I definitely agree! I love having a silent protagonist because it feels like I’m the character myself and it puts me in the role of the protagonist. I mean don’t get me wrong, they’re are so many amazing games where the protagonist talks of course but there is just something special about playing a game with a great story where the protagonist doesn’t speak.
About to see this video, let's remember that a Silent Protagonist ISN'T an Emotionless Protagonist that's what i dislike of Dragon Quest 11. Luminary see his village in ruins, his whole family and friends apparently died(or at least this is what he knows) but he doesn't cry...he doesn't frown or anything...we have that constant neutral facial-expression that says nothing about his emotions. Link(from Legend of Zelda) occasionally screams or cries...he makes...noises. The MC from Code Vein, has one single line(in the best ending) and has a sad tone of voice...but it's more than what i can say for Luminary. And even without dialogues, that MC shows several emotions, like in the flashback-dungeon in the cutscenes against the Queen.
I think in DQ 11 the time he did show sadness was when he was fished out of the water after he got transformed into a fish. He actually was really sad and was crying for a little bit. I just hated the fact that he couldn’t talk when he sees that evil tockle and doesn’t tell ANYBODY about it (because he doesn’t speak) and that genuinely was annoying.
@@IsraelLlerena Luminary can speak in a way through lines like "Luminary explains the situation to Erik" but it happens only when it's "convenient", Luminary has no reasons for not speaking, or warning the team(in ACT3, after the time travel) about Jasper (at Alboria)
@@IsraelLlerena and let's forget, that one of the issues that Sackchief exposes in this video as a positive thing about silent protagonists, is also listed in his other video (5 dumb things about dragon quest XI)
I have mixed feelings about silent protagonists. Mainly that most games are terrible about having a silent protagonist emote. You’ll have very sad moments but the silent protagonist looks like they’re bored, not sad as the situation would require and without dialogue they can’t express they’re sad, so that also breaks immersion too. So in those cases, I’d prefer a speaking protagonist instead unless the developers can do a better job at having the silent protagonist still express emotion. It would also be great if a game actually made a silent protagonist canonically mute to help explain why they don’t speak but everyone else around them does. That would also give a silent protagonist a bit more depth.
I don't mind silent protagonist but I do find it wierd how the entire point of them is to represent the player but the game sometimes forces u to act in a specific way. It kinda defeats the entire point of a silent protagonist.
Better said than the vid. I couldn't stand the false but thou must trope with dragon quest games. Let alone an interesting talking protagonist helps a good story, and a silent one speeds up one that is very simplistic. Text heavy boring stuff is the worst.
I listened to Yuji Hori explain why he stood firm on his stance for silent protagonist and although I completely support it if it made sense, his philosophy for it no longer makes sense in this day and age. "That's not how I would sound or say" as he would always say while explaining his choice for silent DQ hero's but I agree with you, the protagonist would often do things that I wouldn't do anyway so it wasn't consistent. To note specifically and ESPECIALLY in DQ XI when you clearly hear Hero when he was young talking in a certain way and using a certain accent which already contradicts his stance on the whole matter entirely. If DQ games allowed you to customize your Hero from the ground up (like in DQ IX) or give narrative options for responding to questions directly to you ie. Fallout games, FFXIV, Mass Effect etc. this would make much more sense since you designed the Hero to look like how you would want them to and also respond in a manner you would respond.
Nevermind acting a specific way, I'm a woman, and whenever a game forces the self insert silent protagonist to be male, I just roll my eyes because that's not me I'm playing as, that's just some psychotic mute who responds to all stimuli with murder
I like a mix of both; silent protagonists with no personality and protagonists that talk WITH personality and honestly, while most silent protagonists can be bland and boring because all they do is stand idly, nod or shake their head in response to asking questions and they usually have voices but they only make grunt noises in battle and sometimes during cutscenes for example they are being threatened or attacked etc. As for talkative protagonists with personalities, you either love them or hate them as they can get annoying if they keep talking all the time or they are dumb and end up as a "comic relief" to the party.
I started the Astral Chain postgame yesterday. SPOILERS You play as a silent protagonist throughout the whole game. The postgame takes place one month after the final boss. When you boot up the game to start the postgame, the protagonist themselves have a fully voiced monologue explaining everything that happened within that one month. It blew my mind, hearing a silent protagonist speak in full sentences.
Do you think a silent protagonist could be a welcome addition in, say, Tales, Trails, Yakuza, Xeno or mainline FF? -Tales doesn't usually have that deep of a plot, but it does have skits, small optional segments of character interaction shown in the style of a comic book, which have characters talk about trivial things unrelated to the plot. Skits seem to be not an element made for a silent protagonist, as the party freely interacts with each other: if you use dialogue options for a protagonist that is silent, the result is that some skits have dialogue options, while the skits which don't feature the protagonist altogether don't have them. Also, skits involve very different (mostly non-story-related) topics so it'd be hard to create possible dialogue options for so many topics. -Trails is made of arcs (each spanning two games or more that are immediate sequels to each other) with different protagonists. However, said arcs happen almost one immediately after another, and protagonists from past arcs often return in the new one. Trails is often heavy on details, even about minor NPCs, and most Trails games are usually directly centered on a protagonist's personal arc. Also, first games in each arc are very slow burns in terms of plot, mostly being about character interactions and establishing party connections: it's common especially in those games to have the protagonsit (who is usually put in a unique position as the party's leader and by their backstory) directly talk to another character, and frequently lead conversations in a way that stems from what only they themselves are and not everyone can be, in an interaction that is strongly critical to the character development, especially since the character arc goes on in a sequel and as such has a fixed outcome. I do think Trails of Cold Steel could have made Rean silent, but, say, Sky 1 and 2 are heavily centered on story-relevant sentimental drama of the love story between Estelle and Joshua, Sky 3 is an introspective story about Kevin's past and his growth, Trails into Reverie requires all three protagonists to be shown speaking because it calls into question their personalities and goals both as party leaders and as characters themselves, also, Rufus' character arc is just having a drastic change in Reverie and it involves him leading direct conversations in specific ways that stem from the context around him. -Yakuza I don't know, but it's meant to be a realistic crime drama that is heavy on introspection. Also, Kazuma Kiryu isn't the usual young boy who travels the world, he seems to be often staying in locations where he's got a persoanl connnection to. -Xeno, at least Xenogears is heavy on immersion-breaking and very much a personal story for Fei. His backstory is complex, the game frequently pauses its pacing to analyze how he feels about the situation, about how he lives through the experiences he's subjected to, his growth and the growth of his love interest Elly are strongly intertwined, making Xenogears an epic love story other than a fantasy war epic. XG is about Fei, his own emotions are the plot's focus more than the actual events are, how he overcomes a trauma and his fear of his own power, how he cares for Elly (a love which he's destined to by reincarnation), how he remembers things of his past incarnations. Imagining what Fei would say would be impossible even if Fei was silent, because even if Xenogears had had a silent Fei, the game's writing is introspective and other character all expect him to say very specific things.
For me it depends. Because on one hand, a talking protagonist can make me like them more. Someone like cloud strife is way better with a voice as they’re personality makes the game better. But on the other hand, i also like to put my self in the shoes of the protagonist. It really just depends on the game and game world.
I think there can be a midway. I put forward Tokyo Mirage Sessions. Your prompts make Itsuki respond in a certain manner. While wholly meant to be the player character, he also has his own personality. In DQXI, the issue is mostly how all responses are yes or no. There’s no way for the player to respond in a general manner that suits them.
I agree that people completely miss the point of Silent Protagonists. Most people think it's literal, when in reality just allows you , the player, to BE the character. Whenever people bring up the "lack of character" from your party in DQ3 I find if laughable cause it just goes to show they have no idea how to Role Play. My DQ3 party had tones of character, the Hero and the soldier butting heads because the Hero kept dying and was a lower level then the solider which made him feel inadequate, like he was the wrong person for the job and that he would never get out of his fathers very large shadow. Combine that with the fact that his gf was also in the party and that led to the Hero not buying new equipment from the soldier for a large part of the adventure. But by the time they reached Zoma he no longer felt that way, and let the soldier be the made attacker while the Hero focused more on healing (Because he was my only healer) and because of that, because of team work, they were able to win... If the protagonists and his friends already have voices none of that could have happened. Which is why character for character sakes is dumb, because it not as interesting as something that someone can project onto the characters, than whats the point. (Btw I didn't intend to RP while I played DQ3, it just happened, which is why I love that game)
So I understand your point, but I have to disagree with you in that when a talkative protagonist blurts out something that you don’t agree with, it can still make a really good RPG. To me, RPG‘s are about the storytelling. And what’s great and storytelling, character development. If there’s a character that has obvious flaws and they work throughout the story to fix them, I think that makes for a really good storyline and character arc. I don’t hate silent protagonist, but I feel like they drag down the story because it feels like you’re playing as a lifeless husk throughout the entire adventure. I know it’s supposed to be some thing about immersion, but it really doesn’t get that way across for me. Why should I be immersed with this character that I have no emotional attachment to? And that’s not even considering the fact that when the characters interact with each other they’re always the ones telling you to make the decision so you don’t really get to make them yourself. And then sometimes the character will act on its own and you might not agree with the ideals that the game expects you to have at that point. I guess that can be used as an argument against my point as well. I just like characters with personality is all I’m saying and silent protagonists usually don’t deliver on that for me at least.
For me personally I feel like Silent Protagonists need rules as to WHY they are silent. Don't get me wrong, some games can make it work, for example. Dragon Quest 8 saying the protagonist lost his voice due to the curse on the castle is brilliant because it still gives you a chance to immerse yourself in the character. Poor silent protagonist are basically just drones that don't react to a scene despite them having a clear cut look and slight personality. So many emotional moments are cut down in DQ11 because Purple Protag won't EMOTE properly! If they can't speak, i prefer dialogue trees. The WORST example of Silent Protags to me is Link in Breath of the Wild. They have FULL VOICED cut scenes, and you can't rename Link in this game which cuts part of the immersion. Plus in the memories there are moments where characters will talk to him, he'll say nothing, won't emote and they'll act like he just said something poignant to the situation, it unnerves me so much! Can you imagine if someone described Link as "He traded his voice for power to wield the Master Sword, for what greater act of loyalty could be recalled then never questioning your superiors orders?" Can you imagine how cool that would be? Link being so Loyal to the royal family he'd give up his voice to protect them? For me I just think Silent Protaganist need more of a NARRATIVE reason why they don't emote, ESPECIALLY if their already premade characters. If i can customize them I'm down with them being silent because I know it's me i'm playing in game. But most of all I get sick of the Substitute sidekick that speaks for you sometimes.
While I definitely agree with the notion silent protagonists can be a good way to tell a story, I feel sometimes writers miss the mark on when it's appropriate. The only games I recall liking with a silent protagonist recently were DQXI, Pokemon, and the last three Ys games (7-9). Pokemon is a game where I can see them still using silent protagonists in the far future because the events taking place are what tell the story and the game's primary selling point to begin with is the pokemon. However, I personally prefer speaking protagonists because I genuinely enjoy experiencing relationships progress in games, and it can especially work for an rpg to give a character with a personality who is also just very sheltered, so every new bit of info to them about the world is just as new to the player. My favorite series of all time, the Legend of Heroes, does this very well with its first protagonist, Estelle Bright, where even the incredible things her dad did are completely unknown to her and the only major events of her past are respectively shown and talked about very early on. I don't dislike silent protagonists as a whole, but I do believe there's a time and place for them which is hard to establish in certain games, especially dialogue heavy ones with relationship options.
I'll start out by saying that custom and dialogue options is the only time when I think a silent protagonist works. However when it comes something like dragon quest and other JRPG you need your protagonist to have his own character, voice, and motivation because of how long these games are, and its also jarring when a silent protagonist does something you weren't do in games where the MC has his own character and when he does something you weren't it makes sense because he's not you he's a person with his thoughts and motivations.
I agree. If I want RPG heroes to speak, I go to side-content and spinoffs for that. Want Link to talk? Read the manga! Want a DQ character to talk? Play a spinoff! If an RPG hero is meant to be an avatar to represent the player and isn't their own character, then yes, they need to stay quiet. If they ARE their own character and you CAN'T pick their name, then fine, they can talk. That's why Sora and Noctis can talk, but Link and DQ Hero shouldn't.
Do you think the hero from FFXVI should have been silent (due to backlash against Vaan, Lightning and Noctis)? Before I played FFXVI, I was expecting Clive to be silent: not only did SE never name him or have him speak at all in any trailer, but FFXVI was looking like a Western RPG.
@@OmegaChase1002 Clive Rosfield is his own character. Also, the game has two timeskips and focuses a lot on his growth and his relationships with his brother Joshua and love interest Jill
@@OmegaChase1002 Usually, FF, Xeno and Trails craft plot twists or huge emotional drama around their protagonists, and their protagonists are inserted into very specific contexts which are often counted when they interact. Which is why they often have the protagonist shown speaking. if Xenogears had a silent protagonist, it would need to force the player to feel specific emotions, which defeats the point.
I don’t have a preference, but to those who don’t like it, these games are role playing games, you play more of a role if they don’t speak and are given optional things to do rather than just follow somebody else along their journey. Again I have no strong preference, but yeah I can see why some people prefer it
One thing missing in most games is that... There are women who are playing the game as well. Dragon Quest IV is one of them. I wish there is a Female Link in the Zelda games or an Option of a Female Character in most games. I think the souls games has the silent protagonists and have gender. Keep going Chief!
Post-watching Comment: you talk about immersion, while showing dragon quest 11(brave choice of cutscenes even…showing the classic Yes or No choice of dialogues…ehehe) DQ11 is everything BUT immersive, for the reasons that the protagonist is emotionless throughout the whole game. I feel involved because i'm playing, but that's it. Luminary doesn't show any form of realistic emotion and his choices are non-choices, you don't really decide, you either stick with the plot or you won't see the endings. The only choice is who to marry(and it's forced on those characters...but that's another issue, and it's not part of the argument here) Elder Scrolls, Fallout, Mass Effect, Dragon Age, these are immersive, because you have a certain degree of choice, about what the main character will say and act. Does that happen in Dragon Quest? NOPE....wait...Mass Effect and Dragon age have voiced protagonists...and Fallout 4 too(i think, not a fan, but i remember that the protagonist talks)...wow so little examples in your favour....Elder Scrolls and old Fallouts. ouch for your argument already. If you don't want to help Faris(i'm mentioning him because you showed a cutscene with him) you still have no choice, he goes back begging you to help him, again it's a non-choice(which it means you either do what HE wants, or you don't go forward in the story). Personally, i prefer emotional-immersion, where my emotions are in sync with the emotions of the characters. Let's apply this concept to Luminary going back to Cobblestone after being imprisoned(and escaped) from prison. You go back home, you're finally there, and before you can even see the town in ruins, you've time-trip back in the past, when you meet your younger-self, the younger version of your childhood-friend, and you freak out when your step-mother kicks you out because she doesn't recognize you...only to meet your adopted grandfather(who died of old age) who is happy to see you, proud to see how much you have grown. After this happy moment, the time-trip ends after speaking with your younger-self and you see your village and your home in ruins. I would be nearly dead inside, because i would remember King Carnelian's promise of killing everyone, and the fact that i don't see people at all, would mean that he kept the promise and killed EVERYONE I KNOW. Here this is where i cry(hell, i'm writing this and i'm in tears already) because that's a human reaction: you're sad? You cry! You're very sad? You cry A LOT! But Luminary doesn't cry, he stands up, turns around and move his feet to the next plot-point. And this issue is reinforced by the fact that in ACT 2, when Luminary goes back to Cobblestone(now called Last Bastion) he meets his almost-girlfriend(aka childhood-friend that the whole village shipped with you XD) and his mother and THEY are in tears but Luminary?Barely smiles. He just discovered that the man who was chasing him(Hendrick) actually protected his friends and family, and they're alive and well...but Luminary barely shows us a smile. If it was me right there and then, i would hug them for hours, i would interrupt them constantly just to share an act of affection and happiness, in knowing that they're alive and pretty much well(for being the apocalypse XD). It's what i do at home with my family...and we're living a decent life(despite the little crises we must deal with) Luminary despite being often compared to Link(from Breath of the Wild) he isn't nearly cool as Link. Link screams when he attacks or gets attacked(and takes damage), he shows stress, rage, sadness, and happiness...he doesn't talk but shows realistic emotions based on the situation. He is silent because the psychological weight of being the hero puts him under a lot of stress, and decides to avoid speaking. Zelda at some point discovers this, and she stops ranting and whining about Link being her bodyguard. They both share a similar problem but Zelda copes with it by arguing and rebelling against her father, Link simply "closes" his heart. Even the MC (in a few cutscenes) from Code Vein(like against the Queen) shows a degree of "passion"(i'm tired of saying "emotion" XD)...sura it's not often, and it's barely there...but is still more than i can say for Luminary. Maybe other Dragon Quest games are different...but based on reviews...i'm not exactly encouraged to play them... You showed moments from FF7 remake, that's a whole another issue, it's not about immersion but rather about telling a story in the form of a game. You don't love Tifa(or you do, but not romantically) but Cloud does. FF7 is the story of Cloud, Tifa, Barret and co. facing Sephiroth; you're simply witnessing that(not mentioning how the story-writers like Nomura and Nojima are so pissed about the fanbase misinterpreting what they wrote that they're doing everything to make it as clear as possible). If you seek for immersion, choose another game. Also, your example is CDI-Legend of Zelda...dude..way to shoot yourself in a foot...i'm not even mad, i'm impressed by your courage, i applaud you for putting a scene like that in a video, that until then, i was even taking it seriously. That Legend of Zelda is the worst of the whole series. The dialogues, or Link speaking, are barely the tip of the iceberg...the entire game sucks for an infinite number of reasons. It's like telling me "platform games sucks" and your reason is "E.T for Atari is very bad" ...you basically picked the worst game ever, to prove a point that you couldn't back up properly, you had to dig up the worst example ever, and it's even the ONLY example related to Legend of Zelda. I guess showing us Link in breath of the wild while talking(he talks, not vocally, but we see what he'll say when he interacts with NPCs) would also show how poorly DQ11 is on the matter of choosing things...despite the fact that you showed us a "yes or no scene" from DQ11...so you shot yourself in the foot once again.
I prefer chatty protagonist, I want to learn all about the protagonist, past, opinion, his reactions, everything about HIM, I’m not putting myself in the game, I’m sharing the journey of the protagonist.
I prefer silent protagonists most when you're able to customize them because it feels like they represent you, and *you* are basically the main character in the game since they don't speak for themselves. Some exceptions would have to be Link from Legend of Zelda because... yeah nobody liked it when he spoke in the cartoon or CDI games, and the Dragon Quest protagonists. But I'd prefer having the option to create our own character like Pokemon started doing in more recent titles. And I agree, when a protagonist *does* happen to speak on their own it feels like you're just guiding them to their goal. I like when protagonists speak, but mainly in more action-y games and not RPGs. But overall great video! I love the Pokemon BDSP music btw!
I'm torn. I tend to prefer voiced protagonists simply because, while yes I'm playing as them, I want to see what they think of a situation and how they react to it. An issue with JRPGs that use silent protags is sometimes they try to have their cake and eat it too, like with Byleth from Three Houses I can't really get into them when the scene gets emotional because A. You're not really given enough choices to really say that YOU had a say in the adventure, and B. In a linear pathway where he/she doesn't say anything, that's immersion breaking to me. To me there's no point in a "create a character" in FE if they're not gonna do anything standout. With that said I do agree silent protagonists/games with no dialogue is a feature that only gaming can really do to set itself apart. The examples you showed are taken from western games that focus a lot more on dialogue choices and intense customization compared to the linear yet engaging story structure of a Japanese RPG.
@@christianlopez707 That's because RPG's are like good Oscar winning movies with an interesting story while most games even those that sells millions of copies would make a laughable bad B-movie at best. Not to shit on people who enjoys laughable bad B-movies.
@@mikaelandersson1288 Yeah but given how sometimes you make decisions that effect the story it can be difficult to maintain a consistent personality. It's ultimately easier to create dialogue and write a story when the protagonist doesn't have a specific personality.
What is dates about 11's hero isn't his lack of a voice, it's his lack of reaction. I was so swept up in the emotion of the first half of the game as I'm still playing but man every time I wanted to give Ran a hug after realizing he was my grandpa, Jade a hug for her losses or just feel the biggest emotions for so many important events...he kinda just stoicly stands there or has a perpetual dull surprised look on his face, IE: 😯 I LIKE THE GAME SO MUCH but that's where it misses the mark for me: it's not that he NEEDS to feel what I feel if he's always silent, it's that I need to feel connected to who I'm playing as by seeing him feel SOMETHING. It's part of that human experience when I play any RPG.
But i saw a lot of emotion in protagonist's face. To me it was his personality. He cannot channel his emotions properly. When he came back to his village, he felt so overwhelmed, that he just stood there, unable to process how should he react to it. I'm Schizophreniac, my emotions work differently from most humans. DQ11 protagonist also acts differently form most humans. Being silent protagonist allows me to connect to him more.
Great video! I completely agree with you, my favorite example is Link, especially in Botw/Totk: his silence and seriousness (even in apparently silly situations) give me a vibe of determination I think would be ruined if he was talking non stop. I think his facial expressions are more than enough. One of the things I hate in modern games is protagonists commenting everything they do, as if the player was too stupid to get what's going on. Infamous examples: Horizon Forbidden West, God of War Ragnarök (well it's mostly the companions but still), a lot of modern games do that and I hate that with a passion.
No issues with silent protagonists, a lot of games like Dark Souls and Dragon Quest implement this really well. But I'd love if they voiced the Hero in Dragon Quest XII, I want to see his reactions, personality, and relationship with fellow party members and people in the world. Having Tidus for example voiced in FFX gave the game more emotion and made me part of their journey, to see 'his story'. Another good example is Jak and Daxter, Jak being voiced in the second game really brought out his 'changed' personality and greatly improved the story and cutscenes in my opinion
If DQ 12 has a silent protag, they need to atleast have more expressive facial expressions like the DQ8 and more recently Pokémon Legends Arceus' protags which made them more interesting and memorable. As great as DQ11 was, it’s protag was pretty bad as he never reacted to anything and it made him super uninteresting
he literally sees his own village in ruins...with the knowledge that everyone he knew(Amber, Gemma, the entire village) is dead...but not a tear, not a sound....disappointing and frustrating.
damn, i triple checked, even the Protagonist from Code Vein(which is basically Dark Soul but Anime-styled) is more expressive(they yell, scream and change facial expression during cutscenes) than Luminary in DQ11
I respectfully disagree with keeping the silent protagonist for the DQ and your reasoning seems very weak. First I find it weird you would bring up CDI Zelda link as a reason against main characters being voiced considering those games were already so different from normal Zelda that it seems silly to pretend Link talking is what ruined those games. I would then ask if you ever played a game called DQ11 where the MC just stands there emotionlessly while his party talks about their problems, even in big climatic moments. The silent protagonist was DQ11’s biggest flaw. The fact that the MC is voiced in his past version but not his present makes it even more jarring. By having him silent, we were robbed of a potentially interesting character for the sake of a “self-insert” and the narrative suffered greatly as a result. Especially since the MC was supposed to be crucial to the plot as royalty but because he can’t talk or really interact with others it limited the tragedy of his parents death and made his backstory feel unnecessary. A silent protagonist only really works when the MC has no backstory. For DQ series this isn’t usually the case and we end up with half-baked main characters who feel like they have something to say but never do.
Hell, ACT3 would be smoother IF Luminary talked Remember the situation: Luminary just went back in time, and he is in Alboria(home of Serena and Veronica). Luminary knows that Hendrick, Jasper and King Carnelian are chasing the heroes "from the shadows" and they will attack once they're on Yggdrasil(and Veronica would offer her life to save the others). Luminary could have taken a few minutes to tell about it to Erik and friends and prepare accordingly, or face them right there, outside Alboria and then go up to Yggdrasil and doing everything else. I mean Luminary in ACT3 knows how to forge the Sword of Light and everything else..he even has one sword of light himself(although corrupted by the evil powers of Mordregon). I think with Luminary being able to speak, we would cut off that part in half, and speeding up the plot a little.
Best example of silent protagonist is Flynn for me. Playing SMT4 with him was such a hoot and there're not only so many times Flynn can weigh in his thoughts during battles and key points, but the characters all react to it, making it feel more engaging. My favorite is an option to either spare or mercy kill a boss. Doing the former has character A yelling at you later and the B defending your decision. The latter causes B to be upset and A calmly explains that it was best way. I honestly loved silent Flynn so much that when SMT4A came out and Flynn became a talking NPC, it felt...jarring. Like he was no longer the Flynn 'I' knew (still like the game and npc Flynn though.) The worst example of a silent protagonist is the Pokemon SwSh protagonist. I picked the girl and she broke my immersion multiple times by doing nothing and continuing to smile, even during key moments where such a reaction isn't warranted. Like Bede gloating how he beat Hop and sent him crying, and everything about Hop going through his arc. Few to no words of comfort, a plastic smile as he agonizes over his problems, and just seemingly detached from everything despite being his close friend. It all comes down to putting in the effort in the dialogue options and/or body language of the character to keep them expressive and reacting to everything happening, and the cast around them reacting to it accordingly so it never feels pointless.
I like silent protagonists for one major reason. They don't say stupid shit. All too often I play a game (Particularly an RPG) where the hero says something that is rude or stupid or just plain mean. Seeing a hero say these things makes me like them less. Like their goals less. Like their friends less and eventually like the game less. I have had more than a few games where I just alt f4 out to the menu because there's no way in hells this guy just said that 5hours into this playthrough and is not a villian. It also feels like games where protagonists say less focus a little more on letting players make a few of their own choices even if the game does consist of checking off a few boxes you can pick the order or how those boxes get checked or who with. Another thing is for some reason games with voiced protagonists LOVE TO make them spout one liners. Constantly. Do you really think I wanna hear the same 4 jokes coming from the one character I cannot remove from the party for 80 hours? The answer is no. I do not. Particularly when those lines tell me basically nothing of import and serve only to try and make your annoying protagonist likeable. I do tend to get a kick out of "semi silent" protagonists like say master chief from halo. Who says only a few lines. All of which almost always line up with what I wanted as a player. Like come on. "Give me a weapon." Is exactly the thought going through my head after a lengthy tutorial segment. And yet he also doesn't go off all game. Being basically completely silent the entire time. It's a way better balance than most games take. I would also love to see something like an actual justification for a silent protagonist. Imagine just zooming the camera in on their throat to show hefty scars. Thus justifying the lack of speaking while also still getting the benifit of a non speaking protagonist. I remember in one game there was a guy who couldn't speak himself so he would use tape recorded messages to like buy things in the shops and it was honestly creepy but also very cool. I think the biggest reason why silent protagonists are better for RPG and even FPS games is that we want someone who can represent us in the story. And most of us probably arent loudmouths who have a list of 9001 things to say while slicing a man in half.
I don't have _too_ much to add as I think you nailed a lot of what I would say about this topic. The only major thing you didn't touch, which I will right now, is that people shouldn't forget that a character's traits and personality can also come across through actions. You don't only learn about a character through their speech. Character's like Link and Samus say a lot through their actions and through other avenues such as body language. That is interesting because a silent JRPG protagonist usually will have a predetermined design and all that. They're just missing their voice. So you could argue that the silent protag works best in more Western RPGs where you can design everything about your character and also choose your dialogue. But silent protags still work in games like DQ8 and DQ11, so obviously there's more to it than that. I also will say that I do find it silly how so many people nowadays basically pretend that certain mechanics or choices for games are inherently bad when they aren't. Silent protagonists for one, but there's also things like random encounters or lives systems. Elements like these are iconic-ally game-like elements. They're only possible in this medium, and that makes those elements (and games) unique from other artforms.
you forget that Samus and Link are exceptions. Link, shows emotions, he screams, yells, in Breath of the Wild we see him sad, happy, and furious, he speaks...indirectly(we don't hear voices, but there are dialogues, we SEE lines of dialogues related to what Link says or asks). Samus in most of her games(even during the cutscenes of Metroid Dread) also yells, screams, her facial expression changes. Silent protags actually don't really work in games like DQ, because they're mostly the same, they've a heroic background, and it's in their destinies to be heroes(literally Luminary's story) and they've similar if not identical methods, always Lawful-Good, only the true villain must be killed and the greyish-characters must live so that they can redeem themselves through hard-working. in DQ11 is obvious, Luminary doesn't cry, doesn't talk, doesn't decide how to do things(meaning that WE players can't do those things). For example IF DQ11 is immersive, in ACT3 i would refuse to climb Yggdrasil and waited for Jasper and attacked him before entering Alboria, but i can't, despite being a plot-hole based on Luminary being silent(or indirectly talkative because we've lines "Luminary explains the situation to [name of a character]" across the game, they're like 3 or 4 but they're there) because what stopped Luminary from warning Erik and Co. that Luminary time-travelled and knows that Jasper, Hendrick and King Carnelian(possessed by Mordregon) are planning an ambush on top of Yggdrasil? NOTHING. and this kind of situation happens several times in DQ11...which breaks the immersion. But worth of all...is that MOST(not all of them, in fact Samus and Link are exception in this) of Silent Protags...are also emotionless. Tell me where and when Luminary cries....because he doesn't, not when he goes back to Cobblestone and discover how everything is in ruins, not when he has a short time-travel experience and met his adopted grandfather(which is stated that Luminary adores) not when in ACT2 Luminary arrives at Last Bastion(ruins of Cobblestone rebuilt to protect mankind from demons and monsters) and everyone he believed to be dead...are actually alive....even Amber and Gemma are crying out of happiness...but Luminary? not even a surprised face. Don't give a character with a major background, and people he loves...if they won't be devastated if they die, or angry if they're in danger. There is a limit to "silence" and it's when things get "emotionless" the lack of emotion breaks the immersion...
I agree cause i prefer putting myself in there which is best done when you get to control customization for your character even if its just the outfits it adds an extra layer
Joker from P5 is my favourite silent protagonist because you can show off his personality through dialogue options, adding that immersion you stated earlier in the video.
Well, a silent protagonist was strong back in the days especially because the graphics of the games were much more simple and allowed the player to become the protagonist more easily, which is why this mechanic is called outdated nowadays. In a 2D world with pixelated visual, you can imagine how does the world really look, how do the PNJs talk, what kind of personality does the hero have , etc., the immersion isn’t broken easily. However, in a modern 3D game, it does feel weird to have a silent protagonist, especially when other characters interact with them, and develop feelings (friendship, love, anything) for them, the immersion can be broken. For a good immersion with a silent protagonist in a modern 3D game, I would personally say that a first person view would be better. However, the kind of mechanic in which you can choose full sentence when PNJs ask questions to the hero can be a good idea, but it has to have actual impact in the game (which can be complicated to create, with all the possibilities), this mechanic in DQ11 was clearly badly made.
Personally I completely agree with you, but maybe for different reasons. My favorite genre is rpgs in general, both jrpgs and some western rpgs, an I 100% agree some games really do hurt my immersion when they forced a voice on the pc. Because 9 times out of 10 when they give the pc a voice the voiced lines have a tone which ultimately leads to a persona forming, then it ends up not feeling like *My* character but the developers character I just get to play with.
They are only good in 2D games and games without voice acting, I don't need to be myself to understand someone its why I hate characters like Byleth and such especially considering your choices don't even matter in most JRPGs
I'm glad to see this video. I've seen too many people nowadays talk about how much they hate silent protagonists and how unneeded they are. I've always felt very immersed with them and one of the biggest reasons why I love rpgs like Dragon Quest. Really feel like most people completely miss the point of them as time went on.
I just don't like silent protagonists personally. For dragon quest it's whatever because the stories are rarely strong enough to warent them, I just don't enjoy playing an empty husk thats supposed to represent "me" I'd rather have a character that has their own thoughts and motivations and personality. Hell I'd take a character I don't LIKE compared to a silent protagonist because then it brings forth a feeling. Also dude you bring up CD-I zelda as a reason against voiced protagonists? Come on lmao. Like that "link" isn't a completely different version and isn't even comparable to how he would actually be written if he could speak in the actual games. That's stupid.
Yes DEFINITELY more a fan of silent protags where you're kinda building their personality subconsciously. It's what I've enjoyed in DQ, SMT, Pokemon, etc. Hope it's not cursed to bring the franchise up here but the P5 spinoff Strikers , which tbf I haven't played, has Joker talking way too much from what I've seen like the personality I made up for him in P5 was lost. Brain dump, this comment might not make sense lol
THANK YOU!!! Finally, someone who feels the same way as I do about this topic! You said what I’ve been trying to get across to other people about this perfectly in just 5 minutes! Thank you, so much!
I feel like it's mainly western audiences that complain about things like silent protagonists or turn based combat. I don't think DQ12 needs to change that stuff at all. I'm fine with sticking with traditional as long as it works.
Do you think Cloud Strife should have been silent in FFVII Remake and Rebirth? Would FFVII's central plot twist, for instance, work better with a silent Cloud? Because Cloud has been given dialogue options in these games, unlike in the original VII, but he's not only still a speaking character like in the original game, but the game is also more detail-oriented.
I still feel like the negatives outweigh the positives of having a silent protagonist. The protagonist is supposed to be the 'most important character' and having them not talk.. idk. Maybe it also depends on what kind of person you are. When I played FF7R I was able to empathize with Cloud even tho I'm not like him in real life.. It's like there was no barrier between us. At the same time, when I played DQIX as a kid I didn't care at all. You don't have party members in that game and your protagonist is silent. You only have Stella and the other NPC's. Still I was able to fill in all the gaps using my mind. Not sure if I could really do that now tho. Very interesting take, chief
In JRPG I don't want to play as a silent protagonist that won't do shit, like you know how insufferable was to watch DQ XI protagonist not react or do shit during the post game? I'm sick of Silent protagonist. Wait wait you have a problem with Tidus from FFX?...no man, just no. In new vegas I can tell people to fuck off and actually say that and get into a fight, thats great but In Dragon quest? nothing matters, heck your silent protagonist is a liability. In persona games well your character has way more charm and personality and can have voice and lines in combat that reflect his true self I take that any day over "immersion" i despise that word is just nonsense. I just want a good jrpg and having a good main character that I can follow on his quest is all I ask. I come to hate silent protagonist not so long ago, I think is because I played a shit ton of them since the pandemic, old and new.
tbh i don't mind silent protagonist if that character was created by you for premade characters like heroes in Zelda or DQ series they should talk so yeah custom characters should be silent and premade characters should talk. because silent protagonist that you create is basically you in that world where's premade by devs who want to push the story on should talk yes, I'm a big fan of custom character games because that's my unique character in that world
i have pretty much the opposite opinion i almost never insert myself to protagonist i like when there there own characters i find it funny when you can kind of guess what a silent protagonist is probably like based on there backstory but it normally just makes me wish they would just talk i mean some of the best parts of rpgs are the characters so i kind of want the protaganist to have a personality and bringing of your joke of about zelda cdi and a talking link i would say the zelda manga shows a link that can talk can make for a great character
The reason why I never liked a ff game is because the protagonist speaks, and because square enix don't put their time in dragon quest but they put it in ff, sometimes I feel that the protagonist in ff have a very dull and weak personality which doesn't let me to connect with them.
I disagree with making a blanket statement out of it; for example, while Crono is expressive and appears to have some semblance of a personality, the Luminary is a plank of wood. So as with most other things, it comes down to execution.
If they have personality I guess they are fine. The only two franchises that succeeded with that are Jak and Daxter and the Legend of Link. I find it only ads to a story if they find ways to compensate. Would be cool to have one that uses sign language.
I disagree... I think that the silent hero in Dragon Quest VIII was both awkward and dumb and I would have loved to hear him speak to the other party members or just to other characters in general.
yes wow so immersive when i pick an option and watch the character flap her hands. love to see other characters talk around me like im not there. so stupid
In the case of JRPGs I definitely prefer silent protagonists because that way it actually feels like my own journey,after all that’s why they are called ROLE PLAYING games,it’s not like in The Last of Us for example where the story is supposed to be Joel’s journey and growth,while in games like Dragon Quest,Pokémon and Persona for example the main point is letting us have our own vision of the world we’re in.
I’m in the silent protag camp - all of my top series have them and I have been able to see myself through their lens. I also just enjoy the silence as a means to sit and mull in my thoughts about how I feel about what other characters say and do throughout a game. I do understand though that with newer technologies in gaming, silent protagonists can feel out of place if the rest of the game is not crafted around them conceptually. I find it especially jarring sometimes when other important in-game characters are so well voiced, portrayed and talking to the main character - the contrast makes the silent protagonist standout like a sore thumb.
My favourite use of a silent protagonist and a game I spent the better part of this past decade playing is from Final Fantasy XIV. Not only are you able to make your character how you want but you are also given options to respond how you would want to respond. They are a bit limited compared to other more hardcore RPG games like the ones from Bethesda but they serve their purpose of rebellious reponse, wise response, or passive etc. Since the game has now been touted as the best narrative experience in an MMORPG and arguably the best story in the Final Fantasy series, having your character (or You) experiencing the world the way you want is a feeling that can't be replaced. I agree to silent protagonists and have no qualms with them if they are done right ie. your own created character and given options for responding to situations or questions as that would complete the reason for having being silent in the first place based on Yuji Hori's "reasons". In DQ XI, I mentioned in another post that young Hero speaks while in his younger days and clearly has a personality and an accent. How do you feel about this? I immediately remember thinking back when I played and during this part I scoffed a bit since it isn't consistent with Yuji Hori's explanations that he stood so firm on for so long.
When i play the DQ games, I try to voice the Heroes in a way they did Luca in Your Story. But my main rule is that the Hero's name cannot be spoken, like in the voicings for VIII and XI. I did that in my playthroughs of I-III on Switch.
The thing that people forget when it comes to silent protagonists either in just text only games or have voice acting is that alot of these games are written poorly or have the wrong voice actor/director for the job (probably a generic english anime voice actor) . Also alot of gamers are... well to put it nicely... too emotionally attached to the cliche' of having protagonists being silent. If they dare speak even for a little with great acting or not it's gonna trigger their easily emotional brains and hate it. Also some games do get too pushy with their characters or support characters talking TOO much where they can end up spelling out puzzles or objectives out to you where it can get annoying because they don't want the player to figure something out. Also silent protagonist isn't really a great idea because vast majority of rpgs worldwide have illusion of choice that no matter how much you want to deviate, you cant. And in rpgs where you can chose you own path or chat options. Tend to have very weak story telling and weak endings where i can imagine a struggling writer to come up like possibly a dozen scenarios of what characters will be saying or what they'll be doing. because hours ago the player did this n that but recently they say something that conflicts their previous actions that they don't know about and it causes other characters around your protagonist to hate you. If the protagonist is written n voiced well. Then I enjoy playing as that protagonist even if I don't agree with his thoughts and actions because that makes me want to debate and fan speculate alternate scenarios. With a silent protagonist especially in games where no matter his choice doesn't change the destiny of the story just makes me not give a shit 90% of the time where I end up favouring the supporting cast more because they have personality, they're mostly well animated instead of being a soulless plank of wood that is our protagonist.
No most voiced characters are usually just decent at best ear grating annoying at worse, at least with silent protagonist they are never annoying and constantly dropping cringe one liners.
Yes there is room for both silent and talkitive protagonists. However there have been work arounds with the silent ones like dialogue options or body language like the persona, fire emblem protags and LInk However there are also times where looking at the history, some protagonists were just silent because of hardware limitations or affect on the theme of the game. Samus who is Laconic or the Castlevania characters come to mind there. Of course expressions and body language can be all one needs to not be enough. Regarding RPG's though, yes silence can be immersive and I get the fun into imagining your own thought process on to a main character but so can a character with a voice and face that was they're from the start. and being easy to live out that in game. but there are also instances of that being boring or fun for a while but gets old and stagnant. Silent characters do not interest or capture everyone because the leads do not have flavor to them and aren't interested in pretending there. I can think of many examples where the silent protagonists didn't catch on while the talkative ones did. Like I know Elma gets way more promoted than Cross from Xenoblade X, where many wished she was the lead of that game like Shulk and Rex was in theirs.
I agree. It keeps you from hating the character, and imagine if in the next Kirby game after Forgotten Land, he just started speaking full sentences. Silent protagonists are not outdated and are found in some of the best games of all time.
I dont necessary agree with a lot of the arguments because the belief that the silent protagonist gives you more immersion just does not work with me. It feels like a leftover relic from dnd days. Especially if the character has a preestablished character design like Joker or Adol
@@orangeslash1667 lol bruh Corrins so dumb, thing is dudes not even silent tho which makes it wierd cuz he's customisable and ugh fates plot is just so silly, tho I still play conquest religiously, games way too fun
@@NepheneeGyattRizz the Reason for fate's sloppy story, is because the writers where trying to achieve too much with not enough time. Intelligents Systems had an idea for Fate to have three stories to appeal to everyone, but they realized that they didn't have enough writers. So they hired an outside writer, Shin Kibayashi was that writer. Intelligent Systems wanted Shin to write the outline for each pathway, what happened instead is that Shin wrote 500 pages for each pathway. Nintendo knew this was too long so they cut the story into pieces without the writers permission and the fact the Nintendo demanded Fates come on the Fire Emblem Anniversary only made things worse. Which resulted in this hilariously mess of a story. The good news this that there is a manga based on Fates that is a little better. Its called Fire Emblem If: the Crown of Niberlung
I say you critical hit the nail on the head. Plus, series identity is another related topic worth discussing. After all, getting to far away from that tends to create what feels like empty- cash grabs like what happened with the Final Fantasy 13 trilogy, Elder Scrolls Blades and Metroid Other M.
TLDR for me: Prefer voiced or just well written protagonists by actual top tier writers. Silent protag's roles tend to be very standard n dull with development.
I don't prefer one over the other. I think immersion really depends on the quality of the writing. Having a silent protagonist in games that are very characters driven is probably not gonna do any good for immersion. If anything, it'll likely break the immersion. While I like the DQ games, writing and story telling are not their strongest suit.
if i want immersion i play pathfinder(or DnD), or games with character creation(see literally every MMORPG or games like Code Vein), or just roleplay-websites. DQ11 has clearly the worst example of silent protagonist and the immersion is broken because you can see in the most obvious and blatant way that Luminary has no real personality aside being generally good (or selfless if you want) he did have motivations but they're also very generic then we have chatty characters like Erik, Sylvando and Veronica, just...don't stop talking and in those scenes the Luminary simply (and metaphorically) disappear from those scenes because they made him silent as an adult but talkative as a kid. Not mentioning that nothing(clothes aside) of Luminary is customizable (and even with clothes, you have a small choice, unless you use mods or somehow edit the game-files if it's even possible...i don't know). DQ11 doesn't allow choice either which breaks my immersion because i would have refused some requests and accepted others, when i play DQ11 i don't feel involved, i don't feel part of it and i don't get to choose what to do...or in which order to do things because most of the time, you need a special item or to defeat a certain boss before continuing the game. Again Skyrim is immersive, because you can have the character you want, and do the things in whichever order or sequence you prefer. in DQ11 i would have gladly ditched Rab, Sylvando and Hendrick and Jade(they're boring, and more importantly have one single plot point and once it's done, they just give a random comment during other moments of the game)...but the game doesn't allow that...so what i should imagine that they're not there?? The Game doesn't allow that by shoving them down my throat
I think what we want Link to be is to have the same dialogue options as in an RPG. He doesn't talk and there's no indication on what he's saying to everyone. We can assume he DOES talk to people and not actually a mute. I think that's the problem. I am ok with a dialogue option for characters in an RPG but we see a lot of times where said silent protag stares off and suddenly everyone knows what he's saying. That makes no sense in a narrative.
This video does an excellent job explaining why silent protag trope is so loved. I never really understood it until then with 3:46 👍 I don't like them tbh. Western RPGs will have many dialogue choices to change outcome of main story and side quests to make up for it. But most JRPGs silent MCs seriously lack personality, at best they'll have a facial reaction to current situation. Most just have another character be a mouth piece for them and "choices" are simple yes or no, mostly forced to ''choose" yes to advance dialogue (what is the point of this? Lol). I've never ever felt immersed this way to project myself as a main character, because most of time any choice isnt something I'd do personally so why bother. I'd much rather they have a defined character that is their own person, same for cast of party members than them all being mute emotionless blank slates like DQ9. One of few silent protags I've played where them being mute actually was part of their backstory and main plot: Crosscode, 2D bit graphic high action JRPG with loads of fast puzzles.
