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Why the active balancer only works at higher voltage of your battery.

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I'm too impatient! I had top balanced my battery pack manually again by charging and discharging individual cells. The result was OK. Will the balancer actually work at this higher voltage now and keep the cells in line?
For this test, I set the solar charge controllers to the default Victron LiFePO4 profile (3.55V/cell) and observed the capabilities of the balancer.
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6 сен 2024

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Комментарии : 110

@brantgoose 2 года назад

I like how I keep making separate searches for things and finding different videos of yours.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 года назад

Hahaha, that is great. Good to know Google is finally catching up. No need to go anywhere else 😂

@philbrooke-little7082 3 года назад

In your setup you can actually solve the single relay cut off problem quite easily: you just use a big diode across the relay contacts such that the battery can be discharged via it when the relay is open but it won’t be able to charge. It will knock about a volt off but that won’t matter as lithium voltage is higher than lead acid and your gubbins won’t mind it. You will lose the low voltage disconnect however you can set that in the inverter and still be protected. I regard 12v in the lithium as discharged as it’s about 10%, the diode knocks that down to 11 so you could set inverter low voltage cutoff to 11v and that will be above the BMS cut off so it won’t cut off the charge or any of that sort of muppetry. The relay will only be open briefly for the time it takes your loads to bring the battery down to the reconnect level. I actually use 95% as the auto reconnect or a discharge current of more than a preset amount.

@bigbeef2654 3 года назад

Try putting 3 or 4 (5 watt) 3.6V zener diodes across cell 16. Remember Zener diodes are reverse bias. Once the diodes turn on above 3.6V, you should dump around 5 amps through them with 4 of them in parallel.

@aprilsteel9466 3 года назад

On the active balancer ,usually the thing does not kick in until there is a 100 millivolt difference between one cell and another. If a battery is under a charge as you do it of 20 amps how will you notice if it does anything? You won't so what you are saying is wrong again. It works all the time but you will not notice until you stop charging. Your cells have been to 3.65v before I presume so you must not go there again or you damage the SEI layer in the cell. Stay at 3.5 volts or less . You yourself said it makes very little difference in the state of charge . A few percent and you abuse your battery to get there.

@monsieurd.6890 3 года назад

The solution is to charge at very high voltage (3.65) and very low amperage (less than the balancer can balance) to let the balancer make is job. For a long time. In fact unbalanced cells explain that it is difficult to measure how much the battery is charged. We measure only the 100% of the most charged cells. With other cells perhaps far from being full.

@dannyjensen4954 3 года назад

Thanks so much for your videos and all your great testing. I appreciate the time and humor to add. You have saved me so much time my keeping up with all the new low cost hardware. I really love the way you present very technical topics in a simplified manner so I can understand the importance of the basics.

@seanathanq 3 года назад

I have been reading good things about Seplos, they have a 48v 100a BMS that has the ability to connect with Victron

@pederb82 3 года назад

I would like to see you leave it for a few cycles with the recomended settings from Victron. These guys know what they are doing - I promise you. :) leave it to absorb a couple of hours so the balancer can work at every charge. You changing back from the recomended settings make it so that we don’t have a proven state of the system actually working in this design. Then you can try fiddling with setting step by step until it stops working reliably. We humans sure are different and work toward a solution in different ways. Fascinating.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 3 года назад

Yeah, I can do that and see how it goes over time. I've got the suspicion, that the balancer actually causes the imbalance because its permanently connected. If I don't fully charge for days or even weeks, it still balances and causes and uneven voltage once the battery gets close to full again. It then needs to revers that balancing again what it did in the past. It should only turn on if necessary or 3.5V or above maybe.

@magicmanspaz 3 года назад

@@OffGridGarageAustralia I have wondered the same on these active balancers. I top balance my cells perfect and the bms so far on a couple battery banks has kept them within 0.010v but then if i don't get much solar for a few days or weeks and my bank is around 50% soc then an active balancer may be then be bottom balancing to a point so then when i get to a high soc again or when fully charged the cells are then out of balance.

@mysterytechknowledge3664 3 года назад

@@OffGridGarageAustralia I have one of those balancers (4s) that I use with my Headway batteries. Something that I noticed is that when charging the pack and monitoring the cell voltages, the balancer will "artificially" increase the cell voltages that are low (and vice-versa) when it is actively balancing. This makes it hard to accurately monitor voltages unless you turn off the balancer. In my case it's easy for me to unplug the single 4s cable. However, you may want to solder a switch and some wires onto the balancer. (inplace of the solder blob that is there.) It would be Very interesting to see what the ACTUAL voltages of your batteries are when charging.

@76queen 3 года назад

Andy have the balancer only turn on when you are approaching 96-98% SOC

3 года назад

The same thing happens with my batteries. Most will be at 3,350v but as charging continues one cell continues to charge and comes over 3,600v and the others even drop from 3,350 to 3,330v This starts to happen when the same saturation voltage stands for a long time. Does this rapidly growing cell have the least capacity?This is frustrating. 🙈

@RJ-cc1fz 3 года назад

If the title is a question, it’s because during the flat part of a voltage curve the volts of the cells can be really close but the capacity of each cell can vary a lot at the flat part. That’s why balancing should be done at the steeper part of the voltage curve. The capacity of each cell is much closer at the steeper part of the voltage curve.

@stevegorkowski3246 2 года назад

I run lto cells and that balancer. LTO cells voltage will change more that other types. Charging at high currents the balancer can't keep up. I am talking charging at 1-5s. The problem with using this balancer is as you go lower the balance current is well under 1 amp. This makes cells go over voltage.

@rcinfla9017 3 года назад

For this cap transfer balancer there are two things that happen with lower cell voltage. First is the amount of transfer charge put in caps is less because voltage is lower to charge the caps. Second is the switching MOSFET's resistance goes up a bit because their gate drive voltage is lower. Both lower the net current transfer at lower cell voltages. Some models have a small boost DC-DC converter that provide a consistant gate voltage drive. The balancer's cell voltage comparison is also more likely to be corrupted by external charging or inverter current in the flatter voltage portion of battery state of charge so it misfires occasionally pumping charge transfer in wrong direction.

@diydsolar 3 года назад

We have never same chemistry, same batteries, same errors in measurement (an 0.5% of error is .... 18mV !!!, imagine error value with -0.5% and 0.5% in other cell at high voltages. Or imagine 1%), same error at every single temperature or voltage, same torques, ... it is very difficult to have same SOCs, but you are doing a good job. Too much factors, isn't it? Thanks a lot Andy.

@asificam1 5 месяцев назад

Consider testing against some of the inductive balancers. I suspect the flying capacitor units are able to get better balance, but they might be able to deliver higher current as the voltage difference gets smaller... though they do stop balancing pretty early (or at least mine does, but it's close enough for a 3s Lithium ion).

@76queen 3 года назад

Balancer will only make use of higher currents when there is higher voltage differences between cells. When providing a higher voltage/ charge from an external source you are providing that difference hence the higher rate of current being used by the balancer. Great videos Andy. How much power does your Tesla usually consume from your off Grid garage per kilometre?

@ericklein5097 Год назад

How does a charge current....that is equally distributed among the cells....creating a voltage difference amongst the cell?

@simplifythings800 3 года назад

i have been using BMS, 5amp active balancer and super capacitor to normalize sudden surge of current when using inductive loads, my lifepo4 setup is 4 years now, and still good and running.

@evil17 2 года назад

Sounds good & simple, I do a similar thing to this usually. I’m Playing with some all in one systems atm, 24v 2.4kw & 48v 5Kw & have a heap of large Maxwell Caps, 48v & 16v strings I am using. Q) what size caps you using? What size battery bank? Inverter? Any solar? I am curious about any experiments or positive things you have noticed with the extra caps in the system. I have been thinking that I could get creative and hook a seperate balancer up to the caps to keep them at a bit higher charge right at the inverter input, higher than the battery supply voltage but below over volt protection of inverter with t-class protection, and keep extra bursting power available right at the inverter. With an all in one I can up the output voltage to a 64v Capacitor bank & probly dont need a balancer anyhow. I hope I haven’t bored ya! Does anyone have anything they would like to add/mention about this idea ? Good or bad?

@PhilippeCJR Год назад

Is 3.50v not the optimal maximum charge voltage per cell if you like to have the most of lifespan of the battery?

@oz93666 2 года назад

One way to optimize battery would be first to accurately bottom balance. Then charge , the cell which goes high first is under capacity, increase the capacity of this cell by adding to it ,in parallel another small cell ...It's about getting the capacity of each cell block very close. Battery is limited by the capacity of the lowest cell.

@xr680r 3 года назад

Well, because of your great testing and the gleaned information, I started looking into how the Active Equalizing Balancer works. So, far it appears to use 70 G045N03 directional current switching MOSFET with a current dispensation of 52 watts each in groups of four with the use of three capacitors. Regulated by what I think is some kind of voltage 555 type chip. I haven't got much further then that and its only a guess at this point.. So, this is what would make sense that that chip is set ate voltage you have described. If I get real worked up about it I'll test it. But, from what I think I know, I may just apply what you have done in this test once a month or so for a couple of days and the reset back to a lower voltage bulk charge. Anyways this information sure made it more fun to think about it all.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 3 года назад

Thank you. That is great feedback. I'll look into it more as well. I have ordered some inductive balancers to compare...

@76queen 3 года назад

Xr680f I think the last bit of your response, regarding balancing and resetting charge levels as maintenance procedure is the way to go!

@spicethewolf8694 3 года назад

A good question to ask yourself is can you just stack the active balancers? it would be easy enough to make a pcb with some connectors or just use bus bars to parallel the balancers for a higher balance current. this would make the balancer more aggressive for these larger size cells. I feel that these balancers were only designed for 100ah cells and lower charge currents that would go with them

@launacorp 3 года назад

I think that too. The balancing current is way to small for this huge cells. And yes, you can parallel these balancers to provide more balancing current. Also you can load the cells to a higher voltage to get more in the upper part of the voltage curve to get more difference in voltage and therefore more balancing current out of these balancers. Also you can reduce the charge current so that the % of charge current to balancing current is better.

@launacorp 3 года назад

Absolutely great video. Thank you! I am planning to build a battery with such a Balancer but 100Ah Cells and only 24V. I don't have such high charge current as you have, but I am really thinking it's perhaps a good idea to buy a second balancer for my pack to get enough balancing current 🤔

@SkypowerwithKarl 3 года назад

Try turning the BMS balancing function off or set the start balance voltage higher than your absorption voltage so it can’t turn on. Let the active balancer handle that job alone. Balancers stop balancing, look at voltage and continue as needed. Two balancers on at the same time may be interfering with each other. Of course keep all other safety functions active on the BMS.

@martehoudesheldt5885 3 года назад

ever thought about talking to someone with raspberry pi super smarts about setting up a unit that will monitor , heavy discharge/charge single cells thru relays or ssr and load or charger as needed?

@evil17 2 года назад

Great channel and content Andy.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 года назад

Thank you, Evan!

@BajanAlan 3 года назад

At around 2.44v cell 6 of my 8s 300ah battery shoots up in voltage. The Batrium does not discharge fast enough, so I added a 3s 5a balancer to the high cell and the 2 lowest cells, this helps but is still not enough! I am now adding another resistive balancer to it and have ordered more 5a balancers!

@immrnoidall 3 года назад

let us know. I was thinking the same thing. I hate when one cell just ruins it for the rest of us.

@BajanAlan 3 года назад

@@immrnoidall Try it. I seems to work. Have not had a rn away for 2 days

@DanBurgaud 2 года назад

8:54 THIS is what i have been telling some folks... BMS without a communication to Inverter/Charger will disconnect the batteries from the Charger/Inverter when one of the triggers is reached (too high voltage, too low voltage, too high current charge/discharge, too high single cell voltage, too low single cell voltage). But they keep saying it does not because their inverter/charger is still running. FACE PALM! I said, BMS does not turn off the inverter; it disconnects the battery to the inverter and their inverter is now in battery-less mode.

@dumfriesgalloway7499 Год назад

Ok maybe a daft question. When do we actually turn off the active balancer.

@OffGridGarageAustralia Год назад

Because is also balances in the flat area of the curve with LiFePO4 which causes an imbalance across the cells. Once you fully charge again, the balancer may not be able to balance that out again. You would then think it does not work or your battery has an issue. I have made several tests with different batteries here on the channel showing that.

@dumfriesgalloway7499 Год назад

@@OffGridGarageAustralia Thank you

@HighTower0907 3 года назад

Hello Andy, please check the resistance between the busbar and the cable shoe from the BMS and the balancere. I had 20 ohm on it at one cell, ( I use the same 280 Ah cells ), and this is a big problem wenn the BMS gets no correct value. I changed the sequence , that the cable shoe is directly on the busbar. I thing in my case the V2a washer was the problem. My english is not that good ,sorry . With best regards Guido

@OffGridGarageAustralia 3 года назад

Thanks for the tip!

@michaelwood3825 2 года назад

Is there a manufacturing quality difference between the Heltec and the Hankzor generic? I need these in my particular setup.

@OffGridGarageAustralia 2 года назад

They are 100% the same the same hardware and function, just the Heltec balancer has the printing on the PCB....

@michaelwood3825 2 года назад

Thanks Andy. I love the channel by the way. You’re entertaining and I wish you were a neighbour lol from Michael @ West Coast NZ

@dankarau2307 3 года назад

Love your videos! With as many cells as you will have in the near future, the huge advantage of batrium is monitoring them all with only one "BMS". As for the cost...hey you can't take to with you...might as well spend it all!!!

@OffGridGarageAustralia 3 года назад

Batrium got in contact with me already and we're talking...😉

@dreupen 3 года назад

Andy, how about using 2 ballancers in parallel?

@jmaus2k 3 года назад

Great idea to communicate with charge controllers to lower current. But you don't need to do that. Just add a resistor in between batteries and charge controller. So use a separate port BMS and put a 30 ohm resistor across the charger/battery port so when the relay is off the charge controller will hit max voltage with just 1 amp or less. Another point is that when that relay opens and closes it has a huge inrush to the inverter capacitors. Adding a resistor across it will help it stay precharged. But you need the inverter to be separate from the charge controller for this to work - in orther words separate port bms relays.

@uhjyuff2095 3 года назад

What about the resistor when the battery is at low voltage disconnect?

@jmaus2k 3 года назад

@@uhjyuff2095 Adding a resistor on the discharge doesn't do much for balancing since the BMS doesn't have a way to balance from the bottom. It can only shunt 0.1 to 1A at the top voltage. But having a resistor there can precharge the inverter capacitors.

@mfgxl 3 года назад

I checked on the HANKZOR Active Equalizer Balancer and it states: "Equilibrium current 0-5.5A, the more balanced the battery, the smaller the current", and that is why you are not getting many amps out of the balancer when voltages are close, not by voltage of battery bank.

@mfgxl 3 года назад

Andy, do you think hooking up two or three of the HANKZOR Active Equalizer Balancer would work with the QUCC without the runaway situation? Since you now have two of them can you see if the pack would work better. I don't want to get a Daly, and I don't want to spend $600 on a balancer, so I am trying to figure out the best value set up, as I am sure most of your Subscribers do. I want to keep my cells in the 3.23-3.32 volt range.

@uhjyuff2095 3 года назад

You still need a BMS at a minimum, period.

@johnbennett740 3 года назад

To balance fault due to variation in each cell at different voltage levels.Suggest to correct use smaller cells or.parallel cells 2 or 3 * S 16 which would average the variation same as Tesla battery.

@timdarnell7695 3 года назад

Love your channel!

@whatmust8146 11 месяцев назад

What is that app. that you use on your phone to monitor the whole system? Is that from the bms?

@OffGridGarageAustralia 11 месяцев назад

There is an app for the BMS and I also use Victron VRM.

@muddy11111 3 года назад

The mosfet version of the QUCC BMS works well. On cell high voltage it simply disconnects the charge circuit, the output remains on. Setting the "balance on charge" to off allows it to balance while the charge circuit is disconnected. I appreciate the maximum current on the BMS is only 120A, but this should not be a problem as it still gives you 5000VA. When the second battery is installed you will have double that to play with, how much do you need ?

@js72634 Год назад

I can't remember if this was if this video or another one of off-grid garages active balancer test videos.. but at one point he has a board with four bulbs in it that he uses to drain individual cells. Can anyone give pointers on how to do this? A regular house bulb doesn't have terminals... I've heard a car headlight might work but it looks like he's using something else. Just curious of all options Edit: ah! It was this video. They look like car headlights....? Does anybody know the details of building something like this? Do you need to worry about polarity on the bulbs? In series on the board? Polarity on bulbs needs to match the battery cell?

@sebbonnaire2000 3 года назад

Hi Andy. At first, thank you so much for your videos. I’m always waiting to the next one. Here is my question : what if you double the balancer ? I mean, you parallel it with your spare one !? At best you lower the risk of battery disconnect… what do you think about it ?

@OffGridGarageAustralia 3 года назад

Thank you for your commend and kind words, Sebastien. That is correct, I could increase the balance power by paralleling them together. That would effectively roughly double the balance current. I have made the observation now that it is not necessary as the battery will balance over time. I haven't had fully charged the battery for a few weeks so there was quite a drift and the balancer could not keep up. Now, after several full discharges, the balancer has it under control again. I now charge to 3.45V only and rest there for 2h to give the balancer enough time to do its job. That seems to work.

@immrnoidall 3 года назад

what if we set chargers hi/low voltage,higher/ lower than bms cutoff voltages. I want to never need to "manually" do anything to cells of the battery bank.

@mitchrothermel8157 3 года назад

Wow I think adding an other chemistry like lithium ion using 14 cell @3.7 both of 16 cell lifepo4 have the same top and btm voltage limits but it will act as a buffer of fast voltage rise after 3.45 for the lifepo4 which would let the balancer do it’s job. This is my hybrid battery and no balancing 230 amp lithium ion (Chevy volt battery) and 200 amp lifepo4 with top charge up to 57.4 volts absolutely no problems. Ant 300 amp BMS with no BMS on the 3.7 cell battery max difference is .05 after 5 years

@GUGUGAMERYOUTUBER Год назад

Muito top

@dashley2525 Год назад

Any ideas on how to active balance 4 12 v lifepro4 batteries in series

@youtube7076 Год назад

would you be willing to conduct similar testing using a different active balancer? instead of using the one with capacitors can you show us how the one with inductors performs?

@rjadventure15 3 года назад

That capacitor type balancer is excellence performance, am using that also in my 24v system 😊

@SkypowerwithKarl 3 года назад

my Heltec balancer balancer works fine at any state of charge but it needs a little time to work it’s magic. Maybe Andy is impatient?

@Technoide1 3 года назад

Did you use 2 balancer, the from the BMS and the 2nd?

@OffGridGarageAustralia 3 года назад

The BMS balancer was turned off at first but I set it to kick in at a higher voltage. So if the active balancer struggles, the BMS balancer activates as well and assists to bleed off energy.

@Technoide1 3 года назад

@@OffGridGarageAustralia thank you for the information.

@markparish9072 3 года назад

Hi, Andy. currently enjoying your videos and will prowse plus various other van life videoes. Anyway I had a setup for camping with a 100Watt solar panel and dubious 240 v modified sine inverter wouldnt run AAA & AA charger..Have USB available and have found a EBL Charger upto 8 AAA & AA or 4C or D batts. Have tried tonight on AA & AAA batteries and seeems to do a goood job might even balance once one is fully charged however disconnected as was charging from a small solar power pack and fetching batteries out when fulll. Solar addictive! if I go above current setup need to consider earth when camping or keep at12volts? like what your doing for the community Might even do my first you tube vid on it over the weekend, but I have charged the batterries now. thinking about it never stopped you! time for a spat cheers

@houseofancients 3 года назад

seplos bms can do the same...

@DarkZoneV 3 года назад

Hi everyone... i was wondering how about connecting 2 bms's in parallel and set one to disconnect the charge and one to disconnect the load.... or is bad idea...?

@user-st8te4sb3i Год назад

That way Daly is batter than Yours BMS there are different keys for changing and discharging.

@chuxxsss 3 года назад

Hey Andy you made it to 13K subscribers congratulations mate. I need to get back to building these DIY BMS. The DIY one does use can bus mate too.

@DanBurgaud 2 года назад

10:30 Seplos is the most used BMS in most chinese battery packs. They communicate with most inverters out there... and if you have an incompatible inverter/charger, tell them and after a day, they will send you the firmware.

@ericklein5097 Год назад

It is far from the most commonly used BMS. The Pace BMS is widely used in server rack batteries, the JBD is widely used by the DIY community, Daly used to be popular, JK is popular with those that want a little more to play with. The Seplos BMS isn't bad but its quite expensive.

@DanBurgaud Год назад

@@ericklein5097 You are correct that Pace is the most used BMS on battery packs. I mistook the similarity and made wrong conclusion.

@wayne8113 3 года назад

Thanks Andy

@musicinspire1745 3 года назад

Will Prowse says in his videos that BMS's and balances are unnecessary once you have the batteries balanced from the start. Looks like he was wrong, huh?

@mysterytechknowledge3664 3 года назад

If the internal resistance and capacity of your batteries is "Well Matched", you can go quite a while between balancings. If there are substantial variances in the batteries, balancers and BMS's can help reduce manual maintenance of them.

@r.foshee1578 9 месяцев назад

Can you test these? Amazon no reviews and im having a issue with their capacity! Grade A 3.2V 310Ah LiFePO4 Battery Cells, Rechargeable Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery with Bus Bars and Srews, Automative Replacement LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery for Camper, Boat, Solar System... Brand: AVinol

@OffGridGarageAustralia 9 месяцев назад

Can't get them here in AU. I would be careful with no-name batteries, even if they are been sold on Amazon. We have some reliable sellers on my website: off-grid-garage.com/batteries/

@GertJvR 3 года назад

Been researching diybms it's a control board and a per cell monitor board, once a single cell reaches a pre defined setting the current is cut off to the cell

@frankz1125 3 года назад

You should be in absorb by 55.7v. The controller will back off and the bms will help

@uhjyuff2095 3 года назад

More balancers would make the voltage delta smaller and that is what we need.

@MrFransie85 Год назад

your cells have a different capacity, you need to capacity test each of them. and sort out the bad ones

@OffGridGarageAustralia Год назад

No, that's not what you do...

@newton833 3 года назад

Question: what happens with the excess energy you produce?

@olvano 3 года назад

yep set charger disconnect volts, let the balancer drains them till it reach ur set reconnect ,when doing that the balancer works alone .oh dump unused power to ur grid tie inverter with a relay.

@xr680r 3 года назад

Thanks, I need time of catching up. I won't have you relay hard disconnect.

@immrnoidall 3 года назад

and all of the sudden everything in the house shuts off. litium is so fun.

@SpeakerKevin 3 года назад

If you don't charge them every time to 3.55v, the pack will not stay balanced over time.

@oldglory9812 3 года назад

A balancer will not work properly if you set the battery voltage to less than 3.6 volts per cell.

@GoatZilla 3 года назад

In b4 lead-acid users come in and tell you that you're doing it wrong lol

@awesomusmaximus3766 3 года назад

I'm having mine so I can do everything from my living room or tablet

@offgridwanabe 3 года назад

No it does work if you are charging with 3.5 amps you are only charging 1 cell with .200 amps. but discharging with .4 amps so it does help. Anywhere from 3.4 to 3.1 the cells will be the same voltage therefore the balancer on auto balance will not work. Balancers do not work on capacity they work on voltage. With such low production you could only drive to the end of the driveway most solar setups are concentrated on Kwh production.

@markmoffitt7309 3 года назад

It seems you may need the higher current balancer as the only time the balance has a chance to raise or lower the voltage on such high capacity batteries is in the steep parts of the curve, i.e. at the lower end or higher end. In the middle, the curve is so flat the balancer can't charge/discharge enough to have much effect on the cell voltage to achieve balance. So, higher current on the top of curve may win the race to beat balance before the BMS for shuts down due to one high cell being out of range