned out. Then there’s Merkabah trying to kill Isabeau for reading manga…
Jonathan also was like "wait WTF!" When the angels announced their genocide plan but he agreed because he just thought that it was the only way (considering what you said)
@@firstnamelastname7244 the main reason I picked Law in SMT IV was because I thought it was the only guarantee of humanity's survival. that, and I like Johnathan.
the problem with Law paths is that Atlus is biased against it as they are almost always portrayed as the Bad Endings. The only game I feel that did Law justice is the very first Shin Megami Tensei, and then Devil Survivor more than a decade later. Strange Journey Redux gave us a satisfying Law ending but it took a remake to do that.
I would like to see a Law scenario where the angels who serve closer to humans (angels, the archangels, principalities) are more sympathetic towards humans and wish to preserve the positive aspects of humans vs the higher angels (Seraphim, Cherubs, Thrones) who seek to restore order at any cost, even if it makes humanity unrecognizable. And uh considering Nocturne’s influence on V it could very well be this YHVH is entirely different from the previous versions of him we’ve come across. Like Law is really going out of their way to save what’s left of humanity in V, idk
You kinda had that in Survivor with Remiel vs the normal angels. Though the thing is Law useally has their angels try to protect humanity and contain the demons till the final hour were they're usually forced to do something drastic to get rid of the demons. (Survivor being the only one where they succeed in containing the demons in time, which is why the more bibically accurate YHVH approves of all endings except the Chaos one or the doom the world trying to break out containment ending)
The fake Tokyo was made by the last creator, and there was a sympathy for humans. In the game the angels were saving them. Abidel(or whatever) wanting to kill you made sense.
I think the main problem with law is that the creators deliberately go against Judeo-Christian beliefs, which are only presented as oppressive regime-like cults, forgetting that angels and God are supposed to be *the forces of Good* and the protectors of humanity. While in SMT chaos has sometimes a point, Law is mostly "hah, lol, you is North Korea now, but demons is no more". This could be fixed by showing the law guys to at least be morally righteous and kind, or at least human, something they kind of did with Abdiel, which is an improvement from the usual "God is Great" law-drone.
@@tastethecock5203 Funnily enough every SMT series' neutral endings eventually circles back to have The Great Will as actual True God of SMTverse, with Stephen are just rebrand of Enoch's ascension into Metatron in apocryphal Book of Enoch (but he ascends into Great Will above Great Will's avatars from Kagutsuchi to Demiurge and obviously YHVH and his both law and chaos dramas), therefore the more weirder they are, they eventually follow the considered heretical Gnostic Schools and Sects of Christianity
This is an interesting discussion! I may be in the minority, but I’ve always ended up in law in previous games. I usually do it intentionally, just ‘cause I love the designs of the nine types of angels. There’s so much meaning placed in each look (not SMTIV) vs just the usual aggressively grotesque chaos characters. (Again super subjective opinion, I love Lucifer’s design too) I end up respecting the law guys more also. Zelenin is often cold, but she looks the type that won’t let you down. Or Jonathan seemed like the more reliable guy, when things go south. I get it though, law tends to be quite pushy and full of themselves. It’s not as inclusive, making you feel less than how chaos does. But the thought of being God’s right hand sounds enticing often. Around midway through SMTV now and this may be the first time I’m not quite sure where I’m ending up in haha!
I think it comes naturally that ppl like chaos-neutral more than law. Characters like jonathan and zelenin genuinely hate demons meanwhile we spend 100% of our time playing these games with demons as allies lol. To me both are morally just as bad, but chaos usually shows its true color at the end. Like halfway through the route, you’d be fighting in the name of “freedom” and realises at the end that the consequences are just as evil. On the other hand, law doesn’t shy away from admitting they hate the “filth” and would kill in the name of order and god. Like they’re arent coating it at all. I’m neutral btw hehe
I prefer that law is honest.qIn some chaos route you are being scammed by the demon, dooming your own race to an unwinnable battle, to a war only you and a few others have a chance to even win.Depending on the game, i don't mind, but i hate if it's you being taken advantage of
The problem with Law is due fan mistranslations, (for the original two games, which resulted in the misconception that Thor was there in SMT just to nuke Japan, instead the nuke was actually a last resort in trying to contain the demon outbreak) being far more complex than Neutral or Chaos (for instance YHVH actually isn't God, hes a avatar, God is the Great Will/Axiom) and several misconceptions (for instance Merkaba wanting Isabeu dead because she read manga, when instead he was lamenting the fact that because of those experiences she stood in their way, forcing him and Flynn to kill her, when he rather she lived in the Utopia they were to create) and yes the attitude of the reps, especially the angels, Law gets a unfair bad rap, despite being the best alignment in lore and endings. (though granted they do come at high cost of lives if Law isn't able to stop the demons from spreading) That all being said YHVH is indeed a problem as despite the claim that he represents God from the Old Testament, that is only really true for one game, (Devil Survivor 1) most of the time he lacks that nuance and is just Demiurge with a different name. (Ironically the one time he actually appears as Demiurge is one of most unambiguous benevolent appearances)
@@christopherbravo1813 Yeah and unfortunately SMT1's or SMT2's re-release with a proper translation for English regions was on the IOS/Android instead of a proper console.
@@TheSwordsman100 so in the original Japanese version, which no one has access to, Merkabah *didn't* condemn Isabeau for reading manga, but instead lamented that her spirit had been corrupted?
That bit about Law being unappealing cause you’re not some powerful hero, you’re a servant of a godlike figure, got me thinking, what if the Law route was set up like a cult with the focus on the protagonist instead of God(is this just Devil Survivor I haven’t played Devil Survivor). It’ll have all the same fervent loyalty to a godlike figure, but everyone thinks you are that godlike figure. You’ll be walking around and save some survivors from attacking demons and depending on your alignment and how you treat them they might begin to worship you as a saviour. Throw in a second in command like Mastema to guide you once you start to build up a following, and depending on how all out you go the second in command will either try to usurp you or stay in their lane out of fear of retribution. Bonus, the Law friend could end up leading this cult if you pick a different route. Idk I just wanted to see if I could throw together a Law route that doesn’t center around God without stepping into Chaos’s “people follow you because you’re strong, and listen to you because you’ll just kill them if they don’t”
This, YWVH should treat you like a true acting leader in the Law Route, he may acknowledge your role in rounding up the flock for salvation while revealing the wolves among sheep and laying down the hammer on them and letting you run the show when you win
@@MrAsaqe God basically does that in Devil Survivor. the protagonist is declared God's "Messiah" and is essentially tasked with guiding humanity on God's behalf.
The issue with law is that it's tied to basically being gods bitch boys. Chaos is generally the same, but to whoever has power, or lucifer himself. Neutral is my preference because it generally has themes of humans forging their own path instead of just being told how to live, and saying fuck you to the very concept of relying and falling back on gods and other supernatural beings.
@@sanjaychhetri5399 I'd prefer if Neutral either A: changed it's name and was open and honest about it's primary goal of killing both sides or B: instead of killing the other alignments, convincing them to leave humans alone/give us a chance to decide for ourselves, though this convincing would obviously occur via boss fights I also think Neutral shouldn't be the underdog. it should be an established alignment with it's own leader, commanders, and followers, just like Law and Chaos.
Honestly, I kinda like Law mainly because of the archangel designs. I always thought those characters looked cool, regardless of what game they were used in.
I actually went law in Devil Survivor 1. I related to Amane a lot and although God kind of was full of shit in that game, I think it was an okay choice.
There are two factors that push me into law more frequently than not (ex., I got Law my first playthrough on Strange Journey and SMT IV). First, I try to go in as blind as possible, so Neutral is often difficult to get without a guide (or at least preplanning). Second, I usually find the Law characters more likeable than the Chaos characters. Like, maybe the Law guy is kind of a wuss, or overly controlling, but their heart is usually in the right place. Whereas the Chaos characters are usually irredeemable jerks. SMT V is an exception - I can't stand Dazai.
Zelenin is cool, but I really liked the dynamic of Jimenez and Bugaboo and so I followed them around over zelenin. Second run Im 100% hangin out with Zelenin. Strange Journey and Devil Survivor 1 are the two games I actually felt torn between the different routes.
@@aaronsound at least unlike 4 they don't try to shove the 3 characters you don't like down your throat through lots of cutscenes. Im sorry all you walter, jonathan, and isabeau fans, but their alignments were painfully obvious and aside from their nice human form designs, they didn't do much for me. I hated having to take them with me all over the place and listen to them bickering about tradition vs revolution while neutral just kind of existed in the background being pretty much worthless.
It´s the same for me, I normally go for Neutral or Chaos first. The only few times I went for Law, was in SMT 2, I loved that one for how fucked it is, SMT IV an strange Journey redux.
Atlus looking at Dazai and Abdiel midway through development: Oh shit, we made Law the most reasonable alignment and the only ones with a point. We can't have Law look like the best option! Quick, make Dazai drop his hat and turn evil out of nowhere! And yet, despite (seemingly) intentionally fucking up his character arc, CHADzai is still the best option.
Devil survivor has the best law. The whole proving yourself to a Japanese God so you shown your worth as Messiah, trying to redeem Naoya and go around trying to make people repent for their sins is great.
I usually hate law but the only time I’d ever get behind it is if it was Infernal Akira’s law he just wants equality in a survival of the fit world but without the whole brain washed Church schtick
It’s probably cause Atlus generally puts the least amount of effort into law or will go out of there way to make Law proponents ridiculously evil of annoying
yeah I have to agree with you, typically in video games with such a system in place I try to play the "good guy," avoiding the "evil" choices and only doing the "good" ones, unless I HAVE to do an "evil" option, but if being "good" means being the lackey of some jerk who claims to have the best intentions in mind but really doesn't, then I'll probably be the "bad guy" in that game, hence why unless Law makes a very good point and is actually the good side, and not just overbearing control freaks, I'll probably go neutral/chaos too
I think something that Chaos dose well that Law usually struggles with is what im going to call the "Great Betrayal" Chaos is very good about saying "Oh yeah man we are pro freedom and anti tyrants like God and his stuck up friends and in favor of XY and Z good stuff" but then usually right after the alignment lock turns out "Im pro freedom" means "im in favor of eating babies" but the conversation to get you to this point has been fairly reasonable. Law has stuff they do well too, like peace love and unity. Much like freedom, its all stuff JRPG fans like and expect but come off as... anti fun when what they excel at and should focus on is being a source of relief in this savage world. BUT they reveal their hand WAYYYYY too fast and you know you are going to be a brainwashed goon for god. and after the big reveal where both sides show what they are really about, SMT kinda inherently rebellious so it feels "fun" to do evil with the devil and cool to "show god what he has had comeing" but after you have become an armed cop for god.... well it dosnt feel like you are a cool righteous defender of the weak and champion of good and the "cool" factor helps you overlook those sinners were friends and family you just feel like.... sooner or later god is going to call you a sinner and get rid of you too OR brainwash you. and thats no good. Law stuff works better when the angels try to hide the true nature of what god is and I wish they did even more trying to give you a little bit of normalicy befor all this wild SMT stuff happend and less "Oh man its gonna be so cool with god dose a genocide!" and trying to give you a fantasy to fufill that can be fun after you lock in working with god, like being almost a herculese like figure that delivers peace and justice wherever you go or having areas that almost make you think the law stuff is "normal" BOY did that work in Devil Survivor and im sure it took a ton of us for a loop.
so i always side with law, mainly because i believe in God and what his son taught us, but a more accurate depiction of God would be nice, because there's no way that the same God that tell us to love the others as yourself would ask thor to fucking nuke tokyo
SMT Yahwe is modeled after the Old Testament version of Yahwe, where he does plenty of things like that (the Great Flood, obliterating Sodomah and Gomorrah, the egyptian plagues, etc.)
@@2deep5u God in the old testament was more of a figure to impose fear and stuff, that's a reason why we don't take stuff from the OT as serious as the NT
@@2deep5u Yeah, but OT God only smites people when they’re really _really_ far gone, and even then he warns them that what they’re doing is bad and call for them to repent before they get punished. And even _then_ he waits for a long time before delivering punishment, sometimes even for several generations. SMT God goes straight to genocide for the littlest of thing and without any option to repent. OT God caused the Great Flood because Mankind had fallen so far into sin, there was _nothing_ to salvage. And he gave his warning like, centuries before he delivered. He also kept a few survivors to allow Mankind to rebuilt itself. Said rebuilt Mankind hasn’t been brainwashed . SMT God would do the Great Flood with no warning whatsoever and kill everyone because one person out of billions forgot to apologize after burping in public. Maybe he’ll keep a few survivors if he’s on a good mood that day, but only after brainwashing them to the point of being flesh automatons instead of people. So I’d say there’s a pretty big difference between God in the OT and how ‘God’ is represented in SMT.
Considering God is portrayed radically different than what He usually is, I don't see why that means Law should be followed by default regardless of your beliefs.
I’m my case I always end up getting the law endings on my first playthroughs (except DeSu where I chose Gin, but I did enjoy Amane’s ending a lot). I just tend to prefer the choices that seem to be more “righteous” or “correct”, even when the law endings aren’t necessarily the “good guy” endings per se. To get the chaos endings you generally need to act like more of an ass to others, and I just don’t do that much in the games.
That is where Devil Survivor: Overclocked shines my friend. Naoya’s good 8th Day is probably my favourite Chaos route. Naoya’s 8th Day you can choose to be an ass and kill the demon tamers who are trying to kill you, or convince them that you aren’t the enemy and the Angels are only extending the lockdown because they want the Overlord dead. If you choose to be a good Overlord, then the Angels grow impatient and see the humans in the lockdown as enemies as well, and the Overlord swoops in to save them and kill the Angels. The day continues until the entire lockdown doesn't trust a word of what the Angels say. So Metatron attempts to defeat Overlord and the gang, but is a sore loser and tries to destroy the human world by summoning the four Archangels. The Overlord stops this by awakening his power as King of Bel and summons Beldr and Belial without the use of a Comp. The Lockdown, and by extension Tokyo, is grateful and the lockdown is lifted eventually while the Overlord wages battles against the Angels with Naoya’s assistance.
@@theomnigamer9177 yeah I also enjoyed the good chaos route quite a bit because you get to be the cool ass demon lord without being an asshole. Guess I forgot to mention that I played DeSu Overclocked instead of the original one.
I actually think V is one of the ones where Law makes more sense to me. Now I haven't actually got to the ending (in the 3rd area, pretty sure I'm close to the end) but Law side seems to only do good in here, where chaos is just plainly evil and destructive for no real reason
It's funny cause I thought the same as well! Likely since when you look at the SMT games prior (sans SJ) SMT1 was pro Neutral, 2 was pro law, 3 was pro Chaos, 4 seemed to go Pro Neutral heavily, especially since 4A only true endings were both Neutral! And V seems to go in the opposite direction of it's inspiration 3! Where instead of Destroying everything! You instead no matter the choice are pro law no matter what! Even the "chaos" choice feels "Law-ish!" and the only choice that feels Chaos is "standard Neutral!" SPOILERS BELOW FOR FIVE HIDDEN ENDING, YOU'VE BEEN WARNED The "SPOILERS" Hidden Neutral ending is pretty much the complete opposite of 3's True Demon Chaos Ending where instead of destroying, you instead restore everything like the Neutral Human ending and assure that Humanity is never plagued again. But in exchanged your cut off from the world forever, and well Dagda's logic for his route comes into mind where he believed YHVH only became a dick because he didn't have an equal partner by his side! I don't know if Tao in the form she's in is still with the Nanobino in that ending since it's the only way she comes back since she's not for your "pro Destroy the Throne" ways, but changes her mind since your not going to destroy it in this ending! But who's to say you don't have an effect on the world and might turn into the YHVH! While I doubt it cause even in the pure Law ending your stated to be alot nicer then YHVH ever was and it's not as bad! Who's to say in the future that might change! Meh ignore it. Since the Nanobino isn't affected by "faith" like YHVH and the other Demons/Gods/Goddess are, I don't think they're at risk of being compromised like YHVH was! But yeah, this game, Law is pretty much less if not completely not Dickish! The angels are abit more protective and nicer! Any aggression from them is more justified then "you no like God, YOU MUST DIE!" Only like ONE Angel is pro "YHVH was RIGHT!" with the whole "take away free will" thing and feels like she's that outdated grandma that can't fantom her ways aren't workable anymore! (Even hypocritical, but then she only breaks the same law she was adamant about with the Nanobino when she becomes one with Dazai AFTER becoming Fallen!) I'm guessing this is what happens when "The four dickheads....well Three, Gabriel tends to be a good girl, if only her comrades are being massive dicks! Otherwise she's just as genocide happy as the rest! P5 was the first time I saw her actually being actively a bitch! While with 4, I can't say because the Angels start talking disckish once they combine into the Chariot!
@@Mayhzon Hence SMTV's ending for as open-ended it is, provide different route with freeing Lucifer in Mandala and have Nahubino's recreates his universe in the Throne, but then again this isn't Apocalypse Edition rerelease of SMTV
@@ohamatchhams Man that ending in Apocalypse was fucking lit. THAT is how a game is supposed to end. You whoop everyone into submission and when you're done, you don't get done in by some weird plot contrivance. You get the throne, the few remaining souls are your loyalist buddies and now you get to have the godlike powers. Most satisfying ending ever.
you know what I think would be amazing? if there was a Law route where instead of fighting to kill God, you try to *convince* God to be less harsh towards humanity.
The thing with SMT endings is that they are so focused on giving you the information of each allignment's philosophy, that they barely spend the same effort trying to give you the sight of how would you not only live, but enjoy your new life in the choice you make. Neutral speaks for itself, as no matter if you challenge both routes or none, it goes straight to human choices from now on, if to fight, or to retire. Chaos sets you in a war where only the strongest will prevail, and considering that you're a demon summoner who've won against the final boss, no matter what, you will have a good chance of having a place in that world regardless. Either as a slave of who knows, or Demi Fiend. Like a friendship gamble. But Law...? It barely gives you the chance of being more than a puppet. You know all angels are nothing more than puppets for *record scratch*. Instead of at least hinting you an utopia with some characters, it usually goes straight to dystopia. Sometimes, the brainwash is relatively obvios. If not, it's still implied, and other routes usually exists to be "the better choice". And then again, if *record scratch* isn't present, it's a miracle to have a Strange Journey/Devil Survivor kind of ending (in other words, the main franchise is stuck in law perception). Then again, it is a trial and error of philosophy. I mean, it is more obvious that "law" is the bad ending after you knew about P5 because, well, it is. However, at least there can be more to develop a partnership with someone at law, not just some dude who out of nowhere loses its entire personality for God's sake. At least in Chaos, Neutral, and the miracle exceptions, the characters are themselves before, during and after the law ending.
I had so much hope for Dazai. All of it was dashed by the end. He starts off as a goofy, YT personality and you wonder "is this the Law character?" But then it hits you. Of course he would be. Look at all the most successful pastors and they tend to be happy chiasmic people, comfortable in front of a crowd. I wanted him to become a inviting televangelist reformer. Like a- "new testament" to god's will or something like that. His arc looked like it was going this direction. But no. Instead we got last-minute teleporting Green Goblin.
I don't like either route. Humanity deserves an opportunity to screw things up for themselves, free from the influence of monsters driving their own agendas. They offer humans power and suffering, preying on the weak and knowing humans can't resist. None of them ultimately have the answer. Humanity deserves the opportunity to make those mistakes for themselves.
@@christopherbravo1813 That's fine. Humanity is allowed to fail. Realistically, we're probably going to expend all of the resources of Earth before we find another source and go extinct. That happens. The dinosaurs didn't evolve fast enough to realize they were doomed before they got wiped out. Maybe whoever comes next will do better. For now though, I think we'd be better off trying and failing than selling our souls to demons and playing a part in their petty games in the hope that they will save us. I'd rather die of starvation in the wild than end up as a pet.
Funny, when you think about it. It feels like that was the Theme of Strange Journey! The point was "not to listen to Law OR Chaos! Since both did not have Humanities best interest at heart! They spend the entire game hypocritically dogging on humanity while downplaying their own fucked up evil actions (and blaming them on humanity as the ULTIMATE SCAPEGOAT). Redux goes even further to show that the Original Law and Chaos endings pretty much screwed humanity over in the end and their representatives had to get reality knocked into their heads that they were idiots for "fully listening to the heads of their representative Alignments without giving it much thought and blindly believing it! Ending up far better because they had to be knocked out of their extremists! (Zelenin realizing her mind control wasn't as great as she thought it was a plan for world peace, and Jimenez having to be reminded that for all his "Strong Live, Weak Suck" mind set! He'd have been dead if not for feeling mercy for the weak in his relationship with Bugaboo!) Hell even Neutral got a nasty wake up call by showing "getting rid of the knowledge of the Black Hole and how to deal with it was a BAD IDEA as Neutral was always the "Lets put it on hold answering the question and come back to it later".....which as shown, resulted in them having to answer it and being unable to answer. Getting destroyed in the process! (Resulting in the only solution being Arthur and the Protagonist forever solving the problem when it turns up to leave humanity to fail and die off on it's own! People say it sucks, but as you put it, I agree! If Humanity is to go extinct! Then let it be because of OUR actions! Not a bunch of raging hypocritical "non-humans" doing it and trying to "claim the moral high ground when they know their full of shit!)
@@paulman34340 dude, you're twisting my words. also, if Law and Chaos aren't to be listened to, then what's the point of putting them in the game at all?
@@christopherbravo1813 If it sounded like I twisted your words, that was not my intent! I was only adding, nothing more! Specifically the Tvtropes page for Strange Journey kind of said the same thing I just put down and I agreed with it when I remember the Demons/deities constantly saying Mankind sucks LULZ were also massively hypocritical! But yeah I agree with 101 in that it's better humanity determines it's own fate, path and end! No outside interference from beings that do a very bad job at "pretending they care" when you pay attention to their words and meaning! (They just want you to make it easier to kill all humans by convincing you that it's for the best for everyone! Seriously they're selfish arseholes prettying to be selfless! No different then people who did you no good as you made something of yourself on your own, then tell you to give up everything to them cause "it's the right thing to do" barely masking their envy at your success and accomplishments)
My only Law play through was my first play through for the original Strange Journey, I remember feeling both a sense of dread and in awe at the Law ending for that game
I wish at least one Law-aligned ruler would be more benevolent. Why must every god who sides with Law always force subservience on their subjects? Why not make a god that believes in Law, but that path leads more towards the status quo rather than servitude? Like, “Yes, the world is messed up, but not all are suffering, so why change it?” I’m sure a real writer could come up with better, but I’m just upset that the virtue of Law is always “I’m right, you’re wrong, now shut up and sit down.”
As a Christian(Catholic) I would like to joined law and go desu vult on the forces of chaos, but law goes too massacre happy and almost always go to a religious version of the USSR or modern Iran . Quite the paradox for me
I love Law. He's got a great design, his introduction in Sabaody is mysterious, his devil fruit is... wait... law Routes? Oh nm Edit: actually, I think i got law on my first Devil Survivor 1 playthougg
Honestly I have always gone mostly with Neutral and occasionally with Chaos, but the only times I was ever tempted by a Law (although I ended up rejecting it in the end) was in Devil Survivor (cuz for once we had an angel, Remiel, who didn't sound like an asshole but actually seemed to care for mankind, and Amane was really cool, and Naoya was kind of a manipulative dick), and, in a way, Persona 5 Royale, if you consider Maruki's dream world to be a representative of Law in opposition to the Phantom Thieves ideals of freedom and rebellion (ie: Chaos). He's definitely the gentlest possible version of a reality controlling god (certainly better than Yaldabaoth, who is the closest thing Persona has to YHVH).
Maruki was Neutral, it was a very humancentric route where he and Sumire essentially sacrifice their own cognition to end all suffering except for those who can't compromise or too far gone
@@MrAsaqe I think a true human centric route would be one that let humans continue their lives without supernatural interference. Maruki has a textbook messiah complex and essentially made himself the god of a world he will continuously control and reshape forever... even if that world will be a very happy place, it's still essentially a world being controlled by a single entity who rules from above. To me that sounds like Law.
@@dsilva369 Yaldaboth was law. In neutral, the usual fate of the heroes was to give up something to either undo the damage of the world or leave it to an uncertain fate for humanity. That is pretty Neutral to me because Maruki "ceases" to be
@@MrAsaqe just like you can have multiple neutral paths in Devil Survivor or arguably multiple chaos paths in Nocturne, I think you can have more than 1 law representative in Persona 5 Royale. I guess you can argue the phantom thieves ending is neutral, but it doesn't really change my point about maruki being law
I wouldn't say rebellion is really Chaos-aligned, at least when it comes to the Shin Megami Tensei cosmology. If anything, I'd say Neutral is more about rebellion since it usually rejects the cosmic status quo. Chaos is more "do what you will, but only if you can, otherwise fuck you".
I actually really liked New Law ending in Deep Strange Journey. It's a peaceful outcome, it's ideologically beautiful, humanity isn't dependent on God, and yet you can clearly see the drawbacks and risks of it. My headcanon is thay Mastema saw that in DSJ and as a result chills out in IV.
Zelenin is the best Law pick personally, since whilst I see alot of people in the comments talking about her being on the field, so on, etc. It's that Zelenin doesn't want to use demons and wants to help humanity in-general, that was their mission to be at Schwarzwelt. However, she doesn't like using the Demon Summoning Program, which with her conviction to save humanity to risk her life, though also being confident in her convictions with the suspicious program. Not to mention with her choosing to settle conflicts with pacifism and change them for the better with Jack's crew and the new ending they gave her with Strange Journey Redux, I can't say but to admire her, because her simple desire is to make the world a better place.
Speaking as somebody who always goes Law, I sincerely feel as though Atlus completely undercuts or misrepresents what Law is supposed to be _about._ Going from SMT 1, Law clearly represented an amalgamation of “the West” to Japanese viewers - ideas foreign and feeling as though rooted in socialism and Christianity, to the point there was worries in the 80s of that taking over. Compare to Chaos, which is a lot more associated with fascism (hell, SMT 1’s early Chaos rep was one) and freedom from accountability, and yet it feels like Atlus completely downplays Lucifer’s blatant hypocrisies in order to make Law sound as unappealing as possible. So why is that? For one thing, I think it comes from the somewhat-sympathetic motive that if much of Law’s ideology was truly tipped of its hand, it’d reveal how a lot of what it offers… isn’t a bad thing. We see this in SJR’s New Law Ending, DeSu1 & 2, and Maruki’s goals in P5R, but Law worlds are all about eliminating unnecessary suffering found through cruelty of the world, and trying to make the best possible world for everyone. The Mikado the angels build in IV pretty explicitly have a horizontal power structure, but more importantly Law doesn’t disregard its own sins; they regularly fight YHVH when it’s clear he gets in the way of their objectives (like in SJR and II), and it’s also shown in IV where Merkabah and Flynn willingly sacrifice themselves for the sin of opening the Yamato Perpetual Reactor to destroy Tokyo. In essence, much of Law’s motives is actually *_empathetic_* by nature, but is very heavily willing to go to extremes to achieve that world. The second motive and one that I find far _less_ sympathetic is because Atlus presents its options in a heavily biased way. Count the amount of times Neutral is blatantly portrayed as the best option with no “downsides” other than tipping their hand that brainwashing people to accept a Neutral world is perfectly _fine,_ as long as you’re not “brainwashing” them to reject it, free will or not. And even then, notice how much Atlus portrays Lucifer as cunning or charismatic as YHVH as a big bully, and how Lucifer’s the one we’re supposed to sympathize with because of how much “freedom good” is what the game presents it as. As somebody who IRL went to college and studied ethics and social theory, I realized with age just how slanted Law is portrayed, and to this day we see that with the Megami and Vile race being outright Light-Neutral and Dark-Chaos. Given they can and have shown a sympathetic viewpoint, I’m not really excusing of this because it’s clear they only do it due to blatant storybranch favoritism.
You're completely insane if you're point at 4's Law route as empathic. SMT IV Law, where Merkabah wants to murder Isabeau for reading mange? SMT IV Law, which GENOCIDES ALL OF TOKYO? For the crime of not rolling over and dying when God told them to? So that Mikado can live in blissful ignorance forever, a la the Garden of Eden? That fucking nightmare hellscape? That's EMPATHIC to you? YHVH is a big bully. The entire concept of pure Law, of utter control and subjugation, requires it. He isn't Lawful Good, he's Lawful Evil.
@@hedgeyes6411 interestingly enough, in the original version Merkabah doesn't condemn Isabeau for reading "manga". he laments that she has become corrupted and has sided against them, with no mention of her manga. and even in the English version, he shows at least some degree of pity for her after she dies. not only that, "genociding all of Tokyo"-and let's be real here, Tokyo is NOT worth saving in this game-was only ever a last resort to keep the demons from spreading into Mikado. the fact that you fail to grasp this man's point proves that Atlus has gotten you hook, line, and sinker. this is why we need a more sympathetic Law alignment.
As you said in the video, Law often comes off as a tyrannical dictatorship, and that is very unappealing. Having a more forgiving and compassionate path makes it a more appealing option to me. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I actually liked the True Law ending in Strange Journey Redux. Zelenin goes against her superiors and her beliefs for the sake of a better future for humanity. Same deal with Law in SMT2. While you do commit genocide, it isn't out of hatred but to "wipe the slate clean" and give the people in Eden a new start. And I really like that Satan agrees with this, which is why he faces God, since he knows that YHVH will enslave the people in Eden.
I almost laughed out loud in public when you said one of your favorite law reps was satan. But yeah, Atlus almost seems to have it out for law, given how most of their endings go. Another reason why we like devil survivor, it goes around most of the problems in it's routes(all of them actually, one of the few smt games where you feel like you really won with it's endings)
Yeah, all of SMT pretty much portrays God the same way a 2012 youtube atheist would. It's a misunderstanding of the "OT God" (which there isn't a different God between OT and NT), but it makes sense that Japan would portray Him that way.
You'd think with the amount of alignments in the SMT series, that a future SMT would have introduced the concept of a Judgment alignment where a character becomes an authority of order and uses it to ensure that everyone is ruled on the basis of order by judgment, and redemption by a soft but firm hand with the belief that redemption is given to those who want to change their ways and that judgment is dealt in a punishment fits the crime by the law breakers peers to maintain order while also as an executioner to those that wish to make humanity fight each other, turned mindless, or a world only for humans that is doomed to have history repeat itself instead of having humanity and redeemed demons and angels find peace through maintained order.
Isn't that just a Law alignment variant, especially by making yourself such a figure who holds the world and its being in judgement, just significantly nicer than the traditional SMT Law alignment? Like the video creator Fither said would be the type of law route that he might actually go for - stop chaos AND reform law.
Honestly, I will never pick a law route. Not just because YHVH is a prick, but because the angels are also pricks. They want to shepard humanity to do their bidding, which I will never agree with
The angels in 5 are not show to be prick though, they want a Top God and that Free Will continues to the world, the existence with demons and humans being separated, I thought that was pretty interesting, sadly you can't side with them
They write law wrong for the kind of game smt is, you spend the entire game becoming all-powerful and then you are just going to submit to a "higher being"?
I like the idea of the angels basically forming a union when they're like "ok god my dude you're going too far let's get some reform in this biz". coming 2023, Shin Megami Tensei: Worker's Strike.
Whenever I think of good law characters I think of Amane and Johnathan. You already mentioned what's good about Amane but Johnathan is good cause of the way the angels sort of corrupt his desire for peace. He starts the game as a good guy that just wants to follow the rules cause he believes order brings peace but at the end the angels take advantage of that desire for peace and turn him into a genocidal maniac
I am a total Law follower in any SMT game, to the point I only play and summon Angel-type Demons like Divine or Herald races... I actually study esotheric a spiritual stuff even in real life and I think that Law is the only way to go that would lead to an everlasting peace and prosperity although for the few people evolved enough to be worthy of it... Chaos or even Neutral lead to war, conflict and self-annhilation of humanity like the premise-world of every SMT or even our situation in the real world, because SMT is basically our world... Humanity can only survive with an order and an harmony, even sacrificing a bit of freedom to the collective benefit... Of course YHWH is a tyrant but he is only an old manifestation of the Great Will and he's good for a primitive humanity in terms of ethics, evolution is the aim of the Great Will and the Great Will is the real God, YHWH or Baal in SMT III Law/Yosuga are only manifestations, avatars of God... And Satan is an agent of the real God, YHWH is more like the Demiurge....
I think that the Law story lines would benefit from going further down the Gnostic route that the series was mainly based on for the Abrahamic side. Since Gnostic beliefs have yahweh as the name of a flawed god of the material world, you could go above his head to the “true gods”. Law route gets a new potential leader, without having to be tied to yahweh. *Spoilers for SMT V below* I think V had the potential for the “best” law ending of the series, with the angels in general taking a milder approach to humans. Unfortunately, you don’t get to join the other angels. You want this game’s Law ending? You get saddled with the crazed knight templar angel, no other options. I know that adding another faction would mean more work for the devs, but I was hoping we could join the archangels this time. But nope, looks like “join the archangels” is going in the same category as “join the divine powers” in IV Apocalypse.
Yeah, V is probably the first time I'd actually *want* to side with the Law faction, but no, we can only side with the last angel that follows the extreme Law alignment.
This is already the case tho. The Law reps have disobeyed YHVH a LOT. SMT II: Zayin kills YHVH after firing the Meggido Ark after considering that YHVH's role is over and that deserves to be punished too to leave the people of Eden alone. SMT IV: In the original game, Merkabah dying with you is meant to shown that the angels wouldn't be there all time. In IVA, this goes further and ends with Jonathan realizing the truth and fusing with Walter to become Satan and judge their creator. SMT SJ: YHVH is outright dead by the time of the story. Shekinah serves the narrative role then, but then Redux Law Ending has Zelenin defying her as well. This is why Abdiel is so jarring, she is a step back from other Law reps.
I definitely feel the same when you said that often times what route you go for is really influenced by who the representative for the route is. I really feel like the Neutral and Chaos routes often get more likable characters than Law. Law being so closely tied to God I think is a big weakness, as it has resulted in a pretty limited variety of characters (I mean, rarely are any two Chaos routes the same) and the resulting holier than thou attitude tends to turn people off. That being said, I actually really like the law route in SMT5 this time around, and while it wasn't the first route I went for (I liked what the neutral route was selling more), the character arcs of both its representatives I found to be quite compelling, and the internal philosophical conflict that they had going into the third act was really vibing with me. That being said, the routes in SMT5 felt kinda "Oops, all Chaos!"
Thing is chaos characters always say the good parts first like freedom and independence and then hit you with the survival of the strongest 24/7 war but law usually opens with "free will was a mistake right?"
SMT4 Mastema has what I want out of law. He holds certain principles and those are what he follows. They are principles that form a worldview that wants everyone to follow these same rules, but the appeal is supposed to be that he honestly believes what he is doing is right, not that some external force is confirming that he is right. I think Amane is much the same. She isn't directly in league with the angels that caused the lockdown. SHe does not speak to or for god. She just has her own beliefs.
For me Law most time is too extreme, while chaos in some game not to bad, like in SMT 5 I kind of go-to chaos While most game I most time I go to nature
What you didn't mention is that , in most games in order to get law you have to pick the " nice " dialogue options, but in the law endings of every game ( except devil survivor and strange journey ) your " nice " character ends up committing full out genocide against the same people you were nice to
