Its fun to collect, it’s fun to save mid tier staples and trade up for an expensive card for ur favorite deck, its not fun when the rc tells u that there’s only one way to play and it’s theirs
I wish I remember where I read it, but there's a really good article somewhere that talks about this. The premise was that given the distribution of play pieces (reprint availability, card rarity, print run size, etc.) any player wanting to "keep up" in a format is forced to care about the economy of magic. If you're playing at an LGS, even if your goal is a goofy interaction, you need a minimum power concentration to not get pubstomped and Do The Thing. Almost no one (Hi Post Malone) wants to spend more than they have to in playing the game, but if they don't pay the "table tax" they're not allowed to have fun, so card value is important. Crack a Jeweled lotus? You can power up a deck (more table time = more fun), or trade it for other cards (more options = more fun). Losing that monetary value sucks (especially for artists + stores), but it's the functional loss of gameplay/trade power that's the quiet root of most frustrations. As a juxtaposition, I'm part of an MTG cubing group. Given the built-in balance and proxy acceptance of cubes, there's much less drama around decks/bans and more fun building and playing with that group. Cubing is one way to sidestep the game economy. (Gauntlet deck collections are another possibility).
I personally think this is a great thing for commander. A rebirth of its roots! You can still play the cards, you are just forced to rule zero them in the game (and maybe keep replacements if the group isn't okay with it) People have legit forgotten that commander started as a rule zero format, 100% just saying "screw the rules, we play our own way..." This could reenergize that core belief!
I was going to sell off my extra copies in about a month during MTG Vegas. I might end up selling considerably more than just spare the high dollar cards that I owned. I feel more than a bit scorned. I was already waning on magic. This feels like quite the death nail.
That Crypt when up only the old printings got hit hard any of the latest are good. hum almost like the secondary market is influenced from some larger company . . . .
There is no chance that the rules committee did not run this by WotC first and likely well in advance. Even when the RC does complain about things in the past (universes beyond, Jeweled lotus being a mistake) WotC just ignores them.
The even worse part of missing out on crypt is that it says flip a coin, and yet no one ever flipped a coin, they just used a die. "Evens I take damage, odds I don't"
@@DraygaFlightwell, no, because cedh usually often means tournaments or other kinds of playing events, where they will HAVE to follow the bans. However, if you had disliked a certain card in commander, in your CASUAL pods, you could just rule zero remove them from the game yourself.
Exactly. Thinking that some arbitrary group of people have power like this to effect the Market to this scale. That a multibillion dollar company would allow such a group to do this without their consent is foolish.
We've known this since the Invoke Prejudice ban. Instead of doing the smart thing and just doing nothing cause those old cards were niche and unplayable. They walked in lockstep so now only 93/94 format has it legal now.
So here’s the problem that few people are discussing: the RC goes to wizards to let them know incoming bans, but wizards doesn’t consult the RC when they’re introducing these cards because then maybe it wouldn’t be released. Hasbro wouldn’t allow that.
Here is why the RC telling the community in advance about planned bans is pointless: Lets say the RC said they wanna reduce fast mana in the format. Then those with say jeweled lotus will wanna sell their stock. But to whom? No one will buy, and whoever will buy (not thinking it will get banned soon) will just be the one stuck with it rather than you. If you buy cards as an investment, you are olaying a game of hot potato. Whoever is left holding the card when the ban/reprint comes loses. Do so at your own risk knowing cards are banned because of the GAME, not because of the secondary market.
There is absolutely no way that wiz would just let a 3rd party handle this decision unilaterally. They 100% were consulted on these bannings and made this decision together.
@@travisgaffordmtg since the cards for upcoming sets (which may have included some of these cards if WOTC was not informed) aren't printed overnight and take months to be printed and packaged for shipping, WOTC would most likely find a way to "stop them" from announcing these bans before those releases.
@@travisgaffordmtg I don't think "Stop them" is the right phrase, but if they weren't consulted (which they were talked to according to the Committee themselves in the RC Discord) they could have approached it in a different way. They could have fed into the discontent in the community, and pit them against the RC in a bid to seize control of the format, framing them as improper stewards especially now that they have more new members in the group helping to make decisions. The fact that they instead copied over the rulings to the main Wizards website, and from all appearances appear to be supporting the propagation of the news says to me that this is fine with them (likely because they've already dumped off a bunch of Mana Crypt reprints and Jeweled Lotus reprints recently, so it doesn't hit their bottom line). There's definitely a line somewhere where Wizards would retaliate (Sol Ring might have been that here, for example) but they've not hit that line.
@@travisgaffordmtg Simply say no, or they will be removed from official status. Wizards hold all the power behind the curtains. The problem is that wizards knew the bans and kept printing those cards. Both Wizards AND RC are at fault.
@@travisgaffordmtgby saying the rules committee has no bargaining on the game. Simple. Wait until the lawyers get involved and discovery takes place. We will know then
you touched on the best point here: the people in charge of ban lists have to do whats best for the game. if wizards wants people to keep buying their cards they need to stop printing broken shit.
The only ban I didn't like was the crypt. I understand why and i'm not rly against but... I did enjoy playing it. I do play casual and my games usually last for 10~20+ rounds, so it was always more fun seeing people dying for it than seen unpleasant spike of power cause of +2 mana.
I like your opening, and your video is very well done and spoken given 2 years in the game. I'll def be curious on the future of MTG (and eDH) after this big ban (and maybe it gets folks to form another form of eDH where those cards can stay legal as well as bring back some cards that got banned that can be played if everyone agrees on them like Paradox Engine). And I'm your 99th comment on this page :-)
I disagree that the bans send a msg to wotc that the RC will ban chase cards. Wotc got to use these 3 chase cards to drive sales of several products over many years. If you want your dog to stop peeing on the rug, you don't scold it three hours after it made a puddle.
What I love about fast mana and tutors is the ability to tune up and down decks depending on what you play. If it's a trash commander with a hard, slow, bad but fun theme, you can add some tutors and fast mana to bridge the gap to playability. And if you play a strong commander with a strong shell, you can just remove some tutors and fast mana to scale it back. It's literally the Guage you use to adjust power level. Slow, nisch, and bad commanders get even worse now.
@isaiahbradford2343 The same could be said before the ban. Don't like all the fast, mana? Play more interaction, "get creative." It's a weak argument, but it's nonetheless true 👍
I've been playing EDH since before commander products were a thing. Looking back over the years, having the rules committee be a separate entity from wizards was always a good thing and I still support it. I do think with the proliferation of cEDH, LGS casual Commander events that didn't have clear zero rule conversations made games less appealing, specifically for new comers. My POV, cEDH gets hit the most by this ban. I feel the bans make Casual Commander better. cEDH will need to adapt if the subgroup wants to keep using the Commander banlist. Another option would be to have separate banlist for cEDH since most cards play differently in cEDH.
I believe that people were misplacing their anger and lost trust. We shouldn’t be mad at the RC outside of how the bans were presented. People should be mad at WotC for allowing Mana Crypt, Dockside, and Jeweled Lotus reach the ridiculous prices that they did. WotC decided to turn staples into hard-to-get chase cards that were massively under printed.
The RC let WotC have there chase cards in set before banning happened (ie the talks the RC and WotC had for over a year about the bans) so yes the RC deserves the heat and more I would say the explanation for not banning Sol Ring too was a joke it's better then Crypt lol
@@Miko_of_the_North The RC can’t control what WotC decides to print. They can advise WotC against (re)printing cards but WotC will decide if they want to print it in the end.
@@Miko_of_the_Norththe difference is accessibility. Its less of an issue if everyone can play it. "I want to fight you, not your wallet..." Is a common feeling.
@@jolteon345 no, but the RC can ban cards that have been a problem for several years. Mana crypt isn’t a new card, and it isn’t suddenly broken… it’s been broken since it’s first printing. They only banned it after it got massively desired reprints… and that sucks ass and they have bad ages to ban it.
I've always believed that often, more important than fairness in policy making... is perceived fairness in policy making. PR matters, the mandate of the RC has upkeep costs!
Is "combo" fun? Does sitting around for 15 minutes watching a guy demonstrate an infinite loop entertaining after the 5th time? It's only fun to the person performing the action, the rest of the table is going to sit and watch. Don't even use that low hanging fruit called "Stax" if you're gonna ignore the other fruit called, "I combo off and spend 15 minutes to waste your time while I vomit out my library".
@@BanditZRaver No it’s not. I’m making a case for cEDH players and builders who brew and play responsibly. If you dockside combo on a precon player you’re a prick and the LGS should make fun of and shun you. I’m not gonna throw my 6 year old on a 20 inch 12 speed bike. I want these cards people who wanna play where I want to play.
i think those were good bans but leaving sol ring may be a bit contradictory but its cool to see the hyper inflated prize cards go, too many use those cards like they are absolutely necessary and they are not, it's sad for those who bought one of these recently but these are good bans.
I have no problem with the specific card bans. I agree with the sentiment that the problem was that the cards got so expensive to begin with. WotC should have reprinted them to keep them from getting that expensive, but... The RC should have banned these cards YEARS ago. Trying to be "hands-off" just allowed the problem to grow, and when they finally did take action, it looks like a massive change because they let it get as bad as it did. Dockside didn't just become a problem. Mana Crypt didn't just become a problem. Jeweled Lotus didn't just suddenly become a problem. The RC, through inaction, allowed these problem cards to become format staples. The RC, through inaction, allowed the price of these cards to skyrocket. They're definitely to blame for the sudden drop in value, but they're also responsible for pumping that value to those levels to begin with.
Exactly… mana crypt has been broken since it was first created and banned in most formats. It should have been hit along side the original mox cards. But they do nothing for ages, then decide to hit crypt after an expensive reprint? And I don’t find a jewelled lotus to even be that bad unless someone is like constantly bringing it back for free.
Hasbro knows exactly what's happening. I'm buying proxies. You think anymore mana crypts coming down in a later set. If you got hit , you should be angry.
I'm relieved but not surprised that you seem to understand the hidden hazards around this situation. Losing "money" to a ban like this is awful and I don't want to discount that for either players or LGSs. However it is sooo much better for the health of Commander for the reigns to be in the hands of people who don't have an inbuilt conflict of interest. I think if the players can shake off the acute pain of these bans this could be the best thing to happen to EDH in a long time. The RC made a decision with the aim of making commander more fun more often for more of the group, and they made it even though that decision gave WotC a black eye. Having multiple expensive cards that they've printed and sold packs on is obviously a bad look but the existence and prevalence of those cards is WotC's fault, not the RC's.
I totally understand dockside, nadu. Jeweled lotus I’m iffy on since it’s only really nice the first couple turns. Mana crypt I don’t get why it’s banned since you can lose life every turn potentially for colorless mana. Doesn’t make sense to me.
@@Shawn-f3x I get that, that’s why atleast in my friend group. We have specific conversations about that stuff. Going to a local shop to play, you have to hope people are honest about their decks power levek
I think its a very big headache between edh and cedh, where people playing edh can rule 0 stuff like this, but it becomes a debate over card usage (especially with strangers/locals) that can feel demotivating instead of something like cedh, a competitive format that benefits from bans. Just making bans for cedh and letting players decide (without bias or prejudice) how to play edh.
I 100% disagree and it should be the opposite. The rules and banlist should be curated for fresh tables in a 0 trust game (basically, new players who have never met each other). the cEDH community or table that are more familiar with the game should just Rule 0 cards in. The whole reason this happend in the first place is because people never self curate their cards to lower their power to an acceptable level and stuck in manacrypts and jlos in their decks in casual over the table FNM without ever disclosing they have these since they didnt think there was anything wrong with putting them in, hence the rules. People know that Thassa is a problem so they intentionally do not play it, but too many people didn't see a problem with these. Asking a random person "hey I have X card in my deck, is that okay" is so much easier for everybody than expecting people to ask "hey please do not play 0cmc Fast Mana".
The issue with rule 0, is that it essentially doesn’t exist as log as there is a banlist… lets be real if a card is on an “official” banlist, it’s gonna be an uphill challenge to get it rule 0’d.
@ArCSelkie37 that's not true. My friend has a mono blue braids deck. He gets plenty of games at the shop with a banned commander. U can, too, with ur fast mana if that's the game u want to play. Just find similar minded people
I think the RC finally did what needed to be done. I think the RC and only they should be in charge of commander bans. I think the RC should not care about card prices and WOTC earnings. If you lost money because you're a CEDH player, because those cards are must-have in CEDH, I'm sorry. If you lost money because you're a collector, or play those cards in casual commander, I'm not sorry. If you're a collector, you weren't gonna sell them anyway. If you're a casual EDH player, then why the crap are you running $200 powerhouses in casual??? I'm happy this ban happened, I hope we get more powerhouse staples banned too. I am however fully aware they should have announced this in advance so people could get rid of their cards.
i am new a mtg i failed to understand why would any cards needs to be banned, this is a product that you buy and sometimes for a lot of money you should be able to play any card you own if not what is the point to have a card taking dust in your home
Why do you think they kept Sol Ring? Does the one cost make it that much worse? I personally do not like doing damage to myself so the Sol Ring it is but it's just as broken or am I missing something?
It's mainly a matter of saturation, the more fast mana there is the more likely you are to see it. For the people that care about it the difference between having 3 mana turn 1 and 2 colorless mana turn 1 is massive - being the difference between casting something like rhystic study or some similar three Drop and casting a mana rock.
They should have banned it. This is a common issue with the RC. They don't ban cards they like, and ban cards they've played against and don't like. Sol Ring wasn't banned because all of them play it, and none of them play Jeweled Lotus.This has been a problem with the RC since the first commander set came out over 10 years ago.
@tomw6056 That sucks. I just recently started playing after like 25 years of my old cards collecting dust. Commander is wild to me and I'm still trying to figure out the format. Having a governing body that can ban the cards they don't like for that reason cannot be good for the game. Good thing I didn't buy a crypt I guess when I ordered all those new cards. Off topic but man it's so easy to buy cards in this day and age, what a culture shock from playing last in like 1999. My Dark Ritual doesn't feel quite the card it was back then.
@@albertpnc They all are fine. They only reason people complaining is because of loss of value, when they weren't even going to sell them had the bans not happened. The amount of entitlement of people thinking that they can make money off the game is ridiculous. Wizards is the only entity that has a right to profit off the game.
@@albertpnc jeweled lotus is one of the most overrated cards in the history of magic. its incredibly narrow and offers little value unless youre playing a very specific deck. a wastes is more useful than jeweled lotus in most decks
@@Arctanis-vt3hl You are discounting local card stores entirely with that statement, friend. I think they have had it the worst for a good while now. With WotC, who is cashing in on their right to earn a profit off of this game, as you mentioned, has continually hosed shops. Now, a third-party independent group that is meant to represent the people in the most popular format of the game has also, out of the blue, hosed local shops. I do not want to delve into the conspiracies, but that fact can not be denied. They make money off of MtG, too. As for me personally, I was waiting to offload extras of some of these cards in about a month when MtG Vegas rolled around. I thought that that would be the best and easiest place to do so. That's why all of this is so messy. Especially with how sudden and quickly it came without any warning, except for the occasional Dockside murmur throughout the years.
@robertshmurda I apologize, I am unsure what this point has to do with my comment. If you want to discuss the value of a card within the context of a game, we can. The fact that most cards can find a home that best suits them in EDH is part of the appeal of the format. If you haven't ever played JL in an artifact deck, it can be quite good there, better than a waste imo. However, the card can be overrated if you can not just snowball, like the RC claimed was the reason they felt the need to ban it. If you keep a greedy hand and the table answers your general, yes. Essentially, a waste would be much better than the quick burst that the JL got you, especially since now you also have the tax on your commander.
Great video and level-headed takes. Do you really want the people who failed to emergency ban Nadu after PT MH3, waited way too long to ban Grief in Legacy and stil hasn't banned Psy frog in Legacy to run your format? No, that's obviously disastrous.
I don't agree with this RC decision but I definitely don't think WoTC should have control of the format. I kinda wish that all formats had their own RC because that could be a hedge for WoTC making cards like this in the future.
Great Looking cards. My group will still play these, and I'm sure a number of people will pick these up on the cheap. Do not agree with how they did this.
I’d bet all the money I had wrapped up in the bans that Wizards and the RC had conversations surrounding this list. I would be willing to guarantee that not a single one of these cards was slated for a reprint in the next 12-18 months. This was a joint decision.
I may be on the hype train for the bannings, but I think this is an excellent take on this topic. THANK YOU for making a genuinely informative, non-controversial video on the genuine pros and cons of it all that isn’t just “Grrr I hate the RC and EDH players” (which, sadly, I’ve been hearing a lot of recently from some groups) Though I may disagree on a few things regarding it, the extra transparency in the RC would be extremely beneficial if it were implemented in some way, as obviously these bannings were a shock I do believe these bannings are at the least good for the format, as a lot of the hate I had observed around the cards had been people who played at LGSs and needed to deal with other ‘casual’ decks running rampant with a turn 1 mana crypt and jeweled lotus. Although, I do wish that rule 0 had been mentioned a bit about things, on the topic of the RC being these faceless gods. It’s always been encouraged to communicate to your group and feel free to waive bannings, even if it means seeing the ban list as just a guideline, and I wish it were talked about. The RC is not in full control of people’s kitchen table magic. If a group wants to run mana crypts, they are free to, so I’m not sure why so many people just refuse to talk with their groups, and rather blame the RC for everything
I understand their logic however, I think it's extremely flawed. 3 cards being banned to slow a singleton 100 card format is pretty haphazard. The speed of casual will continue to snowball with power creep in MTG as a whole. It really came off as a personal slight against cEDH as even in their published FAQ they stated that high-powered play was spilling into the format. The way it read to me, was that this was a measure to keep the game the way they like it vs allowing people to rule 0 away from the things they don't like.
To be honest, Nadu is the problem as it is just a poor design that WOTC has admitted to. The other cards will most likely be unbanned eventually but they are just the victims in a series of unfortunate events. I am sure the RC has communicated some displeasure about having cards designed with a focus on finding a home in the commander format, and has finally decided that with the release of Nadu, there needed to be some victims to communicate that actions would have consequences. The victims in this case were the chase cards from the last few sets that helped push sales of that product. The victims in question were Mana Crypt, Jeweled Lotus, and Dockside Extortionist. Everyone can backlash against the ban, but did the RC really have a choice? To protect the format that is now having product designed towards it, the RC eventually would have to step in as WOTC demonstrated a lack of design testing with Nadu. All of the cards will most likely be removed from the ban list by the RC with the exception of Nadu.
I liked playing Lotus and Crypt. I think you make a good impatial point on the situation but i believe the frustration Is also because part of the community really liked turbo games. Other than rage for economical loss i think many people now are very confused about what Commander Is supposed to be. When i started again magic with Commander i saw a lot of crazy powerful cards that allowed turbo starts and rapid games + the promise that Commander Is a stable format with limited bans. This ban strongly conflicts with the resons i started playing Commander and couldn't be foreseen based on what i could know about the format. Commander has not to be as i like but It has to be clear what It Is so that people can decide in advance if they want to play or not in the format.
Honestly, I feel like it's less of the financial hit and more the play hit. The RC has stated this is how we play the game, and if you don't like it, we will ban your favorite cards. Like, let me play how I want to play. What is the point of the rule zero if you are just gonna ban everything.
Whats the point in a rule 0 if everyone says no im fallowing the ban list. Rule 0 is not for pods it's for groups you play with consistently and in those pods hey look you can say we like these cards so we allow then in our group. Alot of people pushing for just rule 0 don't seem to want ot just rule 0 a card back in
@@domicci4460exactly, rule 0 and a banlist are opposing concepts. Most tables aren’t going to be happy to unban cards as part of rule 0. They might lets you run certain illegal commanders, but otherwise they’re not gonna say “sure play that banned card”
Once you have been abused, there is no going back to how things were before. My confidence and joy in collecting premium cards is completely gone. I will not buy anymore sealed product and I will not invest in any specialty versions of powerful cards. That's a fact. I have spent thousands and thousands and I am really sad right now. I've had six modern decks banned in one day a few years back and I sold my modern collection afterwards and only focused on commander afterwards since it was a safe haven until recently.
Yeah, i’m worried about my secret lair of Smothering tithe… and that’s not even a third of the price of a regular crypt. I can’t even imagine if I had a mana crypt. I’m not rich by any means, and it was a special treat to buy that… and i’ve seen some people asking for that to be banned too.
@@ArCSelkie37 yeah I have one foil ixalan, 3 old border one masters and one Jude promo crypt. It sucks. We will continue playing the cards within our playgroup but money wise it's a disaster.
The dumbest part was saying that they had to ban these because rule 0 doesnt work. Every store in my area has their own rule 0 banlist, every pod I play with has a rule 0 convo. But it doesnt work? Suuure
I think with a lot of players rule 0 and a banlist are sorta at odds with each other… especially if your pod isn’t the same 4 guys. If a card is banned, for whatever reason, you’re gonna have an uphill battle convincing a stranger to let you run it. And if you do get to convince them, the moment you win because of a rule 0 card… you can bet that rule 0 is getting revoked.
@@ArCSelkie37 they are only at odds for me because I think commander could be split into 2-3 formats. Cedh, casual, and potentially a middle ground between the two. Top players shouldnt be building their decks off a banlist based around casual play, and casual play could get rid of most of rule 0 with a larger banlist. One banlist for every player isnt enough for a format this big
Finally a decent take on this whole situation wotc is not your friend the reason these cards cost so much is because of them, look at sol ring an objectively better card but it's printed in every commander deck so it's cheap. Wizards choose to not print these chase cards to sell product
WOTC has something coming out later thays strong and they needed to flush out the market of these fast mana cards. I think these cards should be updated into the reserve list actually. But hasbro and wizards won't beat their reprint Equity cards like this, there's something they cooked up and finally "allowed" these to get banned to crash the prices of them.
Cedh is almost a different format and I think the banlist from edh should be different. In my group we play both and have decks for both, in edh we limit power level by agreeing to one mana positive rock and one tutor. In cedh everything legal goes.
The RC is just a puppet of WotC, some of them work for WotC just asying. The RC should have banned the cards before the reprints. With them talking for over a year to wait till after the set where released speaks words to the lack of power and back bone the RC really has. Also the pulling of the cards from the buy lists a week or more before the ban. There is a lot of insider trading going on.
@@rorschach1Wonder how many of them cashed out before dropping this ban. Just because they are "magic" players doesn't mean they are beyond corruption
@@rorschach1they sure took their time banning a card that has been broken for nearly 30 years… and only waited until a reprint that saw a surge in sales.
If you buy the cards to play, then you're purchasing an entertainment product - you can't sell a movie ticket to a movie you've already watched or expect to make a profit on a fifteen year old basketball. If you buy for value, you are speculating and are just as susceptible to the floor dropping out as any crypto bro is. Its a risk you should have gone into with eyes open.
I had a masterpiece mana crypt since it was printed. I really took pride in having it. I was so happy i had a single card that was worth something. I have been playing Magic since the mid 1990s most of the time casually, and Magic is getting worst every year. This time its the last nail in the coffin for me. This garbage company doesn't deserve any trust, they Always betray it. If you stay by them, I garantee soon will be the time when it's your turn to lose everything.
The RC is supposed to look out for the community. The community was not asking for bans on these cards (except nadu and arguably Dockside) and, for a fact, some RC members were against it. The disconnect between the RC and the community right now is real, be it for the lost value of said cards, rumors of WOTC selling the secret lair knowing that bans would come next, or that the RC came out of left field after a long period of not doing "much" to prove a point. These all generate mistrust and you cannot blame people for it. Its a natural reaction to instability, simple as that. I lost all 4 cards yesterday in a fell swoop to some arbitrary decision and I will never buy a real card again. Only Proxies forever.
I have been asking for a mana crypt banned. I have 3 of the cards (no dockside). Kinda dislike it when a "power level 7" deck dropped it and the guy justify it by saying, his deck is "niche" and weak so he needs it to keep up
@anhvu6824 Ehhh, honestly, whenever stuff like that happens, it's a people thing versus the cards. Like, Rhystic isn't a problem if you pay the 1; it's just Sphere of Resistance at that point. But people come up with all types of excuses as to why they need to cast something now and not pay. I'm not saying it's always the case, but sometimes the card in that 7 isn't even that bad. However, due to stigma, people get salty. For a personal example, I've seen a Mana Geyser resolve with people groaning and moaning about that person making so much mana, saying that card shouldn't exist. But in the same game, someone played Zendikar Resurgence and Nyxbloom, and no one said anything. The only place you truly get to play your deck is with buddies or in cEDH, where everyone pretty much accepts everything that's legal
I've heard a lot of people at my lgs agree that crypt should have been banned. Also, you should have just had 1 copy of each and just proxies for the rest of the decks owned. You could either binder the real ones and showed them you have it or just switch it out for each deck
Rules comittee = Wizards of the scam coast.... if you don't believe it check the Mana Crypts /Lotus stuff sold in the last 2 months, it was maaaaaasive!!
6:14 So making really hood cards that can be played in any commander deck is a bad thing? Is Sol Ring not the same? Or is it just because it's been reprinted so many times and is very cheap? If so then instead of banning the card why not just put it in every pre-con deck from now on. Just like Sol Ring and Command Tower. That fixes things. Everyone either have them and be able to play with them.
The RC is never going to be an independent third party. Nor will it ever been unbiased... WOTC would never let a third party that doesn't have the same goals/incentives as them control such a large part of their revenue. It's frankly wild that people believe there is some sort of great wall between these two organizations. Maybe its not direct influence and maybe its in some indirect forum.
@@travisgaffordmtg I honestly don't think I have a good answer for that question other than speculating that, since the RC, hasn't really done much for so long. WOTC didn't feel the need to try and step in, because it makes no sense to me (and seems quiet dangerous) that WOTC/Hasbro would allow a third party that doesn't share the same incentives to have so much say over their cash cow. As for what WOTC could do to stop its existence... I assume they could just outright just say "The RC has formally been disbanded and we've taken control over the banlist for the format." And im not sure what anyone could do. I am 100% of the belief that the RC is not independent in the slightest. Which is not an actual issue, and probably is much better long-term.
@@travisgaffordmtg WotC is the default authority for the game. There are a ton of people that don't even know that the RC is a thing. If the RC and WotC started using separate ban lists, the WotC would be the one followed by most as they control the LGS where a large number of players play.
@@travisgaffordmtg I do enjoy hearing your take on this all since you have a background/experience. I just think from a business perspective, having a third party having control over the banlist. Which influences card prices, which influence the EV of packs and WOTCs decisions to reprint certain cards. Look at what is going on right now, you can pull a Jewelled Lotus out of the festival in a box that's being actively shipped right now. People bought this product with the knowledge that they could infact pull a Lotus and that its worth >$100. Now imagine if this was the case in the middle of 2025. How bad that would be for the company. I relate this whole thing to: If you gave me your credit card. It's not my money so I wouldn't care. The only thing I do care about is you not running out of money.
@@travisgaffordmtg what's happened quite literally gives them the opportune moment to say "we're bringing this in house, we disagree and understand the player sentiment". This would be under the assumption WOTC disagree with the RC. If they don't (and by the way, we have the roadmap for product for quite a while - no hint at any reprints of the banned cards, go figure) disagree, they can create the illusion of two seperate entities. Two realities exist: * RC and WOTC disagree and the RC went ahead and did it anyway. Player sentiment on the whole is negative, opportune moment to capitalise and WOTC can delete the facade to appease the mob. * The RC were influenced by WOTC, it was a to-and-fro for 6-12+ months, and WOTC have alternative "chase" cards that will replace the banned ones in the pipeline for the next 3-12 months -- and they're happy to let the RC take the heat, because if you're naive, you'll believe "well the RC are the battle cruiser bros and they want this game style". Think about it. WOTC with absolute CERTAINTY DO NOT HAVE ANY OF THE BANNED CARDS PLANNED FOR ANY SET IN THE NEXT 12 MONTHS. I'm sorry, you seem like a nice fella - but you're deluded. If you think the RC can throw a curve ball at WOTC and potentially fuck up their prints for the next 6-12 months you're chatting breeze my dude.
There have been rumors that the bans were made specifically for cedh, which adds to the divide between the RC & the playerbase. This is the best video I've watched about the recent bannings.
@@kuroshinko427 You are a very lucky person, not seeing mana crypts or jeweled lotuses on casual tables played by pubstomping people at your LGS. Maybe you have a good environment at your LGS or are engaging in rule 0 discussions. Trust me, those bans did help casual EDH a whole fucking lot and are a very good thing.
@@davidarbour2683 I did and the points he made about communication & empathy still stand. The RC can't just announce the bannings on a notepad.txt and call it a day. As much as the RC is a 3rd party, the people swearing to go proxies all the way only see the RC as an extension of WotC, especially with the rumors that the RC has been in talks w/ WotC for a year regarding these bans.
If one has to choose between shortsighted financial dilletants and greedy corpo any sane person will choose the corpo as its predictable and doesnt make nonsensical kneejerk decisions... And no the financial value is intrinsic part of COLLECTING game, if the group that is making decisions like this doesnt take financials in consideration then that group simply cannot be making such decisions...
If anyone thinks that these three bans (bar nadu) are without the prior knowledge and consent from WOTC, they are delusional. If anyone thinks there's even a slight possibility that they didn't act on that knowledge to sell some copies of these cards before the ban and that they weren't scrapped from R&D for any future sets WAAAAY ahead of the ban, they are delusional. They are more that willing participants. Having said that, I'm happy these cards are out of my games.
Banning cards that have been around and legal for 5 years is just a bad look. No getting around that. This is annoying and makes me not want to buy any Magic ever again, outside of vintage anyway.
When was mana crypt first printed? And how long has it been broken for? Yeah, part of the issue is waiting this long to ban a card that has been a problem for ages… let alone dockside and lotus.
I think the RC will always be hated on. Even if they do everything right. Commander is played by a large number of people with each their own vision for the game. People who watch videos on MTG often argue over philosophies of the format in the comments and we are a minority. I remember when my coworker pulled a hull breacher from a pack, he was excited to play it. I told him its banned, he said he didn't care. I told him how it interacts with wheels and he only got more excited because he had no idea. Meanwhile, content creators and long time players sigh when they see the first half of a combo piece because they've seen it a million times and its boring to them. The RC will never reconcile both my coworker and the people arguing in the comments. Not to mention the many other types of players. Collectors, cedh players etc.
I am not going to chase anything ever again. Why buy cards to play with when the RC can decides they don't think that play style is good for the format 3 months later. I'm done buying cards at all now I think. They control the rarity, they support the secondary market and then 5 randos say naw you all lose your money and your play pieces. They admit Sol Ring is busted too but they aren't touching that one because IT MAKES WIZARDS TOO MUCH MONEY. This was BS. The RC can get GF a SF.
The issue isn't a third party controlling the banlist. I agree, it is a good thing that Wizards, a company becoming increasingly corrupted by Hasbro daily, doesn't control bans in the most popular format. The issue is that the Rules Committee as they currently exist are absolutely terrible and stupid with their decisions outside of a few exceptions. Their entire reasoning for bans seems to revolve their members' own personal play experiences to the detriment of the format overall. This isn't the first time their bans have been capricious and heavily criticized (the Emrakul ban in particular was absurd), but this particular round seems to be especially egregious. I owned a foil full art jeweled lotus (I pulled it luckily, I didn't buy it). I am one of the people that played Jeweled Lotus and am angry I can't play it anymore. But more importantly than that, their reasoning for banning these cards was nonexistent and damages the format. If we accept their logic at face value, then they showed their hand at being out of touch and capricious. Why was Sol Ring not banned? They even realized how begged this question was, and mention it in their decision. Sol Ring should have been banned, it being "iconic" and commonly reprinted is no excuse. The reality is, Sol Ring wasn't banned because the individual RC members enjoy playing it, and none of them played Jeweled Lotus. That's the only reason, and it's a terrible reason. Why are degenerate commanders like Griselbrand and Braids banned, but not ones like Narset? Because the RC was never at the receiving end of Narset. The Rules Committee isn't trusted because they don't take their job seriously, and ban for themselves and not the community.
I own 3 crypts from a long time ago and also own Dockside, played them in a few decks and removed them due to them clearly being power cards that not everybody has access to and felt genuinely bad playing them. As for the "value" lost, I don't have a personal problem with that since the cards only have value if you plan on selling them which I dont have any intention of doing so in the first place. I think the bans were completely justified and in fact they should have banned more cards that are staples, in fact I don't think the idea of staples like Rhystic, Cradle, Tithe, Sentinel should even be a thing in a format like this, it makes what is a 99 card deck essentially a 90 or 95 card deck. The only criticism I have here is that they should have banned them much sooner since it was obvious to anybody these were broken cards very early into release, and them waiting for 5 years to do these. I do agree that Sol Ring does also need a look though.
Sometimes it definitely does feel like the bans are “what annoyed this particular RC member in a game this month”. When I look at the banlist and so many of the cards on it are just weaker versions of other combos… or other things easier to stop. Like coalition victory is “unfun” because it comes out of nowhere… but requires way more set up than a thoracle (literally 2 cards). Coalition is also infinitely more interactable with its ways to stop it (any removal at all, counters etc)… thoracle is just “better have a counter spell”.
@@ArCSelkie37 i think both are problems and hopefully Thoracle does get banned, as well as lesser Thoracle because that's just gonna get used if its banned.
@@BDtetra but they’ve always excused thoracle because “no one plays it in casual” apparently… despite it being a two card combo and neither card in the combo is actually that expensive. If i was to ban them, I’d restrict it to you can either have consultation or thoracle.
@@ArCSelkie37 I'm aware and I mean I do kind of understand their reasoning, if you play Thoracle in casual you are obviously a dick in every way possible, but I know many people who use Mana Crypt that don't think its a problem because it justifies them playing a high cost commander. I really do not agree with the justification at all but the ban made it pretty clear that it shouldn't be a thing
Us budget players just sitting back and enjoying the show. While I do feel for those people losing value on some of their cards, the purpose of bans is to improve the health and diversity of a format, which I believe these do, and shouldn't take into account the value of the cards in question. Incredibly OP cards shouldn't get a pass just because they are expensive, and hopefully this will bridge the gap (slightly) between people who are willing to spend $100+ dollars on a single card and those who aren't.
Ya people are just mad they lost money because they were investing in the cards but like we say with stocks if your not willing to lose the money don't invest it
As for Fast mana, There is numerous ways to meet their 5 mana by turn 2. Mishra's Workshop is 3k card and makes 3 mana for artifact Gaia's Cradle Produces a ton of mana Serra's Sanctum Produces a tone of mana Sol Ring they admit should be banned but won't be due to it being in every commander precon deck (Poster child) Grim Monolith, Mana vault Stil are issue also. Rituals, Mana dorks + Leyline They didn't go wide, the issue was more so lack of constituency. They stated 5 mana by turn 2 should not exist and yet there is tons of the ways to make this mana.
@@davidarbour2683 y spend $100 on a single card when I can build a decently strong deck for $100? I spend plenty on my hobbies, I'd just rather spend it smarter
@davidarbour2683 Why spend $100 on a single card when I can build an entire deck for the same price? I spend plenty on my hobbies, I just prefer to spend my money a little bit smarter
@@noisepoIIution bc if you build a new deck and put that money into it and you don't like it and the playstyle doesn't seem good to you well you just throw 100$ into the garbage....
I've lost faith in product now, why should I chase or be excited about expensive cards anymore? Ixalan wasn't even that long ago and now my mana crypt that was sitting on a shelf to sell later is worth almost nothing. Mana crypt wasn't even the most egregious card I've gone against when there's still land destruction in the format. And not banning sol ring was such a wimpy move to not piss off wizards come on 🤦
