Why straight armlocks hardly ever work standing unless you apply them as elbow wrenches or elbow breaks. Here's the article on my site which goes into even more detail on this topic: selfdefensetutorials.com/stand...
Fascinating how every one says he’s wrong and then when they describe what the lock is for they state exactly what he said. Yes you can easily break the arm. He’s saying pulling it off at speed without injuring someone is almost impossible. He’s not talking about sliding into Kesa and face planting the guy while destroying his arm. He’s not talking about purposely wrenching the arm like Tyson. He’s saying arm locking for compliance without injury is very difficult. Perhaps if this was all you practiced you might pull it off but without physical superiority and amazing skill you’d be breaking that arm.
Depends how strong and aggressive the attacker is. Controlled standing armlocks are easy against weak opponents. A great option when dealing with a drunk woman who tries to scratch your eyes out for instance (we've all encountered them).
@@coldlessons don't take advice from someone with actual experience lol he does self defense videos he's not a UFC fighter, and even if he was his opinion is still more valuable than someone saying he does a sport he can't be good at something almost just like that sport except with some extra stuff. You don't think someone who does a sport could what bite, scratch, pull hair, eye poke. I'm sure they are perfectly capable of fighting without rules but I'm sure they probably wouldn't need to do that stuff anyways. That's the stuff they teach in women's self defense for when a mans trying to take advantage of you would you scream and blow a whistle to protect yourself on the street to I mean it works.
@@coldlessons so what's the plot mr. Word salad. That your suppose to tear someone's arm off in any self defense situation because im pretty sure even in self defense situation you're getting arrested for unnecessary force unless it was required. Or was the plot that your street fighting skills are far better than actual professional fighters? I'm just not sure.
Nice. Your central point, that standing armlocks are not intended to be submissions is correct. You either destroy the elbow, or they are actually takedowns, where you put the other guy ion the ground at your feet. In the old days of the koryu combat arts, putting the other guy at your feet was the objective of both standing locks and throws so that you could deploy your knife/dagger and end the confrontation. IJF Judo used to allow standing armlocks in shiai, but outlawed them because of all the injuries that resulted when they were applied.
I concur, In my street based jujitsu training the stand arm lock was always preceded by a strike to the face and the arm lock was used for a take down , not a submission.
This is actually the way most joint locks in karate are meant to be done, despite them almost always being taught as if they were restraining techniques. I actually covered all of that in a recent article on my site, so this is surprisingly timely. Thanks for sharing!
That first armpit lock(waki gatame) really works though. I saw a video of a Judo player doing the first technique very fast and broke his opponents arm. Also I stumbled upon a video of complation for Nippon Kempo and they did it all the time standing and get the tap. Shinya Aoki did it as well in one of his MMA match. My personal problem with these there is no safe realistic way to train standing submissions you either go explosively and injure your partner or you dont do it at all
Agreed in a way, in HEMA our grappling locks tend to be stand up, their main purpose is almost always to take someone to ground for extra punishment with strikes, to deliver killing blow with dagger or simply damage the limb on the way down.
I don't think you are approaching this the way you should. Serious combat systems which use standing armlocks NEVER limit the technique just to the armlock, it's a process through which you achieve a dominant position (usually delivering one or more strikes), and it's common that the surprise factor is assumed (in a grappling match the opponent is EXPECTING you to grapple him). Nevertheless, obviously a ground armlock is much more reliable. Thing is that standing grappling techniques usually aim to the floor as the ultimate objective. Standing control positions are clearly unstable. The fighter who uses them knows this, and does not try to retain the opponent indefinitely within them, but to execute a joint attack, strike the helpless opponent, or transition to a floor position better suited for controls. As far as I understand, the idea is (a very common idea in martial arts) not to use the armlock as a standalone but within a combination of moves.
Effective, but hard to train - look up "wakigatame judo foul" on RU-vid for a bunch of examples of why it's dangerous to train: a standing wakigatame into a takedown is an automatic disqualification in Judo competition, because it'll commonly severely damage the shoulder. Thus, like a lot of super-effective moves and killshots etc - they might work, but the fact that they're almost impossible to train at full force means you can't really get good at them, unfortunately.
Takedown and shoulder lock from standing arm lock is not at all hard to train, yellow-green belt stuff in e.g. Korean styles. You don't have to jump your weight on it in training, you can just press it, like always in training any joint lock.The biggest issue with arm locks in street is that to get them, unless someone actually grabs your wrist or clothes, you should ideally come from the side. Very hard to catch when confronting active opponent. That's why they are good for bouncers, but not so for street fighters. Kesting is probably my favourite of the guys making these videos to tube, lot's of respect, but this time he stumbled to what most of these guys do annoyingly regularly, analyzing use of technic they can't do correctly.
The issue seems with the way it's approched an arm drag can make most standing arm locke word but the thing is you have to break the arm before they find a way out of course so it's difficult to train but the best way is having a good setup done fast and safely
I cant believe this channel has under 40k subscribers. Been watching you for a while. Very solid instruction and reasoning. Very easy to take what your showing and implement some new techniques into live training. Thank you!
I agree with much of your analysis but these types of locks become significantly easier to apply after a strike. You can't strike in a grappling tournament and it doesn't make that much sense in MMA. However, to arrest, detain, or escort someone out they tend to work pretty well.
I don't really like your title. Standing armlocks DO work, simply not the way most people think they work. First of all, I'd like to point out that you can actually make a standing arm lock work as a lock. But for that you need to use strikes. Simply trying to take his arm and bend it won't work because if the opponent simply uses his muscle power to slow down your lock you'll never have the time to apply it. But if you have control of his arm, then strike him in the ribs/face/whatever and immediately use the technique, you can pull it off (although it definitely isn't a 100% move). Secondly, arm locks are useful even if they don't make the opponent tap out because they give you opportunity. If your arm lock works half way, you still inflicted some pain and broke the structure of the enemy, giving you time and targets to hit. Arm wrenches serve the same purpose (although they hurt more but don't break the structure as much.) Finally, I think you misunderstand something about arm locks because of your BJJ background (and also because of the way they are taught today). In most traditional systems, arm locks aren't arm locks (because of the flaws you pointed out), they're arm breaks. The goal is not to slowly apply pressure until the opponent surrenders. If you get control of a limb, you simply break by wrenching the arm really fast. So in summary, arm locks are misunderstood. Most of the time they don't serve as finishers to make the guy tap out or surrender. They are used to hurt, break, give opportunities. And also, they can work when used to control if you use strikes to distract (although I agree it is quite hard to pull off).
Julien I 100% agree, been practicing a system of Kung fu for over 20 years that uses these kind of locks I have pressure tested them and they work but as you said you have to strike first or set up the lock by baiting the opponent.
I see very similar techniques in Okinawan karate, which likely suggests karate in actual practice looks more like collar & tie dirty boxing than kickboxing type striking. This would make a lot of karate techniques and form make sense
You are right. The context of this video is wrong. You would never just try to arm bar someone from a standing position. He is doing that particular technique wrong... you get higher on the shoulder and in reality you would drop to the ground which would destroy the shoulder as well as face plant the other guy. You would end up in a kesa like position controlling his destroyed arm with him unconscious face down on the ground. From the time you grab their arm to the time they hit the ground would only be like 2 seconds and give no opportunity to counter or escape. All locks work because of physics and thinking this won't is idiotic.
@@maxzhao8331 what I described is waki gatame and it can most definitely be started in a standing position but like I said ends up on the ground with the attacker face smashed in the ground and shoulder dislocated at a minimum. The idea of anyone trying to do an arm bar standing up and it be as effective as it is on the ground is ridiculous. If the situation called for a standing lock it would be a waki immediately accompanied by a sit out... it would be an arm bar. If an arm bar is used while standing it is only a transitional technique meant to do quick damage or transition to something with better control or a takedown.
Well intended and generally I find the tutorials interesting. This one identifies some common issues for beginners but they're not impediments for those more fully immersed. How many "classical jiujutsu"
They do work, you just need to get the shoulder down. Once that happens you can do whatever you want. There are many ways to control the shoulder to facilitate the arm lock....Wake gatame. There are 2 main version of the wake gatame. The classic one which is an actual arm lock and the more Goshin Jutsu form (self-defense) which causes trauma to the elbow and wrist. In order to get the classic version the opponents arm has to be extended out past his center causing the shoulder to drop. Adding a kote mawashi (wrist rotation and lock) helps greatly.
It certainly still seems like you can use a more safely (gradually) applied armlock to set up other techniques - there's a very limited range of motion they can use to escape one. For example, from the waki gatame you showed, as they pivot out you can get underneath them for a fireman's carry. That way you can train these locks somwhat safely in sparring.
I managed to do a waki gatame in randori once, but my judo sensei at the moment told me slowly slowly! It's a dangerous move to do in randori or sparring in judo or bjj
I love Aikido,arm-locks,wrist-locks,finger-locks,etc.They can be very useful in a pre-fight or just situations where someone may be trying to harrass,bully or tease,or maybe just sort of a pre-fight conflict.You're talking on your cell-phone,local moron grabs it away from you-now what?Feign like you're going to grab your phone back,but go for a wrist-lock or even better a finger-lock.Now if they want to take it to the next level,then we go boxing,Jui-jtsu or whatever.Many times these would be bullies don't really want a fight especially if they think you might could actually defend yourself.Now would I go straight into a fistfight trying this stuff out?No,but even then many times an opening can pop up where you could maybe briefly lock up your opponent.I do agree actually MMA style jui-jitsu is much better suited for a street fight scenario.
Good points. Another way where it can work, is if the person is distracted (like for instance by a strike) which can buy you time to apply something like that. Cuz that's the trouble on a resisting opponent, applying it, once it's locked in it can be used. I interviewed a pro MMA fighter who has a background in jujutsu (not Brazilian, Japanese) and he said that many standing joint locks came about from samurai fighting with armour and thus being slower and having more time to apply the techniques. He also said that as a bouncer he had managed to use standing joint locks, but only on drunken people. Here's the interview in case anyone's curious :) ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-iVa-Qv7v2Ck.html
Zen Dragon it is also depends in your opponent, work better if he is untrained, unawared and you should do it quick. My friend said it is used not to submit but totally for breaking opponent's arm and or transitional move for next more devastation blow....🙏🙏🙏
Yea, that can also be a context for using the technique:) In terms of practicality, you can't isolate a technique from its context, when it comes to judging wether it might work or not.
They work if the other person let's you "get it on fully" and you keep there hands above their head...if they go one way or another it transission. Either face plant into a back,side Kessagatame, or if they come back up, hit another judo or wrestling move
I've hit standing arm locks. The stronger your opponent is, the harder they are, but this is true on the ground too. Certainly, with a much stronger opponent they are very hard to do. But I think the issue here is that if you want to be able to do them you have to make an effort to incorporate them into your sparring. No different to any other techniques in that sense.
It would be interesting to compare your version display of the technique in question and have a advanced black belt aikido, jujutsu, judo or chin na practitioner demonstrate. There will certainly be a disparity in physicality and structural effect.
A grab rather than a punch means either they're not 100% committed to damaging you OR they're pulling you on to a punch/knife. In the former, you are just getting them off you, doesn't matter if it 'works'. It's a de-esculation technique, without hurting them. If it's something you feel is more serious (you tend not to see knives, so just have to decide) it's a transition to a pin on the ground, but NOT an armbar. Seriously, as a man, you're likely to be attacked by more than one person, and going to the ground is just asking for a head kick. Crazy how self defense seems to be loving BJJ. Anyway, DO NOT do arm lock where you stand in front of person (as here) as you're likely to be thrown. Locking elbow, you have shoulder control (although briefly).
That kind of armbar I "think" is originally from traditional JJJ (where I learned it) and is a defense against a small-ish blade. The attack is from a blade thrust, then into an armbar like you show, but finish of the technique is to drive the person to the ground with the weight of your body while controlling the weapon hand, keeping it away and in front of you. The standing armbar when there is no weapon (from a lapel grab) is done differently in JJJ (again, as I was taught). You face towards the person, locking the empty attacking hand behind your bicep, and you control the opponents body through the shoulder. This is how they do it in Aikido and other arts. Here's a good demo: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-tSiFpfxDgeg.htmlm36s In CMA, the standing armbar isn't a submission technique, it's a transition technique, and that snapping you describe is part of it. Believe it or not, it's kind of a natural thing to do in Taiji push hands practice and you learn to feel it coming and defend against naturally.
Learn Nikkyo its an Aikido technique that works when the standing armbar doesnt work and when your opponent pulls his arm back. I know I've heard that Aikido doesnt work but i dont know check it out
Dude im a black belt of this martial art but ours has a twist, we don't practice like the traditional aikido where we defend ourselves from a grab but from a punch
It's like this.... you can come proficient in self-defence after training with a solid instructor in traditional karate in 2-3 years, a good thai boxing school / boxing gym will have you there in half that time Gracie BJJ system - should be able to hold your own ON THE GROUND against MOST of Joe Public inside 12 mths As for Aikido? 4-5 years (1st dan) at a good school before you can regularly make joint locks and throws work IRL
Because you didn't have proper mai'ai (distancing) and didn't get his balance, first you have to get his balance, then the armlock will work if you have proper mai'ai (distancing)... difference between "grappling" and aiki... aiki you get their balance first with proper mai'ai... on the ground it's easier because you can just force it if he's dumb enough to let you get close enough to take him to the ground... with proper mai'ai the attacker is forced to commit to the attack or else he just can't reach you or harm you... in aiki as you know you would first establish a strong hamni (stance) then establish proper mai'ai (distancing), then strike first, then take the balance then do the arm lock and it would work if all those things are done, but if you don't do them all then it won't work...
The only other way to make this work consistently is to practice it with very gradually increasing intensity against a partner who is gradually increasing his resistance. At some point, after a long time (months, years) of consistently training it, you can control a large majority of opponents without just destroying their arm. This of course, makes it easier to just destroy their arm when context demands and if you're training smart, it also give you some ideas on how to follow up and counter, when the technique fails.
Also there's another video on youtube with jujitsu teachers claiming standing arm bars don't work because they are not used in MMA, but the other jujitsu teacher reminds him that someone broke someones arm using it in a MMA match and the other guy said oh then it does work then, we were wrong. Shinya Aoki Vs Keith Wisniewski ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-xgIuPpUT4fw.html Sakuraba vs Renzo Gracie ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-ge34hs-4PKk.html
Standing breaks and manipulations only work if they are applied while the person is off balance either from a percussive strike, shifting weight, or mental distraction. They should never be practiced as a main technique always a follow up or an option, though, you might ask police officers or bouncers if these techniques hardly ever work.
I have doubts about those techniques but also doubts about your video. You are suppose to make it in an explosive way and also pivot your position, plus usually this moves apply after the rival punched and you effectively parried. Still, I agree it's maybe too hard to pull off because I have trouble trying this one on sparring, but I am not sure if it is because I didn't practiced enough.
Just read my first message It should read step the left leg back deeply. If you have the right arm locked . And the right if you have the left locked. Sorry I was doing two things at once . A lot of modern jujitsu misunderstand arm locks, wristlocks . The arm or wrist is not what is being locked .. it is just the point of contact. The lock should control the whole body .. this technique does that .
What about hara Gatame and or mune gatame why are you not rotating the wrist? Under the armpit is bad form for an effective Lock. Why not show reverse lock on the outside with transitions into Kani bazami. Or elbow reap locking on the shoulder .. standing arm locks do work and can be applied even in a clinch fight. It’s not a go to move as self defense but it’s been canon in judo and jiu jitsu for a long time. Why is it that these techniques are shown as submission techniques and not as control steps into better positions and or throws takedowns ? There is a whole other side to this short clip that could easily fill a 2 hour seminar.
They don’t work as submissions, they do work as devastating attack’s, if anyone wants to see a video of them working in sparring/competitions (not a fat jujutsu guy in a bathrobe) they can look up judo tachi waki gatame. He has a point that you can’t really get proficient at them because you can’t really train with them because as you will see if you look them up there’s like a 100% injury rate
His body position is wrong it will never work like that . Everyone watching grab a training buddy do this armlock and step the right leg back deeply. Then tell me it doesn't work . Be careful this correct way of doing the technique makes it very easy to break the elbow. I have used it lots of times . For real in my work luckily only once did it do permanent damage.
Totally agree not correctly applied, I have used this twice to end confrontations works very well. And standing arm lock applied well can easily be used to progress to gron holds such as waki gatame
Actually, the very standing armbar you are showing at the start is usually used in judo to bring your opponent to the ground and get a submission there without tearing down so many arms... :) You have nice examples on the "Komlock" channel (ne-waza expert judoka) if you click on videos and then scroll until a 3 years back video entitled " - judo ude gatame - " (with some Japanese characters before in the title). A similar armbar (waki gatame) can be finished in a standing position by putting your thigh in front of your opponent head (standing slightly in front and parallel with him/her). Your thigh then just acts as the ground does in any ne-waza armbar, the opponent cannot go further down and is able to tap when you apply the pressure on the elbow. With another one (ude garami with arm on the back - kind of a "police" armlock) it is up to your opponent whether he/she wants to still have two arms at the end of the day or not. In that case, it's mostly opponent's resistance that may lead to an injury.
OK, I was taught at an early age Chin Na/Kum Na, that - every lock is a break. The only reason you lock and submit a partner was in training, where you don't wish to hurt your partner...and you both wish to be able to train again tomorrow. Therefore the force would be applied with speed...and through the direction of the break. Just like on the ground, the persons structure must be broken and controlled also, which this guy didn't appear to demonstrate at all. Basically speaking, there are six directions of motion/movement...the ground, can take away one of those directions (down) so it is often easier to apply a lock/break,submission on the ground...Only sayin'.
This would be more convincing if you actually knew how to apply a standing armbar. Your application showed critical, fundamental mistakes, like not pinning the hand to your chest, not locking the wrist, and using your armpit to apply the lock rather than your elbow. And I suspect you have no clue about direction of pressure, which is necessary to keep the opponent from bending his arm. Lastly, if he does indeed bend his arm and get out of the armbar, that's an anticipated contingency. We train for that and we're prepared to flow instantly into another lock, or into strikes. If I were to do a video showing why some BJJ technique does not work, while my application of the technique was poor and unstudied, I would be widely ridiculed, and rightly so.
For the last 20yrs we've been listening to these same wankers tell us how wristlocks and leglocks dont work, now if you dont have wristlocks and leglocks you're not even in the competition and just adding those two elements is changing the whole game making old timers black belts essentially worthless
Not a big deal to succeed in an arm lock while standing. Control the hand, tip your body weight to the side you take the hand too, apply massive pressure, break the arm, do it fast so he can't counter good enough, even if he tries. And those are the five steps, to a good standing arm lock. And dear Stephen, I trained Vale Tudo as my 1st art, very close to BJJ, so I get the idea. But what do you do, when you have an opponent, who doesn't give you a chance to take him to the ground? Can you adjust to the situation of fighting while standing? Or are you too much in love with BJJ, not mind flexible? Because it seems, you are not too comfortable, with fighting not on the floor.
Mike Tyson and John Jones use a standing arm lock to damage their opponents a lot! Tyson did it in the fight against Francois Botha, and John Jones did it in the fight against Glover texira
I agree the way some people teach it and the way a lot of martial artists would try to apply it might not work on a skilled attacker. However if you are well rounded and understand the different ranges of combatAND train realistically then it can definitely work. Check out Shinya Aoki applying it here. Always like your content and have learnt a lot from your videos! Much appreciated as always! ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-E5vTigEoBnk.html
C est ça tous va bien super le travail au corps et la d un coup le Leck il te sort un couteau de sa poche avec sa main libre et tu regrette l idée d avoir fait de la self
You have to understand the principles of arm locks. Yes it takes a lot of practice, but you dont understand the technique. Especially if you first step into him to control the arm.
Stephen with due respect... I follow you quite a lot and I loved your stuff..but I think you are approaching this armlocks wrong. When taught properly, their is certain ways you apply these techniques, example proper posture, using tai-sabaki movements, the setups etc. When taught properly you can break, submit or throw with the arm locks
Standing armlocks work just fine, but they are not control techniques, they are joint destructions that need to be applied ballistically for them to work - the same is true of just about every joint lock in Japanese Ju-Jitsu and Aikido. The trick is training them safely while mentally preparing to wreck people.
No arm locks in old japanese....standing should = breaking. Only a lock in training to not hurt training partner.....to my understanding under the art I study. Also, your standing footwork was not condusive to show a good technique. Like If I showed a crapy ground arm-bar and THEN showed "Why it would never work" I'd also be right. P.S. I like a lot of your other videos :)
Stephan with respect before you analize this you need to learn with a good teacher and in a true system how to apply correctly the locks standing before you analize them thank you
I'm surprisingly impressed, he made some very valid points. I think it should be mentioned how the Waki Gatame/Fujiwara Armbar/Armpit Amrbar/ whatever you call it is illegal in MMA and I understand Ju Jitsu AND Judo for exactly the reasons he mentions.
these are techniques used in real time by the Samurai..the current generation is one that does not respect knowledge in its proper context....why Stephan,why..
Ridiculous statement. They work if you apply them correctly, arm locks are generally done in addition to a strike. One of the arm locks you "demonstrated" would/could have had a collarbone break just before you apply.
True, they don't work in BJJ competitions. Kata shows the lock as the end of the technique. They omit the follow up grab your blade and stabbing them. Old school jujutsu. It isn't shown because it's expected that you, the student, would understand this. Samurai carried blades as they were the most common told of their trade.
