"Suffering from one of his violent fits, Fulgrim rushed to Curze's aid. The Night Lords primarch then confided in his brother of the dire visions that he had seen; his death at the hands of their father, that many of the primarchs would die fighting amongst themselves, and that the light the Emperor brought to his homeworld of Nostromo would destroy it forever. Troubled by these dire portents, Fulgrim confided in his brother Rogal Dorn. Dorn took exception to this slight on the Emperor's name and confronted Curze. Shortly thereafter, Dorn was found unconscious and bleeding with great gouges of flesh ripped away from his torso." Key points: "The Night Lords primarch then confided in his brother of the dire visions that he had seen." "Dorn took exception to this slight on the Emperor's name and confronted Curze." To my knowledge, this was the first time Konrad ever tried to open up to his brothers, and Dorn was offended that he had the GAUL to say something bad about daddy dearest. Yeah, I'm sorry, Fists, but Dorn is an asshole.
I'd say the closest comparison to real life the Night Lords had would be Vlad the Impaler since he used fear tactics when defending his homeland, but overall he wasn't really better or worse than anyone else at the time, impaling actually being a common method of execution, especially among the Ottomans. Hell, a lot of what Vlad did was either exaggerated or made up to defame him. Idk enough about the Night Lords to know if the same happened with them during the Great Crusade, but that would've been an interesting angle to take.
I disagree, the practises of the Night Lords work in the same way Konrad methods worked on his world. Yes, the worlds surrendered with fewer losers but the moment the scary monsters go away those worlds will rebel. Many say that they killed less to save the many but no, a conquest with armies, break the world and rebuild it loyal to the empire was killing the few to save the many. Again, look at Konrad's home world.
The problem is, the night lords killed all the nobles, and their successors so painfully that the replacement got the memo and starts to improve the world instead of rebelling or they'll receive the same gruesome end as the former rulers of their world. The night lords kills aristocrats, not normal civilians in their campaign. The nightlords are so successful in their campaign, and his brothers hated him for it. Though Alpharius on the other hand secretly praised Konrad for his methods in his book. So is malcador, but a bit annoyed by Konrad when he killed a few politicians on terra for trying to bribe him.
The Nightlords are humane only if you are a hyper materialist that does not consider mental harm to be harm. Yes, they did kill and physically harm waaaay less people then other legions, but they harmed the psyche of every single citizen on planets they conquered and those they did not as well since a lot of people heard of them. If you actually consider psychological damage and harm, they are at least as much if not more destructive and harmful then other legions. They just bring harm, pain and suffering in a different way, that does not mean they didn't harm people. Psychological torture is just as bad as physical torture Psychological harm is just as bad as physical harm The Nightlords are fucking awfull, don't try to pretend they are any better then other legions
Yeah the thing is that in reality terror tactics don’t necessarily work or, as demonstrated by Nostramo, don’t lay a sustainable groundwork for peace. Humans are not purely rational creatures. Thought during the crusade the problem was that it seem to mostly lack coordination since guys like Angron were just allowed to run wild instead of pointing them to targets fitting to them. It was done but most of time Legions were expected to just expand the imperium. But yes Prime Night Lords were interesting precisely because of the complexity of how to bring justice to the shitty universe.
Honestly the question of how effective terror tactics are is one that i've looked into and find the answers lacking, they're certainly unethical but most examples that come to mind are indiscriminate bombing or torture for information the former of which is what the other legions do and not so much the night lords I do think it would make more sense to have primarchs and their legions have been selected for the conquest of worlds suited to their talents, you find a second planet like nostramo you may as well pick the kurze to get some value out of what is otherwise a corrupted infested shithole before letting people with sanity and compassion actually govern the damn thing to keep it loyal Wheras if you find a world alike to our own modern one maybe just send gulliman to negotiate a peaceful integration
@@AmariFukui Exactly. Not to mention that likes of Angron and Kurze aren’t mentioned using any other tactics or diplomacy, same applies to other legions to lesser degree, all of them though their way to be the end and the be all of military tactics. Seriously if Horus had ordered Ultramarines to design logistics, send to WS scout before the fleets, 3rd guard diplomats etc. He would have spared him self a lot of headache. Spreading the legions would have pissed his brothers at first but they would have been way more effective. But I am sure they would have started to complain over lost glory. That is what happens when you put your military under the leadership of manchild warlords with a antiquated views on generalship.
The Mongols are one of the only people who seem to know how to actually use terror tactics effectively. Inflict the most horrific torture possible on those who don’t surrender and treat those who do with kindness, that’s how you use terror tactics to conquer a nation.
@@cpaul562 Funny enough they were the main force I was thinking of regarding the effectiveness of such tactics, the issue with them as comparison though is that their bodycount brought the human population of Earth down by percentage points, in a pre-industrial society So was that terror-tactics working or they depopulated places so much they simply had no way to resist It worked in any regard, just maybe not the Night-Lords way as shown in lore given they're supposed to be taking thousands of lives to deliver worlds intact
Honestly the more I hear about Konrad, the more i'm intrigued by him. In a way, I don't think he was wrong about having to die by the assassin, either. Even Sanguinius knew he HAD to die by Horus, eventually...or that his visions would lead him to Horus, and everything else from there was unknown. Valdor himself consistently always told Leman that the Emperor has a plan for everything, and not to be fearful of the future. Certain things up until now definitely had to happen, even if a lot of the surrounding events were unforeseen, or unplanned. That's how prophecy kind of works in 40k - damned if you do, and damned if you don't act on it. But honestly the more I read about Konrad, the more I'm convinced that if it wasn't for Lionel Johnson and Konrad's own insanity, He [Konrad] could have been waay more of a gigantic menace during the Heresy. He could take on anyone, and as stated, he had beaten up Dorn.
The one thing Konrad fucked up on is not sufficiently brushing up on his Machiavellian philosophy. Even an Ogryn could tell you, albeit with some difficulty, that Machiavelli said 'It is better to be feared than loved', but what most forget is that Machiavelli was very much a 'desperate times call for desperate measures' kind of guy, and he outlines in his work that not all times are desperate, and there are times where one must be a ruler and not a despotic tyrant. 'The Prince' specifically, the source of that infamously misunderstood quote of Machiavelli's, was written to appeal to those very despots who signed Machiavelli's paychecks, and he did so in full knowledge that the fools who took his work at face value would go from being feared to being hated and subsequently ousted from power, while those who had the sense to read between the lines and look to Machiavelli's other works would know to foster love and devotion when times of crisis and desperation ended, because while it is better to be feared than loved, it is better still to be feared AND loved. Who outside of the most dedicated members of the Night Lords and the kindest of the Primarchs could earnestly say that they loved Konrad Curze?
It's one of those things that at first you're like "what are you talking about? how much have you been drinking?!" but then you start really thinking about it and it's like "he might have a point..." I still wouldn't call them "the most ethical"- they skinned an entire cargo ship's crew and threw them out of the airlock, and that's not even in top 50 most messed up things they've done- but you absolutely can make a compelling argument that by far they have the least innocent blood on their hands, even less than Salamanders or Alpha Legion...
Well even me I would destroy everything because of how well my ways of war so yes they were more humane in that way ethical as the ultramarines or lunar wolves were no they were NOT!
Uh no the night lords are about as humane or ethical the Dark eldar. The most humane and ethical legions are the salamanders, alpha legion and thousand sons, at least during the great crusade.
Yeah but the worlds that the nightlords "conquered" were the first to rebel during the heresy as they had only been subjugated out of fear. Subjugation through fear only works as long as the fear is present. Compare that to Gulliman and Fulgrim, who's 1st option was to talk. Diplomacy and statesmanship. A majority of their conquests were completed through talking to the other side. Yes of course, if talks failed the guns would come out, but talks were the 1st and primary option, always. The night lords would roll up and ask for a surrender, no questions asked. If you didn't then they would start flaying kids immediately. There was no attempt to talk at all. I like the aussie generally but he leaves out too many relevant details so as to seem to be in the right. I lost it when he said that SEVATAR was a good person😂😂. Like the only arguably "good" thing he did was release his slaves near the end of his life. Doesn't excuse every other horrible thing he did. That's like saying Adolf Hitler was a humane and good person because he decided to spare 1 jewish kid from the gas chambers near the end of his life. What an utter load of b.s. 😂😂
Wouldn’t the Alpha Legion be the most “ethical” then because they use infiltration and espionage tactics they could just take over the planet government and no one would realize it
Yes, alongside the thousand sons who used their psyker powers to influence the minds of world leaders to get them to join the imperium peacefully. Or the raven guard who used precision strikes, which result in less casualties than the night lords methods. The night lords are the least ethical of all the legions alongside the iron warriors, death guard and world eaters. the night lords are also the least effective legion of all, even more so than the world eaters, wherever they went they left worlds that feared and hated the imperium and would rebel the moment they got a chance.
They poisoned water supplies, and food rations that killed "millions" of people instantly that terrified the populace into surrendering. Incredibly smart tactic, but it's far too gruesome than what the night lords did.
@@TheHULKMAN117 the Alpha legion was criticised by everyone because the Alpha legion fucking terrified them. While the Night lords were scary you at least knew what you were dealing with but the Alpha legion were a different kind of scary, they embody the most primal and powerful fear of all, the fear of the unknown, you didn’t know if could trust your friends and family or even yourself or your own pets and this goes for their “allies” as well, that’s why everyone criticised the Alpha legion because they were scared of them.
Easily. Because Raiden's character works on the 'perfect run' logic; regardless of how the player fucks up, canonically he is S-ranking everything with no hits or deaths.
@@Brutalyte616 I heard some impressice powerscaling feats for him and his weapons like his sword actually are said to slice through the tiniest of particles like quarks in Metal Gear lore. That is like to crazy Dark Age of Technology level stuff right there perhaps even above it in some areas. Plus Senator Armstrong is a freaken strong brute when compared to otjer enemies Raiden has fought and some of the greatest feats he did while becoming all the more stronger.
@@thorshammer7883 Raiden's high-frequency blade is basically just an antiquated power sword, as it vibrates to loosen the molecular structure of whatever it's cutting. And considering he has the strength to physically throw something the size of a Titan AND the speed and reflexes necessary to dodge and deflect machinegun fire... Well I'd say nothing short of Custodes would really be an even match for Raiden. A lucky shot to the head would kill either one, but very few Imperial forces could actually match Raiden 1-to-1.
@@Brutalyte616 I heard you can actually scale Raiden even higher. From his stopping the momentum of a million ton ship carrying Metal Gears feat in Metal Gear Solid 4 before his upgrades in Metal Gear Rising and scaling him to characters who have dodged light speed lasers reaction times you can even scale him higher. Custodes will have a real hard time fighting him then.
@@Brutalyte616 A High Frequency are extremely op it's ridiculous how much it mostly negates all forms of physical durability. With the exception of Nano machines which another type of special high frequency sword is then needed.
