Why Troy Worked 

Right now, i cant think of a better one, If you add together Style and storytellin through the Action.

Brad Pitt was incredible in that fight scene. Looked so fluid

Agreed, haven't seen a better sword fight in film tbh

The ending fight in 1960s Macbeth is good.

​@@Farron6yea he really sold how bad ass and slick Achilles was through the whole movie. I love how he did all of it himself too. I wouldn't have guessed that

That's an interesting point others have made as well

I thought the same but I think it's both. I mean the opening scene shows pitts bare ass lying in bed next to 2 girls. So it probably wasn't the dramatic tragic epic Pitt imagined. But as Achilles lost his blood lust and fools hunt for glory after being with Cassandra, respecting hector and meeting a real king in Priam. The actual Pitt probably gave it his all for the likes of bana and their duel and respect for actors like Cox and O'Toole and Sean Bean of course

No he really wasn't.

True I always felt like Achilleus/Brad Pitt idc attitude was on purpose it just worked in this role.

That's why I never noticed that he wasn't fully into it. I never even thought of it because I just figured that was the characters attitude not brads

Flightplan, The Martian and Jupiter Ascending are the ones I've seen where he doesn't

@@BetterWithBob still feel sorry for him though since he can't keep a job cause he's always dying lol

​​@@BetterWithBob He's in The Hitman game as a Rich Tycoon And yes he "dies" in it too

he's one of the only ones to even survive.

He survived in Bravo Two Zero. And it's a war movie.

Absolutely.

I believe they're real in the film too

One commdnt I read states When he cuts off Apollos statues head then dies by an arrow they say Apollo guided that arrow as revenge for descerating his Temple. His fellow soldier even warned him saying "Apollo sees all".

@@patrickirish8091 Achilles desecrating the temple of Apollo is the event that set his doom in motion and this is clearly portrayed in the film. The gods are definitely real in this movie, they just arent on screen much

The intent may not have been there but it’s definitely a possibility

@@BetterWithBob I mean in the film Achilles pretty much settles it, he says something along the line of "I know more of the Gods then you ever will... I've met them".

That scene was kind of ruined for me considering it was Priam's fault, not listening to Hector is the reason Hector now has to go out and die.

@@jmchez so sorry I forgot to reply. You're absolutely right there

Yeah he could lobby for it now he's got the clout from GOT

Odysseus would get killed… Jokes aside, would love to see Sean Bean do that movie too

I totally understand why they didn't thou. Part of the magic in this adaptation of the Ilyad is that we never directly see the gods or other mythological beings. It can be as realistic as it could have the gods pulling strings unseen. And the unknown creates this tension and athmosphere. Is Achilles an actual demi gid here? He could be. Did Apollo and others influence events like in the Ilyad? Maybe? But in the Odyssey everything is directly tied to Gods and Beasts of the mythos. So you'd be forced to take away from the first movies open possebilities. CGI and what not.

@@TrafalgarWaterDLaw-dl5cm You could have all the machinations of the gods hidden behind a veil unseen by the audience/characters. The monsters and such would be cool with modern AI enhanced stop motion.

@@BetterWithBob the sad part : WB did have plans for an Odyssey movie after Troy turned out to be the highest grossing sword and sandal movie to date. ...they just didn't have any such plans that were related to this version in particular. the list of attempts so far : -2008 : a space version. with George miller approached. under brad Pitt's company Plan B, because chance has a sense of humor. -2009 : a different version, produced by Gianni Nunnari (who was fresh off 300), and written by Ann Peacock . to be directed by Jonathan liebesman (who had yet to be assigned to Wrath of the titans. and would also pitch a Julius caesar movie for Warner later on) -2013 : still the space version. but with David heyman co-producing. -2014 : still the version on earth with Gianni Nunnari, now co-written by Jeremy doner *, and for director they hired... ...Fedor Bondachurk. yup. that one. * doner who had then submitted to WB a Napoleon script described as scarface-like. initially meant for Rupert sanders, but Zack Snyder later was interested by it -2019 : the last we heard of it, Mel Gibson was courted to play odysseus. peacock, doner and nunnari were still listed. and then... ...that's it, for now. after that the flu happens, oceans rise, empires fall, and the version of the odyssey to make it to the big screen is an indie one with Ralph Fiennes and Juliette Binoche, focused on the second half with the "once back on Ithaca" part.

It certainly is

The only truly canonic thing about the film 😂

100th like 👍🏻

Thanks so much 😊

Yes she's so underrated, and not just in this movie. She's a really terrific actress despite being "low key" in terms of fame

Me too XD

Yeah, by Pitt as well. I don’t understand why he felt Achilles was portrayed as purely heroic. Hector was a purely heroic figure, and the true main character of the Iliad (the original story ends with his death). Achilles is an anti hero with aspirational qualities, but the first time he truly does something selfless in the movie, is in the very end, when he hands over Hector’s body to Priam, sends his men home and goes back in Troy to save Briseis during the sacking of the city. In Greece, we consider him the definitive version of Achilles, probably the best interpretation we’ll ever see.

@@alexman378 oh really? You're in Greece? I'd be very interested to hear how the movie was received there

@@BetterWithBob Extremely well, actually. Most people really love it and still talk about it. Everyone acknowledges the inaccuracies, but it’s pretty much agreed that there’s no real way of making a satisfying 2-2.5 hour feature about the entire Trojan War if you’re going to be 100% accurate. Pitt and Bana are always seen as stand outs in their roles, seen as the definitive versions of those characters, even by those who didn’t feel as strongly for the film.

@@alexman378 It reminds me of the Last Samurai discourse it's very well loved in Japan despite the inaccuracies but for some reason a lot of westerners want to convince everyone that they hate it over there when they don't 😅

😊😊😊

I confirm.

Literally me everytime I catch it on cable tv!

Ooh very good point

If you watch him in the duel with Hektor you can even see that a lot of his movements are just...unnatural, as if some other force were moving his body out of danger.

​​@@dungeonsanddobbers2683I think the movie's emphasis on his surreal yet not acrobatic agility is what makes him feel so utterly unstoppable. We have good visual motifs for the likes of Hercules. But Achilles style of combat is not really described beyond his rage, the film really bridges this gap without utilising anything which borders on stereotype or feels like a trope.

I started to dislike the Trend of based in reality but i love when you could Chose to believe in the supernatural but also can have a rational explanation If you want one. Archillies depecition Made me question His Mortal Status at the time and i Loved how you can See that even after the First step of Chinese Telephone there would be one that Heard "invurnable but for.."

​@@blue-pi2ktone of if not THE most common titles/nicknames Homer calls Achilles in the Illiad is "swift footed Achilles" which would imply that he is famously fast and agile

Very fair lol

@@BetterWithBob also Achilles is basically an anime character. He throws that spear like a god and everyone goes N-NANI?!?!

Mine is the final duel in Kurosawa's 'Sanjuro' 🌊

I think a lot of it comes from bitterness, jealousy or some kind of insecurity. I saw it so much in journalism of the 2000s and 2010s, where people seemed to delight in being so vicious to people's appearances

I had no clue that there actually was anyone who thought she wasn't good-looking enough!? Like seriously, in this film - she's easily one of the ten most beautiful women i have ever seen! What the FUCK are people talking about?!

I’m guilty as charged. Over the years I’ve grown to appreciate her beauty and performance.

She literally isn’t beautiful enough when Helen is described as the most beautiful woman of all time It doesn’t really matter in the context of a movie, but it is still a factual statement

@@8301TheJManten most beautiful woman ever? That is extreme. Hollywood women tend to have masculine features. Everyday girls in small towns look better than virtually every celebrity. The 20 year old girl working at your local McDonald’s is better looking than 90% of Hollywood women

They had worked together in Black Hawk Down beforehand and I think I read an interview where Eric said they'd already become good friends, so in that sense it was very easy for them to be brothers

And that's already a difficult list to choose from lol

Thank you :)

I didn't find her that pretty either, for me vivien Leigh, Catherine zeta Jones and Natalie Portman are that level of high beauty

I'm surprised to see Natalie Portman mentioned. While I think she is beautiful, to me she's more that 'pretty but not too pretty' that doesn't make people feel insecure type, where she can still be cast as the relatable lead and women won't hate her lol

@BetterWithBob I think she was at her prime during the prequels and she had nice skin and small doll shape face and features. I guess that's what she shares with Jones and leigh

When I watched it as a young girl I hated Helen so much for being so beautiful that I couldn't actually focus on the movie. To this day I feel bad for it

@@kasiarybka6786 Oh wow lol

Alas I was aware from the beginning because of the message boards back in the day

And he warns that attacking the ships is a bad idea, as it may unite the Greeks. Hector is smart enough to know that the real war is between him and Achilles, and if some conflict among the Greeks has pushed Achilles to sit out, they'd be foolish to risk putting Achilles back on the field... And look what happens.

Recently rewatched it and all I can say is my God 😃

@@BetterWithBob Your quality will be known among your enemies, before ever you meet them. I believe Kingdom of Heaven was destroyed by the theatrical cut. That cut makes no sense. Hopefully it'll get a resurgence at some point and be reevaluatedv by the masses. God wills it

I watched it after it came out and had done all this reading about it so I knew to watch the director's cut first. I didn't see the theatrical one until years later and was like "wow this is nothing"

@@BetterWithBob I watched it in like 2007, but I was fortunate enough that the person who showed me it, showed the directors cut

@@BetterWithBob I always looked at 2010 Robin Hood as a sequel to Kingdom of Heaven. Kingdom ended with Richard, and Robin Hood began with Richard.

Yeah while I was editing, even I regretted not talking about him more

It's so tragic 😭

"I have endured what no one on earth has endured before. I kissed the hands of the man who killed my son." "I loved my boy from the moment he opened his eyes until the moment you closed them." "How many cousins have you killed? How many sons and fathers and brothers and husbands? How many, brave Achilles?" Peter O' Toole wasn't pregnant but the way he delivers these lines *chef's kiss*

Ah I'm sure they all love the idea of Brad Pitt challenging them to a fight 😁

You speak le truth 😄

It varies from scene to scene, sometimes you can definitely notice Pitt is done with the whole thing and then the next scene he is motivated again, makes it a bit obvious that movies arent shot in order. If he started out motivated and then lost interest gradually it could fit the story, but it doesnt. Still, I think he did a decent enough job and Achilles isnt the main character, hes just this unstoppable killing machine side character.

​@@TheSuperappelflapAchilles isn't the main character? Hard disagree there. Achilles and Hector are the two main characters, and though Eric Bana gives an incredible performance that steals the show, the movie is definitely Achilles centric. The monologues by Odysseus at the beginning and end of the movie essentially confirm this. The opening monologue is a perfect description of the driving force behind everything Achilles does, and in the closing monologue Achilles is literally the last word spoken in the film.

@@jedirayden Well obviously Pitt has a big role, but if you look at screentime the movie has like 15 or 20 major characters so if one of them isnt performing 100% it doesnt impact the quality of the movie as much, thats what I wanted to say. And the story ultimately is about Helen and Paris and the fall of Troy, its mostly told from the Trojans perspective, depicting the Greeks as ruthless conquerors who dont respect their own gods and kill women and children.

Well there you go

There were iron weapons in those times, but they were extremely rare. Without the ability to refine low grade iron ore, the only source of iron that could be used to forge weapons was meteoric iron. But there are examples of such weapons from the bronze age. And myths about them.

You can get it here on RU-vid. I bought it recently enough

I suppose I see Achilles as the main because it opens and ends with him. Though Hector is definitely the traditional hero of the piece

Achilles IS the main character. If he wasn't, Eric Bana would have been playing him and Brad Pitt would have been playing Hector. Eric Bana absolutely steals the show though, with a brilliant performance that you can tell he fully committed to. But the opening monologue is a perfect description of the impetus behind everything Achilles does (it describes men wanting their name to last through the ages, which is Achilles to a T) and the closing monologue, well, Achilles is literally the last spoken word in the film.

You are confusing "main character" with "hero". Achilles is most definitely the main character, followed closely by Paris and Helen respectively, then Hector, then agammemnon, etc... "Main character" is not a description of their virtues or flaws, it's a description of their role in a story or generally a plot. Achilles is not the "pov" character persé, but he is the perspective we grow the most accustomed to, the character we return pretty much the most to, he has the most growth and general character conflict, etc... We get the most personal backstory with him, down to his sexlife, his relationships, his mother, the prophecy, whether or not he can die, whether or not he's a demi-god, etc... To say Troy isn't about Achilles and instead about Hector, would be absolutely delusional, and contradicted by the very run-time of the movie. Hector was definitely somewhat heroic, but heroism does not a main character make. (I would argue that there is no real way to say any character here is heroic when we are inherently dealing with nobles, kings, and the generals that serve these nobles, along with all the conscripted young men and mercenaries forced to die for the formers' vices, within a pre-feudal, tribal, authoritarian society that uses state-religion to legitimize authority. All of the people we see on screen have, directly or indirectly, blood, tyranny and exploitation on their hands. Hector was only "heroic", because he fights to protect his people from an imminent invasion. But everybody else seems to be in it for profit, "glory" and petty personal satisfaction, including Paris. There are no heroes in a world that breeds villains up to the highest and most profitable positions of power and ONLY showcases THEM as the important characters in a story.)

Hopefully the "cinematic Lizzy Bennet" line got a lol as well ;)

@@BetterWithBob it did

@@songweretson Mission accomplished lol

​@@songweretsoni dont get it. Pls explain

@@TCt83067695 “I have notes” is something I say that Bobby likes to quote

Ah thanks for the heads up XD

Love her so much in Wicker Park and Inglorious Basterds as well. Keep meaning to check out Mr Nobody too

He actually sounded great

Haha lot of people seem to feel the same

Why thank you XD

The soundtrack is inferior to the theatrical. Otherwise it definitely is the superior version.

@@happycompy I disagree 100%, director's cut has by far the better soundtrack. Especially in the Hector vs Achilles fight, the soundtrack just dances to the beat of the fight with such grace. I never understood why some people prefer the theatrical version of the soundtrack.

What took me away from the fight in the Directors Cut is that I recognize the music as being the main theme from the Tim Burtons Planet of the Apes. That kinda ruins the experience for me. I would have rather they compose an original score instead.

@@cipangoreng Can't argue with that. It's still a superior theme and a superior scene, but I can understand where you're coming from. Glad I never watched planet of the apes.

Yep that's next on my list lol

@@BetterWithBob Can't wait for that it's also a guilty pleasure if mine 😅

@@KeyBladeMaster-Dan I also used to know one of the cast members, so hoping to get an interview with him as well

One specific one or them all?

@@BetterWithBob most of them. Even though Brad Pitt is checked out, he is still likable and attractive in this movie.

Talk about life imitating art 😂😂😂😂

Thank you for your thoughts :)

And like...Briseis was Achilles's lover in The Iliad as well. That's canon in every version, and he even considers her his wife. So at most he's bi

To be fair, the relationship between Achilles and Patroclus has been described as homoerotic by many ancient sources, going back to the 5th century BC. This isn't a case of the fans trying to canonise their fanon ship - there's legitimate reason to show these two characters as lovers without changing their story.

​@@CM-ss5pe was homoerotic even a word back then?

Write a fanfic spoke so deeply to my soul 😅

​@@BradLad56 No, but they still had words to describe same-sex male relationships, like 'erastes/eromenos'.

The issue is that we dont know for sure that that city is the same one as the city described by the ancient greeks. Its not like they dug up a signpost that said Troy on it. The location and the dating fits, but we cant be sure.

@@TheSuperappelflap Yeah, that make sense, even back then the scientist didn't known what layer corresponded to the mythological city of Troy.

We should also note that the supposed historic location of Troy is also situated in Turkey, a nation noted for their authoritarian regime running on state-fueled propaganda that largely uses nationalism and religion as a justification for mass exploitation. That the turkish government would openly endorse and let's not forget, FUND, any sources that claim said site as the original city of troy, is perfectly in line with their policies, and we should ALWAYS be wary of that kind of "evidence". Also keep in mind that Turkey and Greece have been in an almost constant state of war up until the late 20th century, and national and ethnical rivalries fueled by cynical elite propaganda to amass a loyal, brainless following, is very easy to establish when you have a history of national rivalries to bank on. To claim a site in Turkey as the definitive Troy is very much a tool for that purpose. Location-wise, it seems to make sense. Turkey is RELATIVELY close to greece, accessible by the mediterranean like it's described in the myths, and it has several locations along the coastline which could very well be considered major trading hubs AND strategically sound barriers that protect the land via a blockade. I am, of course, no archeology expert nor a history buff by any means, and so I'll leave the ACTUAL science to other people. I'm just saying that no concrete proof exists of Troy's existence, only plausible options. Turkey's coastline being probably the most plausible location for it.

It helps that it's recognisable but also public domain lol

No way you compared Iliad to Percy fucking Jackson

Very true

... I wasn't aware we were being watched. You weren't recording, were you? It'd be problematic trying to hunt that young lady down after all these years... 😅

Damn, I was born in 2004, now I wish I could have experienced it in theaters, we needed a re-release for it's 20th anniversary.

Thank you for your lovely comment :) There will be a Kingdom of Heaven video someday XD

I've been waiting for someone to acknowledge that joke for three months now 😂

​@@BetterWithBobWolfgang Petersen was still a great director, I mean, the man made Das Boot, can't believe Peter O'Toole called him a fool, classic of Peter I guess😅

@@BetterWithBob I was looking for a comment explaining the joke, because I didn`t get it I`m afraid.

@@BetterWithBob I loved it. I just happened to be thinking the other day, it was about that latest episode of the boys where...things happen to Hughie, that I cant write on youtube, and americans were all up in arms about it going too far and being obscene, when it was a pretty mild scene by European standards. All I could think was, these people better never go to Berlin. Germans are nuts.

@@steinstemmer8963 Germans are famous for their...sexual deviancy and affinity with...well things involving whips and leather and stuff like that. As well as a lot of homo-erotic stuff.

It's an excuse to come over to Ireland so I can show it to you ^_^

I suppose Sean Bean might not have been considered a movie star enough to carry it, especially since it would need to be huge

In Italy we have a series in 8 episodes done in 1968 with Irene Papas as Penelope, produced by the RAI (Italian national TV). Very strange and fully faithful to the source material, even with some lines straight from the poem spoken by a voice-over, like a greek chorus: ru-vid.com/video/%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BE-mKcH8ZvqzZw.htmlsi=_x16jG1I_TN53on4

Sequel time!

Yeah there's a lot of schadenfreude, usually from women who were told they weren't pretty/hot too or are just insecure with it on their own, and the men who resent that beautiful women aren't interested in them, so when they get the chance to tear someone else down...

Thanks for watching :)

Alexander. Hands down. As much as I dislike Troy for the "demythification" thing, Alexander is worse. Here's this legendary Greek General getting rekt and pulling wins out his arse. It's worse in Alexander because unlike Troy, it's not a fucking myth! There are LIBRARIES filled with records of his life. I HATED Alexander.

I avoided Alexander like the plague, and the fact that there are four different cuts floating around suggests there's not much that can be done to change it

Ooh how so?

@BetterWithBob it made me appreciate everything. Sometimes I'll just stand there and look at the sky and everything around me cuz I know I'm mortal so any day can be my last.

Thanks for watching 😊

Yeah I don't bother with trailers anymore, because they either spoil everything or misrepresent it

Oh I know fully well who Natasha Richardson was, she was iconic in our house. In fact, when watching Love Actually for the first time, I thought Emma Thompson was her

Well it was both. From afar, Achilles bent over her looks like he could have been about to attack, and as I said, Paris wouldn't have cared much about waiting to find out

Ah the poor French, they're just too fun not to make fun of (I say this as someone with French friends who regularly gets made fun of for his nationality, it's nice to let the shoe be on the other foot once in a while)

@@BetterWithBob curious to know your nationality but yeah it is always funny to pick on the French with the Surrender jokes (this happens a lot in USA). France has one of the strongest military histories in the Globe but they are still the butt of most the surrender jokes.

Yeah they weren't going for realism with the dialogue. It was more Shakespearean or heightened

Thank you very much :)

@@ArtilleryAffictionado1648 me too tbh

Yeah unfortunately Joss Whedon's influence with an emphasis on bathos and 'self aware' humour still hasn't been expunged from today's movies. You can't have earnestness with self awareness. You have to take yourself seriously and be somewhat cringe at times

She reminds me a lot of Deborah Kerr from the Golden Age of Hollywood. She had a lot of versatility and no scandals to be remembered by, and she just was consistently good in everything, so now her work speaks for itself

@@kodama44 why thank you 😊