Thanks for watching! It was challenging to find the balance of entertainment and education. I had to cut out a lot of to avoid putting everyone to sleep! Questions? Put them below and I will try my best to answer.
Yes we need an uncut edition! With producer’s comments. Keep this one for the neophytes 😂. This original video will get looked at thousands more times as people well into the future seeking out #steelisreal videos see it
Explained like a pro! My favorite statement in the video is, "when steel goes past its yield strength it bends, it does not fracture...this means you do not need to overbuild a steel bike to ensure it is safe to ride, instead you can focus on ride quality." Exactly!
As an engineering instructor, I think you did a great presentation of the topic. Makes want to purchase on of your bikes, because you know what's going on in a design.
this stupid myth has simply taken root in the brains of ignorant people - of course you can build a wing for an Airbus A380 out of aluminum and the wing flexes many meters - millions of times - so what is the point of this silly saying ? from someone who obviously has no idea about the subject but just repeats what others have said at some time ?
@@silverback3633this stupid myth has simply taken root in the brains of ignorant people - of course you can build a wing for an Airbus A380 out of aluminum and the wing flexes many meters - millions of times - so what is the point of this silly saying ? from someone who obviously has no idea about the subject but just repeats what others have said at some time ?
@@bertkreft9689 I am asking as a layman. Wing is not one solid piece of aluminium, it's more like a composite, isn't it? So saying that you cannot make a spring out of aluminium is true. Am I right?
Almost passed this vid up when I saw the title. After seeing the subject and "steel is real" phrase come up for like 30 years, it's gotten a bit tired for me. But, I hovered over the thumbnail a bit and saw the tech charts pop up, so I decided to watch. Great vid! Really enjoyed the tech bits and forming footage, and was glad it wasn't another "steel has a heart and a soul and a warmth and buttery smoothness" vid. Well done, and I was not aware that True Temper had resumed with Fairing.....cool. Good to see your relationship grow with them.
Thanks for helping me understand a comment I heard from bike enthusiasts about “flexiness” in their bike frames. It stuck with me all these years and I never understood what they were talking about until today! 😊
Wow! As a former engineer and everlasting bike nerd, this was fantastic to watch! I did not know how in depth Neuhaus was with their design, and really appreciate the attention to detail! Also super well communicated video!
Really wish more people could explain this as well as you did. Some people think of its not carbon its not worth riding. My Hummingbird is my favorite bike.
I think the main takeaway from this video is Steel allows framebuilders to make bikes that are not going to fail catastrophically and kill someone… they bend before they break - unlike carbon.
@@davidmarsden7103 thanks! I filmed and voiced over a segment on “damping” properties of steel (it has none) but it didn’t make the final edit. Another myth of steel
Thank and you for that very clear explanation. I have ridden vintage Ti bikes, modern Ti, carbon, aluminum, plain gauge steel and Soma's execution of Tange Prestige. I was never overly impressed with the ride quality of the steel bikes. For some reason my 1973 Raleigh Competition in 531 has this unreal quality that I can only describe as springy and almost floats over chatter. I truly now know why "steel is real". Cheers!
Great video. I'm still riding a 1994 Diamond Back Axis ,nickel plated XT version, here in the UK. TRUE TEMPER TT LITE tubing, set up as a fully rigid single speed. Love it. Better now I'm a bit heavier and pre loading the frame a bit more in my mid 50's.
Ay my dude! I'm riding a 1990 Diamondback Apex, down under in New Zealand. Good old Deore DX spec. Actually blew me away how nice it is to ride over rough stuff with no suspension to speak of. Not to mention it feels like it could take anything I'm liable to throw at it, short of throwing it off a cliff. Which I never would cos I love it!
I rode around a Diamondback Topanga with a black and white splatter paint job. Those 90's diamondbacks were killer! The True Temper Axis must be really nice.
That was nothing short of fascinating, well presented and obviously factual. As a bike mechanic focusing on steel bike builds i have struggled to explain why steel is a great material for bike frames. This helps a lot. Yield strength, elastic and plastic deformation will be my new key words to help describe why steel framers are awsome. thankyou.
This is one of the best explainations of stress-strain curves, I and youngs modulus. I'm going to share with my ME and materials friends at work, where do a lot with Aluminium and Ti.
A good tube is nice but it wont make up for bad design. Design and quality manufacturing is more important than the materials used. Good video keep it up!
One of the best bike geek videos I've ever watched! Really enjoyed how you decoded and conceptualized many of the terms we all throw around when talking bikes. I ride steel, aluminum and titanium frames and have tried to understand why they ride differently without leaning into generalizations. This is the knowledge I've been looking for!
This was fantastic. I’m a student studying mechanical engineering and have fabricated a couple steel frames in the past 2 years and I definitely want to start making more frequently. This video tickled my brain perfectly as it answered questions that I didn’t quite know how to ask. Thanks! Would love to hear more about the process behind getting the tubes shaped from blanks into the simple pieces of art with all their curves and butts lol
Hi Isaac, as a mechanical engineering student myself I'd love to ask you a couple of questions about your frame fabrication. First of all, probably the most obvious, where did you learn how to do it, both theoretically (geometries, I guess) and practically (the cutting and soldering part)? The second one is: what kind of tools do you use and what would be their price? The third one is about the tubing supplier and the final price of the frame build. I hope to hear you soon, Claudio from Italy
Bravo! That was awesome bike nerd science! I learned a ton of detail and understanding of what I had a vague knowledge of before….and so clearly explained, outstanding 10/10 video! And thanks for sharing Fairlight tubing, yay for another US manufacturer of velo spec tubing I wasn’t aware of! I already have more bikes than I have fingers…but this video convinced me I need to start saving/ sell/ make room for a Neuhaus, to support your outstanding work! Thank you Daniel, please keep making these type of bike science nerd videos and awesome bikes!
Awesome video; thanks for sharing this information. I'm a big fan of Neuhaus, and I've been slowly learning frame building, so this type of information is enormously useful.
great video Daniel! definitely my favorite that's been made about this subject. I really liked how you presented your point from an engineering perspective first, and then followed that up with how it impacts riding and fabrication. the constantly changing scenery, with the interview and bench testing stiffness, was also really interesting and informative.
That was a really great video. I started riding mtb 35 years ago and steel was the only option available. Aluminum came but it always felt that marketing pushed it over steel without real debate. Thanks for the clarification. My first real mtb was a Sunn with Columbus steel frame. I loved it.
I studied materials engineering and I've learnt pretty interesting things about bike design considering the materials manufacturers have to work with thanks to this video. Steel is real indeed, real simple, cost effective, and by processing techniques like bending and heat treatment you can alter many aspects of the bike frame.
Oops, Composites are complex. Fibers by themselves are stiffer. When fibers are placed into epoxy and the total system is tested in the longitudinal direction, Uni directional Carbon Epoxy laminates will have stiffnesses similar to titanium. In a woven format the carbon epoxy laminate actually has a stiffness of 1/4 that of steel, however, woven carbon laminates are 1/5 the weight and therefore can be slightly stiffer in equal weight situations when loaded in the longitudinal direction. By equal area however, Carbon fiber is more compliant and absorbs vibrations and impacts The real highlight is Strength, where a Uni Directional Carbon epoxy laminate is roughly 10X the strength of steel. Therefore, a lighter weight object can be produced.
It would be interesting to manufacture a Fiberglass and or Kevlar Commuter bicycle where the bicycle is half the weight of steel, roughly the same strength of steel but absorbs impacts to create a smoother ride on the way to work without needing suspension.
@@CRITESBIKER for sure, I think composites are amazing and have huge potential. I Would love to make Carbon fiber bikes, but for the scale you need to be at, you need to prioritize money over innovation. It costs $60k to do a run of Carbon molds.
Bespoke,custom selected frame building has really advanced. When you think about how long frame building craftsmanship has been around and what advancements have been implemented over time it’s hard to deny that steel has a much richer history of development and design than any other frame material. As for any comparison to an assembly line mass production frame building bicycle design. It should be noted that those factory frames are designed for the masses and cannot be manufactured for everyone’s preferences so will inevitably be produced to be strong enough to avoid any warranty issues of a fat kid jumping off his roof. I truly enjoy this content and look forward to hearing about how you “tune” your frame tubing selection based on a riders weight and needs.
Steel is real, but not all steel is real. Hence the difference between ride quality of the Neuhaus and Honzo. Glad you explained the reason behind butting and how tube diameter affects stiffness.
another opportunity to request a piece on how frames and forks are designed and tested to be compliant with applicable requirements (i.e. CFR Part 1512.) I assume for the most part these regulations are not applicable for bikes falling under the category of "one-of-a-kind" bicycle. At the same time I'm curious why we don't see more bikes fitted with chain guards and derailleur guards as these requirements would seem to apply to a lot of production bicycles.
I will believe in the unique ride quality of X material or tubing when I see it pass a blind test with statistical significance. The only such test I have ever seen was from a magazine in the eighties where the very experience editor of the magazine was unable to tell different types of tubing apart. Not a definitive test by any means, but it does suggest that placebo may be at play. If there was a measurable difference, we would have seen blind tests by now rather than audiophile-quality subjective assessments.
Haven't scanned all the comments yet, wonder if you'll get pushback on the 'claim' that the elastic modulus is constant for all steels (OK not exactly constant but close enough). I put 'claim' in scare-quotes as a joke because it seems to blow some people's minds. Even Reynolds, in their marketing sheet for 753 in the '70s - early '80s, said the heat-treat made the steel stiffer. Of course the Reynolds engineers facepalmed when they saw that, they knew better. But people keep saying it to this day. Thanks for this vid, so clear and so correct. Oooh, my up-thumb was number 531!!!! Nice!
Haha yup! This was a big myth I wanted to bust. Even if it’s a placebo effect, it still works. Just goes to show how complex our human preconceptions are.
Thank you Daniel I learned a few things. Trivia: What famous steel bike frame had *NO TOP TUBE and NO LEFT SIDE CHAIN STAY* answer below. The EV Warrior. The EV Warrior was a masterpiece of engineering ... with some quirks & fails. If you ever get a chance to ride one you should. The definition of plastic deformation lives strong in the massive oval tube that is trying to do the work of 2 tubes on a hundred pounds bike. In fully restored condition they will do killer wheelies and rip across the intersection before the cars even knew the light changed. Tons of toys & goodies like a real VIN number and title, sequential turn signals in the mirrors. Did I mention dual motors, two high quality (read heavy) sealed lead acid batteries, horn, headlight, Curtis controller and much more. I have owned several and just lost two last October 28 when the neighbor's tire fire turned my shop to ashes. Anyway, check some pictures, a frame engineers nightmare. Note: Only early production bikes had no left side chain stay as that was clearly a stupid decision.
@Daniel_Yang_ARTEFACT It's like 'how could a bike frame possibly not have a chain stay'. And the single tube to the head was huge and oval but that thing would twist and flex like crazy. Thanks for a great video.
Nice overview. Reminds me of Engineering 3 at UC Davis. I'm surprised that you didn't talk about Aluminum. And by AL, I don't mean 1st gen Cannondale or Klein frames, but more recent AL frames where tube wall thickness and profile tuning are more advanced. I realize that AL frames are used primarily in low-end bikes - obviously the cost of the material and frame construction is less. I had an Specialized Allez with hydro formed tubes that I thought was no more rigid than my carbon race bike. WRT to steel, I've read way too many bike media articles about the magical springiness of steel vs the rigidity of AL frames. Honestly, my Paramount, with its steel fork rides a little harshly. And one or two engineering oriented articles that I've read seem to debunk frame compliance as a thing. In my own experience, the compliance of my gravel and mountain bikes seems to come mostly from tires or suspension and maybe from the seatpost. Where do I have this wrong?
Its a good point. I love all the new generation of well design aluminum frames. I felt I didn't have enough expertise to comment on it. The development cost of those aluminum bikes are probably more than carbon fiber. That is why only the big players like Specialized and Trek have the resources to invest in it. Still very important, because it brings high quality, well designed bikes down to a lower price point. There is definitely differences in compliance between frames. We do a lot of back to back testing (same components, different butting) and you can notice a difference. I believe the misunderstanding is that the majority compliance is torsional. There is no vertical compliance except from your fork and your seatpost.
@@Daniel_Yang_ARTEFACT Good video. I have a specific question regarding this. I was an early adopter of late 80's Alu mtb frames from Cannondale/ Klein etc... back then it seemed to be regarded that frames had to be made very stiff to prevent early fatiguing being an issue, hence the big jump in tube diameters and aesthetic from the steel norm. Those frames were ace for their time for racing, but felt a bit too stiff for comfort. Jump to today and we have some good modern Alu options from the big brands, or brands such as Mason, which have a reputation as not having that harshness of early ALu frames - these look a tempting option in todays market for cost to performance, and tempted to move away from carbon for offroad. My question is, does this compliance built in to a modern Alu frame come at the expense of a predicted shortened service life owing to the tube flex causing micro fatigue, or do you think they're doing something with tube forming/ joining to mitigate that?... or as you say, maybe the perception of comfort in these bikes is coming from tyres, wheels, components...
I heard theory and it sounds very plausible that "springiness" of steel frame comes from its weight. As it is heavier than aluminium or carbon, it tries to stay in place when wheel hit some bump (allowing tire and spokes and suspension if there is one to do its job of deforming enough to "eat" this obstacle), leading to much smoother ride! That means, cheap steel bikes (no butting leading to extra weight) are more springy while lightweight state-of-the-art steel frames feel almost the same as aluminium!
@@Daniel_Yang_ARTEFACT Hey Daniel, the notion of torsional compliance makes sense to me. Where I see that coming into play is when standing and pedaling over bumps, ruts, roots etc. and having the bottom bracket move torsionally.
An English mtb magazine did tests on different metals used in frames one of the tests was endurance and there titanium won by far when they stopped the tests after 400,000 cycles there was no wear at all cr-mo gave up after 140,000 cycles and aluminum 5000 cycles. As a description of how long a steel frame lasted, the newspaper writes that you can let several generations inherit the frame without being worried. Of course you can break anything, even a titanium frame.
Keep it up! Even if you don't use the technical knowledge in the future, engineering is a mindset, not a set of numbers. It a solid base for the future!
I read that steel is the most environmentally friendly frame material due to energy used to manufacture, recyclability and repairability. Then alu, then titanium then carbon fibre
While that may be true, the most sustainable thing is to not manufacture a new bike. I know that is hypocritical to say as a frame builder, but I try to make bikes timeless and repairable. If your bike needs to be recycled because it is no longer cool, your designer already screwed up!
@@hockysa good point. Titanium is halfway between steel and aluminum in terms of stiffness. However it’s much harder to form titanium tubes. Aluminum is much cheaper and easier to form than titanium.
Thank you for all of this interesting and informative video! I just watched the Bike Sauce video. I am curious if you were NOT surprised by his findings? Did you design the frame to optimize lateral compliance? I live in Mexico City and I'm thinking of having a custom steel bike made by a builder in Colombia. I am wondering how to discuss this topic with them. Thank you!
The Honzo toptube and seat stays were larger diameter, that’s why the hummingbird is more compliant. But I think the bigger difference between the two bikes is geometry. The hummingbird has more weight on its front wheel, so more bumps are eaten up by the fork. For our ML frame we use a 28.6 toptube and 38.1 downtube, that’s a good baseline.
steel is a great material for frame builders who weld and solder themselves - to tailor a bike to the customer and create individual designs - you can also build a soft frame from other materials - that's definitely not the point - it's great that the Taiwanese offer such a huge portfolio of tubes
Good question. Carbon does not degrade over time, this is totally a bike myth. The reality is that bike die simply because they go out of style, not because they catastrophically explode. That is my only complaint with carbon bikes, they are trendy and hard to repair. There are exceptions, like the Specialized Aethos and Crux.
As someone who's done DH + mtb trials for 25yrs the steel option was never there ! You could get a bmx or a Pashley or Dmr street frame outta 4130 , but all top tier trials + dh frames were 6061 or 7075 7005 aluminium , loads of lads wanted a bomb proof long travel steel dh bike but nobody made them .
Aggressively writing 'steel is real' all over the internet is one of many ways old people cope with fear of the unknown and the uncomfortable feeling that something they don't understand is replacing something they have nostalgic memories of. Nice vid tho
Agreed. For me, the innovation is the biggest strength of steel, which is the opposite of nostalgia (although that never hurts). People have started entire new genres of riding with steel. The amount of capital it takes to make aluminum and carbon fiber frames is 100x more, which is why no one wants to take risks to innovate.
@@Daniel_Yang_ARTEFACT that makes complete sense. Steel is an obvious choice for a custom frame builder on the smallest scale. Although as a rider I prefer titanium, I'm not sure how much more expensive and complicated it is to make a single frame.
Steel is less damaging to the environment than titanium and carbon (the manufacturing process I mean). A well designed steel bike can be less fatiguing to ride long distances too. I’ve just gone back to a steel bike frame (Ritchey) and couldn’t be happier with it. 💯 feel less Fcked after a super long ride.
Really appreciate all the amazing info you're sharing about frame building. As a hobby builder, I've found it's really helped me to develop my skills and understanding!
Learned lots of bike nerd stuff and I feel like I should prioritize durable things. People don't have money to give away. Bike should be durable, simple and reliable for the mass
