Why Thomas wasn't a useful engine in real life - LB&SC E2's 

I got quite a few comments like this pointing out that the E2's we're in service for 60 years despite their flaws. What I failed to mention was why this was the case. When it was formed, Southern Railway was a mostly passenger traffic railway and as such focused on electrifying their lines. Because of this, they didn't want to build any new steam locomotives as they would become redundant soon once electrification was completed, so they simply kept running the stock they had, regardless of its age or shortcomings. This is why so many southern, pre-grouping locomotives were able to be preserved. Had southern not been focused on electrification, it's likely the E2's would have been replaced much sooner, but as it stood, it was just more cost effective to keep them for odd jobs until steam was no longer needed. I appreciate your view, and I understand my tongue in cheek style isn't for everyone, but the intention of the video was to point out the fact the locomotives were flawed despite the reputation they have. That's why so few were built and why none were preserved. Hope this clears things up for you

@@TrainFactGuy Yes I understand that but you are now talking of a railway company that was a successor to the company that designed the engine, admittedly not of the best, many years before. At the time of Grouping the design was clearly outdated but for the reasons you have now given were retained. That they would prove unsuitable in dockland is no real surprise as the were designed for a different loading gauge and for a radius of turn found on the LBSC. One has to remember the Southern had one of the most restricted loading gauges and axle weights permitted. However, none of this makes your you tube contribution any less enjoyable!

Then why were they all scrapped while Duck's 57xx brethren continued working, being run into the ground or saved

​@@glynluff2595 look they ran for 60 years, and because they where so great at running in those 60 years and everyone loved them, they all got instantly scrapped the minute they retired something does not add up here

@@Space_Reptile Yes, you are quite correct. What you may recall about the sixties if you lived through them is we were sending hundreds of locomotives to scrap, ripping up railway tracks and bulldozing our cities to build a brave new world. In Norwich on the site of one of three stations the local scrap dealer was cutting up artillery pieces as well as rail wagons. My boss bought a whole railway village and marshalling yard! The restoration movement started much later with known engines and huge difficulties in attracting private funding. That the E2 outlived their usefulness is not the point. They had viability when introduced but carriage stock altered as did line usage and freight and passenger numbers. It is not always about the ability to boil water efficiently. While at distance many myopically mourn the passing of steam most only missed it as a spectacle. Urban air quality was awful, in winter even small market towns smelled of coal fumes and gas works reeked of tar and ammonia besides. Lineside fires were common but coal was retained for a long time because of the political clout of the miners. They were only defending hearth and home because there were few employment alternatives I doubt many delighted in the reality of being part of the’ coal hole cavalry’! In such circumstances the preservation of E2 was low on a list of types which included A3, A4, Kings, Schools, Merchant Navy, Black Five, Castles, Britannia’s et al. The article is still a good wind up though!!

Yep.

"I want to see the world!" Said Thomas "Get my own branch line, taking the express, maybe even really travel around the world at one point!" "No" Replied The Fat Controller

That’s right - Sir Topham Hatt later on gave him a branch line and Annie and Claribel as coaches.

@@mitch4527 Would a real-life E2 be able to make the round trip from Tidmouth to Ffarquhar and back without having to take on coal or water?

@@agentorange153Probably only to there, refill and come back. Honestly, he may be suited pulling passenger trains along branchlines, as depicted.

Hahaha

Huh, somehow I figured Jago would turn up here

HEY Thomas snapped

"You're too fat you need exercise"

poor put upon percy taking smack lol

Very fitting

Maybe he should stop looking in the mirror then...

No

@@grooviestglobe4907 yes

@@SteelManJ the *burn*

Yeah, I can accept that

It's like how the offroad vehicles in Mad Max Fury Road are actually terrible choices for offroading IRL.

And fictionally Thomas's water tanks magically refilled up on the fly to maintain his useful range. :-)

Makes him more an underdog

… This is why Thomas is a Nelson Reid 0-6-0 in my headcanon.

He huffs and puffs and oscillates, rushing to and fro.

Hes the really useless engine you would know hes the one he is one he is the really useless engine that we all know *repeats* irl thomas the bull**** engine

hes the shittiest even worse then a pacer and we all know

He’s a little blue embarrassment, Covering our hobby in harassment, Should he have come to stay? No! Thomas! Go away!

@@Rusty-the-datsun agreed, he’s an embarrassment to railway enthusiasm as a whole

that explains why i see thomas faces on j50 steam locomotives

My headcannon is that thomas was a J50 on the mainland, but got involved in an accident so bad he was rebuilt using plans based off the E2. However he was remade into a smaller, more reliable E2

That sounds about right, honestly

Very good at pulling passenger and freight? He can’t pull ten cars.

@@jaysmith1408 Really? I remember him pulling a little more, in the show. Well, I still think he's useful.

that’s kinda…Super dark!

That's why one talks about Thomas's brother, Rhomas

"what god would give a train a FACE" - robot chicken

@Justyn Hugh So He has a channel called Neo AutoX

@@trainman3984 true, we all know that.

You still remember him? Also I feel like I need to say this, dont go commentong your GWR Studios or anything like that in Neo's vids. He os perfectly happy living with hit current channel.

He sadly ran out of goofs

@@oncimio7085 He probably left RU-vid.

And even more ironically, the London Brighton and South Coast Railways E3, E4, E5 and E6 were better suited branch line tank engines than the E2 as their 0-6-2T wheel arrangement meant they had a larger coal capacity and better efficiency on coal and water. Which is why Thomas hated the engines that replaced him back in Brighton

If you want to know why they lasted so long despite their flaws, I recommend watching Chris Eden Green's video on the E2's: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE--TUHIsfiqpc.html

@Darío Nicolás Bermudez Luna it's also unfair to assume age is a reason not to compare one to the other. A Lada Riva is older than a Ford Focus, but the former could be built tomorrow and it will always be the worse of the two; as it was also inferior to other models of the period.

@Darío Nicolás Bermudez Luna rubbish. The S100 was not built for 'all-purposes', it was just also just a shunter. And you still can compare the two because they were built for the same purpose.

@@ChristheXelent so does Thomas being a E2 tank engine suit the plot a lot better as it mite have been a local tank engine around where Awdry was originally born?

@@eliotreader8220 highly unlikely. A local tank engine around the Romsey area in the early 1910s will have been of LSWR origin, not Brighton.

Ain't that the bloody truth

Hey, that's a great idea -- make a Train Simulator steamie with E2 graphics but a J50 physical model (but keep the braking stats as for the E2, just for fun)!

@@agentorange153 _Runaway theme picks up_

@@voltsiano116 Exactly!

Thomas was gonna be a j50 but idk how he became a E2

That's because one of the illustrators for the RWS, Reginald Payne only had references pics of E2s

I’ll see you at the next meeting!

Word of awdry said it happened to thomas as well. Wilbert never wanted thomas as an E2 a prime example of external features was following thomas comes to breakfast, when thomas gets a flat running board, not an LBSCR style one

Gordon also was built as an A1 but modified into an A3 in the 1930's.

@@oscarknight3588 The running board was an error in Dalby's original drawings which was perpetuated by later artists - the bufferbeams were at different heights - and Thomas was 'rebuilt' in order to resolve the issue. Ironically, Bachmann's model of Thomas perpetuates the error!

In America, George Carlin played the live action narrator. That always made me laugh.

And don't forget Henry, who was a failed one-off prototype until Sir Topham Hatt had him rebuilt into a "Black Five" (thus making him the only "Green Five" in the world)!

Even then its use as a yard switcher/shunter was limited due to its relatively long wheelbase, which would have restricted it to station and major yard use. Of course, I say that, but it's still smaller than the monstrous 0-6-0T saddletanks used in the US in the same era.

@@VestedUTuber It was also made for short haul freight

@@kommandantgalileo Problem is its low water capacity makes it unsuited for even that. It really needed a saddle tank setup, or maybe even a small tender.

The Coal Bunker Was Too Small, Making Them Guzzlers, I Kinda Wish They Can Build A New One, But Fix The Problems That Were Reported After Like- 40 Years Or Something

@@tankthehedgehog105 I mean, you basically described the LB&SC A1. Also, it's extremely rare to see new steam locomotives in standard gauge. As far as I know, the LNER A1 replica "Tornado" is the only modern-era standard gauge steam locomotive in existence, anything else operating today is either minimal-gauge or smaller and used for excursion or hobby use, or a preserved and/or restored heritage unit.

The trade-off, though, is a rougher ride at speed (which in fact is a major plot point in a number of episodes, most notably "Thomas's Milkshake Muddle")!

Honestly, best comment I've seen on this video so far. This is the best take here.

There was only one artist the picture of Thomases a J 50 was just a concept that the Reverend drew (There was a second artist but he kept Thomas is an E2 with modifications)

And it's not so bloody long

E2 1/2

"Thomas had never seen such bullshit before"

@@VestedUTuber The guess what Thomas is really useful So take that with your insult That gets smoked

@@Gmal51 The Joke Your Head

@@VestedUTuber then he must stop lookin at his reflection

Exactly, Thomas can not be an E2 if he's always stated to be "Really Useful"

Compared to other shunters at the time, they were far inferior

@@oscarknight3588 Far inferior, but still serviceable. At least it could do the job it was intended to do even if it sucked at it. I can think of a few that couldn't even do that.

Yeah but somebody bought them there must have been some incentive. My first guess is that they were cheap

@last Koresh Ahhh now that I can see! Or the _right_ palms were greased.

No, he only gets second prize -- the first one goes to Webb and his "Dreadnought" class compounds!

Pfff

Hi from Naracoorte

to bad he was an e2 he should been one of successful GNR gresley j50s

@@IndustrialParrot2816 sorry for the late response. As for your post you are correct if Thomas was a j50 (as the Reverend intended him to be) he would be more than capable to not only be useful, but also give him more greater responsibilities. One questions do they also pull branchline passenger trains?

@@kennethjoseph9309 no they were light frieght locos built by sir nigel gresley yes they were one of gresleys first designs

Edward's tactic instead was to be not only as useful as he could, but to also just be super nice and therefore always having someone who will back him up just because they liked or at least respected him. In later seasons, around S7 onwards, Thomas seems to adopt a lot of Edward's approach by being kinder, more encouraging and offering wiser advise to other engines.

@@Scrinwaipwr let me ask you this. Throughout the RWS I always find Thomas's personality changing from story to story (even in the TV series) if Edward is kind and wise than what kind of personality other than his cheekiness does he have to teach to everyone?

@@MLRTCL Really??

Nw = North Western

@@MLRTCL i was just guessing lol

@@icommentonpeoplesvideos yep

Yes. He supposed to stay as a J50 but I think there was confusion while illustrating Thomas’ first book in the RWS and he was changed.

That means that thomas is technically an experimental engine like lexi.

Or scientifically accurate Thomas like Star fox did with childhood shows don’t know the name of the user it would be Thomas we love you but scientifically accurate

Build one then.

Haven't got the basics for that now.

@@callum110597 XD!

He is! I think some people embellish history. Anyways, even if the E2's weren't that good, Thomas was really useful in the stories, and TV series, and that will never be challenged. We love Thomas 💙

Considering the failure of the E2 and Thomas's shorter size. I'm very surprised that Thomas didn't break down in BWBA movie

And maybe even get it working properly as well, plenty of other heritage railways have done that, although I hear they may be rebuilding one

And hopefully fix their flaws

@@MrPlaylist41244 A bit like the P2 being build right now is an amendment to the original design.

@AbdulAzeem Shaikh Yeah… this is the thing, if an E2 replica did exist it would just be in NER blue all the time instead of LBSCR mahogany. Which would be a massive shame.

I remember hearing about a group that wanted to New build an E2 many years ago, but I think the project has since been canceled. If any of you want to restart it, by all means you're more than welcome to and you have my support.

@@Pensyfan19 I heard about that too. Apparently they would of made a bigger bunker if they continued with the project.

Yes and that's why I guess Reverend. W. Awdry made thomas pull passenger coaches too as he was partially a LNER J50. It is a good thing that you pointed it out. And also if the E2s were that useless then they would have been disqualified at the test run only. But they qualified. They also had a tractive effort of 21,307 lbs and that's pretty impressive. It also means that they had sufficient shunting power. The E2s were also used as replacements for several shunting engines. So yes maybe they weren't the best locomotives but they weren't useless either. Their efficiency was just enough to be simply called good shunters or USEFUL shunting locomotives

@@debyanisen6472 think the criticism comes from the fact they essentially managed to have the limitations of both a freight train and a shunter.

Interesting

They were bad at goods, great at heavy shunting.

I just think that because of his build error, they had no use for him but didn't want to scrap him so they tricked the fat controller into buying like with Henry

Yeah that makes more sense

@@sebastianstudios7609 Just going to point out my head canon: Thomas *was* an E2 but was smuggled off by a worker who was also a steam nut. "he and the boys" essentially set about doing major reconstruction based on what they think would fix the design, but due to the great depression , they had to liquidate and sell their baby, and the Fat controller snapped it up for cheap, had it sent to a yard to smooth over the handiwork.

That changes are because the rev awdry never like thomas has an E2 and he try to change the model to look more to an j50

Indeed, even the TV version you can clearly see has a much larger bunker than the E2. Don't know why they didn't do that with the real thing, would seem like a fairly easy fix to it's biggest shortcoming. Though Thomas is also notably shorter than this locomotive, thus I suspect he wasn't really the same type to begin with.

@@quillmaurer6563 I'm not talking about the television model.

@@quillmaurer6563 Axle loading most likely, but also because in typical service a steam engine runs out of water multiple times before running out of coal. And the E2's water tanks were especially undersized relative to the boiler's steaming capacity. If anything they should have been turned into a saddle tank like Percy, or given much wider side tanks like Duck.

@@renegadeoflife87 So you're saying it would need a water capacity increase as well? Perhaps, but the video made no mention of water being a limitation, so I would suspect from that alone (you might have more info not mentioned in the video) that water wasn't really a problem, or at least was less a limiting factor in the locomotive's usefulness than it's coal capacity. Likewise it's a lot easier to add water with lineside water towers, which are spaced frequently, than to add coal, which requires a coal chute and other infrastructure usually only available in yards. My understanding is locomotives take on water frequently during a journey but usually carry enough coal for an entire journey and don't need any added, so infrastructure to add coal during a journey isn't available. As for your remarks on axle load limits, added water capacity would run into limits far quicker than added coal capacity.

Have to choose one OR the other -- can't have both, it would tip the engine onto its rear buffers!

Deep repressed memories subconsciously motivating himself to be more than a simple shunter and station pilot...so he doesn't want to be deemed useless by the railway director and tossed off to the scrap heap like his brethren.

Actually, the E2 and the Jinty are about the same size. The E2 maybe slightly longer, by about 2 feet, but the Jinty has the longer wheelbase, by 6 inches.

@@newobanproductions999 How did the Jinties have a better sized water supply, then?

@@CodenameBolts because the Fowler Jinty was based on a much older design (MR 2441 class of 1899) while E2 was practically drawn from scratch. The design of their running boards could also explain the water capacity differences.

Small bunker still. Too little coal for all that water now. E2s were just too big as far as tank engines go.

You just stole that quote from The Unlucky Guy.

Then again that’s not entirely true their own drivers didn’t like them. And before you use the excuse on how they lasted so long why would you scrap an engine that’s at least not terrible when you could just use them on other stuff were they good no but were there useful I guess

Enlarging the coal bunker sounds like it would have been pretty simple. Might have needed to extend the buffers to do so, but still seems relatively trivial compared with some of the more major modifications that were done to some locomotives.

The Coal Bunker Needs To Be Extended To If They Want To Build A New One, Because They We’re Known To Be Coal Guzzlers (Horrible Coal Mileage) And I Think They Would Have To Make It 13 Ft Instead Of 16 Ft So It Can Be A Little Bit Easier For Them To Turn On The Tracks A Little Better

IKR!!😂😂😂😂😂

Just think of Thomas a modified E2 and your idea happened fictionally. I think he's that. See my old comment. Former fan, outgrew it by my 12th birthday and got nostalgic 2 months ago.

Not to mention, in the TV show, Annie and Clarabel are small coaches.

And I thought I was the only one who thinks about that

Good head canon

@@gandhangpramesthidananjaya4127 thanks.

But for a long time afterwards, the other engines laughed at Thomas, and said: "Look, there's Thomas, who wanted to pull a train, but ran out of fuel before leaving the platform!"

The crux of the problem for the E2s was probably their boilers - they came from a previous class of locomotives known as the I2 (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB%26SCR_I2_class), which already suffered from steaming issues due to their boilers being holdovers from their predecessors, the I1s (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LB%26SCR_I1_class). The fireboxes were too small, so, considering Thomas is notably shorter than the class he was based on, I'd say it's a distinct possibility. Range issues would persist, however.

@@Shunteration interesting.

@@Shunteration range issues?

It couldn't go very far, due to how little coal and water it can store.

I like to think he had the flaws all e2s had until he saved james with the breakdown train

@@Burning_Gojira_1995 agreed sir

gresleys J50s were much also thomas was supposed to be one but he got drawn as an e2 instead

@@IndustrialParrot2816 the story is actually that Reginald Payne, the original artist for the second RWS book, was a southern man and used an E2 for reference rather than the J50 that Awdry wished for.

So the E2s were good enough right?

Meanwhile,the LNER J50sdid THE SAME jobs as the E2s and did them correctly

@@davidantoniocamposbarros7528 the J50 was designed by a different man on a different railway and suffered from issues with cylinder accessibility for maintenance

May be a bit of a stretch, but will *this* engine be featured on Dead on Arrival? (This makes the video's 999th comment.)