Why We Venerate Images 

My mind is completely blown away with the implications of this. Being made in the image of God truly changes how we ought to act and be in reality. Growing up protestant taught me about God, but discovering Orthodoxy has shown me God.

Let us pray Jonathan will appear on Joe Rogan

I'm happy the online Orthodox Christian community has been making more videos about Veneration lately. The pushback and attacks have been numerous.

Thank you for this content! I am a protestant brother; however, lately, I've been joyously Blessed by the Orthodox Church! I am so glad to know that there is a great value that I can now understand on this topic! ❤️

The scholarly approach is necessary for apologetical reasons, but this approach really helps deepen the understanding. Thank you!

The reasons protestants get hung up on the veneration vs worship distinction is most protestants from non liturgical anti eucharistic traditions never actually worship God, they simply venerate Him. And of course the other facet of their lack of understanding is the west's denial of the essence/energies distinction which makes a proper understanding of how God works through His saints an impossibility.

The concept of radiance from glorified humans reminds me of when we meet celebrities. We do not meet the human, but their radiant principality from the light of our screens, and they have to hide their face to be in public. Although this is a perversion of divine radiance, it's a modern relatable phenomena to help us understand hierarchy.

Now I see people in general entirely differently. This video has healed my perception of the human race and individuals around me. Also, so many of the Saints sayings and Scriptures make better sense to me now. I’m so thankful for you Jonathan and for this video, and praise God that these scholars and detail seekers have gotten enough attention to bring this topic up and consequently this video as a balsam and a healing to our (or rather my) thinking.

God bless you & thank you for your recent participation in the Exodus series.

I'm an Anglican and I pray with icons. They are very helpful for me to draw near to God and the spiritual reality through them.

I can’t tell you how impressed I am with your work. You and your brother are absolutely geniuses and I just love you guys so much.

One of the best videos on this issue I’ve seen that really gets to the heart of the matter. Thank you, Jonathan.

This video is exceptionally timely. Thank you Jonathan

Short answer that unpacks into a proper understanding of "Why we venerate images": Because of the Incarnation!

Thank you for this video. You are helping me a lot in going from atheism to Orthodox Christianity, this kind of interpretation make so much sense.

Awesome video. Thank you for taking the time to make this.

Such a treasure. Many thanks for your ongoing work

Many protestants would at least agree that it's inappropriate or even sacrilegious to burn or desecrate a Bible. Or the American flag. Or say a picture of their loved ones. I think we can at least agree that there are situations in which it is appropriate to have some level of respect for a material object. This is what we mean by veneration. I wish we could at least get to the level where we all understand that worship and veneration are not the same thing.

I think this is one of your best videos yet. Wonderfully well said. Godspeed

I'm so glad that you made this video! I recently watched the video on veneration of icons made by the channel Truth Unites, and the whole time I was listening to him talk, I imagined what you might have to say about his arguments. Your response to it all, did not disappoint!

This was simply superb! Thank you, Jonathan. I hadn't followed the online discussions, but watched this and it's a truly beautiful video

When I listen to Protestants on topics like this, they make God sound so arbitrary and pointless. What I love about Pageau is his videos are always focused on what is the meaning. God creates for a purpose

Man is theomorfic…this was a fantastic explanation Jonathan. As a born and bread Protestant I thank you for making all this so clear 🙏

Man, to think, Jonathan is probably THE reason why I'm seeing Orthodox and Orthodoxy trending on Twitter all the time. - I started seeing his videos way back between 2017-2018. It makes you think, when you sow seeds, even though you don't see any response or changes to the content you're putting out in the world, if you're patient, you'll eventually see those fruits come to bear.

I had followed some of the online debates about this topic, and this is actually the best explanation I’ve heard. Thank you Jonathan.

I often find my thoughts wandering during prayer an icon of christ helps me keep my mind on God.

This is a wonderful exploration of this topic. Thank you.

Jonathan I just wanted to say thank you for your work in words of wisdom. Helping me and others to grow deeper in our understanding of The Word. I have also replied recently to a video you did with Mrs. P. Discussing Communion…She was very kind in her reply. Of all the content on RU-vid, yours and The Peterson’s are the most worth while. Keep an eye out for my logo. I will be a regular and may be chiming in from time to time. Best regards PVVP

Jonathan, the amount of times you knock me down completely is quite alarming. You changed my whole perception of life and I truly love you sir. Thank you for changing my life

Oh man... the parable of the prodigal son makes a bit more sense now.

Great stuff as always, @Jonathan Pageau. 19:50 - Having become Orthodox recently, I still need to deepen my understanding of veneration and worship. However, thinking of it in terms of hierarchy helps: the way I honor the American flag is different than the way I honor my next-door neighbor vs my boss vs the president vs my bishop vs my mother vs a saint vs God Himself. Worship is truly different and belongs to God alone.

"The 2nd Commandment is a promise that God will give us an image of himself, that God will restore the image of himself that has been tarnished and broken at the fall." I've had the sense that people who reject iconography on the grounds of idolatry aren't too far off base, except that idols are a sort of inversion of icons. Icons are the true instantiation, the fullness that has now been revealed, which idols are a corruption of. Do you have thoughts on this?

Thanks for this! Once I began to see that we are ALL created in the image of God - because we ARE images of God - it changed everything about the way I live and the way I see and treat others.

Exceptionally good video Jonathan

Sooo good Jonathan!

Best explanation of Venerating Images

Great points. Helpful.

best content on this topic so far :) 👍

Glory to God ❤

thank you! God bless you!

Wow, that mention of the angel looking like a sphinx is very thought provoking, especially when considering how old the structure is and how occult imagery continues to pop up in things throughout history.

Excellent video! You’re doing Oscar’s work!

Great job, Jonathan. And helpful! I have a deep certainty that Jesus is the very image of God that was given, through Himself the Word, to Adam/Eve, - not just in some metaphysical, "spiritual" way but also His very human, and physical nature. In eternity, the Nazarean preceded Adam. We were made in his real image. Something like that...:-)

Great contribution to this "RU-vid theology" discussion, and a thoughtful way of re-framing this. For some of us who hold to a "reformed catholic" faith, the crucial issue is not whether or not people can venerate icons: if someone does that from the sort of theological framework you describe, I really do not see a problem. For many of us the issue is that Nicaea II anathematized to Hell anyone who does not venerate icons, which would include a great many of us Christians today, as well as many of the earliest fathers as well. I believe it would have been more helpful for them to approach this along the lines of Romans 14. But all that said, the real question is this: Have you already made a video about Prester John? Have I missed that one?

This is why Catholics greatly appreciate and thank the Saints and Sacred Scripture for the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Even if you're not Catholic, it's worth looking at it through the Socratic Method. God bless.

Those verses from the apocryphal life of Adam and eve shouldn't be taken as inspired, but they are absolutely a window into the understanding and culture of the early church, excellent quotation and should absolutely be considered as reliable for examining the theological understanding of our forefathers. Brilliant work Jonathan.

Glory to God

I really enjoy and appreciate Jonathan’s opinions and insights but to be honest, iconography has never sat well with me. Also knowing that at the earliest, iconography wasn’t accepted by the Catholic and Orthodox Church until the 6th century. I just have to go back to the early church and apostles and what they did and did not do. Probably why I’m a Protestant

Reminds me of a powerful passage in Gregory the Theologian: “If [the devil] wrestle against you to a fall through avarice, showing you all the Kingdoms at one instant and in the twinkling of an eye, as belonging to himself, and demand your worship, despise him as a beggar. Say to him relying on the Seal [of baptism], ‘I am myself the Image of God; I have not yet been cast down from the heavenly Glory, as you were through your pride; I have put on Christ; I have been transformed into Christ by Baptism; worship thou me.’ Well do I know that he will depart, defeated and put to shame by this; as he did from Christ the first Light, so he will from those who are illumined by Christ.” Oration on Baptism 40.10 The word used is “proskuneo” which is usually translated “venerate” as opposed to “worship” in Orthodox theology

People who condemn image Veneration, and say it wasn't seen in the Early Church, don't realise how really strange it would have been for the Jews in the Days of Christ to see men Bowing before Christ and worshipping Him. It would not be strange for us, because we have established the Diety of Christ, that He was God, but the Jews thought he was Merely Man, son of a Capenter, do you think many of them believed that he was the Express image of the Father? Think about the Woman anointing Christ with the ointment. To the Jews it was all pointless, there would never have believe that the God of Israel who Moses saw on the mount has incarnated in Human flesh. I think that is why the Doctrine of the Incarnation is so peculiar to The making and Veneration of images. And the funny thing is that Many people, Protestants included kiss images of their loved ones and don't for a minute stop to think about what there are doing.

Hello, I am from Georgia. Saint Andrew is a missionary of Mother of God to Georgia and founder of the Georgian Orthodox Church. Before he came to Georgia, Saint Andrew was called to Holy Mother of God and she announced the mission Saint Andrew was to complete - to preach Christianity in Georgia, the land of the Holy Mother of God. Apostle Andrew carried with him an icon given to him by the Holy Mother of God. According the historical chronicles and sources he left this icon to people to use it while pray. If icon is idol why the Holly Mother of God gave Apostle Andrew it and why he carried it with him?

I’m in Rome right now viewing the basilicas for the first time. Trying to reconcile these massive artworks of carvings & images with the Protestant imagery of the “old rugged cross.” The two seem so far apart. One thought I’ve had is that paganism was 100% practiced through carved image worship & I think the commandment is there to separate God’s people from pagan people. Jesus was different & wanted to be worshipped in spirit & in truth. Veneration of images confuses me as a Christian b/c frankly it’s hard to see the difference in that & idolatry when in every basilica I’ve gone into people are kneeling & praying in front of images that are not Christ. Also interestingly Jesus left us nothing but eye witness accounts b/c it’s not faith by sight that matters to him. It’s Not seeing & believing that he praises all throughout the gospels. He said said do one thing in remembrance of him & that was communion not remember him through veneration of his mom or disciples. Jesus’s blood & body cared for in your heart mind & soul. Worshipped intimately through spirit & truth not veneration & not through sacrificial acts of others. Him alone. God alone.

From my understanding of the critique, the charge laid is that the cultic use of icons is not only absent from the early church, but consistently and regularly denied until several centuries later. Saying “it might have taken Christian’s time to fully understand the scope” at 19:09 doesn’t do justices, in my opinion, to the divergence we see from the early churches explicit rejection of cultic uses of icons, to the later councils who anathematize those who don’t venerate icons. It seems there is more going on then just a change in understanding, but an actual 180 turn to require something that was once prohibited. I’m a big fan of your work, Jonathan, but I do think the critique makes some significant points. It has been insightful listening to representatives from the different Christian traditions discuss this topic, so thank you for adding your voice to the conversation!

I wasn't expecting a sort of Newmanite development approach from Pageau, but this is probably the most convincing one of those that I've heard. Most EOs try to argue icons were a deposit directly from the Apostles.

It's so interesting that we have the "older brother not receiving the inheritance" pattern again in the story about the Devil and Adam... Wow!

Thank you

Amen

So while, the Judaic people had cherubim and whatnot, even on the ark of the covenant, they didn't pray to them or use them as intermediaries to God the way Christian Orthodoxy does with icons. For instance, Catholics have statues/sculptures but they don't pray to them directly or bow in front of them, definitely not kiss them.

I consider myself below catholics, haven't watched. just humbled and excited. ly Jonathan.

Thankyou for making this video, I still disagree with the veneration of icons and it is a large part of why I am not Orthodox or Catholic. However I find your argument or reasons why you practice Christianity in this manner the most compelling and honest in relation to others that I have listened to. Please continue to engage in these conversations, I really got a lot out of what you said and feel like I better understand the pro Icon Veneration argument.

THIS🙏🏽🌟🙌🏽

"Then shall the just shine as the sun, in the kingdom of their Father. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." - Matthew 13:43 "And he was transfigured before them. And his face did shine as the sun: and his garments became white as snow." - Matthew 17:2

I have the utmost respect for J. Pageau. I'm struggling to understand not the use but the veneration of images. Why did it appear so late in the Church's history? Why don't we find one occurrence in the Scriptures? Many apostles died but the first Christians did not venerate their images, nor Jesus's. They could have had His most reliable image. Also, the apocryphal text is nice, but we already know why Satan was expelled from heaven. The reason is found in Scriptures and it contradicts the one from the apocryphal text.

This is a very good response and the topic itself is important. It brings to mind a passage from Jung’s Aion: “These few, familiar references should be sufficient to make the psychological position of the Christ symbol quite clear. Christ exemplifies the archetype of the self. He represents a totality of a divine or heavenly kind, a glorified man, a son of God sine macula peccati, unspotted by sin. As Adam secundus he corresponds to the first Adam before the Fall, when the latter was still a pure image of God, of which Tertullian says: “And this therefore is to be considered as the image of God in man, that the human spirit has the same motions and senses as God has, though not in the same way as God has them.” Origen is very much more explicit: The imago Dei imprinted on the soul, not on the body, is an image of an image, “for my soul is not directly the image of God, but is made after the likeness of the former image.” Christ, on the other hand, is the true image of God, after whose likeness our inner man is made, invisible, incorporeal, incorrupt, and immortal. The God-image in us reveals itself through “prudentia, iustitia, moderatio, virtus, sapientia et disciplina.” St. Augustine distinguishes between the God-image which is Christ and the image which is implanted in man as a means or possibility of becoming like God.” You are so right it saying we aught to rejoice in the face of this revelation, not shrink away from it!

3:45 on cherubs - just thought that idea of cherubs having mix of animal and human faces seems to correpond to the idea of some general possibility behind such living beings, like something closer to life itself.

Oh good, I'm actually glad there is finally something I don't agree with you on. With love and respect Brother Jonathan, God Bless 💛

Jonathan, one thing that has been pointed out to me about the Sabbath that is different from other commandments, is that it’s the only one of the Ten Commandments that is not explicitly reiterated in the New Testament. Perhaps that’s not so important, but it is something that gets mentioned as to why we are no longer bound by the Sabbath rules.

Excellent conversation. When are you going to be ordained?

im dying to see a symbolic interpretation of Avatar: the Last airbender. For what it's worth, it think it could be one of the most popular video's on your channel...

Thank you Jonathan, for your very interesting and insightful commentary. I have always believed that God reveals Himself to us in ways we can bear or comprehend. Abraham saw Him in the form of 3 men/angels and spoke to Him in the singular, and prostrated himself. Moses through the burning bush etc. The revelation of 'I AM' as Hypostatic, personal being as emphasised by St Sophrony of Essex. Of course the Great I AM becomes flesh, human nature has been sanctified to the full in Christ, this could be a very long comment, I will stop here.

It is the glory of god shines on the face of moise

Jonathan, this was really great - thank you. Have you considered the implications of all of this, the redeemed image of God that exists in the human person, on our current culture of pornography? When you were talking, I couldn't help thinking about how your approach to veneration of images might help guide people to the repugnance of the pernicious porn culture. Thoughts? Looking forward to seeing you at the Scala Foundation Spring Conference in April!

Does this red sweater mark the beginning of a Mr. Rogers arc? I wouldn’t mind it.

Yo that intro music is fire. Where that come from?

That got to the depths.

Godbless

Hi everyone, I've been trying to find the video from Jonathan where he talks about double inversion, can someone drop the link please, thanks in advance.

Where do I find these recent iconoclast videos Jonathan mentions in the intro?

Hey Jonathan. I’m just curious. What is the practical difference between veneration, and worship? What might one look for in a person’s actions where one might say “Ah yes, this person is currently venerating, not worshipping.”?

🍻🍻😎👍🏽 outstanding.

Isn't the earliest description in the Apocalypse / Revelation ?? (17:07)

"Icon" - Colossians 1:15

I have a question what's the difference between an ICON and a SCULPTURE? This is a question that I am struggling with... Because it was written in the ten commandments... (I commented before I watch the whole video.)

In my Catechism our Priest said that the sabbath was not done away with. That it is still to be seen holy in the Orthodox Church

Has anyone ordered one of JP's beautiful t shirts?? I want one so bad but had a poor quality screenprint from teespring for my Jordan Peterson shirt. After 1 wash the graphic was already crumbling and after about 3 washes the words are barely visible 😱

can you talk about the importance and symbolism of Soldiers Cast Lots for Jesus Clothing?

Thank you!

If you saw a picture of Jesus on a dart board would you throw a dart at it? If not then you venerate images.

First off, I think you would have been better served by responding to Truth Unites directly. You mix in the more common polemicists with a person who does actually take on the difference between veneration and worship and does so in about exactly the way you have. His case is more complex than what you give it credit for and it seems like a cop out to address the lesser arguments rather than the better ones. Next, your whole argument sounds correct in a lot of ways, but it doesn't seem to me at all that you have argued for the veneration of icons. Your incarnational argument most definitely appears to point to the image of God restored in man, and this is something that we can totally agree on. However, Paul uses your exact argument before the Athenians to say the opposite. Acts 17:29: "“Therefore since we are God’s offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone-an image made by human design and skill." The direct implication of Paul is that we are the image of God. He directly opposes this with any kind of image that can be made by human hands. Origen also tackled this saying that Christian statues and altars are those of virtues, things kept alive in the human person. Once again, the image of God has been restored in humanity and this means that we no longer worship images. The veneration vs worship argument becomes meaningless, at this point. We do not require images of any kind because the image of God has been restored in us. The NT also says that we bear the name of Christ. Once again, this is an explicit argument in favor of revering the human person as being the restored image of God. Moreover, the writer of Hebrews talks directly about the veils and how, as opposed to Moses, our faces are unveiled, we have gone past the veils of the temple to the holy of holies, we can approach God without the need of any other mediator but Christ. Since God has become incarnate and we bear His name and His image, we do not need any intermediaries. The writer of Hebrews is quite clear about how this movement you have tracked through scripture is about God's presence moving out from the few, out from behind closed doors, beyond the need of mediation, for Christ has satisfied all those needs. So this very argument demolishes any kind of cultic use of images and the veneration of Saints as special unique mediators entirely. Yes, according to 1 John, Christians can mediate for each other but these are common believers looking out for each other's spiritual well-being. There is no sense that the blessing of even an apostle would be more effective, otherwise, surely John would have advised these Christians to come seek his mediation rather than rely on the mediation of each other. I'm a fan of your videos and I consider you and all the Orthodox brothers and sisters in Christ. I think the best thing that has happened because of this is that the traditions are talking to each other. I hope you will see that Protestants have reasonable objections to this practice or at least you can see where we are coming from.

Woah

The truth remain: Veneration of image is a sin.

It's too bad livechats end up having so many trolls. 🙄

☦

I’m not an Orthodox Christian, however I want to become one. And I was wondering if anyone else has noticed a LARGE trend of Orthodoxy presumably everywhere. It feels like something is moving within all humanity gathering us for something to come.

They remind us of the like of biblical figures and saints

I have been convinced after all the arguments for using images, and veneration images of God. I still don’t understand praying through saints and Mary. That is something I don’t see any good explanations for.

Hi Jonathan. God's explanation of the second commandment in Exodus 20:4 is that God is jealous of the images. I was hoping to see you speak more on that part of the commandment, since it's confusing to me that God would be jealous of such an image. Why might that be?

Virtually all Christians worship alongside human depictions of Christ. In that sense it's unfortunate to see this controversy being stirred between denominations. It's a difference in degree, not in kind.

Wait do we venerate the images? And all this time I thought we venerated the saints. Council of Trent: "we kiss, and before which we uncover the head, and prostrate ourselves, we adore Christ; and we venerate the saints, whose similitude they bear"

Well that’s a thousand years debate. Protestants will never cave to icons but we respect our brothers 🙏